Sheik, why she will return

[Dagingabreadman]

Ok first off, there probly(srry for the horrible spelling) has been Shiek thread made, but I believe this is a valid reason and I dont want it washed down with the other posts.

Now we know that Zelda is confirmed **SHOCKER!!!**, but sporting her new TP outfit. Now judging from the screenshots, she seems to more or less retain her moves from melee. But where did those moves come from? Well, Nayru's Love, Din's Fire and Farore's Wind all came from OoT. Mind you that they were not her moves, but Links magic moves.

So she still has her moves from melee, featuring moves from OoT, but with the TP?!?!? WTF?!?!? Yeah, well get over it. But what about her Down B move, Sheik? Why can Zelda not retain her up/neutral/side B, all moves from OoT, but not her down B, also from OoT?

"Because she is sporting her new TP outfit?" Did you even read this post?

Please Discuss

 

[Hejiru]

There was actually a report by IGN that said both Ganondorf and Sheik would be in Brawl. Anyway, I think they gave her those magic moves cause they didn't know what else to give her; she never fights. But now with Twilight Princess out.....

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

It's not official, it could be another rumor - game sites lie sometimes. Just like how Ice-Climbers were going to be removed...

I don't see why the TP outfit should mean that Shiek won't be back. Here's the thing, idiots:

She basically looks no different than before.

Seriously, it's just toned down colors and different hair. So what if she turns into Shiek? What is SO DETRAMENTAL??

 

[Guglio]

Continuity moron, thats what's different.

And Sheik is broken.

 

[Percon]

Eh... the only reason I can think of is that "ZSS is the new sheik" but that's not logical at all. I'm expecting sheik to make a comeback. The only problem is: why hasn't sheik been revealed yet? That's the only thing that worries me.

 

[EPX2]

Continuity moron, thats what's different.

And Sheik is broken.

...

...

So, instead of fixing a unique character, let's just exclude them from the game. That makes perfect sense!

Eh... the only reason I can think of is that "ZSS is the new sheik" but that's not logical at all. I'm expecting sheik to make a comeback. The only problem is: why hasn't sheik been revealed yet? That's the only thing that worries me.

Sheik hasn't been revealed for the same reason Captain Falcon, Ness, and so on haven't been: Sakurai just hasn't felt like it yet.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

They can fix Sheik to make her less broken.

The thing is, it LOOKED like Mario had his moves back, and we know what happened to him, Zelda's down B could've changed.

 

[Dagingabreadman]

So I'm a moron because of continuity. Uuhhhh.... I'm and avid LoZ fan, but since when has continuity becom a big part of that series, where there is a seeminglessly endless supply of links. Or in SSB where medieval link can fight against futuristic foz and Captain Falcon. Yeah, I thought so

 

[Arteen]

Continuity moron, thats what's different.

And continuity matters in SSB, how? We have Link and Young Link coexisting, and Mario fighting Dr. Mario. Captain Falcon's punches and kicks erupt with fire. Fox and Falco can teleport and shroud themselves in flame. We have Ness using moves that aren't his own. None of that makes sense canonically, but it's all in SSB. I really don't think Sakurai cares about continuity.

And Sheik is broken.

That can be fixed.

 

[AsILayDying]

mmmmh well sheik rocks, and i really doubt that it actually being such a popular character will be removed...

 

[Noshiee]

Continuity moron, thats what's different.

And Sheik is broken.

...so a lot of different franshise character kicking each other butts does have continuity...moron

also, sheik can be nerfed at any time, just like Kirby and ness where in Meele.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Oh yeah, if Sheik is in she'll be as nerfed as hell. Personally, I think Sheik should be made a lot weaker, her moves should have WAY less knockback. And Zelda should be powered up in some areas. Din's Fire was lame, for example.

 

[ZenJestr]

yea I think her Din's Fire should kinda shove em along, like what Marill did in Melee(Pokeball), before it explodes...

 

[raphtmarqui]

Im pretty sure sheik will return. I also can wait to see her in a new TP outtfit.

