Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[BornABrawler]

We know.

I realize you probably know, but for those who do not wish to go through every single post that claims that they voted differently, it is more convenient. I am also doing this for myself personally, so hopefully it isn't too big an issue.

 

[Doruge]

From a gameplay standpoint, in regard to the way that those characters' custom special moves were designed, the Mii Fighters and Palutena aren't really different. If a tournament prohibits custom moves, then regardless of the fact that the Miis are able to use their custom moves in Smash Mode while the customization setting is disabled, their moveset should be restricted to the default like the others.

Palutena is affected by customs being off. Miis are not. How can you possibly say that this isn't a difference? And you still haven't provided a good reason as to why their moveset should be restricted.

 

[LimitCrown]

Palutena is affected by customs being off. Miis are not. How can you possibly say that this isn't a difference? And you still haven't provided a good reason as to why their moveset should be restricted.

I said that from a gameplay standpoint and how their custom special moves are in relation to each other, Palutena and the Mii Fighters aren't any different. Each of their custom moves have different animations and have noticeably different functions. Also, I've already stated why their moveset should be restricted in tournaments that prohibit custom moves. They're clearly being given an advantage and it is special treatment if they're allowed to use their custom moves in those tournaments. I'm sure that other characters would like to use their custom moves, but they can't because those tournaments prohibit those. Therefore, why should the Mii Fighters be able to do so?

 

[Doruge]

I said that from a gameplay standpoint and how their custom special moves are in relation to each other, Palutena and the Mii Fighters aren't any different. Each of their custom moves have different animations and have noticeably different functions. Also, I've already stated why their moveset should be restricted in tournaments that prohibit custom moves. They're clearly being given an advantage and it is special treatment if they're allowed to use their custom moves in those tournaments. I'm sure that other characters would like to use their custom moves, but they can't because those tournaments prohibit those. Therefore, why should the Mii Fighters be able to do so?

They should be able to do so because the game allows them to. Yes, it's an advantage, but it's an advantage given to them by the game and we can't remove it just because it's more "fair" that way. The only reason to remove that advantage would be if it poses a balance concern, which it does not.

 

[Jigglymaster]

People complain about Mii Brawler even with customs ON, what @DunnoBro said earlier is true. Nobody actually cares about the semantics of it all. They just hate Helicopter Kick and Piston Punch, and that's a shame.

You guys keep going back and forth over the same arguments over and over again to only realize that it's easier to make Mii fighters 1111 than any other combination. Pair that with the fact that they're non-viable with 1111 and hardly anyone plays them, it becomes a unanimous decision amongst the higher ups because they just don't want to see the character in their top 8s. Maybe had Brawler's 1111 been his most viable set, it would've been harder to ban him but I'm sure we'd see more people flat out banning the miis entirely in that case.

You guys can sugarcoat it however you want, but the community seems to want to make the character die. That's why I, personally, am most likely retiring after EVO despite whatever placing I get, since Customs being ON was the only thing keeping my character alive, and it seems like people don't even want THAT anymore.

I took this risk from the very beginning, I knew what was at stake for maining this character and being pro-customs. I like coming up with my own metagames, creating characters that I find unique, that is why custom moves and Mii Brawler really stood out to me. However, I knew that at any point in time it could fall and become non-existent, and that very much seems to be the case. At the very least, I'm glad I'm being given the chance to play my main character at ONE major tournament, aka EVO 2015. That's all I've ever personally wanted and I'm thankful for that. So I can't even be mad.

However, I will say I am disappointed in the smash community for their behavior on the matter. It's been a fun 10 years of being a competitive smasher and I plan to make my great finale at the biggest tournament I've ever attended. Going to live the dream while I can.

See you all around~

 

[Mic_128]

What I meant is that Mii moves work differently than the custom moves of every other character, and this is because of the fact that they are still enabled when customs are turned off. Same does not hold true for Palutena.

Because one switch doesn't turn them off because of how custom characters are made, that does not make them "completely different."

