Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[Doruge]

Mii Fighters are unique in that you can select their customs sets with customs off. That doesn't make them not customs.

Except it does, by definition.

Also, explain how it's "bad for the game" to let miis use the moves they're supposed to have access to.

This is actually a more clear version of the distinction I made with the MK ban example. MK was legal and we had to argue to ban him. Customs aren't legal by default and must be argued for.

Mii's alternate moves are legal by default. Stop saying this.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well except for this. A big thing that I'm seeing argued is how we should 'ban' miis from using their expanded moves in standard play. But to ban something, it would have to be legal in the first place. I'm far from up to date, but I don't believe any major tournament has allowed them outside of the 1111 set. We're not arguing to ban, YOU guys are arguing to make legal.

All of miis moves are legal by default. Just because Apex banned 2/3s of their special moves doesn't mean that's the standard for the game.

Beyond that, if you go into your new mii, what custom moves does it have? (spoiler its 1111). Do you have to manually change them? Then its a custom character once you do. You have made it no longer the default.

This logic is ridiculously bad

You also have to manually select gunner or swordfighter lmao.

This is actually a more clear version of the distinction I made with the MK ban example. MK was legal and we had to argue to ban him. Customs aren't legal by default and must be argued for.

All the miis specials are legal by default, so what's the real argument against them?

As has been explained many times, they don't break the game, they don't make it less competitive, what the hell is the issue, aside from spite from other characters? (we might as well ban needles and bouncing fish too because no other characters have those options right?)

 

[GwJ]

Except it does, by definition.

Also, explain how it's "bad for the game" to let miis use the moves they're supposed to have access to.

I've already stated that I disagree with the proposition that being able to select something with customs off makes something non-custom alone. I think it's right to define a custom move as a non-default (1) move. In this case, anything non-1111 is custom even if you don't have to toggle the little button in the corner.

I'm also not arguing custom Mii alone is bad for the game. I lump custom Mii in with custom everything else and I'm against customs entirely.

All of miis moves are legal by default. Just because Apex banned 2/3s of their special moves doesn't mean that's the standard for the game.

People would be arguing about this even if Apex allowed customs.

 

[Ghostbone]

People would be arguing about this even if Apex allowed customs.

If Apex didn't mess it up, miis with all their moves would be standard everywhere.
I can say that with certainty because other regions with miis allowed have had no issues.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

I'm speaking from a ruleset perspective, not like you can physically click on them. To my knowledge, no major tournament has allowed miis to use their custom moves outside of being a customs legal tournament.

 

[CursedJay]

I will hold to the issue of logistics here.

At the risk of repeating myself, Mii fighters and palutena do not present any accessibility issues. However, palutena opens the Custom can of worms, whereas Miis can be selected through the default menu, and therefore have legitimate claim to be legal.

 

[Doruge]

I've already stated that I disagree with the proposition that being able to select something with customs off makes something non-custom alone. I think it's right to define a custom move as a non-default (1) move. In this case, anything non-1111 is custom even if you don't have to toggle the little button in the corner.

I'm also not arguing custom Mii alone is bad for the game. I lump custom Mii in with custom everything else and I'm against customs entirely.

So basically it's your personal opinion of what constitutes a "custom", versus the game's opinion. I'm sure you aren't surprised that people tend to side with the game's opinion over yours.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm speaking from a ruleset perspective, not like you can physically click on them. To my knowledge, no major tournament has allowed miis to use their custom moves outside of being a customs legal tournament.

So because it's tradition it's correct?
Do I even have to point out how this is fallacious.

Also, stop calling them their custom moves, the game lets you use all their moves with customs off, so by the game's definition they're not custom moves.

 

[GwJ]

If Apex didn't mess it up, miis with all their moves would be standard everywhere.
I can say that with certainty because other regions with miis allowed have had no issues.

I disagree with your assertion.

So basically it's your personal opinion of what constitutes a "custom", versus the game's opinion. I'm sure you aren't surprised that people tend to side with the game's opinion over yours.

