Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[RWB]

Is there any specific reason Mii mains should get special treatment? Why can't everyone get customs?

Mii mains have already gotten negative special treatment. A good chunk of tournaments banned Miis entirely for a long time.

Just saying.

 

[Divemissile]

Mii mains have already gotten negative special treatment. A good chunk of tournaments banned Miis entirely for a long time.

Just saying.

That's not an excuse to get special treatment for Mii mains.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Is there any specific reason Mii mains should get special treatment? Why can't everyone get customs?

Because Miis are designed around their customs.

Everyone else aside from maybe Palutena isn't.

 

[Ghostbone]

Is there any specific reason Mii mains should get special treatment? Why can't everyone get customs?

It's not special treatment when they're the only ones who can use their alternate specials with customs off.

/it's exactly like saying Peach and Diddy get special treatment for being able to use items.

 

[Divemissile]

It's not special treatment when they're the only ones who can use their alternate specials with customs off.

/it's exactly like saying Peach and Diddy get special treatment for being able to use items.

Those things are absolutely nothing alike. It's not like Peach or Diddy can spawn any item they want.

 

[Ghostbone]

Those things are absolutely nothing alike. It's not like Peach or Diddy can spawn any item they want.

.....And miis can't use any special they like, only the ones assigned to their character?

Surely that's not what you meant to argue though.

 

[Dooms]

Those things are absolutely nothing alike. It's not like Peach or Diddy can spawn any item they want.

#poorlogicboyz

It's a gimmick Mii Fighters have. They're not getting special treatment. They're getting access to what they're balanced around and what they're meant to use in the custom off environment. Just like how Diddy is supposed to have access to his banana. How Peach can pull swords, saturn, and bomb. How Rosalina can use Luma.

They're not supposed to be forced into 1111. They're supposed to be turned off or on. It's a really simple concept that people fail to understand lmao. If you're going to limit them to 1111, just turn them off (unless you're a TO that "wants to be fair to mii mains" [AKA you're a garbage TO] in which case feel free to limit them to 1111). Literally no reason to keep them on if you're going to ban 90% of the character anyways.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Just as a very minor correction, I don't think Peach can pull beam swords in Smash 4? Previous games yes, but not here?

That said, I suspect we have stumbled onto a very amusing line of thought in justifying open Mii move selection. Thanks, Divemissile.

So at this point, have we had any luck just contacting TOs directly with things like this thread, my open letter of resources and explanations to help them implement Miis at their events, and so on? What about Anther of SmashLadder? It's clear at this point there is very real public support and players will have their back if they open up Mii freedom in their tournaments. It looks as though those complaining hard enough to get 1111 instituted when we previously had more freedom are now just a very noisy minority?

 

[Illuminose]

Just as a very minor correction, I don't think Peach can pull beam swords in Smash 4? Previous games yes, but not here?

That said, I suspect we have stumbled onto a very amusing line of thought in justifying open Mii move selection. Thanks, Divemissile.

So at this point, have we had any luck just contacting TOs directly with things like this thread, my open letter of resources and explanations to help them implement Miis at their events, and so on? What about Anther of SmashLadder? It's clear at this point there is very real public support and players will have their back if they open up Mii freedom in their tournaments. It looks as though those complaining hard enough to get 1111 instituted when we previously had more freedom are now just a very noisy minority?

I'd be wary of using the bubble that is Smashboards as a gauge of overall support. Like, not even trying to be annoying/pessimistic -- it's actually just misleading to take things here as an actual quality gauge of public opinion.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

No, I'm taking that in the spirit it's intended. That's an interesting thing to keep in mind. Thank you for bringing it up. Nonetheless, some kind of dialogue should be opened up with TOs. We've talked this through, we have logistical aids in place to make sure their events don't run over time, I think we can answer most of their concerns. We should start approaching them directly and get them involved in this process.

 

[⑨ball]

It's not special treatment when they're the only ones who can use their alternate specials with customs off.

/it's exactly like saying Peach and Diddy get special treatment for being able to use items.

We just went over this on literally the last page. They're not comparable.

Items are banned primarily to remove random spawns.

Customs are banned primarily because of preference.

How is it not special treatment to say no one can use their alternate specials except for these characters?

 

[Ghostbone]

We just went over this on literally the last page. They're not comparable.

Items are banned primarily to remove random spawns.

Customs are banned primarily because of preference.

How is it not special treatment to say no one can use their alternate specials except for these characters?