 

[Circus]

I don't care if you didn't want this post to get lost in all the other posts in the other Zelda/Sheik threads; it still didn't deserve it's own thread. Especially since the point you bring up has been brought up before.

I've gotten sick of explaining in detail why that's not a good reason for Sheik to be back as Zelda's down B, so I'll try and summarize it.

We've only seen two of Zelda's special moves. We've seen her teleport in a cutscene, which everyone assumes is Farore's Wind, and we've seen her use a fire-based attack that seems to work just like Din's Fire did in Melee. That does not mean that they are considered the same moves. We do not know that Din's Fire is called Din's Fire anymore. Same goes for Farore's Wind. Her new move's could be "Zelda's Fire" and "Teleport", for all we know. The only thing we really know about Zelda as a character is that she's magically-inclined. Always. So it makes sense for her to at least have some generic magic attacks. However, it does not make sense for her to transform into a character that she has no direct connection with.

The Zelda from Twilight Princes transforming into Sheik makes just as much sense as Mario transforming into Sheik. Could Sakurai still do it? Sure. But it would not make any sense. I don't care what anyone says—there is SOME level of sense to a moveset based on a character's. . . well, character. That's what keeps Mario from turning into Sheik.

There's no reason to think that Sheik is a shoe-in for Zelda's down B. Even if she's in the game, she could be a separate character or even an AT for all we know.

 

[Shuma]

No, there was a report that CONCEPTS of sheik and Ganondorf where sent for brawl. Or something like that.

 

[raphtmarqui]

However, it does not make sense for her to transform into a character that she has no direct connection with.

Zelda doesnt have a direct connection with herself?

 

[Shuma]

No, because the Zelda in twilight princes is the gran grand grand grand etc etc daughter of the Zelda/Sheik from OCarina.

Isn't it?

 

[Circus]

No, because the Zelda in twilight princes is the gran grand grand grand etc etc daughter of the Zelda/Sheik from OCarina.

Isn't it?

Give or take a "grand", yeah.

We're literally talking about a different character named Zelda here. It's not the same one that turned into Sheik in Ocarina of Time.

 

[raphtmarqui]

We're literally talking about a different character named Zelda here. It's not the same one that turned into Sheik in Ocarina of Time.

And what exactly is stopping her from putting on a tight ninja suit,picking up some needles and wrapping her hair up in a turban.

 

[Withouthatred]

Wasn't sheik and ganondorf confirmed in some artical?....

 

[Circus]

And what exactly is stopping her from putting on a tight ninja suit,picking up some needles and wrapping her hair up in a turban.

Nothing.

But what's stopping Peach from doing the same thing? If Peach did that, would you say that makes sense with her character?

 

[Shuma]

Again.

No, there was a report that CONCEPTS of sheik and Ganondorf where sent for brawl. Or something like that.

It doesn't confirm anything.

 

[Noshiee]

so what if TP Zelda turns into Sheik, "it would ruin the continuity", yeah right, like pink ball Kirby, electric rat Pikachu, fairy boy Link and mustashed plummer Mario kicking each other butts has any continuity.

Continuity doesnt have anything to do with this, 'couse as far as Ive seen, Sakurai doesnt give a crap about continuity ¬¬

 

[raphtmarqui]

But what's stopping Peach from doing the same thing?

The fact that her character has never done that in a game before. Zelda has. And yes OOT and TP Zelda are the same character. Sure they may be different ppl in the storyline but they are the same character.

 

[LightLink17]

And what exactly is stopping her from putting on a tight ninja suit,picking up some needles and wrapping her hair up in a turban.

The same thing that's stopping Mario. It'd be stupid.

This is a different character. This is not only a different Zelda, it's a Zelda 100 years in the future, the future of a world in which Shiek NEVER EVEN EXISTED. So *why* would the idea of turning into, what to her, would seem a random needless person with no basis, ever occur? There wouldn't even be old stories of Princess Zelda turning into this alter ego. There wouldn't even be a Shieka for Zelda to even base it off of. It's actually not a big deal that Zelda can still do OoT spells. They are SPELLS. You don't need to think about them and invent them all anew. If they existed 100 years ago, which they did, you can just look them up and learn them again. You can't realistically manage to come up with an alter ego *for no reason* that just happens to be exactly the same as an alter ego your ancestor *would have* made, had things gone differently.

