Shield Pressure Research Project (updated 8/13/07) - Now With Color!

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
#1
This is a personal project of mine exploring shields and shield pressure as it relates to smash theory, meta game, and frame data.

Unless otherwise specified, all maneuvers' frame data is regarded as if it were executed perfectly.
If anyone else has any topical information that I overlooked, please let me know, and I will investigate/ add it to this project.


General Information:

The shield (not light shield) Stays up for exactly 215 frames (yoshi's is 1 more). When an attack hits it, it weakens the shield.
This amount of damage can be measured by counting the number of frames subtracted from the shields total lifespan.
Therefore, the amount of damage a move inflicts on a shield can be quantified by the frames in duration it removes from the shields lifespan.
Note that there is a rough correlation between the % that a move would normally deal to the % of total shield lifespan it removes.
So, essentially, a shield has 215 HP, and you moves that hit it deal a set # of damage compared against those HP.
Also, a shield will take 1 damage every frame it's out (not in hit stun) by definition (shield decay).
Light Shields will have the same amount of HP, they just have much less shield Decay (~.118 the shield decay of the heavy shield)
So, when "shield damage" is referenced here, it is measured in # frames that the shield loses from it's lifespan.
Note that a shield takes its damage from an attack on the first frame of shield stun, and takes no damage (not even shield decay) during hit stun.
Shield Recharge Rate: For every 4 frames the shield is inactive, 1 HP of the shield is restored (rounded up)


Attacks:

Nair:
Comes out: frame 4
fastest out of shield: frame 8
Shield damage: 26
Shield stun: 14 frames
L-canceled Lag: 7 Frames

Dair (6 hits):
Comes out: frame 5
Fastest out of shield: frame 9
Shield Damage: 22
Shield Stun: ~37 frames (~6/7 frames/ hit) has a -5 frame disadvantage after l-cancelling.
L-canceled Lag: 9 frames

Bair:
Comes out: frame 4
Fastest out of shield: frame 8
Shield Damage: 42
Shield Stun: 16 frames
L-canceled Lag: 10 frames

Uair:
Comes out: frame 8
Fastest out of shield: frame 12
Shield Damage: 42
Shield Stun: 15 frames (after 2nd hit)
L-canceled Lag: 9 frames

Fair:
Don't shffl fairs into shields.
L-canceled Lag: 9 frames

Shine:
Comes out: frame 1
Fastest out of shield: frame 5
Shield Damage: 5
Shield Stun: 8 frames

USmash
Comes out: frame 7
Fastest of of shield (or shine): frame 8
Shield Damage: 36
Shield Stun: 19 frames (15 frame disadvantage)

Full Moveset:

Listed: Hitlag ShieldStun Attack

  • Jabs
    • 04 07 Jab 1
    • 04 07 Jab 2
    • 03 05 Rapid Jab 1
    • 03 05 Rapid Jab 2
    • 03 05 Rapid Jab 3
    • 03 05 Rapid Jab 4
    • 03 05 Rapid Jab 5

  • Tilts
    • 06 12 Down Tilt
    • 06 12 Forward Tilt (high)
    • 06 12 Forward Tilt (low)
    • 06 12 Forward Tilt (middle)
    • 07 14 Up Tilt

  • Dash Attack
    • 05 10 Dash Attack

  • Smashes
    • 09 19 Down Smash (charged)
    • 08 16 Down Smash (uncharged)
    • 09 19 Forward Smash (charged)
    • 08 16 Forward Smash (uncharged)
    • 11 23 Up Smash (charged)
    • 09 19 Up Smash (uncharged)

  • Aerials
    • 08 16 Back Air
    • 06 12 Back Air (weak)
    • 04 07 Down Air (each hit)
    • 05 10 Forward Air (1st hit)
    • 05 09 Forward Air (other hits)
    • 07 14 Neutral Air
    • 06 12 Neutral Air (weak)
    • 04 08 Up Air (1st hit)
    • 08 15 Up Air (2nd hit)

  • Specials
    • 04 08 Down-B
    • 00 na Neutral-B (not shielded)
    • 04 07 Neutral-B (shielded)
    • 05 10 Side-B
    • 03 05 Up-B (charging flames)
    • 07 15 Up-B (firefox)

  • Getups
    • 05 10 Edge Attack-up (fast)
    • 05 10 Edge Attack-up (slow)
    • 05 09 Faceplant Attack-up (1st hit)
    • 05 09 Faceplant Attack-up (2nd hit)
    • 05 09 Pratfall Attack-up (1st hit)
    • 05 09 Pratfall Attack-up (2nd hit)

