Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[san.]

I still haven't seen the argument against the UI allowing me to use miis in Customs Off setting other than a nuh uh honestly. All I see are straw mans that aren't worth responding to.

 

[LimitCrown]

I still haven't seen the argument against the UI allowing me to use miis in Customs Off setting other than a nuh uh honestly. All I see are straw mans that aren't worth responding to.

Why, just because the game allows the Mii Fighters' custom moves to be used in versus mode when the customization setting is off, should the tournaments that prohibit custom moves alllow the Mii Fighters to use theirs? There are quite a few cases wherein we disregard what the game does. The claim that the characters didn't have default special moves is false, and because they do, there isn't any valid reason for their moveset to not be restricted to the default like the other characters' movesets. I also see either denial that allowing the Mii Fighters to use their custom moves, which would give them an advantage that the other characters wouldn't have, would be giving them preferential treatment; or claims that the comparison between Palutena and the Mii Fighters isn't valid despite the fact that the way that their custom moves were designed is very similar.

 

[san.]

Why, just because the game allows the Mii Fighters' custom moves to be used in versus mode when the customization setting is off, should the tournaments that prohibit custom moves alllow the Mii Fighters to use theirs? There are quite a few cases wherein we disregard what the game does.

We choose the game's settings and we choose a selection of stages available to us. They are all selectable or have the ability to toggle it on or off. We follow the game on almost all decisions outside of exploits/tournament flow such as dave's stupid rule, striking, etc. and decisions made by the game that may not deliver a proper verdict, such as sudden death. The less in the hands of random people and more in the hands of the game for competitive play, the better. People should only intervene when it disrupts the competitive viability of the game, such as banning things. What's happening is banning an option freely available that's not really bannable. Not really sure which "we" group is disregarding what the game does, otherwise we wouldn't be able to play the game.

The claim that the characters didn't have default special moves is false, and because they do, there isn't any valid reason for their moveset to not be restricted to the default like the other characters' movesets. I also see either denial that allowing the Mii Fighters to use their custom moves, which would give them an advantage that the other characters wouldn't have, would be giving them preferential treatment; or claims that the comparison between Palutena and the Mii Fighters isn't valid despite the fact that the way that their custom moves were designed is very similar.

Keep it to my argument, please, since I'm not talking about any of this that quite frankly won't go anywhere on either side of the argument. All I have so far is people disregard the game and that makes no sense.

 

[Jigglymaster]

You know I feel like im kinda being ignored here because you all keep going over the same arguments over and over.

So I'm going to say this one more time.

For all the people who didn't dedicate themselves to maining the Mii Fighters and found that they preferred the alternate specials of their character that practically changed them entirely (Having moves like Feint Jump, Ultimate Uppercut, and Helicopter Kick are NOWHERE NEAR the same as playing with Head-on-assualt, shotput and Soaring Axe kick respectively)

I ask this.

What are we supposed to do? We were okay with having custom moves on because it let us use what we wanted, but if people don't want custom moves, then we'll just use the moves anyways since the game still lets us even with customs off, but then you tell us we can't have that either. So there basically becomes no competitive scene for custom mii fighters and then we just rot because thats the character we've been playing since the 3DS era.

So what? Tell it to me straight

"Sorry, you can't play your main because we find it selfish."

That's what you want to say, so say it. I know its what you want to say because its pretty obvious at this point. And like I said, I'm quitting smash as a result. Remove some of your fanbase over a dumb decision. I don't care. I got EVO and I can go "neh neh neh neh I got to play in a national tournament with my main " and then quit a happy man.

It's you guys that disappoint me in terms of a smash fanbase. The fact that you would kill off a players main character just because you want to. Thats all it boils down to really. But don't listen to me, keep arguing the same thing back and forth and watch nothing progress.

 

[⑨ball]

I still haven't seen the argument against the UI allowing me to use miis in Customs Off setting other than a nuh uh honestly. All I see are straw mans that aren't worth responding to.

Can't speak for anyone else that shares my stance, but for me at least, the issue isn't that players are allowed to use miis. That much can be expected of a TO along with having DLC characters available (if not banned for some reason) and all available legal stages.

It's that non-customs or default tournaments assume the use of default specials/ the ban of special move customization. I suppose if the rule were something more specific like "customs mode off" then it'd be arguable objectively, but it's certainly semantics at that point.

Pretending that mii's 2 sets and 3 sets aren't customs or that their 1 sets aren't their defaults is plainly speaking--disingenuous.
The claim that they should be allowed despite the ban because the UI allows them is an appeal to nature and would be in conflict with other competitive systems we have in place like suicide clauses, percent wins, and in general the way we play competitively.( To clarify I'm not saying that allowing mii customs interferes with these rules but rather stating we do what we feel is right for competitive play and don't follow the game's decision unthinkingly.)

Claiming that miis are much worse without access to their customs is an appeal to emotion.

Posts about how miis were designed to be freely customized ect ect. are strawmen and can honestly be argued with any character.

If the rule is no customization/custom specials, then the question we need to be asking is are the miis other specials considered customs and there is no legitimate reason why they wouldn't be.

For the record, again, I have no issues with customs. Couldn't care less about Helicopter Kick being legal. My only concern is the exception to the rule TOs would be giving 3 characters for arbitrary reasons.

What are we supposed to do?

Deal with it like every other player who wants to use custom moves?

if people don't want custom moves, then we'll just use the moves anyways since the game still lets us even with customs off

This. This is the issue right here and it sounds really silly when you separate it from the rest of the dramatics. This logic is on par with rules saying equipment is banned, but you chose random and got some so it should be ok because the game let you. It's not the game that is saying no customs, it's the TO.

So what? Tell it to me straight

"Sorry, you can't play your main because we find it selfish."

It's more like
"Sorry, you can't play your main with customs because that's the rule we have in place for this tournament."

