Sheik, why she will return

[hungrybum]

Oh Sakurai, please make Sheik an Assist Trophy. Zelda's curse from melee has to be vanished!

QFT... for great justice
Sheik must be detroyed!!!

 

[Soluble Toast]

Of course, all that assumes that Sakurai doesn't consider the Brawl Zelda representative of all Zeldas. And what has occured previously with Link's moveset seems to strongly indicated that for such characters, the Brawl incarnation represents the named character in the entire franchise.


If, for the puporses of Brawl they're all one character, then what becomes the point of seperating Zelda and Sheik?

Care to explain why Melee Zelda was completely inspired by OOT Zelda?
Her taunt, moves. costume, voice.
If Melee Zelda was an incarnation of ALL Zelda's surely Sakurai would've included little nods to past Zelda's?
No, he used OOT exclusively.

Brawl Zelda could easily take to TP Zelda more than any others . So far, we know the goddesses spells are present, this could be a reference to ALL Zelda's having a close relationship to the goddesses , but could also be a nod to OOT. Now, to separate Zelda completely from OOT Zelda she could be given a new Down B. Light arrows. light arrows are gradually becoming associated with the character of Zelda. In all of her 3-D appearances she has been known to use, or be associated with light arrows. The arrows are already starting to be associated as Zelda's weapon of choice.
If Sakurai was to really represent ALL Zelda's, wouldn't light arrows be a better representation? rather than a WHOLE OOT inspired move set?

Saying Sheik represents all Zelda's doesn't help the argument, as Sheik represents OOT. How is this representing all Zelda's if her entire move set is inspired by OOT, but the only thing referencing any other game is her appearance?
It just doesn't sound right.

It makes more sense to replace Sheik with light arrows, give her an entrance referencing another Zelda, give her taunts referencing another Zelda, and THEN we have a Zelda that is a fused form of EVERY Zelda.

Link's move set is also completely TP inspired, along with his appearance, but his known taunts are from TP, and OOT, and his entrance is from Zelda 2.

There is a heavy influence of TP here, to relate to his appearance., but he also has little nods to different Link's . I don't see why Zelda can't have a heavy TP influence also.

 

[P.E]

Although Shiek was one of my main characters, I wouldn´t mind if she would be replaced by Sothe from Fire Emblem. Her moveset would fit perfectly for Sothe.

 

[Storm Eagle]

Although Shiek was one of my main characters, I wouldn´t mind if she would be replaced by Sothe from Fire Emblem. Her moveset would fit perfectly for Sothe.

Or Ryu Hayabusa.

 

[Super_Jesus]

Up until now I was sure they weren't reviling Samus's move set because they wanted to hide that you can transform to a new character with v B (Samus changing into Zamus that way too?) and giving away a possibility for Shiek.

But eh, what do I know? =(

 

[shinhed-echi]

Doesn't Mario use the spinning thing from Mario 64... the cape from SMW, and the FLUDD from SMS? That clearly reeks of a Smash-exclusive Mario. Zelda might be a Smash-exclusive Zelda as well.

The difference between Link and Mario is that Link has a LOT of moves to choose from in a single game, while Mario barely has moves to choose from in any of his games... so it's natural Mario would have to get a moveset from combining MANY of his games.

Zelda shares this fate with Mario. She lacks a moveset, therefore they must recycle and reuse what they can to give her a a moveset... Not saying they could easily replace her Down B with anything..
But if they did... why all the secrecy? Why wasn't Zelda on the demo? Maybe they weren't done with the Sheik model by then...

So many possibilities... I wonder if anyone saved Zelda in the SSE shown at the E for All...

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Why can't Sheik be her own character this time? Why does she have to be a form of Zelda?

AGH, Sheik is not a separate character, Sheik IS Zelda. Because of that. Having Sheik as a own character would be having OoT Zelda and TP Zelda on the select screen.

I'd rather have her as a transformation, or gone.