  • Grabs
    • 04 07 Attack (while holding)
    • 00 na Back Throw
    • 00 na Down Throw
    • 00 na Forward Throw
    • 00 na Up Throw




Shield Pressuring Techniques:

Green = Shield in Stun
Red = Shield not in Stun

Waveshining:

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8

9
10 Airborne, Air Dodge
11 Waveland Lag
12 Waveland Lag
13 Waveland Lag
14 Waveland Lag
15 Waveland Lag
16 Waveland Lag
17 Waveland Lag
18 Waveland Lag
19 Waveland Lag
20 Waveland Lag

21 Shine Again

Shield Damage: 5/ shine, shield decay 12. total 17/ iteration.
Notes: Used to position oneself better against the shield (behind them usually).

Multishining:

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8

9
10 Airborne, Shine, Hitlag
11 Hitlag
12 Hitlag
13 Hitlag
14
15
16 Land, Start Jump
17

18
19 Airborne, Shine

Shield Damage: 5/ shine, 1 frame shield decay. Total 6/ iteration.

Pillaring (w/ dair):
Shine puts +2 advantage after jump, drill comes out on frame 5, and has a 3 frame disadvantage.
Drill lands w/ 4 frames of shield lag (past the hitstun on the drill), so after l-canceling (9 frames) you have a 5 frame disadvantage.
Escape methods: spot dodge (after shine), spot dodge/ roll/ any one frame attack jc'ed by a 4 frame jumper (after drill)
Shield Damage: 22/ Drill, 5/ shine, 8 for shield decay. 35/ iteration.
Notes: you should position your dair so that it's inside of them (to follow their shield DI/SDI, and to make sure you don't shield poke).

Pillaring (w/ bair):

Fastest Bair

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8

9
10 Airborne, Start Bair
11
12

13 Bair Hits, Hitlag
14 Hitlag
15 Hitlag
16 Hitlag
17 Hitlag
18 Hitlag
19 Hitlag
20 Hitlag
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 Fast Fall

29
30
31
32 Land, LC lag
33 LC lag
34 LC lag
35 LC lag
36 LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag

42 Shine Again

Later Bair

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8

9
10 Airborne
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

21 Bair Hits, Hitlag, Fast Fall
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24 Hitlag
25 Hitlag
26 Hitlag
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29
30
31
32 Land, LC lag
33 LC lag
34 LC lag
35 LC lag
36 LC lag

37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag

42 Shine Again

Shield Damage: 42/ bair + 5/ shine. Total of 47/ itteration.
Notes: This is used for a shield finisher, since it can be escaped easily after the bair, and hits easily after a shine, and does massive shield damage.

ShineGrabbing:
(shine>jc grab)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8 Start JC Grab

9
10
11
12
13
14 Grab "hits"


Shield Damage: 5/ shine + 6 Shield Decay, 11 total (irrelevant)
Notes: Used to end shield pressure into a grab

ShineSmashing
(Shine>jc usmash)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8 Start JC usmash

9
10
11
12
13
14 Usmash Hits

Shield Damage: 41 + 6 frames decay. Total = 47
Notes: Use only when the usmash will break the shield, as this will make them either get smashed or have thier shield broken.
Since any buffered dodge/ roll has more than 1 frame before they become invincible, this is an effective way to punish buffering.
The Strategy here: When there shield is low enough, and you expect them to escape via a buffered roll/ spot dodge, you can shinesmash. If they buffered some form of escape, the usmash will connect. If they didn't buffer a method of escape, their shield will be broken. This is a win-win situation if their shield is low enough on HP.


Breaking Pressure, The Options:

Buffering:

Buffering is using the c-stick to execute an option automatically when it opens.

While in a shield, holding the C-stick left/right will buffer a roll. Fox's roll becomes invincible on frame 4,
so any type of pressure w/ a disadvantage of 4 frames or greater can be rolled out of.

While in a shield, holding the C-stick down will buffer a spot dodge. Fox's Spot dodge becomes invincible on frame 2,
so any type of pressure w/ a disadvantage of 2 frames or greater can be spot dodge out of (well, you can spot dodge anyway, it might not get you out of it)

While in a shield, holding the C-stick up will buffer a jump. Fox's jump takes 4 frames to leave the ground.