But don't listen to me, keep arguing the same thing back and forth and watch nothing progress.

Nothing is progressing because in my opinion we're fighting for the wrong things. We're the equivalent of a debate team arguing with each other over whether we should present one case or another.

If we have to choose between the compromise of only three characters getting customs or none then obviously those in support of customs like myself will take the former, but I don't believe those are the only options available to us as a community. I think customs on completely is a much better decision and would rather strive towards a metagame in which everyone can use their optimized sets with the added ability to switch as the MU so demands it.

If I'm speaking personally, I in no way want to see you as the best representation of Mii Brawler quit. Nor do I want to discourage any other Mii mains from investing in their characters. I simply want the best competitive experience to be available for everyone.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

If I'm speaking personally, I in no way want to see you as the best representation of Mii Brawler quit. Nor do I want to discourage any other Mii mains from investing in their characters. I simply want the best competitive experience to be available for everyone.

Telling a Brawler main "Sorry your character's recovery is almost as bad as Little Mac's and they gain none of the advantages he does in return. Live with it; you're not getting anything else" does a hell of a lot to discourage Brawler players from investing in their character. 1111 Brawler is worthless. Arguably the worst character in the game. This is coming from someone who has spent significant time playing as Zelda. 1111 Brawler is worse than Zelda. Anyone forced to play 1111 Brawler rightly ought to quit and go spend their time doing something more fun.

Telling a Swordfighter main "Have fun with your 'please nail me on my extremely predictable recovery' Up-B 1, astonishingly bad reach for a character with sword-style frame data, and bizarre over-focus on both a situational close range projectile and close-range counter in what should by all rights be a flexible jack-of-all-trades character" does a hell of a lot to discourage Swordfighter players from investing in their character. 1111 Swordfighter is extremely easy to gimp for no good reason, and I suspect Trela's going to start having trouble with that once people figure it out.

Telling a Gunner main "sorry your Charge Shot struggles to kill at 140% and most of your other kill moves have hit-retention errors so opponents tend to drop out like they do against Zelda and Duck Hunt" does a hell of a lot to discourage Gunner players from investing in their character. You don't see many Gunner players because the character outright doesn't work properly due to hitbox errors, and taking away their best zoning tools in return for a 'kill move' that doesn't even kill until ridiculously high percentages sure isn't worth it.

Especially when all of these issues are casually fixable by letting the characters function as designed.

"Sorry you can't enjoy your character, we're forcing you to pick the first thing listed for each category on the menu" is, I suspect, not the best competitive experience made available for people who spent months exploring those characters. You pick what you want, like ordering from a menu at a diner. That is the very point of the three Mii Fighters. Anything else is effectively taking what makes them special and ripping it out.

Tell me how making shallow mockeries of these characters is the 'best experience made available'.

 

[Yikarur]

An argument used in favor of the Mii Fighters being able to use their custom moves in tournaments that prohibit custom moves is that it would be unfair if they weren't able to use them, which is an ironic statement. It comes across as very selfish. As other people and I have said before, whether the characters' default special moves are bad doesn't matter. There isn't any reason to make the three characters the exception to the rule.

how is that an ironic statement? now allowing them to use their moves is banning them.
Thats compeltely different from any character. If the character is useless without them should never be an argument.

If we play with customs off, the game allows, by default, the use of any of Mii Fighter's moves.
There is no reason to arbitrarily restricing this.

 

[Tinkerer]

If we have to choose between the compromise of only three characters getting customs or none then obviously those in support of customs like myself will take the former, but I don't believe those are the only options available to us as a community. I think customs on completely is a much better decision and would rather strive towards a metagame in which everyone can use their optimized sets with the added ability to switch as the MU so demands it.

The crux is right here. Those aren't the two options available, but, if after EVO customs turn out not to be popular, they might be the only two options that people will consider. If you're not against the Miis getting their "customs", what's the real problem here, except semantics?

Let's ignore the UI choices for a bit and have it actually be about what it means, on a competitive level, to have only 1111, standard Miis - anyone not lying to themselves will instantly see that it just means the death of Miis as a character. They become so far below any other character in the game that no-one in their right mind would ever use them for anything with a prize. You're effectively banning them. The question then becomes: do you want Miis banned? And really, if you want to randomly ban three characters from the roster - why the hell would you want that? How does that make for the "best competitive experience available" in any way?

Also something to consider: most Japanese tournaments have been running with this exact ruleset (customs off, Mii customization allowed) since the beginning, without any problems.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

It's not even right to really consider them 'customs.' It's better to think of them as Selectable Specials, or a Menu of Specials and you order the ones you want. The design of the character, as part of the very process involved in creating them, assumes you're going to make choices on their moves. You're allowed to skip that step, but it's blatantly laid before you and hard to miss.

It's not even minor move behavior tweaks like Mario's cape variants or fireball variants. These are major changes that massively affect how the resulting Mii Fighter approaches any fight. The game is asking you something like this. Take note that as part of the very act of enabling the character for play, no other characters on the roster are asked this; it's a big deal, a vital part of getting them ready for the fight. Part of their core, if you will.

Brawler: "Do you want an arcing, high damage projectile with poor range and insanely long recovery time, or a chargeable kill move Uppercut, or a reskinned Falcon Punch? Okay, now do you want an auto-combo, a Luigi Missile style horizontal attack, or a spike that is kind of hard to aim but nonetheless does spike? Great... now about recovery. Do you want the most recovery but no kill power, some recovery and some vertical kill power, or very limited recovery but maximum horizontal kill power? Finally, do you want more recovery range on a linear path, a Bowser down-B wannabe, or a multi-kick? Excellent, now go punch someone!" - The idea that any one of these is 'default' is ludicrous, they're such different choices that barring any balance issues it is up to player preference.

