Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[clydeaker]

Personally I think all custom moves and Mii Fighters should be allowed. (with equipment banned of course). But If I had to choose whether Mii Fighters should have customs allowed or not in a non custom tournament I would say not allowed. In the eyes of a non Mii main allowing customs to your opponent, but not to your yourself seems really unfair. It's like having your opponent choose any stage they like through out the entire tournament that can give them a high advantage, but you have no say in what stage they can or can't pick.

In the end I would have 2 specific rulesets:

#1 - For Glory ruleset:
- No custom moves allowed.
- No Mii fighters allowed.
- 2 Stock 6 Minuets.

#2 - Custom moves ruleset:
- Custom moves allowed
- Equipment banned.
- Mii Fighters allowed (custom height & weight allowed)
- If time permits unique Miis, headgear, and outfits are allowed.
- 2 stock 6 min. or 3 stock 8 min.

 

[John12346]

So let me get through the run-down of why Mii Fighters should be allowed to use their alternate Specials where no one else is allowed to in a Customs-Off environment:

1. The obvious one, when you're on the character selection screen, and Customizations are set to "Off," you can still choose any combination of Specials for Mii Fighters that you desire. This tells us that the developers do not see Mii Fighter alternate Specials as a "Customization" but rather something else entirely. In this respect, we're not being unfair to other characters by turning Customizations off and allowing Mii Fighters to choose their Special combinations because the Custom Specials of every fighter and alternate Specials of Mii Fighters are considered to be two completely different things entirely.

2. With the newly added online Tournament Modes, you have the option to toggle Customizations and Mii Fighters as you like. Choosing the settings "Off" and "On" respectively still allows people who choose Mii Fighters to access any combination of alternate Specials that they like. This menu setting is important, because it shows that the dev team does not see the presence of Mii Fighters as something that legitimately falls under the category of Customizations.

3. Counterpoint: The reason Mii Fighters are banned in For Glory probably isn't because the developers didn't think they were suitable for competition, but rather afraid people would anonymously abuse Hitler and penis faces when competing, for sure. Also, if Mii Fighters WERE allowed to compete on For Glory, I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that they'd still be allowed to use any alternate Specials that they desire.

4. In this latest update of Smash 4, version 1.1.0, not a single character had their Customs Specials adjusted directly(Pikachu's T-Wave infinite is patched out but only because of a change made to default T-Jolt). However, all three Mii Fighters had a good deal of their alternate Specials balanced, between 1, 2, AND 3, indicating that they were most certainly designed for competition, unlike everyone else's Custom Specials which are difficult to determine how competitive they actually were intended to be. Full 1.1.0 changelog can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/

5. Countries in Europe and Japan allow free customization of Specials for Mii Fighters in their Customs-Off tournaments(needs confirming but I know at least a good amount that do).

 

[Epok]

Another point it that the moves that are given to the miis are all very different. With Mario, all of his customs are altered versions of the same special ( regular fireball, fast fireball, big slow fireball). The Mii specials are not. The Mii swordsman, for his neutral b has:
Gale Strike: A tornado projectile with a wind box
Shiruken: a small fast projectile
Blurring Blade: a marth style chargred sword attack.

And as stated before these move are patched independently of each other. Whereas most normal character's special move get patched as a group.

 

[John12346]

Another point it that the moves that are given to the miis are all very different. With Mario, all of his customs are altered versions of the same special ( regular fireball, fast fireball, big slow fireball). The Mii specials are not.

I don't really see this as a 100% legitimate reason to allow Mii Fighters to use their Specials, mainly because that case applies in exactly the same way to Palutena. And... ideally, she still shouldn't be allowed to use them in a Customs-Off environment, primarily because she doesn't follow any of the criteria I laid out in my previous post, you feel me?

 

[Pegasus Knight]

But If I had to choose whether Mii Fighters should have customs allowed or not in a non custom tournament I would say not allowed. In the eyes of a non Mii main allowing customs to your opponent, but not to your yourself seems really unfair. It's like having your opponent choose any stage they like through out the entire tournament that can give them a high advantage, but you have no say in what stage they can or can't pick.

I'm not sure if designing tournament rules around my opponent's feelings is a great idea. Especially since my opponent's feelings currently are designing tournament rules and currently are taking fun away from me by all-but-banning characters I put in the time to learn.

If they have a problem with the Miis, that's a perception issue. They need to understand that 'pick your moves' is the entire point of, and unique ability of, the Miis. Just like how Rosalina's the only one who gets a puppet character. If we're going to strip away the Miis special feature, then I demand that Rosalina not be allowed to use Luma. Just straight up let me murder the puppet-character every time it spawns, then we retreat to safe positions and resume the match. Add an extra minute to the match clock to permit this adjustment.

This is of course an insane demand. I don't expect to get it. I don't want to get it, truth be told. I am trying to illustrate what people have done to three characters whose inclusion in their proper forms doesn't hurt the game. All in the name of a misunderstood idea of what 'fairness' ought to be in this case.

And in case anyone wonders, no, Palutena shouldn't get her custom specials in a 'no customs' environment. In her case they are custom specials. The game tells us this by forcing her onto 1111 if Customs is set to Off. I say this as a Palutena player. Palutena has a coherent gameplan on 1111. You might not find it a very exciting one, but it makes sense. It follows clear design, you have some idea of how Palutena is supposed to win. Brawler on 1111-only does not. Swordfighter on 1111 is basically ripping off Brawler's gimmick of over-emphasizing close range fighting. Gunner 1111 is the only one who maintains a game plan, but it's one that loses out on a lot of the trade-off decisions ("More recovery, or more kill power but less recovery?") Mii players are supposed to be making.