ShieldGrabbing:
takes 7 frames, so any pressure w/ a disadvantage of 8 frames or greater can be shield grabbed

Aerials out of shield:
Fox's Nair and Bair are fox's fastest aerials out of a shield at 8 frames a piece,
so any pressure w/ a disadvantage of 8 frames can be counter attacked.
Notes: Can be combined w/ a buffered jump

ShieldShining:
(jc'ing a shine out of a shield)
Comes out on frame 5, and is invincible on frame 5,
so any pressure w/ a 5 frame or more disadvantage can be escaped (guaranteed) by a shieldshine.
Notes: Can be combined w/ a buffered jump, but would be ridiculously difficult to do (and still be on the ground)
Can be used to start shine combos (be prepared to Thunders against space animals)

ShieldSmashing
(jc'ing a usmash out of a shield)
Comes out on frame 8
so any pressure w/ a 8 frame or more disadvantage can be escaped by a sheildsmash.
Notes: Can be combined w/ a buffered jump, but would be ridiculously difficult to do
Can be used to start shine combos (be prepared to uair, or to grab/ usmash again against space animals)

Shield Release Lag: 15 frames
This means you can attack after 15 frames of releasing your shield,
so any form of pressure w/ a 16 frame disadvantage can be punished by releasing your shield, then attacking.

Shield Toggling
Since you can switch your "shield density" (how light vs heavy it is), you can let up a bit on R/L during shield pressure, so that the pressure will push you away (since the light shield has less traction).



Powershield:

Your shield will still have all hitstun from an attack, but the advantage is that it's optional to remain in your shield after powershielding. If it's a projectile, it will reflect it.

Note: if you release R/L immediately, the normal shield will not come out, so you don't have to deal w/ hit stun nor release lag. Powershield>shine is the fastest shield counterstrike there is (more powerful moves will usually work too, depending on how much time is left in the moves animation).

How to Powershield: Press R/L/Z somewhere between (inclusive) 4 & 0 frames before the attack would hit.



Lightshield:

The lightshield has significantly less traction than the "heavy" shield, this makes for an easier escape of shield pressure, while simultaneously making
it harder to counter attack a shield pressurer.

Note: Shield density cannot be changed while in shield hit lag, but can be instantaneously any other time.


Advanced Buffers:

A highly theoretical concept, buffering a jump out of a shield and JCing that into something to guarantee you're not being cheated on frames.
Hold Up on the C-stick in shield stun. From the frame the shield drops you have 1 frame to input your JC (frame 1: shield drops, frame 2: input JC, frame 3: JC, frame 4: airborne if missed window).

Buffering shield smashers:

tilt the control stick up, hold up-c (with thumb over A) when shield drops, press A (release R/L).
Takes 9 Frames to come out.

Buffering Shield Shines:
tilt the control stick down, hold up-c (with thumb over B) when shield drops, press B.
Note that since this isn't a true JC, you're actually Shining on the first frame airborne.
Takes 4 Frames to come out.


Buffering Shield Grabs:
Hold up-c (with thumb over A) when shield drops, press A (don't release R/L).
Takes 9 Frames to come out.


Specific Types of Pressure Broken Down
(all data found in SCOTU's Frame Data Q&A + Request Thread
Falco's Pillar Data:
Early Pillar (dair asap out of shine):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10

11
12
13 Airborne (start Dair)
14
15
16

17 Dair Hits, Hitlag
18 Hitlag
19 Hitlag
20 Hitlag
21 Hitlag
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24
25
26
27
28
29
30

31
32 Fast Fall
33
34
35
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag

45 Shine again

Ideal Pillar (Typical Pillar):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10

11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 Start Dair
22
23
24
25

26 Dair Hits, HitLag, Fast Fall
27 Hitlag
28 Hitlag
29 Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33
34
35
36 Land- LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag

40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag

45 Shine again

Late Dair (Dair hits right before landing)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10

11
12
13 Airborne
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Start Dair
26 Fast Fall
27
28

29 Dair Hits, Hitlag
30 Hitlag
31 Hitlag
32 Hitlag
33 Hitlag
34 Hitlag
35 Hitlag
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag

43 LC lag
44 LC lag

45 Shine Again
Falco's Multishine Data:

Multishining


1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10

11
12

13 Airborne, shine, Hitlag
14 Hitlag
15 Hitlag
16 Hitlag
17 Hitlag
18
19
20 Land, Start Jump for repeat
21
22

23
24

25 Airborne, Shine, Hitlag
Falco's Jab Cancel Data
Single Jab Cancels:

1 Jab starts
2 Jab Hits, Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8

9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19 IASA w/ crouch
20 Start Next Jab

