Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[CursedJay]

It's not arbitrary. I've explained my definition several times. Scroll up if you want to read it again.


See the above.

Please quote yourself. You have been going in circles for an hour and I cannot be bothered to chisel through the same argument over and over again.

 

[Nysyr]

I literally have no idea why this is still an argument. This should be the only deciding factor:

And suprise suprise, Mii's can still use their alternate specials.

 

[Ghostbone]

I've argued that the definition I've proposed is more justifiable than yours. Being able to select DK with a 2311 moveset does not properly define what custom is. You can reduce it further than that. What about 2311 DK makes it custom. It's the MOVES that make a character custom as opposed to the default. When we're talking about default and custom, we're talking about the MOVES. I don't care at all what the labels say. We know what a custom move is and calling it not a custom because you don't have to press the custom button to select it is playing with words in my opinion. (inb4 just your opinion)

Lmao at telling us we're playing with words.

We're not playing with words, we're just going by what the game allows by default, you're the one twisting the words to come up with something else.
If you disagree, please look at the post directly above.

 

[GwJ]

Everyone else: Yo GwJ, here's a bunch of reasons we should use the game's definition, and that your definition is less competitive.
GwJ: Nu-uh my definition is fine.


GwJ: My arbitrary definition is still better guys despite the fact that it has no competitive merit.



GwJ: lets restate my arbitrary definition incase anyone forgot.


GwJ: Lets use my definition again, which still hasn't been justified.

Please, actually justify your definition.
If it's more competitive, please explain how mii's specials that are allowed by default make the game uncompetitive in some way. But if i remember correctly, you already admitted that they're not uncompetitive.


GwJ: It's not arbitrary because I say it's not, I'm going to ignore everyone elses arguments about why it's arbitrary, the primary one being that it's not the game's definition.'

Your argument is so ridiculously circular.
It boils down to, "miis have custom moves because I define them as customs. Since I define them as customs they are customs, and customs should be banned."

Forgive me for using a definition I believe to be correct. Miis have custom moves because under the definition I believe to be the best definition of what makes a custom character custom, a non-1111 moveset is custom.

There's nothing robust about "It's default because 1 comes before 2 and 3 and those are the only numbers here". The only thing supporting "default specials" as a concept is that when customs are off, all characters except for the Mii Fighters, have only 4 usable specials. It just so happens that those specials are also the same as the #1 special for all those characters.
None of this applies to the Mii Fighters because all their specials are available at all times. Default in this sense is whatever one decides. This reasoning is fully backed by the game engine. Yours is circumstantial, and I'm not seeing your proof to support it that mine didn't refute.

I never said 1 is default because it comes before 2 and 3. 1 is default because the initial value for a move is 1. That's what default means. When we're talking about a custom move, we're talking about a non-default (non-1) move.

Well, I and many others don't think that way. So I believe there should be some sort of way to actually vote on such a matter. Regardless of how it's done. It doesn't matter who you are, you can't justify what is right or wrong alone.

Also, why are you against customs exactly?

I believe my argument to be justified and that is why I am stating it and defending it. Also, it does not matter why I am against customs. That is not the purpose of this discussion and my hands can't type fast enough to argue TWO of these points at the same time.

 

[GwJ]

Please quote yourself. You have been going in circles for an hour and I cannot be bothered to chisel through the same argument over and over again.

I've defined customs several times recently, I do not need to requote myself.

I literally have no idea why this is still an argument. This should be the only deciding factor:

And suprise suprise, Mii's can still use their alternate specials.

alternate specials = custom moves

Lmao at telling us we're playing with words.

We're not playing with words, we're just going by what the game allows by default, you're the one twisting the words to come up with something else.
If you disagree, please look at the post directly above.

If we're going by what the game purely allows by default, Miis shouldn't even be in the game then. I'm not twisting words, I'm trying to DEFINE them.

Mods: Please forgive any double posting. I can't keep up with the thread if I edit my posts.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I believe my argument to be justified and that is why I am stating it and defending it. Also, it does not matter why I am against customs. That is not the purpose of this discussion and my hands can't type fast enough to argue TWO of these points at the same time.

Knowing why you are against customs is important because you say that none of them are an actual problem to the meta. If I were to guess, I would say logistical reasons? New players having trouble entering the tournament scene because of it?

If that was the case, Mii Fighters don't cause these problems, we have them from the start, even more of a reason to use them.

 

[Ghostbone]

Forgive me for using a definition I believe to be correct. Miis have custom moves because under the definition I believe to be the best definition of what makes a custom character custom, a non-1111 moveset is custom.