 

[JayWon]

I am pro Mii fighters all the way and most definitely on a Custom OFF environment customized Mii's should be allowed and I honestly see no major problems that overwhelm the benefits of having 3 more characters to play.

IT IS VERY UNFORTUNATE AND I HATE WHERE PALUTENA IS IN THIS WHOLE SITUATION.

I knoww. I KNOW!! Palutena is almost may be argued to be in similar category/situation as the Mii Fighters but ultimately Palutena needs "Customs ON" I KNOW that is problematic to make that exception. I KNOW it's a PAIN. I WANT Mii Fighters to be in! I KNOW this is asking too much BUT I CAN'T HELP WANTING PALUTENA TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS HER CUSTOMS TOO!


Let me try defending her real quick regardless of how effective it may or may not be:

Palutena's crappy normals were designed around Lightweight as the original foundation.
There is a reason why Palutena's normals are so terrible. There's a reason why her D-air (1 frame active tiny hitbox) is voted as Palutena's WORST move and that is saying a lot cuz you know her normals are already pretty bad. The reason why there's so much needless amounts of endlag / slow start up is because then that would make Lightweight way too ****ing good (there are already a lot of people complaining how broken Lightweight is. Now imagine Lightweight with Falcon's D-air. O.O)


But for whatever arbitrarily reason, Sakurai ultimately decided with our current 1111 Palutena as the "default" available for online. I understand why to a certain extent. I play quite a few For Fun matches with my 10 year old sister and I always laugh at the thought of 2322 Palutena being nuts in the For Fun environment. But then again not really because ZSS is "relatively" comparable in speed/jump height/mobility options with Lightweight Palutena, and Shulk's Jump/Speed Monado was allowed the green light as well.

But the main point is, Palutena's gimmick is her customizability. Just like the Mii's. Sakurai particularly gave Palutena special treatment encouraging us to access her customs right from the start. I don't want to go into paragraphs of why default Palutena sucks but I have to say Lightweight balances out Palutena's wayy too punishable moves. And to have this key essential core foundation Palutena was based on be replaced with her default absolute sh*t Counter... is absolute murder for her future. (Palutena's counters from frame 9-31 | FAF 75 | 1.3x damage [Ike's counter frame is 3 frames longer AND FAF is faster meaning Palutena is 19 frames more vulnerable than Ike's crappy counter).

Default Palutena can't have major buffs because that make Lightweight too good. But Lightweight can't be used online and can't be used unless Customs are On. Really just sucks. Ironic how Lightweight ultimately is the downfall of Palutena.

The most ideal would be if Sakurai changed her currently arbitrary Default 1111 to at least 1112. Seriously, **** her counter. It's terrible at doing it's extremely situational job.


Balance wise:
Yes, Lightweight is spectacular! Not only as a move, but for spectators and brings something completely unique to the competitive meta. Is it overpowered? That is impossible for you or me to objectively claim Lightweight is OP as fact. But I will say this. She receives more damage under Lightweight. Lightweight last for 10 seconds; try not to get grabbed for 10 seconds (especially around 45-55% for early downthrow n-air u-air, and again ~95%+ for practically guaranteed downthrow u-air kill (pretty much at the mercy of our reaction time and execution)). Then there is 5 seconds of half jump/speed. Then there is 10 second cooldown before she can use Lightweight again. However, yes, Lightweight is literally broken due to the platform glitch that allows Palutena to refresh her Lightweight infinitely. It's definitely fair to criticize Lightweight because of this infinite. Not much to say but If you are playing on a stage like Smashville, be wary of the platform location & punish her for trying to land on the platform. Easier said then done of course. I think Sakurai and his team are aware of the infinite Lightweight but I don't think they will patch it out unless Lightweight gets a big spotlight and becomes more of a mainstream issue.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Snip

Nobody is worried about Palutena's customs being too OP. Where I see the problem is like you explained earlier. It's problematic to allow it since it turns custom moves ON, and when they are ON, it allows other fighters to have the ability to pick their custom moves. This is the point where it becomes unfair if they can't but Palutena can.

If we were to allow Palutena to have her moves, it would destroy the entire argument Mii fighters have with the whole "the game allows it". That is what we're banking on here, and unfortunately Palu tries to kill it for us.

 

[JayWon]

Nobody is worried about Palutena's customs being too OP. Where I see the problem is like you explained earlier. It's problematic to allow it since it turns custom moves ON, and when they are ON, it allows other fighters to have the ability to pick their custom moves. This is the point where it becomes unfair if they can't but Palutena can.

If we were to allow Palutena to have her moves, it would destroy the entire argument Mii fighters have with the whole "the game allows it". That is what we're banking on here, and unfortunately Palu tries to kill it for us.

Oh god no. I really don't want anyone here to exclude Palutena in this argument because Palutena will kill the whole argument. I want Mii Fighters in for sure! They can already straight up be used with Customs OFF. Jesus christ people let them use their customs!

But yeah Palutena is just whole another topic (with relatable similarities). Mii Fighter's have the easier argument~ I'm hoping it's looking to be favorable for all the Mii advocates!

Palutena... D: I already know. Exceptions. I get it. But still, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Oh god no. I really don't want anyone here to exclude Palutena in this argument because Palutena will kill the whole argument. I want Mii Fighters in for sure! They can already straight up be used with Customs OFF. Jesus christ people let them use their customs!