21 Next Jab Hits, Hitlag

Two Jab Cancel:

1 Start Jab

2 Jab hits, Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8

9 Second punch starts
10

11 Second Punch hits, Hitlag
12 Hitlag
13 Hitlag
14 Hitlag
15
16
17

18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30 IASA w/ crouch
31 Start next series

32 Next jab hits, Hitlag
Peach's "Pillar"
Nair>Slap

1 Start Nair
2 Fast Fall

3 Nair Hits, Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6 Hitlag
7 Hitlag
8 Hitlag
9 Land, Landing Lag
10 Landing Lag
11 Landing Lag
12 Landing Lag
13 Start Slap
14 Slap Hits, Hitlag
15 Hitlag
16 Hitlag
17
18
19

20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30 IASA w/ Jump
31
32
33
34
35 Airborne
36 Float
37 Start Nair (repeat from beginning)


Nair>Nair


1 Start Nair
2 Fast Fall

3 Nair Hits, Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6 Hitlag
7 Hitlag
8 Hitlag
9 Land, Landing Lag
10 Landing Lag
11 Landing Lag
12 Landing Lag
13 Start Jump
14
15
16

17
18 Airborne
19 Float
20 Start Nair (repeat from beginning)
Marth Dtilts
Marth's Dtilt Shield Pressure

1 start Dtilt
2
3
4
5
6

7 Dtilt Hits, Hitlag
8 Hitlag
9 Hitlag
10 Hitlag
11Hitlag
12Hitlag
13
14
15
16
17
18

19
20
21
22
23
24
25 IASA w/ another Dtilt (repeat from beginning)



Notice:

I am in fact human, and therefore prone to error, if you notice something that is incorrect or incomplete, please kindly let me know (either w/ a PM, or post).
Thank you.


Credits:
Information used from SuperDoodleMan and Mew2King's work.
Thanks to Phanna for providing some of the hitlag/ shield stun data.
Additional information collected by me using Action Replay.

Comming Soon:
Suggestions on what to add?

Current as of: August 13, 2007
July 18th, expanded info on lightshields and powershields
July 19th, corrected ShineGrabbing, added ShineSmashing, ShieldSmashing, Comming Soon section
July 27th, added L-Cancel Info, added Adv. Buffers
August 6th, added full moveset, updated Usmash data, corrected some original data
August 10th, redoing shield pressure sections with frame breakdowns on how to do each maneuver, and where it's strength's & weaknesses lie.
August 13th, added section on specific types of pressure (falco's pillar, multishine, jab cancels, Peach Pillar, Marth's Dtilt), Recharge Rate, Completed section on powershielding
 

Tundravalco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
399
Location
New Jersey
#2
this was actually a really interesting read. ill try to remember some of this when i fox ditto like when to match up a certain way out of the sheild when they are doing a certain attack. ty for this scotu you basically molded my fox into what it is today with your infinite wisdom in every thread that i ever posted in the fox forum.

edit for spelling >.> im dumb.
 

j00t

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
2,193
Location
North AL
#4
I never have tried to bother with frame data, but after I read this, I realized that it is pretty important stuff. I need to read up more on this stuff. Good post, scotu.
 

kenny10

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
490
Location
now in South Korea
#5
Nice work but I have a question, when do you have to press the R or L button down to powershield before an attack hits you? I've always wondered about this because some people say on the exact frame while others say a little before it.
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
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Location
Northville, MI
#7
While your shield is not up what are the recover attributes of said shield? Meaning while it's out it loses 1hp for each frame is it the same in recovery?
I haven't yet tested it, i will look into it probably tomorrow.

Nice work but I have a question, when do you have to press the R or L button down to powershield before an attack hits you? I've always wondered about this because some people say on the exact frame while others say a little before it.
I know you have to press shield a bit before hand, i originally had a how to do it section in there w/ ???s for exactly how to do it, but FC came and i didn't really test it before then, and i figured i'd release it and figure it out later (probably tomorrow as well).
 

Oskurito

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
1,948
Location
Hell
#9
Very interesting but nothing I didn't know. Uh.. maybe you want to add traction references for each character so people could know what characters go very far when hitted by an attack (specially if light shielding) and you didn't mention that the dair is able to pillar any shield with any traction, beacause the dair sticks to shields... uh.. and uair eats them...