Swordfighter: "Do you want a slow, close-range projectile with the ability to cancel out other projectiles, or a faster one easier to use against distant foes, or a Shield Breaker wannabe? Next, do you want horizontal recovery with some arc, horizontal recovery with a 'pass through' effect, or a projectile with multiple firing modes? Recovery... do you want maximum vertical with a possible spike, steerable recovery, or a mix of recovery and protection? Finally... Counter, Cape, or Falcon Kick with a Sword? Great, now go stab someone!" - Same deal here... how do you truly describe any one of these as 'the default'? They all have major differences between one another.

Gunner: "Want a (in theory) kill move, damage racker, or arcing zoning tool? A persistent wall of fire, a homing missile, or a Din's Fire wannabe? Maximum recovery, minimum recovery with a powerful attack, or a downward-attacking recovery kinda like Elwind? Finally... Reflector, area denial tool, or energy-absorber? Great, now go shoot someone!" - These choices also redefine how the character is played. A Grenade Gunner plays extremely differently from a Charge Shot one.

Palutena and Mega Man are the only other characters asked these questions, and their answers are ignored by Customs Off switch. Miis override that Customs Off switch. It is part of their character. Every other character (barring Mega/Palu) is merely making tweaks to existing move behavior: how do you want your Cape to work, how do you want your Blaster to work, how do you want Luma to work, etc.

On Miis, there is no true 'default.' The very act of creating a Mii Swordfighter, Brawler, or Gunner assumes the creator/player is making choices on their 'Build To Order' character!

 

[Tinkerer]

Yeah, one important part of this is that Miis, more so than a lot of characters, are defined by their specials. There's no Mii Fighters that don't use a special as a core ability (arguably Swordfighter, but even that is reaching) - compare that to most other characters, the majority of which have their strengths in their normal moves. If Brawler would've had the normal moves of Captain Falcon, say, and then there were customizable specials on top of that, there'd be a lot less of a problem.

 

[⑨ball]

Tell me how making shallow mockeries of these characters is the 'best experience made available'.

You see, you forgot a word and that seems to be the biggest difference between us: "everyone".

It's that change in perspective that changes posts from "OH, WOE IS ME! WHAT ABOUT ME AND MY MIIS???" to "Wow, customs off makes a large majority of the cast worse characters, why are asking ourselves how to get exceptions to the rule for 3 characters instead of how to keep a customs meta thriving?"

At that point it's a simple matter of understanding there is that division and if in the one that strictly states that customs are not allowed, we should just because a handful of us want to.

The crux is right here. Those aren't the two options available, but, if after EVO customs turn out not to be popular, they might be the only two options that people will consider. If you're not against the Miis getting their "customs", what's the real problem here, except semantics?

If these aren't the only two options, then perhaps it's time to discuss them. Customs have already gone from being the preferred and obvious "true meta" with tons of support behind it, to being something so outcast players are happy Smash 4 isn't getting the stage at EVO.

Putting customs in quotes is cute and all, but as long as we all understand the definition of "default" there should really be no question about whether the 1111 sets for the cast are. It has nothing to do with semantics, it has to do with the community putting a self imposed limit on ALL characters and then giving a pass to three others.

Let's ignore the UI choices for a bit and have it actually be about what it means, on a competitive level, to have only 1111, standard Miis - anyone not lying to themselves will instantly see that it just means the death of Miis as a character. They become so far below any other character in the game that no-one in their right mind would ever use them for anything with a prize. You're effectively banning them. The question then becomes: do you want Miis banned?

This is a strawman and this sh*tty misdirection doesn't get any better as a argument no matter how many times it's used. The sob story of unviable=banned is untrue and will never hold any weight as long as there are other unviable characters.

And really, if you want to randomly ban three characters from the roster - why the hell would you want that?

Instead of saying what I actually want again, and calling doubt on your reading and comprehension skills, let's revisit logic 101 so we can stop doing this.

A strawman is essentially a false argument setup by opposition to be defeated.

ex: John: "I think we should have hamburgers tonight, we've had pizza every other night this week."
Joe: "Wow, John, didn't know you hated pizza and wanted all pizza to wiped from existence. Why do you hate pizza so much?"

Apologies for being so obnoxious, but can we please stop this? It's not helping.

How does that make for the "best competitive experience available" in any way?

You missed everyone just like Pegasus did, which makes me think you haven't read anything up until his most recent post.

The very most basic thing we can do to work towards a good experience for everyone is making sure that the rulesets apply to everyone.

This means if being late for a match means you're disqualified, TOs should not send top players to losers. This means that even if your opponent loses because you survived longer due to an extended KO animation, they are the victors. This means that if customs are banned for 1 character, they are banned for everyone. It's not a hard position to understand.

Also something to consider: most Japanese tournaments have been running with this exact ruleset (customs off, Mii customization allowed) since the beginning, without any problems.

Anecdotal evidence that has literally nothing to do with how we do things here or how they should be done.

It's not even right to really consider them 'customs.' It's better to think of them as Selectable Specials, or a Menu of Specials and you order the ones you want. The design of the character, as part of the very process involved in creating them, assumes you're going to make choices on their moves. You're allowed to skip that step, but it's blatantly laid before you and hard to miss.

Please stop. You can call them alternate specials, a menu of specials or a bucket of powers but it doesn't change the fact that out of 100,000,000 mii creations, after they're created and taken to the customization screen they start with a default set and are given options to change them out just like every other character. You're not ordering anything, you have no power over what numbers are listed before them and even that would have no bearing on whether the preselected options would be considered their defaults.

Palutena and Mega Man are the only other characters asked these questions, and their answers are ignored by Customs Off switch.

Even if they were able to access their customs or alternate specials with customs off it wouldn't be right to let them ignore the rules we might have in place.

Miis override that Customs Off switch. It is part of their character. Every other character (barring Mega/Palu) is merely making tweaks to existing move behavior: how do you want your Cape to work, how do you want your Blaster to work, how do you want Luma to work, etc.