If you believe it to be correct then actually explain why it's more competitive than the game's definition.
Otherwise it's not only arbitrary (which we want to avoid as much as possible), it's also completely unjustified. (or just continue to ignore this over and over and over and over again).

I believe my argument to be justified and that is why I am stating it and defending it. Also, it does not matter why I am against customs. That is not the purpose of this discussion and my hands can't type fast enough to argue TWO of these points at the same time.

You're not defending it.
Saying you're defending it doesn't mean you're actually defending it.
Just as continually saying it's justified doesn't actually make it justified.
That's not how things work.

You're not making any arguments, you're just repeatedly telling us your definition is the right one while we point out the reasons it isn't, then you dismiss those reasons by again saying your definition is correct.

 

[Dooms]

I am against customs. Mii fighters with non-1111 movesets are customs, therefore I am against Mii fighters with non-1111 movesets.

That's about as clear as I can get.


I care about definitions, but definitions put forward by the game aren't always the ones that promote the best competitive environment. You as a smash player should understand that.

Custom isn't defined by 1111. Custom is defined by custom fighters being turned off.

If you want to have mii fighters playing their default, then ban them. In default, they don't exist. You have to create/customize a mii fighter for one to exist. They are a custom character. They are the only characters being specifically balanced around their customs.

1111 is the default for most characters. The game has proven this many times. Mii fighters don't have that default.

Forcing them into a ****ty unbalanced default just because everyone else's default they're balanced around is 1111 is just to's trying to say "we didn't ban your character, see???"

Either ban them or dont. Don't give us half assed "you get **** unbalanced moves while everyone else gets balanced around their default" because you're really Banning them by doing that.

The difference between non mii fighters being bad in default and miis being bad is that non mii fighters are getting balance changes. They're not getting extra kill power that they need thrown into a custom for a legit balance change. Swordfighter is, though. Guess that sucks for him...

It's pretty disappointing that the game's tournament feature can run better tournaments than our community can ruleset-wise. Guess it just sucks for mii fighter mains, though. Lmao

 

[GwJ]

Knowing why you are against customs is important because you say that none of them are an actual problem to the meta. If I were to guess, I would say logistical reasons? New players having trouble entering the tournament scene because of it?

If that was the case, Mii Fighters don't cause these problems, we have them from the start, even more of a reason to use them.

It has no impact on my argument and the thread so I will not bother stating it. If I get involved in a discussion about customs as a whole, I'll talk about it there.

 

[GwJ]

If you believe it to be correct then actually explain why it's more competitive than the game's definition.
Otherwise it's not only arbitrary (which we want to avoid as much as possible), it's also completely unjustified. (or just continue to ignore this over and over and over and over again).


You're not defending it.
Saying you're defending it doesn't mean you're actually defending it.
Just as continually saying it's justified doesn't actually make it justified.
That's not how things work.

Perhaps I should backtrack a little bit, because I think we're getting offtrack a little bit. It doesn't matter if something is competitive or not. We're trying to figure out if custom moves on a Mii should be considered the same as a custom move on any other character. I'm arguing for a definition that concludes that they should be treated equally regardless of competitiveness.

Custom isn't defined by 1111. Custom is defined by custom fighters being turned off.

If you want to have mii fighters playing their default, then ban them. In default, they don't exist. You have to create/customize a mii fighter for one to exist. They are a custom character. They are the only characters being specifically balanced around their customs.

1111 is the default for most characters. The game has proven this many times. Mii fighters don't have that default.

Forcing them into a ****ty unbalanced default just because everyone else's default they're balanced around is 1111 is just to's trying to say "we didn't ban your character, see???"

Either ban them or dont. Don't give us half ***** "you get **** unbalanced moves while everyone else gets balanced around their default" because you'really Banning them by doing that.

The difference between non mii fighters being bad in default and miis being bad is that non mii fighters are getting balance changes. They're not getting extra kill power that they need thrown into a custom for a legit balance change. Swordfighter is, though. Guess that sucks for them.

It's pretty disappointing that the game's tournament feature can run better tournaments than our community can ruleset-wise. Guess it just sucks for mii fighter mains, though. Lmao

1111 is the default for all characters, including Miis. If you create a Mii, 1111 is the set you start with. I also don't care if Mii fighters are stuck with a bad moveset. Many characters are stuck with a bad moveset and I'm not arguing to let them use customs either. I'm for banning customs, not characters. You can keep your Mii, but you have to use the same moveset as everyone else. I don't care if Miis are getting balance changes or not, it has no impact on my argument.

 

[-Xeroskia.]