Now, I'm all for Shiek in brawl. Well, I don't care more like. But it's just dumb for this new Zelda to turn into Shiek. It'd be like this Zelda turning into Tetra. It'd just dumb. So if Shiek is in brawl, he'd better be a separate character or something.

Debate over.

 

[Xsyven]

Since when is SSBB about making logical sense in franchises?

When was the last time Mario had a cape? When was the last time Peach could float, or pull Turnips out of the ground?

Every character is an entire mesh of every game they've ever had. It's not a tough concept to work out.

Zelda's BIGGEST and most story-moving detail was in her OoT iteration, where she played a huge part in the storyline. Sure, she doesn't look like she did in OoT, but it's probably for the same reason that the Ice Climbers and Pit aren't 8 bit characters anymore.

 

[Circus]

The fact that her character has never done that in a game before. Zelda has.

No. Not this Zelda.

And yes OOT and TP Zelda are the same character.

No. . . they're not. o_O

Sure they may be different ppl in the storyline but they are the same character.

No. They are not the same character. By being "different people in the storyline" they are effectively different characters. They are two different characters who fill the same niche in each game. The Zeldas always fill the same "princess with a triforce piece" position, but they are different Zeldas.

 

[Circus]

Every character is an entire mesh of every game they've ever had. It's not a tough concept to work out.

Tell that to Link. Have you seen his moveset for Brawl? ALL updated to work with his TP iteration. They didn't have to update his boomerang to the Gale Boomerang or make his bombs looks different. But they did.

Sure, she doesn't look like she did in OoT, but it's probably for the same reason that the Ice Climbers and Pit aren't 8 bit characters anymore.

The difference is, Zelda has actually been given a design from a specific game, where as Pit's and IC's outfits are essentially the same as always—just better looking. It's not at all the same scenario.

EDIT: ****. I was hoping someone would've posted by now. O_<

 

[raphtmarqui]

No. Not this Zelda.

No. . . they're not. o_O


No. They are not the same character. By being "different people in the storyline" they are effectively different characters. They are two different characters who fill the same niche in each game. The Zeldas always fill the same "princess with a triforce piece" position, but they are different Zeldas.

Fine, since your name is Shigeru Miyamoto and you created the Zelda franchise and know for sure that there different characters and you know everything there is to know about Zelda; we'll go ahead and assume that their the same. Either way (as Xsyven said) Smash characters are representatives of their character from all of the games they've been in which in turn allows them to use abilities from any game.

 

[Zero_P]

I never was a fan of shiek, but I think he should make a return because zelda is already in so why not shiek?

 

[Circus]

Fine, since your name is Shigeru Miyamoto and you created the Zelda franchise and know for sure that there different characters and you know everything there is to know about Zelda; we'll go ahead and assume that their the same.

Please don't get snippy with me. It is a fact that the Zelda in each game of the LoZ series is a different person; I'm not talking outta my *** here. Whether you want to consider them the same character but not the same person is irrelevant, and I'd prefer not to get into semantics. The fact that they are different people is at least enough for me to be bothered by the idea of this Zelda becoming Sheik. Sakurai very well may disagree with me. I'm just stating what I believe and why I believe it.

Either way (as Xsyven said) Smash characters are representatives of their character from all of the games they've been in which in turn allows them to use abilities from any game.

Except the Link we see in Brawl only uses attacks that his iteration in TP used. And at the moment, we know next to nothing about Zelda's moves. So that isn't entirely true.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Fine, since your name is Shigeru Miyamoto and you created the Zelda franchise and know for sure that there different characters and you know everything there is to know about Zelda; we'll go ahead and assume that their the same. Either way (as Xsyven said) Smash characters are representatives of their character from all of the games they've been in which in turn allows them to use abilities from any game.