EDIT:

Doesn't Mario use the spinning thing from Mario 64... the cape from SMW, and the FLUDD from SMS? That clearly reeks of a Smash-exclusive Mario. Zelda might be a Smash-exclusive Zelda as well.

Because there is not a Mario 64 Mario, and a SMS Mario... we've always had ONE Mario. We have had several Links and Zelda's throughout Nintendo's eras.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Although Shiek was one of my main characters, I wouldn´t mind if she would be replaced by Sothe from Fire Emblem. Her moveset would fit perfectly for Sothe.

I was thinking of that too. I would loce to se Sothe with Shieks moveset.

 

[Black/Light]

Which would be why Aonuma-san said that the TP artists are submitting a Sheik design for Sakurai to use for Brawl.

He never said that. . . please, stop streading that falseness.

 

[joeysmash]

If shiek returns she wil be a seperate character... or better be at least!

better yet, don't come back at all, we don't really need her anyway.

 

[Sailyfee]

If shiek returns she wil be a seperate character... or better be at least!

better yet, don't come back at all, we don't really need her anyway.

Nah, she's coming back. Well, it's likely anyway. I read that TP artists are currently working on Shiek's and Ganondorfs designs. I wouldn't mind if she came back, just nerfed a bit.

 

[Black/Light]

Nah, she's coming back. Well, it's likely anyway. I read that TP artists are currently working on Shiek's and Ganondorfs designs. I wouldn't mind if she came back, just nerfed a bit.

. . . How many times are people going to twist up that intereview?

 

[Sailyfee]

. . . How many times are people going to twist up that intereview?

Ask Vegeta.

 

[adumbrodeus]

. . . How many times are people going to twist up that intereview?

They did.

There's still the question as to whether or not they will be used for playable, but they did.

 

[courte]

i like sheik --is that bad??
and i'd like to see her return--is that bad??

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

TP Zelda was suppose to be able to transform into Shiek anyway, just think of it as an ability that was TP Zelda had, but didn't use during the time period of gameplay

 

[Black/Light]

They did.

There's still the question as to whether or not they will be used for playable, but they did.

No, they didn't. They never said they made a TP Sheik design which is what Im refering to.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

No, they didn't. They never said they made a TP Sheik design which is what Im refering to.

Well, they did during the development of TP, intending to use it. I'm sure they used THOSE designs or designs very similar and sent them to Sakurai

 

[Black/Light]

Well, they did during the development of TP, intending to use it. I'm sure they used THOSE designs or designs very similar and sent them to Sakurai

Sigh*

Link or it didn't happen

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Sigh*

Link or it didn't happen

WHat, you really didn't know that. Wow, maybe you should do some research.

 

[Black/Light]

WHat, you really didn't know that. Wow, maybe you should do some research.

Maybe you should post a link giving me actual reason to believe this. . .

 

[adumbrodeus]

No, they didn't. They never said they made a TP Sheik design which is what Im refering to.

Of course, nobody stated that TP Sheik designs were made.

What was said was that there were designs made by the team that worked on TP that were submitted for possible use in Brawl, and Sheik was included among the characters that designs were submitted for.

The initial quote:

Which would be why Aonuma-san said that the TP artists are submitting a Sheik design for Sakurai to use for Brawl.

Aonuma: I’ve been working with Sakurai for a very long time with this new Smash Bros., because the Wii came out and when discussion for a new Smash Bros. took place nobody could think of anyone other than Sakurai working on it. He was kind of the default, and I was very happy to hear that he would be working on it. Actually, my designers did work on the designs for Sheik and Link and Ganondorf. So they submitted the initial designs, and so it would fit in the Smash Bros. Brawl environment, they’ve had to tweak some of the designs. But Sakurai has brought those altered designs to NCL. We’re working very closely with the team of Smash Bros. Brawl to make sure the characters look their best.

Source


You responded something saying that it was not true, changing your argument to say that something that isn't oppositional to the initial quote doesn't help in debunking it....