This doesn't matter. Are you really trying to imply that if miis had alternate versions of their moves it would make more sense to disallow their sets in customs off? That's just silly.

Let me propose a question for you and others that hold "The UI lets us use customs so why not?" position. You're running an 16 man customs on tournament. 3 stock, 8 minute, single elimination, no items,no equipment, usual stage bans ect ect.

One player in particular doesn't have a main. He's experimented with the cast and hasn't found one he prefers so he goes random every match. Things go relatively smooth for the most part, some upsets here, a timeout there, this that and the third.

One match however, this player gets Ganondorf. Only this Ganondorf has been loaded with equipment and begins the match with a bobomb in hand as well as being tuned to being a much faster character.

You have rules explicitly stating "no items and no equipment", however the game has let him begin with both.

Is this player in violation of the ruleset, or should he be allowed to play it out because the UI allowed it?

On Miis, there is no true 'default.' The very act of creating a Mii Swordfighter, Brawler, or Gunner assumes the creator/player is making choices on their 'Build To Order' character!

As impassioned as you are about this belief of them having no defaults, it doesn't have a leg to stand on. For something to be
considered default it needs generally two conditions to be filled.

The first is that they are preselected, usually by a program or system outside of your control. For clarity's sake, this means even if specials were not numbered, the option that is always selected for you at the onset of entering the customization screen would be considered default.

The second is that there need to be other options available. You can not default to the only option you have.

By definition Miis like every other character in the game have default specials that they can switch out on the customization screen.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Please stop.

Gladly. I've come to realize I am wasting my time talking to you and the rest of the minority opposing Mii freedom. My goal is better served by other actions now.

I am done with this thread.

 

[Tinkerer]

"OH, WOE IS ME! WHAT ABOUT ME AND MY MIIS???"

Let me propose a question for you and others that hold "The UI lets us use customs so why not?" position. You're running an 16 man customs on tournament. 3 stock, 8 minute, single elimination, no items,no equipment, usual stage bans ect ect.

One player in particular doesn't have a main. He's experimented with the cast and hasn't found one he prefers so he goes random every match. Things go relatively smooth for the most part, some upsets here, a timeout there, this that and the third.

One match however, this player gets Ganondorf. Only this Ganondorf has been loaded with equipment and begins the match with a bobomb in hand as well as being tuned to being a much faster character.

You have rules explicitly stating "no items and no equipment", however the game has let him begin with both.

Is this player in violation of the ruleset, or should he be allowed to play it out because the UI allowed it?

If you want to give people an awkward lesson on what strawman means, don't use them yourself. You're putting words into other people's mouths and proposing impossible, theorycrafted scenarios (as random is banned in all custom tournaments, or only allowed to random the character, then reset it to be without equipment). Also calm down man, this isn't GameFAQs.

The whole "Should Miis have their entire moveset available?"/"Are options 2 and 3 for Miis customs?" issue IS an unending one, as this thread (and the poll) shows pretty clearly - it isn't "no question", and quite obviously so. That's why I mentioned ignoring the UI (as it's just a dumb technical argument that won't matter for TOs anyway).

Whatever way you slice it, you're killing Miis with this. That's not a strawman, that's the way it is - look at the state of the Mii forums, at any Mii professional player. Yes, there might be other unviable characters (though at least they have a chance of getting into decent tiers with patches, as they aren't as dependent on their specials), but why would you ever want to create three completely unviable characters? You still haven't given an answer to that. Who possibly even GAINS from banning these characters at all?

I'm also not completely sure why tournament results with rules proposed here in one of the biggest scenes in the world isn't relevant to this conversation, don't just hand-wave that.

 

[⑨ball]

Gladly. I've come to realize I am wasting my time talking to you and the rest of the minority opposing Mii freedom. My goal is better served by other actions now.

I am done with this thread.

I see. Good luck with your letters.

If you want to give people an awkward lesson on what strawman means, don't use them yourself. You're putting words into other people's mouths and proposing impossible, theorycrafted scenarios (as random is banned in all custom tournaments, or only allowed to random the character, then reset it to be without equipment).

It obviously wasn't a good one if you think you quoted one. If you feel I've misrepresented or put up a false argument feel free to call me out on it, but I doubt you will as I've been very careful to avoid such things.

I haven't put words into anyone's mouth either. If you're referring to the first thing you quoted, then the word you want is 'paraphrasing'.

The other thing you probably meant is 'hypothetical situation', since theorycrafting revolves more so around game mechanics(ex: Samus should do reasonably well against Luigi because she has long range, strong projectiles and a decent OoS option, while he has low mobility, no traction and relies heavily on grabs).

Hypotheticals are great tools to help analyze the core of issues, because they aren't restricted by what we already know which is why I used it.

If I ask you 'would you buy a medicine that lets you live for ever that has a 1% chance of killing you on the spot in excruciating pain ?', there isn't an issue with whether or not medicine like that can be made, because we're looking for whether or not such a thing would actually be worth it.

The thing you need to ask yourself in regards to my hypothetical question isn't 'why wouldn't random be banned' but 'should the UI hold reign over the ruleset?'

Also calm down man, this isn't GameFAQs.

I tried to cut down on the post length by ignoring as many things unrelated to my stance as possible while also responding to legitimate(?) points/concerns without resorting to reaction images or the like. Trying to avoid repeat arguments and circle jerking but it seems that's just the way these things go.

The whole "Should Miis have their entire moveset available?"/"Are options 2 and 3 for Miis customs?" issue IS an unending one, as this thread (and the poll) shows pretty clearly - it isn't "no question", and quite obviously so.

It's not and it isn't. The poll isn't "Do you consider specials 2 and 3 for mii's customs" but "Would you allow custom mii's in tournament?".