Well why aren't turnips/G&W side b banned because of randomness?

It's not special treatment because the game itself treats them differently.
That's like complaining it's special treatment that ganon wins off ganon-cide but bowser doesn't. That's just because the game gives Ganon the victory but not bowser.

You say they're not comparable, to me it's a direct comparison that we are more lenient for character's options that they were designed around (turnips at least if the problem is randomness) despite banning them normally. Miis were designed around their alternate special and each special is balanced individually. Hell, the tourney mode for the game has miis and custom moves as a separate toggle. It's "special treatment" because it's what's special about the character, like Peach's float, or transforming characters in previous games, or little mac's super armour on all his attacks, or Ryu having twice the moves of everyone else.

 

[⑨ball]

Well why aren't turnips/G&W side b banned because of randomness?

It's not special treatment because the game itself treats them differently.
That's like complaining it's special treatment that ganon wins off ganon-cide but bowser doesn't. That's just because the game gives Ganon the victory but not bowser.

You say they're not comparable, to me it's a direct comparison that we are more lenient for character's options that they were designed around (turnips at least if the problem is randomness) despite banning them normally. Miis were designed around their alternate special and each special is balanced individually. Hell, the tourney mode for the game has miis and custom moves as a separate toggle. It's "special treatment" because it's what's special about the character, like Peach's float, or transforming characters in previous games, or little mac's super armour on all his attacks, or Ryu having twice the moves of everyone else.

Most justification for items turned off comes down to inconsistent risk/reward. It can certainly be argued that other random attributes in the competitive scene have a skewed risk/reward but in the end it'll likely come down to being influenced more by preference as is most of our ruleset.

It's not the game that's banning customs, it's our own/the TO's ruleset.
It would actually be like complaining why Bowsercide wins even if the results screen shows otherwise, when Kirbycide loses or is forced to tie break. Your example is not affected by any rules we have in place.

No one can really say for sure whether Miis were designed around their specials or not, it's not an argument exclusive to them and it wouldn't matter one way or the other. No one cares about what tourney mode does. It's only special treatment when there is no legitimate reason to exclude them from the ban.

To flip the problem around, arguing for mii customs in a non custom metagame is the equivalent of arguing everyone elses customs should be banned but theirs. That's what it comes down to. I've said it before but if the issue with the customs ban is logistics(which it isn't 9/10 thanks to the CMP, QR Codes, and other easy alternatives) then Palutena should also be free to use customs whenever. If the problem is preference (which it very likely is based on reactions to customs Mii and otherwise) then there is no reason why Miis should be exempt from the ban.

 

[Ghostbone]

From an objective standpoint they're different because the game treats them differently (customs switch and tourney mode).

If it comes down to preference then any rule is justified depending on how much support it has. I'm arguing why we should prefer one rule to another. I understand that ultimately all tournament rules come down to player preference, it's just about convincing people that banning mii's customs is unjustified precisely because they're treated differently by the game and are balanced individually, plus the character is designed around it the same way other characters are designed around their unique traits.

Miis aren't broken, and they deserve to have the options that are given to them by the game in the settings we use (customs off), so I essentially just implore people to recognize that and support their legality.

 

[⑨ball]

I don't think anyone can argue that the game treats them differently without using some ludicrous example like event mode. If the banning of customs was actually due to how the game treats them things might have developed much differently.

While I don't think it matters in this context, I'm not sold on the idea that Miis alone were designed around the idea that they'd have customs available to them.I'm aware they function better with customs and the argument can be made(just as it can for many characters), but it doesn't make sense to build weaknesses and strengths around mights and ifs because you can never account for being too strong or too weak in an area based on combinations given. The best one can do from a design standpoint is to build a solid base and then design weaknesses and strengths into alternates(although our idea of strengths and weaknesses may differ from a designers).

If it hasn't been made clear already, I don't think Miis are broken either. I don't think any customs are. I personally enjoy Mii Gunner, and while I can understand concerns for tiny brawler I personally think it's too soon to call for bans on him as we had the best Mii Brawler active at EVO using the tiny incarnation and he didn't even crack top 8.

[...] they deserve to have the options that are given to them by the game in the settings we use (customs off).

This mindset is pretty much the only thing I've ever had any issue with. If we both understand that customs are banned due to preference, what exactly do miis have that make them more deserving than any other character?

What exactly would you say to a player like @ TheReflexWonder if you were a TO that had customs banned for everyone but miis?