I keep an eye on the chain of discussion, pretending that your initial argument was something that it wasn't doesn't work on me, and furthermore, the changed argument doesn't help your case against Sheik being included.

 

[Black/Light]

Of course, nobody stated that TP Sheik designs were made.

What was said was that there were designs made by the team that worked on TP that were submitted for possible use in Brawl, and Sheik was included among the characters that designs were submitted for.

There must have been a miss-understanding on my part.
I thought the person was saying that they where making TP DESIGNS for Sheik (as in, they stated that they where making Sheik to look like she came FROM TP) in which case such things where never said. Must have jumped the gun on that one. . . .too many people say it the way I thought I heard it in that post.

You responded something saying that it was not true, changing your argument to say that something that isn't oppositional to the initial quote doesn't help in debunking it....

It was a missunderstanding. . . claim down. I haven't said jack to "debate" Sheik as of resent.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Care to explain why Melee Zelda was completely inspired by OOT Zelda?
Her taunt, moves. costume, voice.
If Melee Zelda was an incarnation of ALL Zelda's surely Sakurai would've included little nods to past Zelda's?
No, he used OOT exclusively.

I'm sorry, but where exactly would he have gotten Zelda's inspiration, correct me if I'm wrong (the addition of this is just clause a courtesy, I played through it again just recently) , but Zelda from A Link to the Past didn't get all that much screen time for character establishment. In Legend of Zelda she doesn't even appear till after Gannon is defeated, and again Zelda doesn't exactly play a strong part in the story except as a goal in Link's adventure.

Of course there's always Link's Awakening.... Oh wait, that was the only game in the series that Zelda played no part in, though it was awesome anyway.

Unless you're looking to have him include references to The Wand of Gamelon, Faces of Evil, and Zelda's adventure. Of course if that is what you're doing then I'll have to kill you.... (j/k, obviously, but I very much doubt that this would happen because I think nintendo, just like most Zelda fans, want to forget they ever existed).

Other portrayals, smash was released in 2001, same year as Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages so it's doubtful that even if she had played a major role (instead of just appearing at the absolute end after beating both games) that particular incarnation would've been taken into account, way too new to adjust smash for it.

I won't even bother going into 4 swords 4 swords adventures, Minish Cap, and Wind Waker (though Wind Waker did include a strong Zelda character) because they came out after SSBM, and Twilight Princess should be obvious.


So where does that leave us? Where do we have a strong Zelda character that came out before SSBM? Only Ocarina of Time, beyond it there simply is no material beyond stereotypical damsel in distress that never get any character development, nothing to inspire a character (unless you want to base it partially on games that basically blaspheme the series by their existence), so is it was the obvious choice to base Zelda almost entirely on her OoT persona, whereas Link they had the opportunity for more variety, even though they basically latched on stuff that was in most incarnations.



For this incarnation of Super Smash Brothers, they had more variety, Wind Waker had a good Zelda, as did Ocarina and Twilight Princess. They could've taken inspiration from any of the above for the various facets of Zelda. Heck, we still don't know what Zelda's final smash is, her down-b could be Ocarina of Time inspired and her final smash could be Wind Waker inspired or vice versa.

Saying Sheik represents all Zelda's doesn't help the argument, as Sheik represents OOT. How is this representing all Zelda's if her entire move set is inspired by OOT, but the only thing referencing any other game is her appearance?
It just doesn't sound right.

The Smash incarnation of Zelda represents all Zeldas, ergo any attribute of any of the various Zeldas that have existed in the LoZ series is usable as part of her smash incarnation. This obviously does not mean that they HAVE to use something from every Zelda, merely that they can use stuff from whatever Zelda they want.

Thus they can throw in stuff that represents OoT's incarnation, something that represents her Link's Awakening incarnation (in other words, not being in the game....), her Faces of Evil appearance (if they do this I swear I will kill puppies), or any other Zelda.


This has nothing to do with the whole "deserved reps theory" that's been going around to figure out who'll be in smash and who won't. It's simply that they can choose to reference to Zelda persona's of previous games. He wasn't forced to rep Twilight Princess with Zelda's default appearance, but Sakurai did.