But yeah Palutena is just whole another topic (with relatable similarities). Mii Fighter's have the easier argument~ I'm hoping it's looking to be favorable for all the Mii advocates!

Palutena... D: I already know. Exceptions. I get it. But still, that's all I'm saying.

Palutena just gets on my nerves a little bit because I had a good argument going for APEX 2015's ruleset, until a TO who was a Palutena main kicked the mii fighters out because it wasn't fair to Palutena, and if you turned custom moves on it became a slippery slope.

 

[CursedJay]

Ah, I voted wrong.

I'm an anti-customs guy for the time being, but I do have a soft spot for the Miis. The fact that they can be played without technically turning customs on is an acceptable loophole. They're way easier to control and obtain than the other custom moves, removing the issue of accessibility. They aren't "Jank" (I still don't understand that arguement); I can't really recall of any time that someone thought Mii fighters were broken. And most exciting, they still promote customization but on a much more controlled scale. Instead of diving headfirst into an overwhelming sea of customs, it allows us to adjust to the idea of customized fighters in a controlled ennvironment. Honestly, allowing Mii fighters for the time being can do nothing but help the custom argument in the long run.

Palutena on the other hand requires customs to be turned on, which /technically/ makes it a Custom tournament. It's also understandable that this could be considered an unfair advantage to Palutena, as she is the only normal character with customs available to her. This opens the door to a discussion on relative viability. In truth, any character can make the argument that they are more viable with customs than without (and while I'm sorry to use a slippery slope device), which could potentially lead to all characters having customs.

Standard Palutena is a character that is understandably sympathized with, but I do not see the issue of Viability to be a big enough reason for customs to be turned on specifically to give her a chance. Sorry, Palutena mains.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

TL;DR: 'Because the game lets you' doesn't mean it has a place in tournaments. Expanded thoughts below.

So let me get through the run-down of why Mii Fighters should be allowed to use their alternate Specials where no one else is allowed to in a Customs-Off environment:

1. The obvious one, when you're on the character selection screen, and Customizations are set to "Off," you can still choose any combination of Specials for Mii Fighters that you desire. This tells us that the developers do not see Mii Fighter alternate Specials as a "Customization" but rather something else entirely. In this respect, we're not being unfair to other characters by turning Customizations off and allowing Mii Fighters to choose their Special combinations because the Custom Specials of every fighter and alternate Specials of Mii Fighters are considered to be two completely different things entirely.

This is absolutely true, but why would we, the competitive scene, care at all what the developers intended? You know what else the devs wanted? Timed games with items on. Of course players are given the option to play however they want, but that mode is the default for a reason. Looking even on the customs side, there is not even a means of moderating equipment use outside of 'hey make sure your opponent isn't cheating by using it.' Again, the devs apparently wanted custom play to allow use of both custom moves and equipment as well.

What I'm getting at here is just because the game lets you do something doesn't mean its the best option. Oh, and lets not forget you have to go in and customize the mii when you make it, meaning you manually adjust the custom moves to your own liking. You can't pretend like thats not a custom character being thrown into non-custom play.

2. With the newly added online Tournament Modes, you have the option to toggle Customizations and Mii Fighters as you like. Choosing the settings "Off" and "On" respectively still allows people who choose Mii Fighters to access any combination of alternate Specials that they like. This menu setting is important, because it shows that the dev team does not see the presence of Mii Fighters as something that legitimately falls under the category of Customizations.

This sounds no different than your first point, except its in a different part of the menu. The game will allow you to pick a mii with custom moves with customs turned off. I'll say again that we really don't care what the devs think should be done though.

3. Counterpoint: The reason Mii Fighters are banned in For Glory probably isn't because the developers didn't think they were suitable for competition, but rather afraid people would anonymously abuse Hitler and penis faces when competing, for sure. Also, if Mii Fighters WERE allowed to compete on For Glory, I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that they'd still be allowed to use any alternate Specials that they desire.

You're probably right, but do you have any evidence to back this claim up other than it would make sense?

4. In this latest update of Smash 4, version 1.1.0, not a single character had their Customs Specials adjusted directly(Pikachu's T-Wave infinite is patched out but only because of a change made to default T-Jolt). However, all three Mii Fighters had a good deal of their alternate Specials balanced, between 1, 2, AND 3, indicating that they were most certainly designed for competition, unlike everyone else's Custom Specials which are difficult to determine how competitive they actually were intended to be. Full 1.1.0 changelog can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/

Ok a trend is starting to appear now. The devs definitely seem to be pro mii custom use in nearly every facet. At the end of the day, that means nothing though. Lets cut the act of debate for a moment and call this whole struggle what it really has been from the start: an attempt to make mii fighters actually viable in custom-free tourney play. If that's not your endgame for arguing this mess then you're approaching it entirely wrong. I'm not above admitting my biggest gripe with giving mii fighters this boon is that it would make my life unnecessarily more difficult. 1111 Mii fighters are pretty laughable and often just free wins, while custom fighters are much scarier and harder to deal with.

BUT. 'It would make them better' is not a viable argument. No **** giving one character access to their custom moves would move them up the list. Its an edge that you're arbitrarily giving to one specific character while keeping all the others locked to their default set. You shouldn't be rewarded for picking a lower tier character, nor should you expect a handicap to be allowed to you because of your selection.

5. Countries in Europe and Japan allow free customization of Specials for Mii Fighters in their Customs-Off tournaments(needs confirming but I know at least a good amount that do).

Yeah but my friend ran a tournament and he didn't allow it! (seriously though, because someone else once did something doesn't make it right or wrong it just means it happened).