That's why I mentioned ignoring the UI (as it's just a dumb technical argument that won't matter for TOs anyway).

So we agree that ignoring the UI is a dumb technical argument that won't matter for TOs. Did I take this out of context somehow? If not I don't think we're arguing the same topic at all.

Whatever way you slice it, you're killing Miis with this. That's not a strawman, that's the way it is-

That's an opinion. An arguably grounded one, but an opinion none the less, and it has no weight whatsoever in the argument. Just like if this thread was focused on Palutena or Megaman.

Yes, there might be other unviable characters (though at least they have a chance of getting into decent tiers with patches, as they aren't as dependent on their specials),

This is an assumption, and an ungrounded one as we already know that miis have been patched before (normals and specials) so we know they are also subject to change through patches. We know that many characters have not gotten any patches that positively affected their viability (WFT for example has only been nerfed in every iteration she was changed--though you could argue they were bug fixes). We also know that there are plenty of characters that could be considered dependent on their specials as many completely change the way characters play.

but why would you ever want to create three completely unviable characters? You still haven't given an answer to that. Who possibly even GAINS from banning these characters at all?

I don't want to create three unviable characters. I want an equal application of rules to all players and their characters. If this happens to make some characters unviable, then it's just a byproduct. Continuously pretending that restricted to 1111 like the rest of the cast = BANNED doesn't make it an actual thing no matter how many times it's repeated. It's also unrelated to issue and can be applied to any character that might want the same preferential treatment being asked for here.

I'm also not completely sure why tournament results with rules proposed here in one of the biggest scenes in the world isn't relevant to this conversation, don't just hand-wave that.

It's not relevant because it's not very prudent to confuse what is and or has been, with what ought to be.

For decades here in America we've established a tip system between patrons and waiters/waitresses where it's expected to give them money for doing their jobs, rather than expecting their employers to pay them the actual wages they deserved. It's what we've done, what we're doing and you can certainly say it's not really hurting anyone to continue doing so.

But is it right? Should we be doing this? These are the same questions we're asking here and why saying "WELL IN [insert country here]--!" doesn't give us much if anything in terms of answering these questions.

 

[Tinkerer]

Yo, can you please make your posts one coherent argument rather than this massive list of quotes, it's close to unreadable. You're also only reading my post while quoting it, resulting in you asking "'should the UI hold reign over the ruleset?" and then getting answered that by my post later on - which you then went on to read wrong.

Exactly why does there need to be this equal application of rules to all players and their characters, if the characters and their specials in this case are this vaguely defined? Again, who gains, here? I see only losers.

Your waiter comparison is absolutely nonsensical - Japan has had this ruleset for the same game we're playing, and it works, without complaints. That's relevant, because it's a non-partisan example of somewhere where they implemented this, and shown whether it has problems or not. It doesn't, so hey, we can use it as evidence. Plus, this thread isn't for just America anyway (which in itself also differs in rulesets state by state, so there's no set "how we're doing it").

In the end, it's on your head to actually show this setup (no customs, customizable Mii fighters - which is what the poll is about, not just Miis in any sort of tournament) has any real problems, at all, except a vague "equal opportunity for everyone". What's the actual concrete problem you have here? Are you expecting complaints? If it hits on a lot of community resistance, then sure.

 

[san.]

The community should intervene if something is ban worthy or if the game has no competitive answer such as Bo3, DSR, etc. Otherwise you just get random arbitrary rules.

Equipment was tested and deemed ban worthy, so a rule that bans custom random should be put into effect since you can't prevent the equipment problem easily. If it is not ban worthy, it shouldn't be messed with.

 

[LimitCrown]

how is that an ironic statement? now allowing them to use their moves is banning them.
Thats compeltely different from any character. If the character is useless without them should never be an argument.

If we play with customs off, the game allows, by default, the use of any of Mii Fighter's moves.
There is no reason to arbitrarily restricing this.

If the characters were actually banned, then choosing them on the Character Select Screen would be prohibited. Therefore, simply limiting the characters' movesets to the default ones like every other character in the tournaments that prohibit custom moves is completely dissimilar to banning the characters in those tournaments. Comparing the two would be making a false analogy. Whether the game allows them to use their custom moves in that instance is irrelevant; if the tournament prohibits the usage of custom moves, then the Mii Fighters shouldn't be able to use them.

We choose the game's settings and we choose a selection of stages available to us. They are all selectable or have the ability to toggle it on or off. We follow the game on almost all decisions outside of exploits/tournament flow such as dave's stupid rule, striking, etc. and decisions made by the game that may not deliver a proper verdict, such as sudden death. The less in the hands of random people and more in the hands of the game for competitive play, the better. People should only intervene when it disrupts the competitive viability of the game, such as banning things. What's happening is banning an option freely available that's not really bannable. Not really sure which "we" group is disregarding what the game does, otherwise we wouldn't be able to play the game.



Keep it to my argument, please, since I'm not talking about any of this that quite frankly won't go anywhere on either side of the argument. All I have so far is people disregard the game and that makes no sense.

Every other character essentially has many of their custom move options banned/prohibited in the tournaments that don't allow custom moves to be used. There isn't any reason why the Mii Fighters should be excluded from the rule. If the rules are going to be enforced in a tournament, then there there shouldn't be any exceptions made whatsoever. As I said before, allowing them to use their custom moves would give them an advantage that other characters would like to have, and it is basically giving them preferential treatment. Also, Palutena, a character who has very unique custom moves like the Mii Fighters, can't use hers in those tournaments.

Also, that is related to your argument, which is why I brought it up. Besides the false claim that the Mii Fighters don't have defaults or don't have custom moves, some of the other arguments that I've seen the others use in order to support their belief that the Mii Fighters should be able to use their custom moves in tournaments can be paraphrased as "It takes away the fun from the game" and other appeal to emotion arguments. These aren't even valid arguments at all. Whether the characters aren't as good as they could be with their custom moves doesn't matter. Also, being fair and having the characters be on an equal footing are not the same, so using Sheik as justification for the Mii Fighters to be the exception to the rule is fallacious as well.