Brawl Zelda could easily take to TP Zelda more than any others . So far, we know the goddesses spells are present, this could be a reference to ALL Zelda's having a close relationship to the goddesses , but could also be a nod to OOT. Now, to separate Zelda completely from OOT Zelda she could be given a new Down B. Light arrows. light arrows are gradually becoming associated with the character of Zelda. In all of her 3-D appearances she has been known to use, or be associated with light arrows. The arrows are already starting to be associated as Zelda's weapon of choice.
If Sakurai was to really represent ALL Zelda's, wouldn't light arrows be a better representation? rather than a WHOLE OOT inspired move set?



It makes more sense to replace Sheik with light arrows, give her an entrance referencing another Zelda, give her taunts referencing another Zelda, and THEN we have a Zelda that is a fused form of EVERY Zelda.

Well, he certainly could. As we pointed out, he could completely forget about every Zelda other then the Phillips CD-i games...

However my main point is that including Sheik isn't a blow to Zelda cannon, it's merely confirming that the Smash incarnation represents all Zelda personas, not simply the Zelda that she is the most similar to.

Link's move set is also completely TP inspired, along with his appearance, but his known taunts are from TP, and OOT, and his entrance is from Zelda 2.

There is a heavy influence of TP here, to relate to his appearance., but he also has little nods to different Link's . I don't see why Zelda can't have a heavy TP influence also.

Actually his moves are the TP variations of the his staple attacks which he's been using since day one of LoZ.

However the point remains that Link has had influence drawn from all over the place, as confirmed by you.


Which further confirms LoZ characters are representative of all their incarnations, and therefore elements from any incarnation can be used. Or not.


Personally, I'd love to see something Tetra-inspired in addition to Sheik's inclusion.

There must have been a miss-understanding on my part.
I thought the person was saying that they where making TP DESIGNS for Sheik (as in, they stated that they where making Sheik to look like she came FROM TP) in which case such things where never said. Must have jumped the gun on that one. . . .too many people say it the way I thought I heard it in that post.


It was a missunderstanding. . . claim down. I haven't said jack to "debate" Sheik as of resent.

Sorry, guess I was too hard on you, people try that all the time, I guess I shouldn't have assumed that you were doing it on purpose, you just misread the initial post and thought that the first guy was talking about TP models.

It happens.

 

[DarkSpidey13]

so since Kirby has Zelda's OoT hat, then that completely rules out the theory that Brawl Zelda is completely based off of TP. which leaves no reason for Sheik to be a separate character from Zelda...

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda's down B move should be Shiek again. An extra character without taking up a spot FTW!

Oh, and the argument with Shiek not being in TP is something I don't understand. If Ridley wasn't in Corruption would that affect his chances?

 

[Black/Light]

Zelda's down B move should be Shiek again. An extra character without taking up a spot FTW!

Oh, and the argument with Shiek not being in TP is something I don't understand. If Ridley wasn't in Corruption would that affect his chances?

No, that wouldn't effect his "chances" because he is a staple of the series/ the most recurring character other than Samus. Sheik is a whole other case. . . her appearance in the series was only in one game where she was never reused again+the Zelda who transformed into her is not in TP.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

No, that wouldn't effect his "chances" because he is a staple of the series/ the most recurring character other than Samus. Sheik is a whole other case. . . her appearance in the series was only in one game where she was never reused again+the Zelda who transformed into her is not in TP.

But Shiek is an established Smash character, and Smash Zelda is still different than TP Zelda

 

[Black/Light]

But Shiek is an established Smash character, and Smash Zelda is still different than TP Zelda

And Sheik's made up established move-set/ stats can go to another character well Zelda keeps some of her made up established melee moves + TP something or other (Light arrows/ Sword transformation w/e). Hell, Peach got a whole game for herself yet her moves stayed the same as in melee cause they where well made up established moves.