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't think anyone can argue that the game treats them differently without using some ludicrous example like event mode. If the banning of customs was actually due to how the game treats them things might have developed much differently.

I mean, you have to be blatantly ignoring that you can use miis with customs turned off and that in tourney mode miis are a separate toggle to customs to think that the game doesn't treat them differently.
(Edit: Wait no i'm pretty sure I misunderstood you and you were agreeing with me, my bad)

While I don't think it matters in this context, I'm not sold on the idea that Miis alone were designed around the idea that they'd have customs available to them.I'm aware they function better with customs and the argument can be made(just as it can for many characters), but it doesn't make sense to build weaknesses and strengths around mights and ifs because you can never account for being too strong or too weak in an area based on combinations given. The best one can do from a design standpoint is to build a solid base and then design weaknesses and strengths into alternates(although our idea of strengths and weaknesses may differ from a designers).

To my knowledge, no character has had their custom specials patched, except when the default version has also been patched. (sonic burning spin dash being the exception?, I've heard that Dragon rush was nerfed but I'm pretty sure that was the same patch that flare blitz was also nerfed) When luigi has fireball cooldown increased, that also applies to ice ball and whatever the other one is. The angle for both thunderjolt and thunder wave were changed this patch. But mii specials have been patched individually. I think that's pretty convincing that they were designed around them.

If it hasn't been made clear already, I don't think Miis are broken either. I don't think any customs are. I personally enjoy Mii Gunner, and while I can understand concerns for tiny brawler I personally think it's too soon to call for bans on him as we had the best Mii Brawler active at EVO using the tiny incarnation and he didn't even crack top 8.


This mindset is pretty much the only thing I've ever had any issue with. If we both understand that customs are banned due to preference, what exactly do miis have that make them more deserving than any other character?

What exactly would you say to a player like @ TheReflexWonder if you were a TO that had customs banned for everyone but miis?

Miis deserve it more than any other character because they game lets them use them. Other character's might not see it as "fair" but what does that even mean really. Is it fair that pokemon trainer is 3 characters in one in brawl? Banning due to preference is silly, at least compared to using an ingame toggle. Customs are generally turned off for logistical and balance issues. When we turn customs off miis are still allowed so we have to make extra rules to govern them. Rulesets should strive for simplicity so having a bunch of extra clauses for miis is silly unless they're justified by uncompetitiveness or balance issues.

I would say to the player that precisely because the game treats them differently is why I'm treating them differently. I want a simple ruleset, and simply having customs set to off implies that miis are still completely usable.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Miis deserve it more than any other character because they game lets them use them. Other character's might not see it as "fair" but what does that even mean really. Is it fair that pokemon trainer is 3 characters in one in brawl? Banning due to preference is silly, at least compared to using an ingame toggle. Customs are generally turned off for logistical and balance issues. When we turn customs off miis are still allowed so we have to make extra rules to govern them. Rulesets should strive for simplicity so having a bunch of extra clauses for miis is silly unless they're justified by uncompetitiveness or balance issues.

I would say to the player that precisely because the game treats them differently is why I'm treating them differently. I want a simple ruleset, and simply having customs set to off implies that miis are still completely usable.

"Even though the set-up is exactly the same, it has the same effects on the metagame, and I like the effects enough to apply them in some capacity, we won't do that because you have to press an extra button and Sakurai wanted it that way."

And then I couldn't roll my eyes any harder.

Miis are already at our complete mercy because they do not exist in game until you create them. One could make an argument about height/weight being the equivalent of built-in equipment, or how set-up and variation is too much to put up with, but people are stuck on a button that adds the same extra options and depth to other characters, and they'd rather confine that to a small handful of characters. Yeah, not biased at all. We make rules to improve the game, and since Miis -require- a set of extra rules because of how they don't exist initially (and they would even if their custom specials didn't work as they do), it makes perfect sense to have them fit within the same context as everyone else. Everything in question happens outside of the match, so the argument of "they just have them" in the same way that Pokémon Trainer just has three individual movesets doesn't fit for me.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't understand your argument.
You're saying because we make miis that we can fairly arbitrarily restrict them in any way we want? I'd say you either have miis legal in entirety or you ban them entirely. Imo both rules are fine, anything inbetween is convoluted. (and i obviously prefer the former)

It's not about what Sakurai wants either, it's about consistency in our ruleset. There's no inconsistency between allowing miis and turning customs off, and customs on opens up a whole new bag of worms in terms of logistics and balance.