It's not just my opinion. Well, it is my opinion. But I believe it's also a justifiable opinion. If you define custom as "able to only select it with the customs toggle set to "On" on the character selection screen", then I think your definition is not robust and does not define what a custom really is. A custom move is a move that is not the default move and the default move is the "1" move.

 

[CursedJay]

So because it's tradition it's correct?
Do I even have to point out how this is fallacious.

I wouldn't call it fallacious. We have a standard, and abiding by that standard is an option.

 

[⑨ball]

So basically it's your personal opinion of what constitutes a "custom", versus the game's opinion. I'm sure you aren't surprised that people tend to side with the game's opinion over yours.

I'm really trying not to get into this again, but the game doesn't have an opinion or definition for what is and isn't anything. It has a UI that allows or disallows things. If we turn items off Peach still has access to her items, the game does not define them or believe they are not items they're just allowed to be pulled because that's how the system functions.

 

[CursedJay]

I disagree with your assertion.



It's not just my opinion. Well, it is my opinion. But I believe it's also a justifiable opinion.

It is still your opinion, and is therefore not concrete enough to be accepted as truth. Also, you've yet to properly justify your opinion from a non bias stance.

 

[GwJ]

It is still your opinion, and is therefore not concrete enough to be accepted as truth. Also, you've yet to properly justify your opinion from a non bias stance.

An opinion can be true. What about my opinion is not properly justified?

 

[Ghostbone]

It's not just my opinion. Well, it is my opinion. But I believe it's also a justifiable opinion. If you define custom as "able to only select it with the customs toggle set to "On" on the character selection screen", then I think your definition is not robust and does not define what a custom really is. A custom move is a move that is not the default move and the default move is the "1" move.

Lmao

You're disagreeing with the game's definition when the context of the debate is the game itself.
Why is something a custom move automatically when it's not the default move. A custom move is a custom move when the game considers it a custom move.

Or are half of ryu's moves customs because they're not the default input?

Like seriously, just because you're customising the miis doesn't mean that they're custom moves when you use the game's definition. And if you're not using the game's definition when debating about the game itself then I don't know what to tell you. (aside from your definition is completely arbitrary and has no place in ruleset discussion)

 

[Doruge]

A custom move is a move that is not the default move and the default move is the "1" move.

The game disagrees with you. Why should we listen to you instead of the game itself?

 

[-Xeroskia.]

Man I'm just gunna let @ GwJ do all the talking since he's saying everything I'm thinking already.

Well except for this. A big thing that I'm seeing argued is how we should 'ban' miis from using their expanded moves in standard play. But to ban something, it would have to be legal in the first place. I'm far from up to date, but I don't believe any major tournament has allowed them outside of the 1111 set. We're not arguing to ban, YOU guys are arguing to make legal.

This (I hope) should help your perspective on the situation some. This is not people ganging up on poor mii mains trying to make them worse, its everyone else in the game saying 'hey I dunno about letting that one character just get better for no reason'. Yes, it would make all you guys happy but don't forget that would be a slap in the face to every single other character main.

Move for move, 1111 mii brawler is at no inherent disadvantage to any other character in the game. You have just as many special moves as anyone else. You have all the same aerials. Tilts? Oh bb you better believe you got those too. You don't have to LIKE the default set, just like a DK player probably doesn't like the 1111 DK as much as customs. If you've got a problem with that, then push to make customs legal, don't try to artificially get a leg up to make your character work.

First of all, the base of our argument has nothing to do with "well Miss get better with their alternate specials, so let us have them" That is missing the main point. I just want to get that out of the way.

Anyway, the main reason why 1111 was set up for Mii's was to seperate customs from the initial competitive metagame. Since Mii specials acted similarly enough to other character's custom moves in terms of being applied and changed, they were included to give the game as clean of a slate to begin with. That's understandable. Almost everyone agreed that customs should be looked at before tossing them into the ring with tournaments right off the bat.

As a competitive community, custom tournaments were always a "side event" so to speak and the only people that took them seriously was Nintendo themselves for a decent amount of time. It's no longer that way, but now we have seen even more difference between Mii specials and other character's custom moves as well, such as their availability when customs are off.