 

[Doruge]

post

So basically you want to ban mii moves because you don't like fighting them. That seems to be the only actual reason you provided for banning them.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Personally yeah, that's why I myself am against it. I don't want to see miis get a crutch to be good instead of just learning to use the moves given to them like literally every single other character. If you want custom miis, they have just as much claim to be used in customs on as anyone else, but not the other way around.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

TL;DR: 'Because the game lets you' doesn't mean it has a place in tournaments. Expanded thoughts below.




This is absolutely true, but why would we, the competitive scene, care at all what the developers intended? You know what else the devs wanted? Timed games with items on. Of course players are given the option to play however they want, but that mode is the default for a reason. Looking even on the customs side, there is not even a means of moderating equipment use outside of 'hey make sure your opponent isn't cheating by using it.' Again, the devs apparently wanted custom play to allow use of both custom moves and equipment as well.

What I'm getting at here is just because the game lets you do something doesn't mean its the best option. Oh, and lets not forget you have to go in and customize the mii when you make it, meaning you manually adjust the custom moves to your own liking. You can't pretend like thats not a custom character being thrown into non-custom play.



This sounds no different than your first point, except its in a different part of the menu. The game will allow you to pick a mii with custom moves with customs turned off. I'll say again that we really don't care what the devs think should be done though.



You're probably right, but do you have any evidence to back this claim up other than it would make sense?



Ok a trend is starting to appear now. The devs definitely seem to be pro mii custom use in nearly every facet. At the end of the day, that means nothing though. Lets cut the act of debate for a moment and call this whole struggle what it really has been from the start: an attempt to make mii fighters actually viable in custom-free tourney play. If that's not your endgame for arguing this mess then you're approaching it entirely wrong. I'm not above admitting my biggest gripe with giving mii fighters this boon is that it would make my life unnecessarily more difficult. 1111 Mii fighters are pretty laughable and often just free wins, while custom fighters are much scarier and harder to deal with.

BUT. 'It would make them better' is not a viable argument. No **** giving one character access to their custom moves would move them up the list. Its an edge that you're arbitrarily giving to one specific character while keeping all the others locked to their default set. You shouldn't be rewarded for picking a lower tier character, nor should you expect a handicap to be allowed to you because of your selection.



Yeah but my friend ran a tournament and he didn't allow it! (seriously though, because someone else once did something doesn't make it right or wrong it just means it happened).

The default standard for competitive play always starts with developer intent. Otherwise, you may as well not play the game at all!

Competitive play starts with the game as presented. The competitive community chooses the nature of their competition within the game environment. From there, changes are made for the benefit of competitive play. Any out-of-game changes must be justified, because the default is always what the game presents.

Subjective opinion is not grounds for out-of-game changes. Any out-of-game restriction must be objectively justified. A ban can only be imposed for either logistic reasons or for reasons of degenerative gameplay.

This means you have to provide logical reasoning for every stage ban you want to impose. And if you want to restrict Mii Fighters to 1111 sets with 50/50 size, you have to provide logical reasoning why all other Mii sizes cause degenerate gameplay and undermine player skill; you have to provide logical reasoning why Ultimate Uppercut causes degenerate gameplay and undermines player skill; you have to provide logical reasoning why Exploding Side Kick causes degenerate gameplay and undermines player skill; you have to provide logical reasoning why Burning Dropkick causes degenerate gameplay and undermines player skill; you have to provide logical reasoning why Headache Maker causes degenerate gameplay and undermines player skill; etc. all the way through all the Mii Fighter moves you want to ban.

I don't have to prove anything for my 0/0 3331 Mii Swordfighter to be legal in a Customs-OFF environment. You have to prove why I shouldn't be allowed to use a 0/0 Mii, why I shouldn't be allowed to use Blurring Blade, why I shouldn't be allowed to use Chakram, and why I shouldn't be allowed to use Hero's Spin.

 

[Doruge]

Personally yeah, that's why I myself am against it. I don't want to see miis get a crutch to be good instead of just learning to use the moves given to them like literally every single other character. If you want custom miis, they have just as much claim to be used in customs on as anyone else, but not the other way around.

But you don't want them to use the moves given to them. You want to arbitrarily ban the moves given to them, for no reason other than "I don't like fighting them so let's ban them"

If you provide a legitimate reason for why these moves need to be banned, your argument might get taken more seriously.

 

[san.]

Personally yeah, that's why I myself am against it. I don't want to see miis get a crutch to be good instead of just learning to use the moves given to them like literally every single other character. If you want custom miis, they have just as much claim to be used in customs on as anyone else, but not the other way around.

Can you please let mii players use the moves given to them then?

 

[2ndComing]

Personally yeah, that's why I myself am against it. I don't want to see miis get a crutch to be good instead of just learning to use the moves given to them like literally every single other character. If you want custom miis, they have just as much claim to be used in customs on as anyone else, but not the other way around.

That's very selfish

The thing about these discussions are that you SHOULD NOT let your personal feelings cloud what is better for the game and the players.

"I don't want to see miis get a crutch to be good" The Miis are both designed and balanced that way. Saying that is like saying Luigi isn't allowed to use fireball or down-throw because almost no one in the game has down-throw with as many set-ups as him or Diddy isn't allowed to use banana because NOONE has a projectile that trips players and sets up for things like F-smash and grab combos. Hey guess what? I don't like that ZSS can paralyze me and get free follow-ups and Sheik shouldn't have the ability to combo like crazy, have an near perfect recovery and a good projectile with crazy mix-ups.