Furthermore, as has been made abundantly clear in this thread, this argument is separate from the customs argument. Whether or not we support customs on/off doesn't change whether miis should be legal with them off. Sabotaging miis as some protest against the ruleset isn't competitive.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The question of whether or not to use Mii custom moves and whether or not to use custom moves in general is functionally the exact same thing in matches; people cling to a button that has literally no bearing on how the game would be played under standard custom rules. There is no "whole other can of worms." There is no significant balance issue that is not already at risk when you allow Miis use their custom specials. It has the same effect.

People keep arguing about "what the game says" when we already make subjective rules to override what the game says. Do you want to play out Sudden Death in tournament? I don't understand how you can find it so easy to adamantly defend the point that Miis get flexibility regardless of the Customs button when the effect that has on our ruleset is the exact same as turning on the Customs button. We make rules to benefit the competitive scene, not to blindly follow whatever the game sets for us.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sudden death is uncompetitive. We have to make clarifications in the ruleset to deal with situations where sudden death would normally come up.
Miis aren't uncompetitive, and a ruleset that simply says customs are set to off still has miis legal, and I'd have to wonder why we'd make extra rules to restrict them.
More rules leads to a higher barrier of entry for new players. Stage striking is already confusing enough lol.
(customs on also leads to a higher barrier of entry for players btw, while having miis legal doesn't since all their moves are available right away).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sudden death is uncompetitive. We have to make clarifications in the ruleset to deal with situations where sudden death would normally come up.
Miis aren't uncompetitive, and a ruleset that simply says customs are set to off still has miis legal, and I'd have to wonder why we'd make extra rules to restrict them.
More rules leads to a higher barrier of entry for new players. Stage striking is already confusing enough lol.
(customs on also leads to a higher barrier of entry for players btw, while having miis legal doesn't since all their moves are available right away).

Time matches aren't uncompetitive, either, but we still change that to make it more enjoyable/entertaining across the board.

Nobody here cares what the rules say. Arguing about how it changes the game is much more fruitful, and if the answer for Miis is "the same way that customs would change the game," then allowing everyone's customs should be just as easy. There aren't any more rules to apply other than "we have custom moves," and extra rules already have to be applied for Miis regardless (height/weight, customs on/off). You don't seem to care about extra rules unless it benefits your way of thinking.

Palutena has her customs available from the start (they're showcased heavily in her release trailer). No sympathy for her? Also, a bunch of characters and stages aren't available from the start. Some people may not have Mewtwo or Duck Hunt on their Wii Us, but we still allow them in tournament.

 

[Ghostbone]

Time vs stock is complete preference based, and either way you're "banning" one of the options, the ruleset isn't simpler either way, I don't see how it's at all comparable. (stock is probably more competitive than time since technically there are two win conditions rather than one, plus it's just liked far more by basically everyone that's ever played smash ever)

Whatever rules you want to apply that make sense in your head, you still have to convert them to game terms for the ruleset to make sense. And clearly miis are treated differently from what you consider customs by the game, so the ruleset will end up more convoluted. The simplest ruleset in this sense is either "customs set to on" or "customs set to off". Allowing Palutena to use her customs requires a new clause specifically for her, which is unfair (though about as unfair as the suicide clause which is way too common >.>). Miis don't require a separate clause. Again, it seems like you just want to sabotage mii viability because you're unhappy with customs being turned off.

And lmao at comparing unlocking stages or characters to custom moves. The grind is very clearly different.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You have to make sacrifices for competitive play, both in time and effort. Not everyone is cut out for it, I suppose, just like not everyone is cut out for practicing specific situations and combos for hours on end.

I'm done here if all you have to say is "but the current ruleset."

 

[Ghostbone]

Playing the game for a day and easily unlocking every character/stage is pretty different to playing for solo modes for a month, wasting time trying to unlock custom moves and still getting unlucky and not getting them, when you could just be playing wifi/local play vs real people and improving.

Saying you expect people who want to enter tournaments to grind for all the custom moves ostracizes so many players I can't believe you actually think that way. Do you really want to make this game extremely hard to get into and limit your tournament attendance that much?

 

[2ndComing]

Good Lord Reflex

Its kind of ironic considering you play Pokémon Trainer in Brawl correct? This is under a different circumstance however having the ability to use what your mains uses seems like a fair option don't you think?

Legalizing the Mii sets hurts no one except the people who don't want to learn the match-ups.