Since the game allows such a rule, we're now calling it back into question. I don't think it's unfair of us to do this considering that it wasn't a factor when the 1111 rule was made to separate customs as a whole, and thus wasn't widely known that Miis could use their specials with customs off. Balance was never an issue for most Mii mainers, especially since having them isn't a "balance issue" either but a "fairness" issue. And I think they found it pretty unfair that the nothing character with a bunch of moves to pick from was limited down to 4 simply because "it was always that way". Competitively, their feelings about that don't mean anything, but it also isn't enough to override something the game allows. It just took us a while to find out that information and we're asking for a trial run.

*Damn, it's hard to keep up in here... :[

 

[deepseadiva]

I wouldn't call it fallacious. We have a standard, and abiding by that standard is an option.

Its fallacious.

Blindly grandfathering in rules is what caused a bunch of early tournaments to have that outdated Bowser Suicide Clause. You are right though, we use past rulesets as reference; but not as law, otherwise they're would have never been growth such as Stage Striking, Time Out Rematches, hell 3 stock.

It's weak reasoning and should be dropped. Otherwise every time there's an updated ruleset yall are like:

 

[GwJ]

Lmao

You're disagreeing with the game's definition when the context of the debate is the game itself.
Why is something a custom move automatically when it's not the default move. A custom move is a custom move when the game considers it a custom move.

Or are half of ryu's moves customs because they're not the default input?

I've already stated over and over I don't care about the game letting you select Miis with customs with customs turned to "Off". Your definition of custom does not define what a custom move is and mine does. There's a reason the title "Should custom Miis be separated from fighter customs" still calls the Miis customs. It's because we don't define customs as what is selectable with customs switched to on. Customs are moves that are not default.

Ryu has no custom moves because HE HAS NO CUSTOM MOVES like several characters.

 

[CursedJay]

I'm also not arguing custom Mii alone is bad for the game. I lump custom Mii in with custom everything else and I'm against customs entirely.

Give me a non generalized example as to why you are specifically against Mii Fighters. I'm Anti Customs too, but you're being a little too adamant in your stance.

 

[Ghostbone]

I've already stated over and over I don't care about the game letting you select Miis with customs with customs turned to "Off". Your definition of custom does not define what a custom move is and mine does. There's a reason the title "Should custom Miis be separated from fighter customs" still calls the Miis customs. It's because we don't define customs as what is selectable with customs switched to on. Customs are moves that are not default.

Ryu has no custom moves because HE HAS NO CUSTOM MOVES like several characters.

"I don't care about the game's definition"
Then get the hell out of ruleset discussion for the game.
When you stop caring about what's default for the game you can make any number of arbitrary rules and they're all equally justified.

 

[GwJ]

Give me a non generalized example as to why you are specifically against Mii Fighters. I'm Anti Customs too, but you're being a little too adamant in your stance.

I am against customs. Mii fighters with non-1111 movesets are customs, therefore I am against Mii fighters with non-1111 movesets.

That's about as clear as I can get.

"I don't care about the game's definition"
Then get the hell out of ruleset discussion for the game.

I care about definitions, but definitions put forward by the game aren't always the ones that promote the best competitive environment. You as a smash player should understand that.

 

[Ghostbone]

I care about definitions, but definitions put forward by the game aren't always the ones that promote the best competitive environment. You as a smash player should understand that.

Then please give examples of how miis specials THAT ARE ALLOWED BY DEFAULT either break the game, make it unbalanced, make it less competitive, or are a logistical nightmare in some sense.

Otherwise your argument has no merit.

 

[CursedJay]

You're being a little too adamant in your stance.

So now that we're clear, your reasoning has very little depth. Elaborate or don't. Choice you make lets me know how seriously to take you on this.

 

[GwJ]

Then please give examples of how miis specials THAT ARE ALLOWED BY DEFAULT either break the game, make it unbalanced, make it less competitive, or are a logistical nightmare in some sense.

Otherwise your argument has no merit.

I have never been arguing that Mii's customs in particular are game breaking, unbalanced, or anything. I'm arguing that Mii's customs should be counted as a custom just like everyone else's.