See how dumb and selfish that all sounds? The reason why we bring up all these points about the game allowing them is because people push them together when customs when its obvious that the game doesn't treat them that way. Pushing them into customs like many are trying to do is just ignorant when it doesn't break the game. A lot of people just say, "eh, its not worth the effort and not too many people play Miis so who cares? They are customs and they are unfair and this and that"

From a Brawl Backroom (someone who loves Brawl) and a Premium Smashboards member (someone who heavily wants to support Smash and believe in its growth); why on earth are you pushing your own personal feelings into something that affects others and not you? So you have a learn a new match-up? Boo-hoo, because of DLC you now have to learn 4 new match-ups with more potential characters on way. Your laziness should not dictate something that allows my character to use the tools given to him.

You brought a great point about how WE CHOOSE what is best for the game however disregarding that they aren't customs and there is nothing wrong with adding those moves to them is not a good point. Like I said before and many others have said; they are meant to be played with those moves in mind and balanced around with them in mind.

Just because other characters have customs doesn't mean the Miis are because that is Rule #1 about the Miis; don't bunch them with customs.


I honestly was not going to reply to your thread because it was rather large and it was well talked about but if this your real reason for not allowing Miis to do so then that is shameful and I have no respect for people like that.

 

[Jigglymaster]

TL;DR: 'Because the game lets you' doesn't mean it has a place in tournaments. Expanded thoughts below.

This is absolutely true, but why would we, the competitive scene, care at all what the developers intended? You know what else the devs wanted? Timed games with items on. Of course players are given the option to play however they want, but that mode is the default for a reason. Looking even on the customs side, there is not even a means of moderating equipment use outside of 'hey make sure your opponent isn't cheating by using it.' Again, the devs apparently wanted custom play to allow use of both custom moves and equipment as well.

What I'm getting at here is just because the game lets you do something doesn't mean its the best option. Oh, and lets not forget you have to go in and customize the mii when you make it, meaning you manually adjust the custom moves to your own liking. You can't pretend like thats not a custom character being thrown into non-custom play.

Items, Timed Games, janky stages like 75m, we ban these because they create degenerate gameplay and they are unhealthy for the competitive environment. If they are not, then we do not have a reason to ban them. Sheik is selectable on the select screen but we do not ban her because she is fine.

You know what else the game allows? Mii fighters with any of their moves, and guess what? They're fine too. Do they cause degenerate gameplay? No. Are they overpowered? No. Did you see them cracking top 8 at EVO? No. So why ban?


Reason 1: You're selfish. You wish to ban the character so you do not have to learn the matchup. We should just ban Sheik despite the game allowing it.

Reason 2: You're ignorant. You do not comprehend why we ban things to begin with.

 

[clydeaker]

I would be alright with Mii customs being legal with customs turned off, but in the end I would still prefer for custom moves to be on. That would make mii fighters seem more fair.

 

[GwJ]

So let me get through the run-down of why Mii Fighters should be allowed to use their alternate Specials where no one else is allowed to in a Customs-Off environment:

1. The obvious one, when you're on the character selection screen, and Customizations are set to "Off," you can still choose any combination of Specials for Mii Fighters that you desire. This tells us that the developers do not see Mii Fighter alternate Specials as a "Customization" but rather something else entirely. In this respect, we're not being unfair to other characters by turning Customizations off and allowing Mii Fighters to choose their Special combinations because the Custom Specials of every fighter and alternate Specials of Mii Fighters are considered to be two completely different things entirely.

2. With the newly added online Tournament Modes, you have the option to toggle Customizations and Mii Fighters as you like. Choosing the settings "Off" and "On" respectively still allows people who choose Mii Fighters to access any combination of alternate Specials that they like. This menu setting is important, because it shows that the dev team does not see the presence of Mii Fighters as something that legitimately falls under the category of Customizations.

3. Counterpoint: The reason Mii Fighters are banned in For Glory probably isn't because the developers didn't think they were suitable for competition, but rather afraid people would anonymously abuse Hitler and penis faces when competing, for sure. Also, if Mii Fighters WERE allowed to compete on For Glory, I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that they'd still be allowed to use any alternate Specials that they desire.

4. In this latest update of Smash 4, version 1.1.0, not a single character had their Customs Specials adjusted directly(Pikachu's T-Wave infinite is patched out but only because of a change made to default T-Jolt). However, all three Mii Fighters had a good deal of their alternate Specials balanced, between 1, 2, AND 3, indicating that they were most certainly designed for competition, unlike everyone else's Custom Specials which are difficult to determine how competitive they actually were intended to be. Full 1.1.0 changelog can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/

5. Countries in Europe and Japan allow free customization of Specials for Mii Fighters in their Customs-Off tournaments(needs confirming but I know at least a good amount that do).

Why should a grassroots community such as Smash care about what the devs intended? The history of Smash shows that we really don't.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Why should a grassroots community such as Smash care about what the devs intended? The history of Smash shows that we really don't.

People seem to like to ignore my post, but I'll state it again.

We only ban things that the devs intended if and ONLY if, one of these criteria is met.

-They cause Degenerate Gameplay (Items, Janky Stages, Time Mode, Grab the coins, ect)
- They are OP (Like Metaknight almost was in Brawl)

Mii Fighters and their alternate specials fit neither of these.

So why do we ban them if the game allows it?

 

[san.]

Why should a grassroots community such as Smash care about what the devs intended? The history of Smash shows that we really don't.

Are Mii players a part of this community? Dev's side is looking very pleasant at the moment...


What dev ruling has the community overruled outside of sudden death, the suicide clause, and OP moves/characters?