I don't see why we are wasting our time on this.

 

[Auramaniji]

"Even though the set-up is exactly the same, it has the same effects on the metagame, and I like the effects enough to apply them in some capacity, we won't do that because you have to press an extra button and Sakurai wanted it that way."

And then I couldn't roll my eyes any harder.

Miis are already at our complete mercy because they do not exist in game until you create them. One could make an argument about height/weight being the equivalent of built-in equipment, or how set-up and variation is too much to put up with, but people are stuck on a button that adds the same extra options and depth to other characters, and they'd rather confine that to a small handful of characters. Yeah, not biased at all. We make rules to improve the game, and since Miis -require- a set of extra rules because of how they don't exist initially (and they would even if their custom specials didn't work as they do), it makes perfect sense to have them fit within the same context as everyone else. Everything in question happens outside of the match, so the argument of "they just have them" in the same way that Pokémon Trainer just has three individual movesets doesn't fit for me.

You were the most inspirational Pokemon trainers I have seen play brawl, and know you're saying that having three individual move sets doesn't fit for you? I agree that there "just to have them" is flawed to an extent, but using Pokemon Trainer to as a point is like saying having three different move sets in battle is fair compared to one constant move set per tournament set.

That's fair enough.

Zarrotsu said it best about height and weight:

If anyone argues people playing weird Mii sizes, what's really the worst that could happen? The Mii player moves slower than intended and has more landing lag than intended, but launches equally as far from either party? And in exchange does about +0.3% damage on everything?

Lastly, who makes rules to improve the game?
Who are you referring to?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pokémon Trainer's switching mechanic is unavoidable in Brawl. It is comparable to this scenario:

There is an option to do the equivalent of All-Star Vs. (in Project M, you can pick individual characters for each stock with this option on). Pokémon Trainer is a character, but before PT becomes available at the character select screen, you have to set whether or not the "switch on KO" mechanic were applied to the character.

If that were the case, I would be all for applying it to everyone (assuming there's competitive merit to do so), because as long as we're changing things to add competitive merit, we should take it to its logical end. If there's no competitive merit to do so for everyone, then there's no reason to give it to PT, either.

As an aside, PT players wouldn't -want- to switch if they could help it. If Ivysaur were the best pick in a matchup, I'd rather have all my stocks played as Ivysaur than be forced to switch.

AS IT TURNS OUT, when Brawl modding became more commonplace, there was some talk about allowing individual PT Pokémon as characters in this way, which was easily done by adding three extra slots to the character select screen, but it was shot down because people decided that PT shouldn't get special treatment, inside or outside of gameplay, just because they're different. Nobody complained because of the (very simple/seamless) modding involved, and nobody complained about extra rules. Regardless of how the game separates custom moves, it's the same scenario here as what people are asking for with Miis, as far as I'm concerned.

The people that make the rules are TOs who want the game to run the way their community (or, sometimes, more selfishly, how the TOs themselves) want the game to be played.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Why should Mii mains should get special treatment?

I'm going to say some things. Perhaps disagreeable things.

A very large spectrum of the ruleset we currently run revolves around special treatments. When it gets right down to it, a large spectrum of characters in themselves are narrowed down to special treatments, customs on or off.

On the ruleset itself, when time runs out we forego sudden death and rely on the player who dealt more damage collectively before the timeout. Perhaps this is simply the best way to dissolve it, but it presents many special treatments for playstyles, and many special treatments for particular characters. We could, by all accounts, remove this entirely by simply setting the time to a larger or infinite value, but we choose not to. We choose to believe that the player who, by percent, dealt more damage, is by all accounts the superior player.

On the front of custom moves, many characters receive special treatment while others do not. Little Mac will never improve in a customs-on environment, while Donkey Kong and Villager dramatically improve because of single moves alone. This is severely unfair, but we choose to accept that players can simply not play as Little Mac in customs-on.

On characters themselves, we have some better than others. The developers of the game, while possibly unintentionally, gave special treatment to characters like Sheik and Rosalina, because they had visions of an agile ninja or a controllable shield. How is this fair to characters like Samus or Zelda, whom at their core are disastrously undesirable? The same developers dictated these visions of a floaty character like Samus because of the games she exists in. The same developers chose to reintroduce the same slow, meticulous character from Melee, instead of reinvent them at all.