AH I almost forgot, Upsmash out of the shine(Jump canceled) is a great thing to use because it completely rapes the shield you should do it and see it by yourself
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
#15
"Falco's shffld dair will take 26 frames from jump (off ground)>shine. hits on frame 5. i'm not sure, but i think it puts 10 frames of shield hit lag on. Than means you'll have from 15-25 to do an attack. A JC usmash (when done perfectly) takes 8 frames to hit. say you want to hit on frame 25 or before, then you have 3 frames to jc usmash."


which comes out i think in the same time as falco's coming out at frame 5 at the earliest (going up) or is this going down.

because if it's going up, then you have frames 15-25 to act..

but in that case the opponent can wait till they hit the peak of their jump..which i guess is around frame 7-8, and then dair, which will give you frames 17-25 to act...so 8 frames on both ends..which is much harder to time..

so anywyas it's very important in knowing roughly what frame corresponds to different positions in falco's jump if you want to know when it might be possible to have a frame advantage for escape.

anyways, this fascinates me because i'm looking for new tech stuff to train..and reacting and punishing small 1-2 frame gaps where i can counter sounds fun
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
6,636
Location
Northville, MI
#16
wow, that last was kind of confusing wording to me. If that's a question, i don't know what you're asking. If that's just a breakdown of what i said, it took me a while to figure out...
 

kerploplesteesh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
333
Location
South Eastern Michigan
#17
this was actually a really interesting read. ill try to remember some of this when i fox ditto like when to match up a certain way out of the sheild when they are doing a certain attack. ty for this scotu you basically molded my fox into what it is today with your infinite wisdom in every thread that i ever posted in the fox forum.

edit for spelling >.> im dumb.
thats cute. seriously. Way to go scotu
 

kerploplesteesh

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
333
Location
South Eastern Michigan
#18
this was actually a really interesting read. ill try to remember some of this when i fox ditto like when to match up a certain way out of the sheild when they are doing a certain attack. ty for this scotu you basically molded my fox into what it is today with your infinite wisdom in every thread that i ever posted in the fox forum.

edit for spelling >.> im dumb.
thats cute. seriously. Way to go scotu

double post, sorry for being gay.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
#19
ok so i'll try to word it simply.

My question is when falco's or fox's (but falco's is probably more important to know) dair hits.

1. How many frames after a shine does dair hit at its earliest?

2. What if the falco does the dair while coming down instead of going up, around what frame will the dair hit then?
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
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Mar 16, 2007
Messages
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Location
Northville, MI
#20
1. Falco's: frame 19. (but you have 9 frames of shield stun) shine 1, 3 frames hit stun, jump out 4 frames later, jump takes 6 frames, dair comes out in 5 frames.
Fox's: frame 17. (but you have 7 frames of shield stun) shine 1, 3 frames of hit stun, jump out 4 frames later, jump takes 4 frames, dair comes out in 5 frames.
2. anywhere from frame 19, and 31.

I think i counted that correctly. Someone catch me if i'm wrong.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
#21
i don't see how that can be true..if that's true why dont opponents just shieldgrab. You're saying they have 10-21 frames to act. Shieldgrabbing only takes 8 frames no? or maybe they aren't at the right range to hit with shieldgrabbing..but still..wouldn't you technically be able to do a whole host of moves against someone pillaring you then? and i don't feel like that's the case during matches
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
#23
awesome, if scotu says it's so, it must be so..so basically my new strategy in matches is to always try to do something in that 10 frame gap...sure for the first year of melee or so i may end up taking more combo damage than actually getting out, but eventually i will get good at it..hopefully good enough to get a 50% escape rate at least...lol, if nothing else it's another tech skill to practice...

this is an unrelated question, but how useful do you think it would be for me to incorporate sh ffwavelands into my game? i mean waveland after aerials with marth and stuff, but i'm not sure if any characters get a major benefit from ff wavelands...it just seems a lot quicker..they think you're just landing fast and all of sudden you're on them..also it's technically faster than ff to dashgrab i would think?
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
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Mar 16, 2007
Messages
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Location
Northville, MI
#24
you're saying like an empty FF'ed circle jump, but waveland towards them? It works esp. well out of a dash and you jump back (so it goes very vertical) FF, waveland towards and whatever. Framewise there are more frames after hitting the ground that you can't grab in w/ the waveland, but if they're relatively far away, the waveland moves you faster, so at range (when the lag is done w/ anyway), it is faster to do this. I like using waveland tricks a lot, and i usually FF them. Works decently a lot, so i would recommend using this. Keep in mind though, that i'm no good at this game though.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
#25
ah cool, ya i waveland a lot but rarely fastfall before the waveland except from full jumps so i figured if i incorporated it i would move faster.

anyways, last set of questions i guess.

based on what you said earlier, if the falco/fox plans to do the dair late, then you should be able to easily grab them after the shine.