 

[Auramaniji]

Why should a grassroots community such as Smash care about what the devs intended? The history of Smash shows that we really don't.

Then let's change smash history for the future and pay attention to the devs. Nothing simpler than that.

 

[GwJ]

People seem to like to ignore my post, but I'll state it again.

We only ban things that the devs intended if and ONLY if, one of these criteria is met.

-They cause Degenerate Gameplay (Items, Janky Stages, Time Mode, Grab the coins, ect)
- They are OP (Like Metaknight almost was in Brawl)

Mii Fighters and their alternate specials fit neither of these.

So why do we ban them if the game allows it?

Most customs (and probably some items) fit neither of them and I still don't support them.

Are Mii players a part of this community? Dev's side is looking very pleasant at the moment...


What dev ruling has the community overruled outside of sudden death, the suicide clause, and OP moves/characters?

Sure they are. I don't support the banning of Miis. I support the requirement that Miis are 1111 just like every other character. You can use a Mii, just use the same set every other character in the game has to use.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Most customs (and probably some items) fit neither of them and I still don't support them.

Well, by looking at EVO you'll see that none of the Mii Fighters made top 8 at EVO, even with the "broken" tiny size. Clearly they are not OP or even the best character. And this is considering the fact that most people have not learned the MU yet, they will only get worse from here. No reason to ban.

And you not supporting them despite them not fitting these reasons is childish. It makes no sense.

Sure they are. I don't support the banning of Miis. I support the requirement that Miis are 1111 just like every other character. You can use a Mii, just use the same set every other character in the game has to use.

By going against the Dev's ruling, you have to have a legit reason. Forcing Miis to use their other specials despite what the devs say is the same as saying that Diddy is not allowed to use his banana just because no other character in the game can spawn bananas at any time in the match.

It comes off as selfish because you are twisting the dev's rules to be in your favor. If you don't main the mii fighters then it becomes a straight upgrade for you because you don't have to deal with the MU or deal with players who main the character.

I could very well say we should ban Rob (who Im assuming is your main based on your info) for those same exact reasons. If the Dev's didn't allow mii fighters to use their specials with customs off, then you'd have a legit argument.

 

[CursedJay]

I have always viewed the issue of Customs as a logistical one. Mii's customs do not present any logistical issues, as they are available even in the default character select screen.

Palutena requires a modification of the character select screen, essentially altering the non custom argument to a custom one. Call it a glitch or an accident, but customizable Mii Fighters are in the default meta. Whether we want to recognize their existence in the Default meta is a different story, but there is no reason to not include them, at least for a logistical standpoint.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Call it a glitch or an accident, but customizable Mii Fighters are in the default meta.

It can't even be one of the two above, the proof that it was intentional was further cemented in when they added tournament mode and made Mii Fighters and Custom moves two separate toggles. You can join a Nintendo official custom move banned tournament and you are allowed to play with 2122 Mii Brawler if you wish.

 

[-Xeroskia.]

I'm sorry, but going against the rules and/or intent of the base game that we play for the sake of "independence from the developers" or "because we did it for this other thing.." or all of that is the weakest point if ever seen for creating a healthy competitive community in the aforementioned game.
Miis can use alternate specials when custom settings are off. If this was a glitch or a mistake, it would have obviously been corrected at this point. Palutena also has her customs fully available from the beginning of the game, but she cannot use them when the custom setting is off, so clearly there was some thought into the reasoning behind this.

Every single rule change or ban, that I can recall has been made, has had very specific and understandable reasoning to why it happened and every single one of them are able to stand on their own individually. I have yet to see a single reason for Mii's not being allowed to use their alternate specials stand on its own without bringing in personal bias toward Mii Fighters (*coughhelicopterkick0/0brawlercough*) and/or custom moves as a whole, or ignoring an aspect of the rules of the game itself without a competitively detrimental excuse. It's as simple as that.

This is a video game, not civil rights. Nothing's gonna explode, no one's going to die (hopefully), and if you quit playing competitive Smash for a reason like this, we really didn't want and/or need you anyway no one is stopping you. The LEAST that could happen here is that we give the Mii's a fair shake with their alternate specials in a customs-off environment (Smashfests or regional/national tournament side events if people are really going to complain that much if tournament ca$h prizes are on the line..), especially since I don't recall a period that it has been largely agreed on to be done. At all. Ever. Since the game was released.

Jesus, it feels like the MK ban when it's not even close to that level that we're asking for..

 

[GwJ]

Well, by looking at EVO you'll see that none of the Mii Fighters made top 8 at EVO, even with the "broken" tiny size. Clearly they are not OP or even the best character. And this is considering the fact that most people have not learned the MU yet, they will only get worse from here. No reason to ban.

I never said they were OP. I think there can be arguments for it in some situations (not necessarily Miis), but that's not what I claimed.

By going against the Dev's ruling, you have to have a legit reason. Forcing Miis to use their other specials despite what the devs say is the same as saying that Diddy is not allowed to use his banana just because no other character in the game can spawn bananas at any time in the match.

It comes off as selfish because you are twisting the dev's rules to be in your favor. If you don't main the mii fighters then it becomes a straight upgrade for you because you don't have to deal with the MU or deal with players who main the character.

I could very well say we should ban Rob (who Im assuming is your main based on your avi) for those same exact reasons. If the Dev's didn't allow mii fighters to use their specials with customs off, then you'd have a legit argument.

The devs have not made a ruling technically. They're simply not addressed them. Forcing Miis to not use non-1111 moves is not the same as forcing Diddy to not use bananas. It's the same as forcing Diddy to not use non-1111 moves.