On the players, why should some get special treatment before and between matches? We allow players to define custom names for themselves, and change the way they can control their character to differ from the norm. We reserve special treatment for some players to coach others between matches, and explain situations the engaging player may have been unaware of. These treatments reduce the concept of individual skill into a concept of social engagement. Those who failed to bring a friend to engage in discussion between rounds will fail, because of this special treatment. There are some, too, who are met with cheers and applause, while others are met with booing and insults.

And what of the people behind those players? Outside of simple fame or prosperity, there are many that suffer through stress and social anxieties, but receive good will and understanding. There are many who suffer disabilities, some worse than others, who receive special treatment with open arms and pleasant smiles. In many situations they may receive no such treatment; but in the realm of a collective community, they are welcomed and accepted. Many more, friendless, made to believe they belong.

But why do we give them special treatment? Why do we provide chemical medicine and therapy to those who need special treatment? Why do we provide handicap stalls, or specially dictated parking, to those who need these special treatments? Look to a public office, and observe the ramps beside the stairways. Look to the supermarkets, and observe the mechanical scooters with baskets. What do we, collectively, need them for? Why can't we have assistants or expensive devices for ourselves, en masse? Why do they have specialized parking, when many of us don't? What did they do to deserve this special treatment?


As people, we can perhaps never understand certain anxieties or disabilities. But we observe, and accept that they exist, and that they pose real problems for real people. We reflect these on ourselves as best we can, and acknowledge that we wouldn't want to be put through them. We decide, and believe, that nobody should ever feel inferior physically or psychologically. These things we could save for ourselves, we give to those less fortunate so that they can try to understand and accept what it feels like to be without their anxieties or disabilities.

As players, we should strive to do the same. To acknowledge there are those who play and learn differently, and want to feel accepted in spite of it. To look at what we have that others don't, and try to look for a way to share a compromise. There are maybe some things that are already far from desirable, and some things people exploit to their personal benefits. Are they the norm? Are they upheld as the most practical solutions and the best way to play the game?

Perhaps some characters are worse than others, but with patches they've improved. Perhaps Palutena was once absurdly unusable, but is that still the same as now? Is she the worst character in the game under customs off? Is her moveset completely unusable and detrimental to the rest of her character?

It's my belief that her design was intentional; to showcase the different ways customs could change an existing character for better or worse. And maybe there are several others who become much more engaging, such as Kirby or Wii Fit Trainer, without becoming absurd. But can any of these characters look at what they already have, and say sincerely that their character is undesirable without custom moves at all? Can any of their players say with certainty that they'd rather not play the game, and instead leave the community?

Miis having access to their custom moves can be seen as special treatment. There's no denying that. And if you have a problem with them receiving this special treatment, then that's your opinion and I'll respect it as best I can. But the players that demand this special treatment aren't demanding to be superior, they're demanding to be accepted. If you choose to believe special treatment should be condemned, then we will choose to find a hobby less ignorant.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But there's no reason to give them special treatment when it's pretty effortless to give the same possibilities to everyone else, since it is an option in the game (just like it is an option, rather than a requirement, for Miis, and how Miis being available is an option according to the game, too).

 

[Auramaniji]

But there's no reason to give them special treatment when it's pretty effortless to give the same possibilities to everyone else, since it is an option in the game (just like it is an option, rather than a requirement, for Miis, and how Miis being available is an option according to the game, too).

Why are you not accepting Mii? There's pages upon pages describing why Mii can't function in 1111, and although can toggle Mii off by not creating one there's still a handful of people that still use them if you don't.

It just seems like you're just avoiding Mii for no reason other than "It's not fair". In that case, we don't even have a singe advantage that you would find unfair.

But the players that demand this special treatment aren't demanding to be superior, they're demanding to be accepted.

Also, as much as wouldn't like to call you out on this forum reflex you don't even know what mii can do. Last time you thought that chakram for sword fighter has an infinite combo, but it turns out you can just walk away from it entirely.

Just like you said you were done on a previous chat with me and some others, you come back here for no reason other to complain and circle around your points over and over.

If you want to go ahead and PM me for this, I'm ready for you anytime of day if Mii is on the line.

 

[clydeaker]

I understand why Mii Fighter custom moves should be legal in a non custom tournament. But what about Custom Height and Weight?
Let me explain...

In a Customs-Off tournament there aren't any custom sets like at EVO. This is alright because every character including DLC fighters all have a default 1111 set... That is except for Mii Fighters. This means that in order for Mii Fighters to be legal in tournaments they need to have custom Mii Fighter sets made on or transfered to every Wii U in one way or another.