 

[Doruge]

Mii fighters with non-1111 movesets are customs

You keep saying this, yet there's absolutely nothing to support it. It's your personal opinion, yet you expect people to treat it as an indisputable fact. Why should we base rulesets off of what YOU believe a "custom move" is?

 

[Ghostbone]

Ryu has no custom moves because HE HAS NO CUSTOM MOVES like several characters.

Circular logic

Why isn't my definition (for the sake of this argument) that ryu's alternate input moves are customs since they're not the default version of the special any less valid than your definition of customs?

 

[GwJ]

You keep saying this, yet there's absolutely nothing to support it. It's your personal opinion, yet you expect people to treat it as an indisputable fact. Why should we base rulesets off of what YOU believe a "custom move" is?

Because it's a justifiable definition. What makes any character custom? A non-1111 moveset. What makes my 2311 ROB custom? It uses 2311 instead of 1111. I think you're being very stubborn if you're going to argue against that.

Circular logic

Why isn't my definition (for the sake of this argument) that ryu's alternate input moves are customs since they're not the default version of the special any less valid than your definition of customs?

It was not circular logic. I was using different definitions (yours in the beginning then mine in caps). Your defintion however has changed. Nobody has argued that customs are moves that require different button inputs in-game, nor do I think anybody will be onboard with that (I certainly am not and will argue against it if someone did).

Ryu has no custom moves because when you try and change his special moves, he has none to switch to.

So here you say the game's definition isn't the most competitive.

And here you say that miis moves aren't less competitive.


So you're using a different definition than the game's that makes the game less competitive.

The game's definition isn't necessarily the most competitive. I have not been arguing specifically about Mii's custom moves this entire time (I don't know how many times I've said this). I'm arguing that Mii customs are customs like every other character's. I think the game with all customs enabled isn't optimal and so I am against it.

 

[Ghostbone]

So here you say the game's definition isn't the most competitive.

I care about definitions, but definitions put forward by the game aren't always the ones that promote the best competitive environment. You as a smash player should understand that.

And here you say that miis moves aren't less competitive.

I have never been arguing that Mii's customs in particular are game breaking, unbalanced, or anything. I'm arguing that Mii's customs should be counted as a custom just like everyone else's.

So you're using a different definition than the game's that makes the game less competitive.

Because it's a justifiable definition. What makes any character custom? A non-1111 moveset. What makes my 2311 ROB custom? It uses 2311 instead of 1111. I think you're being very stubborn if you're going to argue against that.

Your ROB is custom because he's only usable with the custom toggle set to on.
Until you provide a valid reason why your definition is more competitive than the game's definition then your argument is meaningless.

 

[CursedJay]

Because it's a justifiable definition. What makes any character custom? A non-1111 moveset. What makes my 2311 ROB custom? It uses 2311 instead of 1111. I think you're being very stubborn if you're going to argue against that.

I'm not arguing your definition here is wrong. I am telling you that your simplification of the situation based on your personal stance on customs as a whole is blatantly ignorant. If you don't have any actual reason to keep these out, your opinion on the miis is based on absolute air.

 

[Doruge]

Because it's a justifiable definition. What makes any character custom? A non-1111 moveset. What makes my 2311 ROB custom? It uses 2311 instead of 1111. I think you're being very stubborn if you're going to argue against that.

What makes Mii moves NOT custom moves? They can be used with customs turned off.

^This opinion is equally as justifiable as yours, the difference is that this opinion is supported by the game itself and yours isn't.

 

[-Xeroskia.]

I'm also not arguing custom Mii alone is bad for the game. I lump custom Mii in with custom everything else and I'm against customs entirely.

If you define custom as "able to only select it with the customs toggle set to "On" on the character selection screen", then I think your definition is not robust and does not define what a custom really is. A custom move is a move that is not the default move and the default move is the "1" move.

To my knowledge, no major tournament has allowed miis to use their custom moves outside of being a customs legal tournament.

These responses especially are what I directed my previous post toward.