 

[Yikarur]

I don't want to create three unviable characters. I want an equal application of rules to all players and their characters. If this happens to make some characters unviable, then it's just a byproduct. Continuously pretending that restricted to 1111 like the rest of the cast = BANNED doesn't make it an actual thing no matter how many times it's repeated. It's also unrelated to issue and can be applied to any character that might want the same preferential treatment being asked for here.

Equal application of rules = no exceptional extra rules = Mii's are able to use customs because the game says so.
Is that so hard to understand?
By restricting Mii's to 1111 you don't want equal application of rules. You want extra rules to restrict 3 characters.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Deal with it like every other player who wants to use custom moves?

I simply want the best competitive experience to be available for everyone.

So quit for the better of the community. Got it. Good to know that it doesn't involve me.

Let it be a lesson to all of you mii mains that it was a mistake to play this character. Sorry, it's just the rules.

 

[Tinkerer]

Also, that is related to your argument, which is why I brought it up. Besides the false claim that the Mii Fighters don't have defaults or don't have custom moves, some of the other arguments that I've seen the others use in order to support their belief that the Mii Fighters should be able to use their custom moves in tournaments can be paraphrased as "It takes away the fun from the game" and other appeal to emotion arguments. These aren't even valid arguments at all. Whether the characters aren't as good as they could be with their custom moves doesn't matter. Also, being fair and having the characters be on an equal footing are not the same, so using Sheik as justification for the Mii Fighters to be the exception to the rule is fallacious as well.

Same question as to 9ball: who exactly do you think you're helping with this? Regardless of any of of UI arguments (it's impossible to make a case for developer's intent either way, though it's hard to defend the stance that they weren't meant to be customzied), do you actually think there'd be that much of an upset over allowing customized Mii fighters to play? In the end, all you're doing is taking away from the game based on a misjudged belief in a vague fairness idea that affects nobody positively, and a bunch of people negatively. And again, there's competitive scenes in the world where this ruleset has been adopted without any sort of problem.

 

[Flamecircle]

Same question as to 9ball: who exactly do you think you're helping with this? Regardless of any of of UI arguments (it's impossible to make a case for developer's intent either way, though it's hard to defend the stance that they weren't meant to be customzied), do you actually think there'd be that much of an upset over allowing customized Mii fighters to play? In the end, all you're doing is taking away from the game based on a misjudged belief in a vague fairness idea that affects nobody positively, and a bunch of people negatively. And again, there's competitive scenes in the world where this ruleset has been adopted without any sort of problem.

The reason mii's are probably (basically) banned too is because it creates an inconsistency in the rules. If Miis could go custom, everyone else would think: "why can't we use customs?" And really, there's no reason they can't other than: "oh, I have to press this "customs on" button, too much effort."

Banning custom Miis allows us to all suffer together, fairly. Even if it's stupid.

Although I guess DLC mains are happy.

 

[Yikarur]

There is no inconsistency. It's inconsistent to restrict them to 1111.

 

[Flamecircle]

It's inconsistent if a character can use customs and others can't. I REALIZE THAT YES, THEY ARE USABLE WITHOUT TURNING ON CUSTOM FIGHTERS, but the distinction is so fine it's irrelevant.

 

[Yikarur]

It's inconsistent if a character can use customs and others can't. I REALIZE THAT YES, THEY ARE USABLE WITHOUT TURNING ON CUSTOM FIGHTERS, but the distinction is so fine it's irrelevant.

Then argue with Sakurai and not with us. He created the "inconsistency" in the first place.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I'm trying to understand the mii-fighter argument. If you could summarize it that would be appreciated.

The way I see it, the difference between a customs meta and a non-customs meta is in the non-customs game, everyone has no choice in their moveset. That is the defining difference, no exceptions.There are plenty of characters who don't have any broken customs, are usually placed low on the tier list, and have customs that are preferred to their standard set. To me that does not seem fair that those types of character are denied their customs when people think Mii fighters should get every move. It would be a double standard to not restrict mii fighters. Palutena even has a similar case to mii fighters where her customs are not variants and are unlocked from the start, yet her players play consistently with every other fighter. 1111 when custom are off, and whatever suits them when customs are on.

 

[Tinkerer]

The reason why people are against that in the case of Miis is because they are completely designed with customization in mind. Even the worst normal character has somewhat synergy between their specials, whereas the specials for the Miis seem to be in completely random order, and their 1111 sets don't make any sense - why 1111, even, and not a picked combination of their moves? It's hard to argue for the intent of the developer's, though.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I'm trying to understand the mii-fighter argument. If you could summarize it that would be appreciated.

The way I see it, the difference between a customs meta and a non-customs meta is in the non-customs game, everyone has no choice in their moveset. That is the defining difference, no exceptions.There are plenty of characters who don't have any broken customs, are usually placed low on the tier list, and have customs that are preferred to their standard set. To me that does not seem fair that those types of character are denied their customs when people think Mii fighters should get every move. It would be a double standard to not restrict mii fighters. Palutena even has a similar case to mii fighters where her customs are not variants and are unlocked from the start, yet her players play consistently with every other fighter. 1111 when custom are off, and whatever suits them when customs are on.

The difference between customs and non-customs actually seems to be in customs on, characters can use all the moves and even equipment (I know we don''t but it's still possible in the mode). In customs off, only the miis can be customized and no one can use equipment (thankfully it is all turned off even for miis, that would just make things 10 times worse).