 

[Doruge]

Because one switch doesn't turn them off because of how custom characters are made, that does not make them "completely different."

Well we're just arguing semantics at this point, aren't we....

 

[Mic_128]

Well, that'd be you arguing the semantics. They are exactly the same, in that both Mii's and Palutena have custom moves that are very different, unlike all other characters. The only difference is that because custom characters are programmed differently in how they have their custom moves deactivated.

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

The Miis were designed to be customized, so I think we should hold true to that. Palutena too. Why else would they just make it so you don't have to unlock her custom moves? She's like a 4th mii almost now that I think of it.

 

[Teshie U]

Casting aside any philosophical reason for allowing their entire movesets, I think its pretty clear that Palutena and Mii Brawler show alot of the stuff people are starting to hate about custom moves anyway.

 

[Swampertrulz]

I realize you probably know, but for those who do not wish to go through every single post that claims that they voted differently, it is more convenient. I am also doing this for myself personally, so hopefully it isn't too big an issue.

Okay I see.

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

I don't care too much about customs as I don't use them myself, but I feel like since the Miis were designed for it why not. I'm torn about Palutena though so whatever is decided in the end it better be a decent compromise.

 

[Doruge]

Well, that'd be you arguing the semantics. They are exactly the same, in that both Mii's and Palutena have custom moves that are very different, unlike all other characters. The only difference is that because custom characters are programmed differently in how they have their custom moves deactivated.

The difference is that Miis can use their alternate moves with customs turned off, and Palutena cannot. This matters much more than any similarity they share. It doesn't matter how similar they are from a gameplay standpoint, because Palutena's custom moves don't even EXIST in the customs-off meta, and are therefore irrelevant.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

That's why I, personally, am most likely retiring after EVO despite whatever placing I get, since Customs being ON was the only thing keeping my character alive, and it seems like people don't even want THAT anymore.

However, I will say I am disappointed in the smash community for their behavior on the matter.

So am I. Here we have three fun characters (Okay, two fun characters and a third who would be fun if their moves worked properly... I am willing to say Gunner is not quite functional) that are being kept out due to very early stigma against Brawler's early KOs. Nevermind that he has crap for reach. Nevermind that you tried (and partially succeeded) in pushing for a compromise option that makes Brawler more fair.

No, people cried rather than adapting and got three characters effectively dropped from the roster as a result. I am very upset by this, since I really enjoy Swordfighter but can't quite justify playing them on 1111; Stone Scabbard is awful and nobody in their right mind would take it given the option to use either of the other two choices.

Work has been put in to reduce the logistical problems of Miis at tournaments. QR codes, ready made build lists. Dedicated players have shown they can make a legal Mii Fighter very quickly, usually in less time than some of the more egregious 'handwarmer button checks' take where they test out multiple combinations of multiple buttons, dash-dance around, and in a rare few cases even do combo practice before the match. I have trouble believing Miis are truly a drag on the logistical level.

This just leaves competitive considerations, and it seems people who claim to be 'competitive' are instead quite willing to refuse to learn three character match-ups, two of which aren't even that hard to beat.

If we seem hurt and angry over this, it's because we have found characters that make us happy and our peers have said 'Nope, you cannot have that.' For something easily integrated into the game, something easily picked on the select screen. These are Custom Characters By Design and Intent, it's not like we were pushing to be allowed to play as Master Hand or some such nonsense.

I appreciate the work you put in, and wish our peers would let us enjoy our characters of choice; we don't push to take away their character or render them unplayably bad. What is the harm in letting us have our Miis?

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Devil's advocate here: I still haven't decided which is the best either way....

Ryu, though he doesn't have custom moves, has "extra moves" that are accessed through the specific street fighter style inputs. If we're just talking about customs off (which sadly excludes Palutena - I feel like Nintendo's toying with us with her), how are the Miis having access to "extra moves" any different?