I never said 1 is default because it comes before 2 and 3. 1 is default because the initial value for a move is 1. That's what default means. When we're talking about a custom move, we're talking about a non-default (non-1) move.

No. If we're talking about the competitive ruleset we have for a customs-off environment, a character's default moveset is first and foremost the moveset they have when custom moves are off. There is no way around it. If character movesets were randomized between all their custom moves every time they were selected when customs were set to off, we would have a pretty big problem and probably 2 initial solutions. Luck of the draw when you picked and work with the mystery box you were handed when going into a match, or looking through the list of custom moves and selecting ones that veteran characters had before and the rest of the cast (ie. newcomers) would be left to the fate of the community, but playing with customs set to on.

Even if you ignore my little analogy, I think it's pretty clear that the moves characters have when customs are off are related to being "default", but the only reason that it relates to the "1" in the custom menu is because most of them line up. Since it doesn't line up for the Miis, they are not "default" so "default" doesn't apply, only "1111" does. And since we treat "1111" as default for every other character, we cannot use "1111" to define the default specials for Miis as they do not have default specials by definition.

 

[Nysyr]

I've defined customs several times recently, I do not need to requote myself.



alternate specials = custom moves



If we're going by what the game purely allows by default, Miis shouldn't even be in the game then. I'm not twisting words, I'm trying to DEFINE them.

Lmfao you are something else, dude.

Each of these is considered a standard fighter. Might as well start calling colour swaps "character customization."

You are literally going by your own definition, not the games.

 

[CursedJay]

I've defined customs several times recently, I do not need to requote myself.

Oh, so we're playing circular logic now, huh?

Well, allow me to quote myself until you give me an actual response.

I'm not arguing your definition here is wrong. I am telling you that your simplification of the situation based on your personal stance on customs as a whole is blatantly ignorant. If you don't have any actual reason to keep these out, your opinion on the miis is based on absolute air.

Those who refuse to elaborate literally have nothing else to offer. You're beating a dead horse with me and I can play this game for as long as you can.

 

[GwJ]

No. If we're talking about the competitive ruleset we have for a customs-off environment, a character's default moveset is first and foremost the moveset they have when custom moves are off. There is no way around it. If character movesets were randomized between all their custom moves every time they were selected when customs were set to off, we would have a pretty big problem and probably 2 initial solutions. Luck of the draw when you picked and work with the mystery box you were handed when going into a match, or looking through the list of custom moves and selecting ones that veteran characters had before and the rest of the cast (ie. newcomers) would be left to the fate of the community, but playing with customs set to on.

Even if you ignore my little analogy, I think it's pretty clear that the moves characters have when customs are off are related to being "default", but the only reason that it relates to the "1" in the custom menu is because most of them line up. Since it doesn't line up for the Miis, they are not "default" so "default" doesn't apply, only "1111" does. And since we treat "1111" as default for every other character, we cannot use "1111" to define the default specials for Miis as they do not have default specials by definition.

And I've been arguing that being able to select a character with that toggle off does not properly define what a custom character is. We also actually do have a random customs button. You can only select it with customs on. Also, the default value of all specials on a freshly created Mii is 1.

Lmfao you are something else, dude.

Each of these is considered a standard fighter. Might as well start calling colour swaps "character customization."

You are literally going by your own definition, not the games.

I am against custom moves, not custom colors.

Oh, so we're playing circular logic now, huh?

Well, allow me to quote myself until you give me an actual response.

Allow me to ignore you then. Forgive me.

 

[-Xeroskia.]

And I've been arguing that being able to select a character with that toggle off does not properly define what a custom character is. We also actually do have a random customs button. You can only select it with customs on. Also, the default value of all specials on a freshly created Mii is 1.

If we're ignoring the custom moves toggle to define what is a custom move, I'm at a complete loss as to what to even respond with...

Edit: Oh wait. I do. That toggle only exists to turn off custom moves. That is all. It does nothing else. If that isn't enough for you, then you are ignoring a basis of the rules the game itself defines. Rules that we're basing a large portion of our arguments on. There's no point in continuing to try having a discussion about the contents of a game if you simply ignore the rules the game provides in favor of your own personal preferences..

 

[Nysyr]

LMAO.

From a guy that doesn't even realise you don't have to "hold B to go back" from the character selection screen to make a Mii.

You are literally spewing garbage at this point.

 

[Dooms]

Perhaps I should backtrack a little bit, because I think we're getting offtrack a little bit. It doesn't matter if something is competitive or not. We're trying to figure out if custom moves on a Mii should be considered the same as a custom move on any other character. I'm arguing for a definition that concludes that they should be treated equally regardless of competitiveness.