And the sad thing is, I don't think we'd be having this argument if all the characters didn't have customs or we openly embraced a customs metagame. I want to see everybody's custom moves as it seems others here do but a lot of the community wants to sweep them under the rug as if they don't exist, but they can't do that for miis because that's how they are designed to be played even if the customs switch is off. That's their gimmick, and unless it's game breaking it makes sense to use said gimmick for said gimmicky character as long as that custom button is off.

 

[tecmo]

If it's a customs off tournament then mii fighters,like every other character,should use there default 1,1,1,1 moveset. Why is this even a debate?

 

[TheHypnotoad]

You know I feel like im kinda being ignored here because you all keep going over the same arguments over and over.

So I'm going to say this one more time.

For all the people who didn't dedicate themselves to maining the Mii Fighters and found that they preferred the alternate specials of their character that practically changed them entirely (Having moves like Feint Jump, Ultimate Uppercut, and Helicopter Kick are NOWHERE NEAR the same as playing with Head-on-assualt, shotput and Soaring Axe kick respectively)

I ask this.

What are we supposed to do? We were okay with having custom moves on because it let us use what we wanted, but if people don't want custom moves, then we'll just use the moves anyways since the game still lets us even with customs off, but then you tell us we can't have that either. So there basically becomes no competitive scene for custom mii fighters and then we just rot because thats the character we've been playing since the 3DS era.

So what? Tell it to me straight

"Sorry, you can't play your main because we find it selfish."

That's what you want to say, so say it. I know its what you want to say because its pretty obvious at this point. And like I said, I'm quitting smash as a result. Remove some of your fanbase over a dumb decision. I don't care. I got EVO and I can go "neh neh neh neh I got to play in a national tournament with my main " and then quit a happy man.

It's you guys that disappoint me in terms of a smash fanbase. The fact that you would kill off a players main character just because you want to. Thats all it boils down to really. But don't listen to me, keep arguing the same thing back and forth and watch nothing progress.

Playing Devil's Advocate here: You could still use 1111 in a non-customs tournament. If you never learned how to play your character with a 1111 set, then you were relying on customs as a crutch.

do you actually think there'd be that much of an upset over allowing customized Mii fighters to play?

People whine about Helicopter Kick all the time. I can guarantee you that certain players *cough*Nakat*cough*Trevonte*cough* will complain if Helicopter Kick is allowed.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Playing Devil's Advocate here: You could still use 1111 in a non-customs tournament. If you never learned how to play your character with a 1111 set, then you were relying on customs as a crutch.

I don't see 1111 Mii Brawler as the same character as 2122. They require different play styles and uses of techniques such as Feint Jump. It adds a whole new element to the character that makes him something he wasn't before. You're vastly changing the play style of 3 of his special moves. That's a big thing. Call it a crutch if you want, but I see it as playing an entirely different character all together.


Also, to further expand on this, would this not mean that every single sheik main is using her as a crutch? It just so happens that she's pretty god like with her 1111 loadout (lucky her), considering one special of hers lets her skip the neutral game, and the other two kill. But they get away with it because they got lucky with all their moves being 1111.

 

[Divemissile]

I think customs should be on in general. I don't see why mii characters should get special treatment just because customs make them better. Should we allow Charizard and Palutena to have customs too? They become better characters with customs as well.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I think customs should be on in general. I don't see why mii characters should get special treatment just because customs make them better. Should we allow Charizard and Palutena to have customs too? They become better characters with customs as well.

Stopping by as a few interesting remarks came up. This was one of them, and it deserves a simple answer.

Yes.

There are only a handful of custom moves that legitimately cause problems. The others are either sidegrades, or significantly help bad characters. If a few customs mess up the game, it is fair to ban those specific moves outright while letting others have their fun.

One can argue this is a subjective criteria. I suppose it is.

I also suppose any player in their right mind ought to know when to quit using David Sirlin's writings as an absolute answer to everything ever in a video game and realize "Wait, this particular thing is straight-up dumb. I should not use it." This includes things that are designed to make as many matches go to Time Over as possible.

I want open move selection for the Miis because that's how they're supposed to work and limiting them to 1111 makes them all garbage. At the same time, as a separate matter, I want Customs on for the rest of the cast because I think that makes them more fun too.

They are separate topics (though I admit they are related), but my stance is simple: Allow things that make the game fun without turning the competition into a farce. So if Charizard wants his custom moves, I say let it rock until we have proof it actually causes a problem.

 

[tecmo]

Stopping by as a few interesting remarks came up. This was one of them, and it deserves a simple answer.

Yes.

There are only a handful of custom moves that legitimately cause problems. The others are either sidegrades, or significantly help bad characters. If a few customs mess up the game, it is fair to ban those specific moves outright while letting others have their fun.

One can argue this is a subjective criteria. I suppose it is.

I also suppose any player in their right mind ought to know when to quit using David Sirlin's writings as an absolute answer to everything ever in a video game and realize "Wait, this particular thing is straight-up dumb. I should not use it." This includes things that are designed to make as many matches go to Time Over as possible.

I want open move selection for the Miis because that's how they're supposed to work and limiting them to 1111 makes them all garbage. At the same time, as a separate matter, I want Customs on for the rest of the cast because I think that makes them more fun too.

They are separate topics (though I admit they are related), but my stance is simple: Allow things that make the game fun without turning the competition into a farce. So if Charizard wants his custom moves, I say let it rock until we have proof it actually causes a problem.

The question of customs versus no customs is unrelated to this thread. This discussion is about the mii fighters using their non default sets (anything besides 1,1,1,1) in custom off tournaments.