 

[Flamecircle]

People complain about Mii Brawler even with customs ON, what @DunnoBro said earlier is true. Nobody actually cares about the semantics of it all. They just hate Helicopter Kick and Piston Punch, and that's a shame.

You guys keep going back and forth over the same arguments over and over again to only realize that it's easier to make Mii fighters 1111 than any other combination. Pair that with the fact that they're non-viable with 1111 and hardly anyone plays them, it becomes a unanimous decision amongst the higher ups because they just don't want to see the character in their top 8s. Maybe had Brawler's 1111 been his most viable set, it would've been harder to ban him but I'm sure we'd see more people flat out banning the miis entirely in that case.

You guys can sugarcoat it however you want, but the community seems to want to make the character die. That's why I, personally, am most likely retiring after EVO despite whatever placing I get, since Customs being ON was the only thing keeping my character alive, and it seems like people don't even want THAT anymore.

I took this risk from the very beginning, I knew what was at stake for maining this character and being pro-customs. I like coming up with my own metagames, creating characters that I find unique, that is why custom moves and Mii Brawler really stood out to me. However, I knew that at any point in time it could fall and become non-existent, and that very much seems to be the case. At the very least, I'm glad I'm being given the chance to play my main character at ONE major tournament, aka EVO 2015. That's all I've ever personally wanted and I'm thankful for that. So I can't even be mad.

However, I will say I am disappointed in the smash community for their behavior on the matter. It's been a fun 10 years of being a competitive smasher and I plan to make my great finale at the biggest tournament I've ever attended. Going to live the dream while I can.

See you all around~

That's a real shame. It's painful how many players and TOs support Customs bans and never even use customs. The fact that they don't lose anything is probably a big part of that, and all the players who enjoy customs at a competitive level are just swept under the rug.

Your play was always fun to watch, and I'll be sad to see the variety in smash 4 take a nosedive. I guess we can only hope the next patch supports customs better, or the next, or the next...

 

[LimitCrown]

Devil's advocate here: I still haven't decided which is the best either way....

Ryu, though he doesn't have custom moves, has "extra moves" that are accessed through the specific street fighter style inputs. If we're just talking about customs off (which sadly excludes Palutena - I feel like Nintendo's toying with us with her), how are the Miis having access to "extra moves" any different?

Some better comparisons would be with certain attacks that have different properties in certain circumstances (Water Shuriken) or with other special moves that can be slightly stronger at the beginning by using smash input (Skull Bash and Green Missile). Inputting the original commands for his special moves mainly increase the amount of damage that can be dealt by them, which is similar to the latter.

 

[⑨ball]

-snip-

I don't really mind any of Brawler's specials, and I'm all for seeing more Gunner as well as playing her myself in certain MUs.

My only issue with custom miis being legal during default tournaments is the preferential treatment that boils down to TO's essentially saying:
"Ok I'll make or allow players to make custom characters for miis and allow them to be played, but not anyone else."

I haven't see any justification for this, and feel that if an effort is to be made toward customs/customization, it should be made towards the cast/the entirety of the meta and not some quest to ensure a few characters get a handicap while everyone else gets shafted.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Some better comparisons would be with certain attacks that have different properties in certain circumstances (Water Shuriken) or with other special moves that can be slightly stronger at the beginning by using smash input (Skull Bash and Green Missile). Inputting the original commands for his special moves mainly increase the amount of damage that can be dealt by them, which is similar to the latter.

That is true - I thought about that some after I posted it. After watching a ryu video though, I realized that I forgot about the button length press for different kinds of punches and kicks. Again, it's not near as big of a difference as shot put and ultimate uppercut but I'm pretty sure the hitboxes are even different.

If I had it my way, customs would be on for all characters, but the truth is that meta game looks to be dying very quickly so we have to play with the orange fiery background instead of the blue one. That miis get more moves to work with seems like a weaker argument when one considers that ryu has all these options, even more than samus with her missiles or marth with his directional dancing, except that none of those characters have to pick from just one option in a menu.