Now assuming they do it early, ie at frame 19, then how many frames will you have to act before the next shine? i assume now that pillaring with the aerial going out at the earliest possible moment is most effective.

Since you said you land on frame 31, then there are 12 frames before landing..so 13 frames till the shine i guess? oh but there's L-cancel lag...anyways, i don't know how many frames of shield stun falco causes either..

so anyways, how many frames between the end of shield stun from the dair and the next shine.. is it relatively easy to shieldgrab if they did the aerial early?

ps - have you ever wondered to yourself whether high level tech skill takes away from valuable focus you could be adding to your thoughts and prediction? sometimes i worry that i spend too much thought setting up a pivot or going for that fancy combo that is "guaranteed", but also hard to execute, when i could have just not focused on that and tried to predict the opponents move and punish with a simpler move.

edit: i lied, one more question..why does wiggling the control stick get you out of tumble..i never really thought about it before but it's not popping immediately into my head now
 
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
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#26
just wondering, before i ask more questions about this, have u guys discussed uair>shine shffl's on shields?
i guess u can say its sort of like uair pillaring.
it sounds like a pretty good idea... hmm
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
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#27
Well, the uair puts just as much shield stun/ damage as a bair, but has 1 frame less landing lag. The only real difference here, is that it comes out a few frames slower (leaving you open for counter attack harder), but it has 2 hits, so you're less vulnerable on the way down.
 
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#30
no, you probably won't/can't break their shields with this (unless you're a beast a jc shines). But the data can give you a rough idea of what you can do to poke away at and pressure a shield, and how to safely get enough shield stun for various options. Personally, I just love to abuse the hell out of the the bair shines as fox.
 

SCOTU

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#31
no, you probably won't/can't break their shields with this (unless you're a beast a jc shines). But the data can give you a rough idea of what you can do to poke away at and pressure a shield, and how to safely get enough shield stun for various options. Personally, I just love to abuse the hell out of the the bair shines as fox.
Quoted for truth. This actually shows that you're not likely to break someone's shield, but it does show you how to pressure it to make them do something stupid out of their shield in fear that it'll break.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
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#33
Does shine grabbing beat shield grabbers?

I tested it with a friend and my shine grab beat his shield grab everytime.
 
Joined
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#34
scotu i have a question to, how does sweetspoting attacks play into this?

what i mean is:
if you were to do a bair on a person in front of you depending on when the attack comes out it could do less damage and/or knockback. the same goes for when you bair to early and it hits but does far less damage and knockback.

how does sweatspotting affect the shield?
 

SCOTU

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#35
The sweetspot puts more shield stun on the shield, while simultaneously has more hitlag. I believe the info for sweetspots vs sourspots is listed in the full moveset section. The shield damage listed is for sweetspots only, since that's probably what your going to hit with if you're pressuring.
 

SCOTU

Smash Hero
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#37
Sorry, missed it.

Frame 1: shine hits
Shine takes 4 frames of hit stun, but gives the shield 8 frames of hit lag.
3 frames later, the shine can be jumped out of, leaving it with a 1 frame advantage.
your JC grab takes 8 frames (at fastest) to come out, but you have a 1 frame advantage.
So, technically, they're even. So it comes down to if you're faster at JC grabbing, or if they're faster at shield grabbing asap after shieldstun is gone.
 

Emblem Lord

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#38
So if we grab at the same time we will just be knocked away from each other.

Hmmm, good to know.

Also is Fox able to wavedash away after a shine to avoid being shield grabbed?
 

SCOTU

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#39
Technically, if you grab each other, the person closer to 1st Player will grab the other.
for the 2nd, Only if you can get far enough in 5 frames to be outside of their shield grab range.
 

Oskurito

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#40
So if we grab at the same time we will just be knocked away from each other.

Hmmm, good to know.

Also is Fox able to wavedash away after a shine to avoid being shield grabbed?
If you wavedash backwards then yes, if you wavedash forwards you will probably grabbed depending on your opponent's grab range. Also I think you can buffer the shine with a roll so the other guy(fox) grabs the air.

EDIT: LOL scotu answered at the same time (with a much better answer I guess).
 
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