Dude, MIYAMOTO SAID IT. It's set 100 years or so after OoT. MIYAMOTO SAID IT. And any Zelda fan knows we've been having different Links and Zeldas since the SNES, so it is actually common knowledge, even if Miyamoto hadn't said it. WHICH HE DID.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Please don't get snippy with me.

Sorry, mom

Except the Link we see in Brawl only uses attacks that his iteration in TP used.

What else would he use? Grown Link has pretty much the same attacks in every game.

Dude, MIYAMOTO SAID IT. It's set 100 years or so after OoT. MIYAMOTO SAID IT. And any Zelda fan knows we've been having different Links and Zeldas since the SNES, so it is actually common knowledge, even if Miyamoto hadn't said it. WHICH HE DID.

Link? Or should i just take ur word for it?

 

[LightLink17]

What else would he use? Grown Link has pretty much the same attacks in every game.

Um, did you not read them? TP Link has different iterations of his moves that are suited solely for TP, which blows that "Characters are always conglomerates of all their games" theory out of the water.

Those bombs are different bombs, that boomerang is a different boomerang. Fitted for TP.

 

[Circus]

Sorry, mom

Apology accepted. But go to your room.

What else would he use? Grown Link has pretty much the same attacks in every game.

But they still didn't need to update them. They could've given him back the same dinky boomerang he had before, but they opted for the Gale Boomerang. They could've left the bombs the way they were, but they gave them a purely aesthetic design change just so it was clear that they were from Twilight Princess. They didn't need to do that. But making these moves Twilight Princess specific proves the "characters represent their entire franchise" doesn't hold true for every character.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Sorry, mom

What else would he use? Grown Link has pretty much the same attacks in every game.

*facepalm*

Dude, Link has no hookshot. His boomerang is the Gale version, instead of the boring one from OoT... he has slight differences, and they were implemented.

Mario also got a new attack. Sakurai is indeed updating the characters.

I do not mind Sheik however, I like her as a character, but I never used her. (well, for the first 2 years or so, afterwards I got too much punishment for doing the Sheik/Zelda thing so I stopped) but even if she's in, I would have to accept it as kinda stupid.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Um, did you not read them? TP Link has different iterations of his moves that are suited solely for TP, which blows that "Characters are always conglomerates of all their games" theory out of the water.

Those bombs are different bombs, that boomerang is a different boomerang. Fitted for TP.

I was referring to their applications, not their appearances.

 

[EPX2]

The Zelda in the SSB series is not from any specific game in the LoZ series; while her look is definitely influenced by the most recent Zelda game, that doesn't make SSB Zelda tied to the same restrictions that TP Zelda faces.

 

[Arteen]

The Zelda from Twilight Princes transforming into Sheik makes just as much sense as Mario transforming into Sheik.

...which makes just as much sense as Captain Falcon's fist exploding into a fiery phoenix after he shouts "FALCON PUNCH!!!" as I've stated previously. It makes as much sense as a fireflower acting like a flamethrower. It makes as much sense as Mario being able to spit out fireballs when he isn't wearing his white-and-red outfit. It makes as much sense as Luigi shooting gravity-defying green fireballs. It makes as much sense as Zelda using OoT Link's magic moves. It makes as much sense as Fox having a reflector, teleportation abilities, and the abilty to surround himself in flame. It makes as much sense as Ice Climbers being able to use ice elemental attacks. It makes as much sense as Young Link using the hookshot.

Clearly, continuity does not matter.

The only reason Link and Zelda are in their TP incarnations is art direction. The Fox (and ICs, and Pit) in Brawl does not look like any specific version of Fox from any of the games. Continuity-wise, he never looks like that. It's art direction. Sure, Link's moves are TP-themed. So what? They're still essentially that same move from the previous SSBs, except with a few tweaks and an update in art direction to fit the modern look. There is absolutely nothing stopping them from giving Sheik a makeover as well. Sure, Zelda from TP is technically a different Zelda than from OoT, but so what? In Brawl, she's still representing Zelda in general. The developers just chose to give her an updated, detailed design to match Link's updated, detailed design.