 

[Yikarur]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...haracter-should-be-allowed-custom-off.398225/

I just leave my thread here.

There is really no logical reason to ban or restrict Mii's moves.
Banning any move from a Mii Fighter is the same as banning a character - you ban something, that is not broken, for no reason.

 

[Dagon97]

If it is a non customs tournament, Mii's should be limited to mid weight + mid height, 1111, 2222 and 3333. Same thing for Palutena.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Speaking as someone who plays Ryu and the Miis, Ryu brings a very loose equivalence at best. Ryu's alternate methods of using and doing moves are really closer to things like 'reverse Blazer' from previous games. Still, thank you for bringing up the idea; it was something to consider.

Now, regarding Custom Moves... I actually favor opening them up. Are there a few that are stupid and legitimately hurt play? Yes. I think you can point to a few moves and say "this move easily facilitates Time Out endings to matches, even against good players" and ban it. Those players might complain about losing a move, but frankly it is their own fault for showing that they will abuse things in flagrantly un-fun ways if given the opportunity.

Conversely, many characters gain so much from customs that they are worth having around. Mega Man becomes much better with Danger Wrap, yet doesn't seem to be broken. Ike... well, I suspect he would become legitimately dangerous with customs plus his recent buffs, but it's worth a try. Pac-Man gains access to whole new play styles, and Charizard can make some important tweaks to his loadout on a case by case basis. Wii Fit Trainer likewise gains tons of fun options. I do indeed favor letting all characters have customs, and simply ban the few that have proven to be troublesome. If it sets up a braindead-easy infinite, off it goes. If it facilitates practical stall-play such that Time Outs happen even against smart players, off it goes. Beyond that, I'd let most things rock. It's hard to argue against more characters having more fun toys that cause a greater diversity of roster use, after all.

Edit, responding to Dagon97: Why. You've laid out what you desire, but not why this is proper and right. Can you offer more insight on why this is the correct way to go?

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

If it is a non customs tournament, Mii's should be limited to mid weight + mid height, 1111, 2222 and 3333. Same thing for Palutena.

Well.....its more the matter of people just hating on customs in general. Honestly not that many people use customs anymore so why does it matter if a few people just want to use custom moves with their character? Mii brawler isn't really that bad. That's just what makes him viable. He still isn't that good against every single top character in the game. Your idea seems fair though, I just think that if anything any custom set should just be allowed, but mid weight all the way seems agreeable to me I suppose

 

[Dagon97]

Why. You've laid out what you desire, but not why this is proper and right. Can you offer more insight on why this is the correct way to go?

The poll stated if it was a non-customs tournament and Palutena + Miis are super bad without the help of customs so give them two other sets. On that note, every character should have the option to go 1111, 2222 or 3333. On the weight of the miis, heavy miis are really bad and lightweight miis are stupid, medium miis are still good but not ridiculously which is necessary for the balance of smash 4.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I would have to see how I feel about that. I believe mid-mid Brawler is still viable, but not sure how Swordfighter holds up on such settings. I might play some sets as mid-mid size Swordfighter sometime, but with custom moves. If I find it acceptable, I would be willing to live with that as a compromise solution.

A compromise I find very unnecessary since JohnNumbers went to the trouble of providing QR codes to facilitate making Mii Fighters at tournaments, but at this point I am frustrated enough with the community that I would go for that if it would get them to go along. Not sure how I feel about 2222/3333 though, this again brings nonsensical lack of synergy in movelists for most of the Miis.

 

[san.]

Bottom right corner for what devs thought of Mii specials:

"Freely customize your Miis' colors and specials."

I suppose it seemed like other character's specials were going to be freely customizable, too, but I guess they decided to split them into custom fighters specifically.

