Shield Pressure Research Project (updated 8/13/07) - Now With Color!

[Brookman]

Well, I wouldn't say NEVER, and "pillaring" with fox doesn't automatically equate to a grab unless you just miss an l cancel. It's just not something you should be eager about doing.

 

[Winged Messiah]

Hmm, I almost never Pillar. It seems so much more effective to Drill -> Shine -> Wavedash behind them and Bair or grab =/. And a hell of a lot more effective to.

 

[Brookman]

Yea, grabbing shields is good, I don't think anyone is saying it isn't, but for the sake of mixing things up and being less predictable you should just run around grabbing. Also, wavedashing behind people can be pretty dangerous, as they can jump out of their shield and hit you during the wavedash.

 

[knightpraetor]

question, can falcon run away after a shffled knee on a shield or will he get grabbed? i know he has time to roll away..i just don't know how long it takes him to get out of the way by running..he's fast so i would think he could escape...but maybe marth could catch him?

 

[Emblem Lord]

CF has the longest opening dash animation.

Yes, he can dash away,but only if the Knee is sweet spotted. He needs the shieldstun on that to have ebnough time to get away.

It's better to just shuffle a Nair if you want to cross-up or dash away.

 

[knightpraetor]

oh so in other words i was wrong about it being easier for falcon...and ya, i mess up the dash away sometimes after a knee..probably missing the sweetspot

 

[Emblem Lord]

Uhhh, it's actually alot easier for Falcon IMO.

Just use his nair for it.

 

[knightpraetor]

oh i thought you meant by longest that he had the longest start up time on his dash..but you just meant longer length, so it is easier..ok

 

[SCOTU]

the knee also has to be pretty late in the shffl to be perfect though.

 

[Sliraobe God]

Hey scotu, great thread
I have a quick question about different forms of pillaring, and I was curious specifically for the Fair with falco.

I presume an ideal Fair would not have much of a fastfall or early/late startup, since a shffled fair has maximum 2 hitboxes. Also, both hitboxes have little shieldstun yet (I think) have little hitlag in between.
Would it be possible for an opponent to shieldgrab an ideal pillar from shine->Fair with 2 hitboxes->repeat?

And, even if this isn't a good form of pillaring, I was still wondering how long the window is for the opponent to shieldgrab. So, if you aren't busy, it would be cool to have frame data with this

Thank you!

 

[Silhouette]

yeah great info scotu,
but what about any lcanceled ariel>multishine on the ground, i use this alot and i can usually get 10-15 shines out before they get pushed too far away for the shine to reach with barely no shield left.

 

[SCOTU]

about fair pillar w/ 2 hits:
if you fair the frame you leave the ground, you can FF asap, and hit w/ the second hit the frame before you land. This yields a 6 frame disadvantage, allowing exactly enough time to shield grab between fair and shine.
once you shine, however, there's a 7 frame window before a fair can come out again, allowing a 2 frame window to shield grab, and even allowing some usamshes to hit. Between hits of the fair, there's only 2 frames of opening, so nothing but a spot dodge could be used. While this technique is overall safer than a normal pillar, it still has the same weakness: it can be rolled out of.

@Silhouette: what about it?

 

[Animal control]

pretty nice man

 

[Mosarani]

It's a good read, but it seems to me that shield tripping is prevalent enough that you can hardly extract pure judgments on the best shield pressuring technique for a given situation. For the most part, if you can get just behind your opponent, you avoid being shield grabbed and can count on either a shield trip or a roll, leaving you an opponent with a tiny shield and compromised defense, using a lot of different techniques in a less than robot-perfect way.

 

[SCOTU]

That is a very good point, you typically don't want to be humping their shield. I'm not endorsing the use of many of these methods, i'm just posting info on them (many of them show why they're bad techniques).

 

[Brookman]

Things change and now I support using this technique against people who wait for you to shine to shield grab, and just as a mix up. Pressure is good.

 

[dashdancedan]

Hey can you do some research on fox and falco's shield pressures on bowser's upB out of shield? (early aerial, delayed aerial, the works) That would be great!

 

[SCOTU]

actually, i can no longer do research on it, as my gc is broke and AR doesn't work with a wii. However, any time there is even a single frame of openness in the blockstring, bowser can do an up-b. If a shine and a fortress hit at the same time, the shine wins, though.

 

[`DNS`]

Good job @ bumping a 2year old thread bro

 

[dashdancedan]

Well, this is a pretty cool thread BRO. And thanks for the response, SCOTU

 

[KAOSTAR]

fail

*bookmarked*

 

[0megaZer0]

Wow, when looking at this....it's amazing....but in high intensity matches this is kinda hard to keep in mind

~Also to know the frames mid-battle sounds very difficult.... especially being that these frames go by really fast

 

[SCOTU]

The biggest idea here isn't to "keep track of the frames mid battle" it's more to figure out what works, what's likely to work, what are good/bad options, what you can punish, etc... ahead of time, and just remember those things, so you can take advantage of them in game.