Custom Mii Fighters can easily be made using the default height and weight guest Miis, but if you want to make your own custom Mii Fighter with height and weight customizations you would ether need to make it on a 3DS (assuming you have one) to transfer to each Wii U, use a custom pre-made height and weight set with the correct custom moves made before the tournament like the EVO sets. or spend an extensive amount of time making it from scratch on each Wii U before each match (not recommended).

Making a default Height and Weight 1111 Mii for Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner is quite ease, but when you start to include custom Moves, Height, and Weight. let alone visual Mii Faces, head, color, outfits, and headgear customizations. Things can get a little messy.

Remember one of the main reasons people choose 'vanilla' Smash over Custom Smash is because its there by default. No custom move farming, transferring, taking time to make each set, taking time to customize and test each Mii etc. Because Mii Fighters don't have a default set you ether need to have a 3DS (this shouldn't be required for tournaments) or you need to use a custom pre-made set (most likely the EVO sets).
On a side note Custom Hight and Weight in addition to Custom Moves may offend other players due to the massive scale of mechanical customizations possible. Let alone visual customizations such as Mii faces, heads, colors, Outfits, and Headgear.

Just for fun lets break this down mathematically:

Spoiler

- On the Nintendo 3DS Mii Maker there are a total of 53 notches on both the height and weight sliders. this means there are a total of 2,809 possible individual customizations of height and weight possible on the Nintendo 3DS.

- On the Wii U Mii Maker there are a total of 128 notches on both the height and weight sliders. This means there are a total of 16,384 possible individual customizations of height and weight possible on the Wii U.

- Whether or not each customization of height and weight play differently in Smash I do not know.

- Due to the massive number of customizations lets break it down to only a total of 5 evenly spaced notches placed at every 1/4 point on the slider of both the Wii U and 3DS Height and Weight sliders. This means there are a total of 25 different average height and weight customizations possible.

- If we were to make all 25 Mii Height and Weight customizations on one Nintendo 3DS and transfer them to each Wii U ahead of time this would allow for every Mii Fighter main to easily pick their height and weight customization as easily as picking a Default guest mii would be. then all they have to do is name it (Preferably with something unique), pick the custom moves, and finally save it. This would only take about 2 minuets.

- Let's top this off with Mii fighter mains who have there own 3DS with them. they can upload their own personal custom Mii Fighter(s) w/ height and weight customizations very easily. this would only take about 1 minuet. probably just a fast as it would take to sync a Pro controller and customize a controller scheme. Also if you don't have a 3DS and your TO or a fellow player is nice enough you could easily make your Mii Fighter on their 3DS and use it transfer it for each match up quickly. you can even include custom Mii faces/ heads, cloths colors, outfits, and headgear without waisting any more tournament time.

- In addition to all of this lets include the already popular Mii Fighters EVO Custom Move sets. this means that they can pick a character just as fast as any other character without having to waist any time. Not even to change the custom button from off to on. and if they don't want to use these lame small height and they can easily transfer from a 3DS or make their own in only a few minuets.

- Finally to top it off in addition to the EVO sets, Include a Default Mii fighter set for each of the 3 Mii Fighters (preferably to look like the the release photos of them) with the default Height and Weight with the default 1111 Custom special moves set. and if thats not enough include the 2222 and 3333 sets as well. This will hopefully make it up to all of the people who think Mii Fighters should have a default set like everyone else.

- There are a total of 99 custom Miis that can be stored on each system. With the 49 total EVO sets along with the 9 default additional sets you will have 41 empty spots for any other custom Mii Fighter mains. other players are welcome to delete these if theres not enough room for their own personal Mii fighter sets.

- Compared to the normal or DLC character who has 1 possible custom set (the default 1111) along with the 8 (sometimes 16) possible alternate consumes. the Mii fighters custom height and weight (25 average placed combinations), 3 possible characters, 3 up specials, 3 side specials, 3 down specials, 3 neutral specials, theres a total of 2,025 possible mechanical combinations for each of the 3 Mii fighters compared to the 1 possible mechanical combination for each character with customs off.

- let alone the massive amount of visual customizations of Mii's face, head, hair, eye, eyebrow, nose, mouths, facial hair, facial additions, Clothes colors, Outfits, and headgear to get much more that 227,529 x 3 compared to the possible 8 (sometimes 16) possible alternate costumes for other characters.