 

[LimitCrown]

The 1111/2222/3333 moveset idea is derived from the way that Smash Tour and Event Mode handle custom moves in the event that all of them for a character are being used. Events like "When Lightning Strikes", "Jackpot Opportunity", and "Four Swords Adventures" have the first opponent use the default moveset, the second opponent use the 2222 moveset, and the third opponent use the 3333 moveset. In any case, it would still give Palutena and the Mii Fighters the advantage of accessing all of their custom moves in tournaments that are supposed to prohibit custom moves, so I disagree with that.

 

[TheBlueSpirit]

I would have to see how I feel about that. I believe mid-mid Brawler is still viable, but not sure how Swordfighter holds up on such settings. I might play some sets as mid-mid size Swordfighter sometime, but with custom moves. If I find it acceptable, I would be willing to live with that as a compromise solution.

A compromise I find very unnecessary since JohnNumbers went to the trouble of providing QR codes to facilitate making Mii Fighters at tournaments, but at this point I am frustrated enough with the community that I would go for that if it would get them to go along. Not sure how I feel about 2222/3333 though, this again brings nonsensical lack of synergy in movelists for most of the Miis.

Man my swordfighteris still decent at mid weight when I've played so I can confirm that he's fine (I don't main him but still)

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I'm a swordfighter main and I can say mid height mid weight is an ok compromise if you practice with it first. Also 2222 and 3333 are in my opinion both superior to 1111. 2222 has better horizontal recovery (can't overshoot and fall off the edge), 3333 has the awesome chakram and both up-bs are infinitely better.

Edit:
I think I should just give my closing argument and be done with it. I'm not as affected by this as puffster and others because my real main is dark pit but I feel that this statement has validity.

Smash bros. is in a way very similar to blazblue, where there are a lot of characters that have different gimmicks. We've got peach's ability to float, ice climbers and rosaluma saying "let's go just one on two" (kudos if you get the reference), ryu's fgc shoutout moves, and even the sword characters having an advantage with sometimes disjointed hitboxes. Especially in a customs off meta (and I have to be honest with myself that as much as I don't like it, that's probably where this is going), this form of originality is the mii characters' gimmick. To simply say it's unfair because the others don't have access to it is like saying rosalina's unfair because of luma. We really need to look at it from a perspective of, "is the gimmick game breaking?", and since the fix of one inch punch, I think the create-a-characters are worth experimenting with. Yes the miis have 12 special moves instead of four, but ryu has 2-3 different types of jabs, and marth has 12 different trajectory patterns to take his sword dance, and rosalina has superior spacing options.

Again, I don't have as much of a say as some, but it doesn't make sense to take away 3 unique characters in a game that's chock full of them already.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I don't really mind any of Brawler's specials, and I'm all for seeing more Gunner as well as playing her myself in certain MUs.

My only issue with custom miis being legal during default tournaments is the preferential treatment that boils down to TO's essentially saying:
"Ok I'll make or allow players to make custom characters for miis and allow them to be played, but not anyone else."

I haven't see any justification for this, and feel that if an effort is to be made toward customs/customization, it should be made towards the cast/the entirety of the meta and not some quest to ensure a few characters get a handicap while everyone else gets shafted.

Yeah I understand that. The only counter I'd say to that is that Customs OFF still lets you choose the specials you want for the mii fighters. But, I gave up on that argument a long time ago. If Mii Brawler didn't exist and it was only swordfighter and gunner, they wouldn't mind letting them have their alt specials. Thats mainly what it boils down to. So I kind of already figured that Mii Fighters would only exist in a customs ON environment.