These reasons:
- Mii specials are grouped with custom moves, so they should not be allowed.
- A custom is a special that is not the default and default is the one labeled "1"
- Miis haven't had all their customs allowed in any major custom-off tournaments

are not good enough reasons to prevent Miis from using specials in a mode that is allowed through the game. There are no loopholes. There are no tricks or setups or fancy fingers. You can pick a Mii fighter, you can pick your specials, you can pick a tag, a stage, music or w/e else, and you can start the game when custom moves are selected to be off. Or every other rule in the competitive ruleset except "1111 only". A new player-made rule specific to Smash 4. A rule that we are now contesting due to not-so-new-but-kinda-new evidence.

Things I don't see directly defined by the game are:
- Default specials being always labeled as "1"
- Mii specials unusable when customs are set to off.
- Future tournament rules posted within the game.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I have never been arguing that Mii's customs in particular are game breaking, unbalanced, or anything. I'm arguing that Mii's customs should be counted as a custom just like everyone else's.

So despite them not being a problem, despite the dev's allowing it, and despite a good majority of competitive players preferring it to be this way (and I mean from more than just this simple poll), you don't want it to be this way.


....ok

You're almost as bad as Sakurai is when listening to what the competitive fanbase wants

 

[Ghostbone]

What makes Mii moves NOT custom moves? They can be used with customs turned off.

^This opinion is equally as justifiable as yours, the difference is that this opinion is supported by the game itself and yours isn't.

More justified*
Since it's supported by the game, it's not abitrary like GwJ's.

It was not circular logic. I was using different definitions (yours in the beginning then mine in caps). Your defintion however has changed. Nobody has argued that customs are moves that require different button inputs in-game, nor do I think anybody will be onboard with that (I certainly am not and will argue against it if someone did).

Ryu has no custom moves because when you try and change his special moves, he has none to switch to.

You haven't actually explained how that definition is less valid
You've just used your arbitrary definition again and pointed out how they're different.

 

[GwJ]

I'm not arguing your definition here is wrong. I am telling you that your simplification of the situation based on your personal stance on customs as a whole is blatantly ignorant. If you don't have any actual reason to keep these out, your opinion on the miis is based on absolute air.

It is based on a JUSTIFIABLE definition of customs. Why should I fluff up my opinion when I've stated a clear, robust definition of custom moves that make sense?

What makes Mii moves NOT custom moves? They can be used with customs turned off.

^This opinion is equally as justifiable as yours, the difference is that this opinion is supported by the game itself and yours isn't.

And the problem is that, like I've already stated, that is not a good definition and I can defend that. My definition is better. I don't want to sound arrogant, but as I've already said, merely being able to select a Mii that has custom moves without the custom toggle on does not mean the character has no custom moves.

These responses especially are what I directed my previous post toward.

These reasons:
- Mii specials are grouped with custom moves, so they should not be allowed.
- A custom is a special that is not the default and default is the one labeled "1"
- Miis haven't had all their customs allowed in any major custom-off tournaments

are not good enough reasons to prevent Miis from using specials in a mode that is allowed through the game. There are no loopholes. There are no tricks or setups or fancy fingers. You pick a mii, you pick a special, you pick a tag, a stage, and you can start the game when custom moves are off.

Things I don't see directly defined by the game are:
- Default specials being always labeled as "1"
- Mii specials unusable when customs are set to off.
- Future tournament rules posted within the game.

I call default specials "1" because the default value of a special is "1".
I've stated my position on the "customs off/on" toggle.

So despite them not being a problem, despite the dev's allowing it, and despite a good majority of competitive players preferring it to be this way (and I mean from more than just this simple poll), you don't want it to be this way.


....ok

You're almost as bad as Sakurai is when listening to what the competitive fanbase wants

Correct, because custom moves on Mii Fighters are custom and I am against customs. This argument is about making a special distinction with Miis and I'm against this distinction, not against the moves themselves.

 

[CursedJay]

It is based on a JUSTIFIABLE definition of customs. Why should I fluff up my opinion when I've stated a clear, robust definition of custom moves that make sense?

Because your opinion is, to quote myself:

based on absolute air.