Go ahead and call me selfish by the way. I main Rosalina. I can use customs get a straight upgrade to my character to become arguably the best character in the game. I still don't think customs are good for the game.

I've said it many times in response to Chibo's calls for legal custom Miis in his case for Gunner. It doesn't matter what Nintendo "intended" (intended taken loosely since they have a history of not caring about the competitive side anyway). If every character is forced to use 1111 without customs being enabled, it is only right for Miis to be able to do the same.

I'm sorry, but going against the rules and/or intent of the base game that we play for the sake of "independence from the developers" or "because we did it for this other thing.." or all of that is the weakest point if ever seen for creating a healthy competitive community in the aforementioned game.

Every single rule change or ban, that I can recall has been made, has had very specific and understandable reasoning to why it happened and every single one of them are able to stand on their own individually. I have yet to see a single reason for Mii's not being allowed to use their alternate specials stand on its own without bringing in personal bias toward Mii Fighters (*coughhelicopterkick0/0brawlercough*) and/or custom moves as a whole, or ignoring an aspect of the rules of the game itself without a competitively detrimental excuse. It's as simple as that.

This is a video game, not civil rights. Nothing's gonna explode, no one's going to die (hopefully), and if you quit playing competitive Smash for a reason like this, we really didn't want and/or need you anyway no one is stopping you. The LEAST that could happen here is that we give the Mii's a fair shake with their alternate specials in a customs-off environment (Smashfests or regional/national tournament side events if people are really going to complain that much if tournament ca$h prizes are on the line..), especially since I don't recall a period that it has been done. At all. Ever. Since the game was released.

Jesus, it feels like the MK ban when it's not even close to that level that we're asking for..

There is a difference between this and the MK ban. MK is enabled by default. Customs are not. Nobody had to "turn MK on" so if you want to ban MK, you have to make a case against MK. Customs are turned off by default. If you want to make customs legal by default, you have to make that case and I don't think that case has been made.

 

[Doruge]

There is a difference between this and the MK ban. MK is enabled by default. Customs are not. Nobody had to "turn MK on" so if you want to ban MK, you have to make a case against MK. Customs are turned off by default. If you want to make customs legal by default, you have to make that case and I don't think that case has been made.

Miis have access to their alternate moves by default. They are completely separate from customs, stop trying to equate the two.

 

[GwJ]

Miis have access to their alternate moves by default. They are completely separate from customs, stop trying to equate the two.

And that's why I made more than a single point. Like I already said, if every other character is forced to use 1111, then I argue it's only fair that Mii Fighters use them as well.

 

[deepseadiva]

I have always viewed the issue of Customs as a logistical one. Mii's customs do not present any logistical issues, as they are available even in the default character select screen.

Palutena requires a modification of the character select screen, essentially altering the non custom argument to a custom one. Call it a glitch or an accident, but customizable Mii Fighters are in the default meta. Whether we want to recognize their existence in the Default meta is a different story, but there is no reason to not include them, at least for a logistical standpoint.

Since you mentioned it, would you say there is any logistic reason to ban Palutena's customs?

Or like I believe you're saying, there isn't, and its mostly about the political can of worms "Customs On" means.

Like, I'm wondering if a world were "Customs On, but only Palutena and Miis are allowed customs since they come unlocked on every system" is a rule lol.

 

[-Xeroskia.]

There is a difference between this and the MK ban. MK is enabled by default. Customs are not. Nobody had to "turn MK on" so if you want to ban MK, you have to make a case against MK. Customs are turned off by default. If you want to make customs legal by default, you have to make that case and I don't think that case has been made.

That difference is moot because the Mii Fighters have all the alternate specials available to them from the start and they are still available when the custom setting is off. This means they are not customs in the general sense of the word, even if they are applied to the character in the same way. If you're out of cases, we can close this.

And that's why I made more than a single point. Like I already said, if every other character is forced to use 1111, then I argue it's only fair that Mii Fighters use them as well.

Just becasue the Mii's have more special moves available to them than other characters doesn't mean it's unfair, especially competitively. Every character has special attributes and for the Mii's it would be this. It's not like they can use all 12 in a single match. They can still only have 4 equipped at any one time.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I never said they were OP. I think there can be arguments for it in some situations (not necessarily Miis), but that's not what I claimed.

My apologies, I did in fact misread this and didn't notice that you were actually in agreeance with me there of sorts.

The devs have not made a ruling technically. They're simply not addressed them. Forcing Miis to not use non-1111 moves is not the same as forcing Diddy to not use bananas. It's the same as forcing Diddy to not use non-1111 moves.

Go ahead and call me selfish by the way. I main Rosalina. I can use customs get a straight upgrade to my character to become arguably the best character in the game. I still don't think customs are good for the game.

I've said it many times in response to Chibo's calls for legal custom Miis in his case for Gunner. It doesn't matter what Nintendo "intended" (intended taken loosely since they have a history of not caring about the competitive side anyway). If every character is forced to use 1111 without customs being enabled, it is only right for Miis to be able to do the same.

How is it only right? It seems like more people WANT more than just 1111 for the miis compared to people that don't. Look at the poll above. It's 3 to 1 in the Pro-Mii's favor. You're legitimately hurting the community by killing off players who want these moves and you're risking nothing, how many people would actually quit smash if Mii fighters got what they wanted?

M2k and myself are both quitting Smash 4 if Mii Fighters can't have their specials.