So when you look at it this way, how am I supposed to play my main character if customs are OFF and they want nobody to have their specials? Theres nothing, thats just it. It is what it is. 1111 Brawler is not the same as 2122, 1122, 1132, any of those. I've already said that I've accepted that this is what the community as decided, and my reaction to it is to retire from Smash. I never had any interest in picking up any other character in the game, none of them appeal to me. So Im just gonna quit lol. If people don't want me to quit, they have to let me play who I want. Simple as that.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

So, wait. Sakurai thought this out and at one point considered locking down Mii Specials as a 'reward' to obtain? Clearly, looking at the game we have now he changed his mind. This should lay to rest any further nonsense regarding that ridiculous Event Mode, and if any more single-player comparisons are made I'm going to demand to be allowed to play as Master Hand and/or Crazy Hand in tournaments. Don't bother me with facts like "you would have to use some kind of hacking/cheat-code method to enable them"; at this point we're already on a magical journey where things like 'logic' have long since been flung out the window while we're doing 80 MPH on the interstate to see if we can successfully hit road signs with it.

Nobody seriously has a problem with open-custom Swordfighter. It's not like giving him Link's Up-B suddenly has him wrecking fools at 20%., sourspotted. Gunner struggles to even be a threat even in fully optimized forms. Annoying as hell, yes. A threat, not so much.

That just leaves Brawler. I'm going to call people out on this one.

Don't like being KOed by Helicopter Kick? There are plenty of things you can do about it.

You could stop going to Smashville every single freaking round you play of every single match.

You could learn to space Brawler out. Easier said than done, but hardly impossible.

You could take Dapuffster up on his offer to voluntarily nerf Brawler by moving to 50-50 size. That's right; Mr. Brawler himself, one of the most prominent players of the character, convinced the Custom Moves Project to add a nerfed Brawler for him to use because he felt Tiny-Brawler is unfair. 50-50 Brawler is still a good character, but what used to be guaranteed kill combos are now more like mixups where there are ways to escape if you pay attention.

It doesn't get more good faith than that. When someone loves their character so much, they willfully make them weaker just to ensure the other player has more fun while still being allowed to play Brawler... that should be the end of the matter. That should get 50-50 size Brawler in to tournaments with free customization. That's on top of us now having clear developer statement of intent that Miis are meant to be custom characters.

Those of us who seriously try to play Miis on a competitive level have bent over backwards to help everyone. We've compiled information, prepared QR codes, offered compromises and voluntary nerfs on Brawler... but at some point the very purpose of the character does need to shine through and we need the proper, real form of our characters. We're trying to work with TOs and players to ensure we can have fun without hurting others; please work with us in return. We're not the enemy, we're not the scourge of Smash 4 that will ruin the game. We just want our characters of choice, in their proper form.

 

[Coffee™]

This just seems like another thread to complain about "limiting" Mii characters when they "shouldn't".

Would you allow custom Mii's in a non-custom tournament?
Objectively, why would anyone ever say yes?

Anyone arguing for custom Mii's to be used in non-custom tournaments is simply playing to their own wants and ignoring the incomparable advantage that gives those characters in that gameplay mode.

 

[Illuminose]

Whether it 'eliminates the character competitively' doesn't matter. Whether the moves are worse competitively doesn't matter. You could make the same argument for allowing customs Palutena with customs off, but that makes no sense. Design intentions don't matter (hint hint, we don't play this game as it is designed). The issue is that Miis do not deserve extra options, regardless of their design intentions. This is exacerbated by the fact that Hurricane Kick is a ridiculous move, but that's really not the entire point. Every character has one option for each special, whether there are better or worse options (with customs off). Giving Miis access to extra options or giving them an optimized set is giving preferential treatment.

 

[T4ylor]

@Coffee
Haha, what incomparable advantages? None of the Mii Fighters are even top tier, Brawler included. If you want to talk about advantages then bring up Sheik or Rosalina.

And you say the people that want to allow the 'custom' Miis are just trying to push their own agenda.. lol. I've never even used them but want to allow them because it isn't right to nerf/ban characters without good reason.

The only issue I see is with them is someone making a new Mii every match or making a bunch all at once, but this can be handled with a simple rule that says they can only use one Mii a set - plus they won't be getting that customs advantage.

 

[Coffee™]

@Coffee
Haha, what incomparable advantages? None of the Mii Fighters are even top tier, Brawler included. If you want to talk about advantages then bring up Sheik or Rosalina.