1111 is the default for all characters, including Miis. If you create a Mii, 1111 is the set you start with. I also don't care if Mii fighters are stuck with a bad moveset. Many characters are stuck with a bad moveset and I'm not arguing to let them use customs either. I'm for banning customs, not characters. You can keep your Mii, but you have to use the same moveset as everyone else. I don't care if Miis are getting balance changes or not, it has no impact on.

"I don't care what the default is. I say it's 1111!"

Holy **** why are we not just ignoring this guy? We should only be arguing with people that have anywhere near decent logic lmao.

 

[san.]

Miis aren't created until you confirm their special move choices and gear.

 

[CursedJay]

The point still stands. You have yet to elaborate. Simply providing a personal interpretation does not equate to reasoning in this situation. You are heavily generalizing with very little insight into why this set of customs should remain out of the game. You have yet to even explain why you're against customs in the first place.

 

[Nysyr]

Miis aren't created until you confirm their special move choices and gear.

Basically this. 3ds doesn't say accessing SD card until I've pressed start after selecting everything.

 

[GwJ]

If we're ignoring the custom moves toggle to define what is a custom move, I'm at a complete loss as to what to even respond with...

I've been arguing that the toggle doesn't define customs.

Miis aren't created until you confirm their special move choices and gear.

When you create a Mii (before you can use it I guess since you haven't pressed start to save), all specials are set to 1.

 

[Dooms]

Anyone arguing that the actual mii default is1111 instead of saying either "they're off/don't exist" or "they have access to all of their moves" really needs to reconsider their argument. It's as straight forward as that.

 

[GwJ]

The point still stands. You have yet to elaborate. Simply providing a personal interpretation does not equate to reasoning in this situation. You are heavily generalizing with very little insight into why this set of customs should remain out of the game. You have yet to even explain why you're against customs in the first place.

It doesn't matter why or even if customs should be in the game. I'm arguing that Mii customs are the same as all other customs.

 

[Nysyr]

I've been arguing that the toggle doesn't define customs.



When you create a Mii (before you can use it I guess since you haven't pressed start to save), all specials are set to 1.

And items are on by default when you start smash for the first time, what's that ****ing got to do with it.

"The game says"

And then you're like

"I'm arguing against the game"

LMFAOOOOOOO

 

[CursedJay]

The Mii has not officially become a selectable part of the game, however, until after creation.

Why am I even bothering? You're just stubborn and misinformed.

 

[GwJ]

And items are on by default when you start smash for the first time, what's that ****ing got to do with it.

Yeah and we banned them.

 

[GwJ]

The Mii has not officially become a selectable part of the game, however, until after creation.

Why am I even bothering? You're just stubborn and misinformed.

Sure, and some people argue that Miis shouldn't even be allowed in the first place. Thankfully, I'm not one of those people.

 

[-Xeroskia.]

I've been arguing that the toggle doesn't define customs.

And I'm saying that means nothing until you explain why and back it up with facts supported by the game that you are trying to define. Unless you are the game developer, manufacturer, distributer AND the tournament organizer for all tournaments held, and probably even if you were, your words are not law.

 

[Doruge]

Yeah and we banned them.

And why would we ban mii moves? Because they don't fit with GwJ's personal opinion on what's a custom and what isn't?

 

[GwJ]

And I'm saying that means nothing until you explain why and back it up with facts supported by the game that you are trying to define. Unless you're the game developer, manufacturer, distributer AND the tournament organizer for all tournaments held, your words are not law.

I never said my words were the law nor do they need to be taken as they law. They are my opinion and I stand by them. If you don't like my opinion, say why instead of saying they hold no weight because I'm not important enough to have an opinion.

 

[-Xeroskia.]

Yeah and we banned them.

This is no longer an argument because the information that Mii customs were avaiable in customs off was not known when the rules were put into place. I'll re-iterate my post from earlier related to this specific argument. Because that's what I like to do. Back up my arguments with facts.

There are no loopholes. There are no tricks or setups or fancy fingers. You can pick a Mii fighter, you can pick your specials, you can pick a tag, a stage, music or w/e else, and you can start the game when custom moves are selected to be off. Or every other rule in the competitive ruleset except "1111 only". A new player-made rule specific to Smash 4. A rule that we are now contesting due to not-so-new-but-kinda-new evidence.

 

[CursedJay]

It doesn't matter why or even if customs should be in the game. I'm arguing that Mii customs are the same as all other customs.

...This is literally an argument on whether altered Mii fighters should be allowed in non custom play, and you have clearly taken a stance on the issue.

I don't support the banning of Miis. I support the requirement that Miis are 1111 just like every other character. You can use a Mii, just use the same set every other character in the game has to use.