With that being said how can anyone justify giving the mii fighters access to their customs and not samus palutena DK and other low tier characters.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

continuing in a full customs meta gets tricky. For one, the developers have not been balancing custom moves. The only time custom specials are changed are when the default special gets altered (like ike's quickdraw having a shorter windup in the latest patch). The other problems are the custom moves that people want to ban. Villager's and DK's customs are only scratching the surface of broken customs. There are a lot of unbalanced moves. Then once we start banning, it becomes extremely debatable when we should stop. Nothing is black and white on that front.
Personally, if the argument for using customs is to make bad characters better, we should just wait for balance patches. The appeal of customs should be the option to approach each match differently rather than giving characters straight buffs by using moves that are objectively better than the original.
On a more related note, the idea that customs let you alter your moveset (and size if you're a mii) based on who you're fighting is what I think is unfair about miis having access to their custom while others do not.

At the very least, if mii fighters do get their customs we should have some standard movesets in place so miis aren't a constant headache for TO

 

[hey_there]

Why, just because the game allows the Mii Fighters' custom moves to be used in versus mode when the customization setting is off, should the tournaments that prohibit custom moves alllow the Mii Fighters to use theirs?

I just wanted to point out that this sentiment is like saying we should prohibit characters from using moves that spawn items(Gyro, Bombs, Banana, etc.) because otherwise we are violating the spirit of "items: off". You can swap in "items" into that sentence without changing the logic:

Why, just because the game allows the Links to summon items to be used in versus mode when the item setting is off, should the tournaments that prohibit items alllow the Links to use theirs?

how can anyone justify giving the mii fighters access to their customs and not samus palutena DK and other low tier characters.

How can anyone justify reducing the ability of good characters to low tier status by removing their unique mechanics on the grounds that said mechanics offends their personal sense of justice?

If someone wants to play with custom moves on Palutena/Samus/DK, they should focus on the custom metagame which is totally unrelated to this discussion. When talking about the Mii fighters in the context of the standard game we should pretend customs for every other character simply don't exist because, functionally, they don't.

 

[Divemissile]

If someone wants to play with custom moves on Palutena/Samus/DK, they should focus on the custom metagame which is totally unrelated to this discussion. When talking about the Mii fighters in the context of the standard game we should pretend customs for every other character simply don't exist because, functionally, they don't.

So, if DK/Palutena mains want customs, they should go to the custom metagame. But if Mii mains want customs, we should give them special treatment and let them use customs even in non custom tournaments. Nice double standard.

 

[Auramaniji]

Just...do it.
No more excuses about

• Size
• Different Combos
• 1111 is standard because mii was "Born with it". 1111 plays so lame with the tools provided.
• Legality with streaming (Why? The Vegeta mii was on RushHourSmash many times and nobody bats an eye.)

 

[Ghostbone]

So, if DK/Palutena mains want customs, they should go to the custom metagame. But if Mii mains want customs, we should give them special treatment and let them use customs even in non custom tournaments. Nice double standard.

They're not customs
The miis can use all their special moves with customs: off
Therefore the game doesn't consider them custom moves.

What's so hard to understand about this guys.

In a customs off metagame, you have to justify banning 6 specials from each mii, since the game lets you use them by default. And there isn't really any justfication for that aside from other players whining about it being "unfair" (which is as dumb as whining it's unfair that Peach can spawn items so we should ban turnip pull). When customs are turned off miis can still use all of their specials, this doesn't apply to other characters, they're inherently different. How many times do we have to repeat the same dam thing.

 

[LimitCrown]

I just wanted to point out that this sentiment is like saying we should prohibit characters from using moves that spawn items(Gyro, Bombs, Banana, etc.) because otherwise we are violating the spirit of "items: off". You can swap in "items" into that sentence without changing the logic:

Turning off items in the options gets rid of the ones that can randomly appear. You know, the ones that aren't generated by a character's special move. The purpose of disabling the randomly-generated items is to reduce the amount of randomness in a game, and a Bob-omb won't coincidentally spawn right next to you when you perform a smash attack.

How can anyone justify reducing the ability of good characters to low tier status by removing their unique mechanics on the grounds that said mechanics offends their personal sense of justice?

If someone wants to play with custom moves on Palutena/Samus/DK, they should focus on the custom metagame which is totally unrelated to this discussion. When talking about the Mii fighters in the context of the standard game we should pretend customs for every other character simply don't exist because, functionally, they don't.

As many others have said before, whether their default special moves aren't as good as their custom moves is irrelevant. Also, Palutena has the exact same "gimmick", but she can't use her custom moves in those tournaments that prohibit custom moves. She is basically unable to use one of her main mechanics. Therefore, people should not complain about a restriction of the Mii Fighters' moveset to their default one being "unfair" because it obviously isn't and another character with the same mechanic can't use hers.

 

[Ghostbone]

Turning off items in the options gets rid of the ones that can randomly appear. You know, the ones that aren't generated by a character's special move. The purpose of disabling the randomly-generated items is to reduce the amount of randomness in a game, and a Bob-omb won't coincidentally spawn right next to you when you perform a smash attack.

Peach's turnip pull is random (if you've never seen peach pull a bomb-omb and have it instantly explode from the opponent's attack you haven't played smash enough), G&W's side-b is random yet we don't ban those.
It comes down to the fact that items can be toggled off in the game, so we're justified as a community to turn them off. Similarly, we can toggle customs on or off, but we should respect what the game considers as customs or not when we use that toggle.

As many others have said before, whether their default special moves aren't as good as their custom moves is irrelevant. Also, Palutena has the exact same "gimmick", but she can't use her custom moves in those tournaments that prohibit custom moves.

She can't use her custom moves because the game doesn't allow her to use her custom moves.

She is essentially unable to use one of her main mechanics. Therefore, people should not complain about a restriction of the Mii Fighters' moveset to their default one being "unfair" because it obviously isn't and another character with the same mechanic can't use hers.

Yes they should complain, as none of their specials are considered custom moves by the game (they're usable with customs off)

Nobody else is banned from using their specials that the game allows them to use, banning 6 specials from each mii is as justified as banning bouncing fish. How is it fair to arbitrarily ban the use of a character's special moves.