And you say the people that want to allow the 'custom' Miis are just trying to push their own agenda.. lol. I've never even used them but want to allow them because it isn't right to nerf/ban characters without good reason.

The only issue I see is with them is someone making a new Mii every match or making a bunch all at once, but this can be handled with a simple rule that says they can only use one Mii a set - plus they won't be getting that customs advantage.

Pretty much what the guy above you said.

Them being top or bottom tier is irrelevant. At the end of the day they don't deserve special treatment for them having additional options (incomparable advantages) in a gameplay mode where no other character does.

If they are to be used in a default ruleset, they should play with default rules.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Except that's their entire point. Someone mentioned this above, but perhaps it bears repeating and rephrasing: The very point of a Mii is they have a custom move list, much like the very point of Rosalina is she gets a respawnable puppet and Little Mac gets armored Smashes. That is inherently 'their thing.' A Mii's player gets to pick their moves.

Miis are Special Characters. They are wholly unlike anything else on the roster, designed around different expectations and ideas. Do I think Special Characters deserve special treatment, when said treatment does not harm the game? Yes, absolutely. Nobody else in the game gets a Puppet like Rosalina. Nobody else gets consistent Ganoncide Victory behavior. Shulk is the only one who gets Monado Arts.

That you have to go through a menu to set up Miis is of no great consequence. Sakurai could have instead made you pick each Special at the start of the match, a little 10 second window during the intro pose phase for the fighters. It would have ended this debate right here and your argument would have no leg to stand on at that point, but it also would have been incredibly inconvenient for most players who would just ask "Can't I just save a consistent set I want to use?" And so we go through a menu instead.

There is no harm in allowing the Miis, and your appeal to some sort of 'purity of advantages' is misplaced. If you wish to go down that road, then let us start striking other characters from the roster too. Rosalina must go. Mega Man must be banned because his f-tilt/n-air/jab behavior is 'incomparable' to the rest of the roster. Sheik must be banned because needles offer her an 'incomparable advantage' in ease of out-shooting other projectile characters. Mewtwo must be banned because he has a reflector that is also a grab.

Obviously the above is absurd and I am not seriously advocating it, but this is in effect what those opposing Miis are doing. They're saying "Let's have Miis without open design" when that is their very purpose, point, and appeal. You get to design a tweaked move list that fits your purposes and tastes; you just swap out a few parts prior to the match and are good to go, much like a modular race car or target-competition firearm.

Stop trying to take away fun from others in the name of 'purity of advantage.' Open design Miis are not harmful to play. They simply bring an unusual gimmick to the table of being able to be fine-tuned to the user's preference. That's their entire purpose, and it is a valid one in a game populated by several other far-out gimmicks.

 

[deepseadiva]

This thread is the Smash community battling its own nonsense reasoning on why customs characters are banned in the first place.

I'm glad people are arriving at these basic questions. However... slowly.................

 

[LimitCrown]

Custom moves in general are a fairly controversial subject to begin with. There are a few custom moves that people hate. Heavy Skull Bash, Kong Cyclone, and Timber Counter are examples of these custom moves. Also, people would prefer to ban all of the custom moves than to ban only a few of them.

 

[⑨ball]

This thread is the Smash community battling its own nonsense reasoning on why customs characters are banned in the first place.

I'm glad people are arriving at these basic questions. However... slowly.................

The sheer amount of fallacies being used in this thread is honestly baffling. I'm hoping players like ESAM and DKWill show off at EVO so that more consideration into customs balancing can be taken and we can end these "debates" once and for all.

 

[LimitCrown]

An argument used in favor of the Mii Fighters being able to use their custom moves in tournaments that prohibit custom moves is that it would be unfair if they weren't able to use them, which is an ironic statement. It comes across as very selfish. As other people and I have said before, whether the characters' default special moves are bad doesn't matter. There isn't any reason to make the three characters the exception to the rule.