Look at Ness. . . he was a much more "established" smash character and he got the boot for no longer being relavent to his series. . .in favor of something newer and much more relavent (Lucas). And in doing so his move-set was passed on. I expeact the same from Sheik.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

And Sheik's made up established move-set/ stats can go to another character well Zelda keeps some of her made up established melee moves + TP something or other (Light arrows/ Sword transformation w/e). Hell, Peach got a whole game for herself yet her moves stayed the same as in melee cause they where well made up established moves.

Look at Ness. . . he was a much more "established" smash character and he got the boot for no longer being relavent to his series. . .in favor of something newer and much more relavent (Lucas). And in doing so his move-set was passed on. I expeact the same from Sheik.

Yet Lucas kept pretty much the same moves

 

[SmashBro99]

Right now Zelda is the character we have the least info on, so I'm pretty sure Sakurai will make Zelda's moveset + Sheik and her moves one big update, since Zelda has been left out in terms of updates.

Zelda transforms into Sheik as her final smash? (What the hell else can it possibly be? =\)

Think about it, since everyone thinks Sheik is 'broken' it would make you have to use Zelda until you can get a smash ball and pull off the smash.

 

[Black/Light]

Yet Lucas kept pretty much the same moves

Thats my point, the moves where pasted down ad changed some. IMO the one who took Sheik's moves was Zero. . . basing this on all the things I hear about how she plays and feel like Sheik/ what known moves she has.

 

[Mic_128]

But Shiek is an established Smash character

I didn't realise being in one game makes you an established character.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I didn't realise being in one game makes you an established character.

Then how exactly do you define a character as an established Smash character?

 

[Maggirus]

Question:
Zelda was a Shiekah in OoT. There are special cloths only Shiekah are wearing.
If I'm not wrong Zelda is wearing in TP a Shiekah dress, too. She's only not using their powers.
=> Shiek could return.
I hope I'm not wrong, Am I?


Maggirus

 

[adumbrodeus]

Question:
Zelda was a Shiekah in OoT. There are special cloths only Shiekah are wearing.
If I'm not wrong Zelda is wearing in TP a Shiekah dress, too. She's only not using their powers.
=> Shiek could return.
I hope I'm not wrong, Am I?


Maggirus

That's not particularly relevant because Sakurai gave us enough info to pretty much establish that he considers Zelda, Link, and Gannondorf representative of every incarnation in the franchise, and thus he can give the smash incarnation elements inspired by any game.

 

[RizardoLawless]

They made the Melee Shiek more feminine than the official artwork for Oot BTW...


So people could tell it was a female...

Shiek is hot

 

[The Noob Legend]

If Sheik does come back, she will probably be a lot more isolated from the likes of TP Zelda.
She will probably be her own individual self, no transformations.

That's my bet.

 

[Superninjabreadman]

Zelda should have light Arrows, she's used them in alot of the recent LoZs, they sorta need to be in.

Sheik=Out.

Zelda also sports her OoT outfit though. so your logic sorta fails.

 

[raphtmarqui]

The Smash incarnation of Zelda represents all Zeldas, ergo any attribute of any of the various Zeldas that have existed in the LoZ series is usable as part of her smash incarnation. This obviously does not mean that they HAVE to use something from every Zelda, merely that they can use stuff from whatever Zelda they want.

Thus they can throw in stuff that represents OoT's incarnation, something that represents her Link's Awakening incarnation (in other words, not being in the game....), her Faces of Evil appearance (if they do this I swear I will kill puppies), or any other Zelda.


This has nothing to do with the whole "deserved reps theory" that's been going around to figure out who'll be in smash and who won't. It's simply that they can choose to reference to Zelda persona's of previous games. He wasn't forced to rep Twilight Princess with Zelda's default appearance, but Sakurai did.

This is pretty much the bottom line. The Smash dev team can use whatever moves or abilities from any Zelda game in any amount to create Brawl Zelda's moveset. Weither or not Shiek is in the game is just a matter of if the dev team wants her in or not.
Case Closed.