You have a definition, but absolutely no reasoning. It is a bastardization of a viable arguement.

 

[Doruge]

And the problem is that, like I've already stated, that is not a good definition and I can defend that. My definition is better. I don't want to sound arrogant, but as I've already said, merely being able to select a Mii that has custom moves without the custom toggle on does not mean the character has no custom moves.

Why is your definition better? Because it's "justifiable"? So is mine, and the game actually supports my definition while it directly contradicts yours. There's no reason that your opinion should take precedent over the game's, just because YOU think it's "better".

 

[GwJ]

You haven't actually explained how that definition is less valid
You've just used your arbitrary definition again and pointed out how they're different.

It's not arbitrary. I've explained my definition several times. Scroll up if you want to read it again.

You have a definition, but absolutely no reasoning. It is a bastardization of a viable arguement.

See the above.

Why is your definition better? Because it's "justifiable"? So is mine, and the game actually supports my definition while it directly contradicts yours. There's no reason that your opinion should take precedent over the game's, just because YOU think it's "better".

I've argued that the definition I've proposed is more justifiable than yours. Being able to select DK with a 2311 moveset does not properly define what custom is. You can reduce it further than that. What about 2311 DK makes it custom. It's the MOVES that make a character custom as opposed to the default. When we're talking about default and custom, we're talking about the MOVES. I don't care at all what the labels say. We know what a custom move is and calling it not a custom because you don't have to press the custom button to select it is playing with words in my opinion. (inb4 just your opinion)

 

[Ghostbone]

It is based on a JUSTIFIABLE definition of customs. Why should I fluff up my opinion when I've stated a clear, robust definition of custom moves that make sense?

Everyone else: Yo GwJ, here's a bunch of reasons we should use the game's definition, and that your definition is less competitive.
GwJ: Nu-uh my definition is fine.

And the problem is that, like I've already stated, that is not a good definition and I can defend that. My definition is better. I don't want to sound arrogant, but as I've already said, merely being able to select a Mii that has custom moves without the custom toggle on does not mean the character has no custom moves.

GwJ: My arbitrary definition is still better guys despite the fact that it has no competitive merit.

I call default specials "1" because the default value of a special is "1".
I've stated my position on the "customs off/on" toggle.

GwJ: lets restate my arbitrary definition incase anyone forgot.

Correct, because custom moves on Mii Fighters are custom and I am against customs. This argument is about making a special distinction with Miis and I'm against this distinction, not against the moves themselves.

GwJ: Lets use my definition again, which still hasn't been justified.

Please, actually justify your definition.
If it's more competitive, please explain how mii's specials that are allowed by default make the game uncompetitive in some way. But if i remember correctly, you already admitted that they're not uncompetitive.

It's not arbitrary. I've explained my definition several times. Scroll up if you want to read it again.

GwJ: It's not arbitrary because I say it's not, I'm going to ignore everyone elses arguments about why it's arbitrary, the primary one being that it's not the game's definition.'

Your argument is so ridiculously circular.
It boils down to, "miis have custom moves because I define them as customs. Since I define them as customs they are customs, and customs should be banned."

 

[-Xeroskia.]

I call default specials "1" because the default value of a special is "1".
I've stated my position on the "customs off/on" toggle.

There's nothing robust about "It's default because 1 comes before 2 and 3 and those are the only numbers here". The only thing supporting "default specials" as a concept is that when customs are off, all characters except for the Mii Fighters, have only 4 usable specials. It just so happens that those specials are also the same as the #1 special for all those characters.
.
None of this applies to the Mii Fighters because all their specials are available at all times. Default in this sense is whatever one decides. This reasoning is fully backed by the game engine. Yours is circumstantial, and I'm not seeing your proof to support it that mine didn't refute.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Correct, because custom moves on Mii Fighters are custom and I am against customs. This argument is about making a special distinction with Miis and I'm against this distinction, not against the moves themselves.

Well, I and many others don't think that way. So I believe there should be some sort of way to actually vote on such a matter. Regardless of how it's done. It doesn't matter who you are, you can't justify what is right or wrong alone.

Also, why are you against customs exactly?