....I actually don'y know what to tell you. The holes in your logic are just opening up.

EDIT:

I never said my words were the law nor do they need to be taken as they law. They are my opinion and I stand by them. If you don't like my opinion, say why instead of saying they hold no weight because I'm not important enough to have an opinion.

When you are asked why and cannot provide any reasoning as to why, why should your opinion be taken seriously? If you feel that you don't need to defend yourself, why post your opinion in the first place?

 

[2ndComing]

It doesn't matter why or even if customs should be in the game. I'm arguing that Mii customs are the same as all other customs.

Why are you bunching them with traditional characters? The Miis are not traditional characters and shouldn't be treated as such obviously since the only thing that seems to be holding you back is that you treat their moves as customs.

I treat them as Alternate Special Moves instead of Custom Special Move Variation which is something like Mario's Fireball. However if we want to be selfish and push personal preference to limit characters and their abilities when that is how they are both designed and balanced then we might as well start banning moves.

Its not right to treat them like traditional characters when they are a special case and first for Smash Brothers.

 

[GwJ]

And why would we ban mii moves? Because they don't fit with GwJ's personal opinion on what's a custom and what isn't?

Assuming customs are banned, Custom Miis should be banned because any non-1111 moveset on any character should be considered a custom moveset. It's my personal opinion and I feel it's justified. Calling it an opinion doesn't discredit me.

Again, I'm not arguing to ban custom Miis. I'm arguing to consider them custom equally with other custom characters.

If customs are banned, custom Miis should be banned. If customs are not banned, custom Miis should not be banned.

 

[GwJ]

Why are you bunching them with traditional characters? The Miis are not traditional characters and shouldn't be treated as such obviously since the only thing that seems to be holding you back is that you treat their moves as customs.

I treat them as Alternate Special Moves instead of Custom Special Move Variation which is something like Mario's Fireball. However if we want to be selfish and push personal preference to limit characters and their abilities when that is how they are both designed and balanced then we might as well start banning moves.

Its not right to treat them like traditional characters when they are a special case and first for Smash Brothers.

"Alternate Special Moves instead of Custom Special Move Variation" That's just semantics. I don't care how different they are. They're different and should be treated as custom. Palutena has "Alternate Special Moves" and they're considered custom.

 

[-Xeroskia.]

I never said my words were the law nor do they need to be taken as they law. They are my opinion and I stand by them. If you don't like my opinion, say why instead of saying they hold no weight because I'm not important enough to have an opinion.

That's the thing. We're not supposed to be having a argument of opinions. We're supposed to be arguing facts as to why Mii fighter specials and custom moves are different. And you are not giving any substantial evidence to support that they are the same enough to be treated the same.

We're arguing that they are different enough to be subject to different rules and backing our arguments with factual difference from the game itself. This is the basis of the thread. You might as well be de-railing with your insistence on your personal opinion that is disrupting the main discussion.

 

[Nysyr]

"Alternate Special Moves instead of Custom Special Move Variation" That's just semantics. I don't care how different they are. They're different and should be treated as custom. Palutena has "Alternate Special Moves" and they're considered custom.

The entirety of your arguments on this so far is semantics.

And once again,

 

[Dooms]

Sure, and some people argue that Miis shouldn't even be allowed in the first place. Thankfully, I'm not one of those people.

You might as well be.

Creating a default specifically for mii's is banning them. Like, it's not a debate.

They're not the same as any other character. Saying that mii fighters are like any other character is nothing but ignorance.

The rule doesn't say "1111" . The rules say custom fighters are off. This isn't just the games default, this is what all of the rulesets say.

They just add another rule to limit mii fighters because they don't use or care about mii fighters.

I don't care about getting a response from you, because putting it bluntly your logic is garbage and you're literally saying "I'm going by what I'm saying, not what the rules and game says". You're a brick wall, and the only reason why I'm posting this is for people that think like you but aren't nearly as dense.

 

[CursedJay]

If customs are banned, custom Miis should be banned. If customs are not banned, custom Miis should not be banned.

Are you at least willing to admit that you understand the reason that this is a discussion is because they are enabled on the non custom character select screen and therefore hold some weight to an argument supporting them?

 

[Doruge]

Assuming customs are banned, Custom Miis should be banned because any non-1111 moveset on any character should be considered a custom moveset. It's my personal opinion and I feel it's justified. Calling it an opinion doesn't discredit me.

Assuming customs are banned, Sonic should be banned because any Sonic-based moveset on any character should be considered a custom moveset. It's my personal opinion and I feel it's justified.

^This is what you sound like to the rest of us.