If you're not selfish, then why does it bother you so much when it could make SO MANY PEOPLE HAPPY? Wouldn't it be nice if the majority of what people wanted got their way? Isn't that how it's supposed to be? We already have the majority and the Dev's allowing could even be considered a tie breaker.

Thats what it boils down to "it's only right" is your way of saying "I don't like it" well too bad, for every person that doesn't like it, 3 of us do.

 

[Doruge]

And that's why I made more than a single point. Like I already said, if every other character is forced to use 1111, then I argue it's only fair that Mii Fighters use them as well.

Every other character is forced into 1111 by the game itself. Miis are not. There is no reason to go against this. "It's only fair" is not a reason to ban something.

 

[CursedJay]

There is a difference between this and the MK ban. MK is enabled by default. Customs are not. Nobody had to "turn MK on" so if you want to ban MK, you have to make a case against MK. Customs are turned off by default. If you want to make customs legal by default, you have to make that case and I don't think that case has been made.

Not to witchhunt you, but even from a firm Anti customs standpoint, this is a very poor example. The two things are not comparable in that sense.

Since you mentioned it, would you say there is any logistic reason to ban Palutena's customs?

Or like I believe you're saying, there isn't, and its mostly about the political can of worms "Customs On" means.

Like, I'm wondering if a world were "Customs On, but only Palutena and Miis are allowed customs since they come unlocked on every system" is a rule lol.

It's the latter, sadly. The Viability issue isn't a valid reason to turn customs on for any one character, no matter how bad.

 

[deepseadiva]

Every other character is forced into 1111 by the game itself. Miis are not. There is no reason to go against this. "It's only fair" is not a reason to ban something.

Good distinction! "This is what the game forces" definitely isn't true.

"1111 only" is entirely a player invented rule. Good thing to keep in mind.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Man I'm just gunna let @ GwJ do all the talking since he's saying everything I'm thinking already.

Well except for this. A big thing that I'm seeing argued is how we should 'ban' miis from using their expanded moves in standard play. But to ban something, it would have to be legal in the first place. I'm far from up to date, but I don't believe any major tournament has allowed them outside of the 1111 set. We're not arguing to ban, YOU guys are arguing to make legal.

This (I hope) should help your perspective on the situation some. This is not people ganging up on poor mii mains trying to make them worse, its everyone else in the game saying 'hey I dunno about letting that one character just get better for no reason'. Yes, it would make all you guys happy but don't forget that would be a slap in the face to every single other character main.

Move for move, 1111 mii brawler is at no inherent disadvantage to any other character in the game. You have just as many special moves as anyone else. You have all the same aerials. Tilts? Oh bb you better believe you got those too. You don't have to LIKE the default set, just like a DK player probably doesn't like the 1111 DK as much as customs. If you've got a problem with that, then push to make customs legal, don't try to artificially get a leg up to make your character work.

Good distinction! "This is what the game forces" definitely isn't true.

"1111 only" is entirely a player invented rule. Good thing to keep in mind.

Ok, lol. Go make a mii for me, and don't click on any screens that say something like 'customize'. I don't even think you can get to the screen to make miis without going there first (but I might be wrong).

Beyond that, if you go into your new mii, what custom moves does it have? (spoiler its 1111). Do you have to manually change them? Then its a custom character once you do. You have made it no longer the default.

 

[GwJ]

How is it only right? It seems like more people WANT more than just 1111 for the miis compared to people that don't. Look at the poll above. It's 3 to 1 in the Pro-Mii's favor. You're legitimately hurting the community by killing off players who want these moves and you're risking nothing, how many people would actually quit smash if Mii fighters got what they wanted?

M2k and myself are both quitting Smash 4 if Mii Fighters can't have their specials.

If you're not selfish, then why does it bother you so much when it could make SO MANY PEOPLE HAPPY? Wouldn't it be nice if the majority of what people wanted got their way? Isn't that how it's supposed to be? We already have the majority and the Dev's allowing could even be considered a tie breaker.

Thats what it boils down to "it's only right" is your way of saying "I don't like it" well too bad, for every person that doesn't like it, 3 of us do.

164 or so people do not represent the voice of the masses, nor do I even think something like this should be decided by a simple poll. I also don't care if people quit because they can't use custom Miis. How many more people would play if items were never banned? What if someone's favorite stage was never banned? It doesn't matter. They're banned because they're bad for the game, not because they're trying to maximize the number of players. The ruleset that allows for the highest number of people to play doesn't make the best game.

I'm sorry if not allowing custom Miis will cause you or M2K to quit, but I will not have my game taken hostage by a player threatening to quit if he does not get his way.

The argument I've been making has been a matter of precedence and consistency. We do not allow customs for any character in non-customs tournaments. I do not believe being able to select them with the button switched off makes them suddenly not customs. Mii Fighters are unique in that you can select their customs sets with customs off. That doesn't make them not customs.

Well except for this. A big thing that I'm seeing argued is how we should 'ban' miis from using their expanded moves in standard play. But to ban something, it would have to be legal in the first place. I'm far from up to date, but I don't believe any major tournament has allowed them outside of the 1111 set. We're not arguing to ban, YOU guys are arguing to make legal.

This is actually a more clear version of the distinction I made with the MK ban example. MK was legal and we had to argue to ban him. Customs aren't legal by default and must be argued for.

 

[⑨ball]

Good distinction! "This is what the game forces" definitely isn't true.

"1111 only" is entirely a player invented rule. Good thing to keep in mind.

It's kinda necessary as just listing "no customs" as a rule opens up tons of argument and loophole exploitation that simply isn't worth the headache as a TO.