In conclusion Mii Fighters with Customized Special Moves, Height, and Weight are very much possible.

My personal opinion:

Spoiler

Just like how Custom moves were very much possible at EVO, Custom Mii Fighters in a non-custom tournament are as well, however they completely contradict with major reasons Custom Moves are getting banned for. (excluding time custom farming) the massive amount of time, planning, and setting up for only 3 characters is reasonable. Although we love the idea of Mii fighter being legal in non custom tournaments, Many people fell for the future of Smash 4 Mii fighters would be better off with customs on. but if they were to be legal in a non custom tournament TO's would say there customs would be better off dumbed down to only a few default and popular sets (yes with some custom sets), but with less possible customizations for height and weight for each Mii Fighter character, or off like in For Glory mode.

 

[Sodo]

So it's become clear that the main issue here is that people think Miis get special treatment.

Do you know what would alleviate these problems? Turning customs on.

It's been fun reading some of these discussions but it's painstakingly obvious that none of this is going to go anywhere. Enjoy your circular arguments.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I would actually be okay with Customs On. There are a few unbalanced moves in Customs environment that probably deserve to be banned, but this is a small price to pay for giving so many other characters more viable options. I just feel Customs On is a separate argument from the Miis.

And sure, I suppose it's 'special treatment.' We don't go telling Peach players they can't use any Mr. Saturns they manage to spawn, though. We could. We could tell them "That's an Item, items are banned in tournament play, throw that thing off the side of the stage immediately or you're disqualified!" But no, we let her have the Mr. Saturn because it's pretty intuitive to game flow to allow it and nothing is hurt by letting Peach have her special, built-in exemption to our rules.

Rightly so.

Same deal with the Miis. This 'special treatment' makes three more characters viable for play, when 1111 leaves them genuinely incoherent. Design-level incoherent. Less coherent than Samus or Zelda or anyone else, who at least have clear game plans on how they're supposed to win. Letting them have what they're supposed to makes our playable roster larger without hurting anything, and I cannot imagine why anyone is against allowing more fun.

 

[smashbro29]

Some Novel by This Guy

Did you just liken actual disabilities people have to custom moves? Jeez man, gain some perspective. People's lives aren't some game a small subset of people are trying to bend one way at small gatherings.

 

[Splebel]

To throw my two cents in on this circular debate. The issue that TheReflexWonder is saying that the customs button does not dictate what is and isn't allowed in a customs-off tournament. Although the name does imply that anything that's valid under the customs-off option should be allowed. He's saying that if Mii's that can have all their options why can't Palutena, another character that has all of her options available from the start be excluded. This does make sense because she has all the options a Mii character does on start up. There also really isn't a default mii except for the basic one that is generated when making a mii but it could have every feature randomly selected and there would still be people saying what constitutes as a "default" mii.

Now the mii fighter as a character doesn't exist in game (not counting fight mii team) until the player makes one. The features for this mii fighter could be randomized also but because there has to be a 1,2,3 choice for each character people would still say that there is a default Mii fighter.

The point being is this. Palutena is an implemented character with an established move set that is also meant to showcase the custom move set by her varied one. Mii Characters on the other hand do not have a starting set. They were not designed to just be created just like Miis are not meant to just be created. Mii Fighter are in essence a custom characters. This means they should either not be restricted in customs-off tournaments or banned outright. Restricting them is like playing a customized role playing game and only being stuck with what the game constitutes as default.

In short, there is no default Mii.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Restricting them is like playing a customized role playing game and only being stuck with what the game constitutes as default.

Are you kidding? I love playing the...

*opens up DnD 4e table of contents, and picks the first one alphabetically*

...Ardent.



(The ****'s an Ardent?)

 

[Splebel]

I don't know what an Ardent is either but that Ardent would also have only the default stats. (If there are any I don't play DnD)

 

[san.]

No matter the miis' sizes, they roughly have the same combo physics. On shield, attacks differ by 1-4 frame advantage at most. Startup of all attacks are the same. Specials are all the same outside of range. The only things that the opponent needs to react to are the range and speed differences.

 

[Divemissile]

I still haven't gotten a good answer for why miis should get special treatment. Just because they are a different type of character doesn't mean they should get the advantage of customs. Them being able to use customs with customs off is still a bad excuse. The moves are still customs.

 

[Ghostbone]

What you consider a good answer is different to what other people consider a good answer.

You can dismiss everything by saying it's a bad excuse but without actually explaining why there's no point debating you.