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Sheik, why she will return

kin3tic-c4jun-3

Smash Ace
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Jun 28, 2007
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Ontario, Canada
You people get so riled up about continuity.

WHO CARES? It's a fighting game!

BTW, Zelda in Brawl represents every Zelda. Who says it can't?

Therefore, Shiek could stay.

Snake never uses the Cypher in his game. In fact, it worked against him. It doesn't matter though - it's still FROM the game, and it still FITS fine. Same case here. Don't get worked up about it over stupid reasons. You really don't have to care.
 

LightLink17

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 19, 2007
Messages
170
...which makes just as much sense as Captain Falcon's fist exploding into a fiery phoenix after he shouts "FALCON PUNCH!!!" as I've stated previously.
Except in one, there's nothing DIRECTLY CONTRADICTING the ability, and in the other, we know for a fact it shouldn't be done.
It makes as much sense as a fireflower acting like a flamethrower.
No, that makes some sense.

It makes as much sense as Mario being able to spit out fireballs when he isn't wearing his white-and-red outfit. It makes as much sense as Luigi shooting gravity-defying green fireballs. It makes as much sense as Zelda using OoT Link's magic moves. It makes as much sense as Fox having a reflector, teleportation abilities, and the abilty to surround himself in flame. It makes as much sense as Ice Climbers being able to use ice elemental attacks. It makes as much sense as Young Link using the hookshot.

Clearly, continuity does not matter.
Interesting. Considering all of that makes sense. Young Link did have a hookshot. The way fire-mario works isn't inherent in the outfit. OoT Link didn't have those "moves" he was given them as spells, and nothing is stopping those great faeries from giving Zelda the same spells, nor is anything stopping those spells from being in books that any ol' Zelda could pick up. Etc etc. Light liberty may be taken for a better game, but nothing drastic that outright conflicts with what we know of the world that these characters come from.

Sure, Zelda from TP is technically a different Zelda than from OoT, but so what?
Sure, Mario is technically a different character, but so what? He should be able to turn into Shiek.

Ahuh. Yeah right.
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
BRoomer
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Messages
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...which makes just as much sense as Captain Falcon's fist exploding into a fiery phoenix after he shouts "FALCON PUNCH!!!" as I've stated previously. It makes as much sense as a fireflower acting like a flamethrower. It makes as much sense as Mario being able to spit out fireballs when he isn't wearing his white-and-red outfit. It makes as much sense as Luigi shooting gravity-defying green fireballs. It makes as much sense as Zelda using OoT Link's magic moves. It makes as much sense as Fox having a reflector, teleportation abilities, and the abilty to surround himself in flame. It makes as much sense as Ice Climbers being able to use ice elemental attacks. It makes as much sense as Young Link using the hookshot.
Yes. And most of those things (with a few exceptions, like Mario's fireballs, Fox's reflector, etc.) bother me. My point in this thread is not that Sheik can't be a part of Zelda's moveset. It's that it would bother me if she were. The fact that there are already several liberties being taken with the movesets of other characters does not mean they should continue to do so until all the characters lose their identities.

If Sheik ends up being a part of Zelda's moveset again, I'll get over it just like I did with Fox's Firefox, Adult Link's boomerang, Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch, etc. But it would still be a blemish on the game as far as I'm concerned.

Clearly, continuity does not matter.
So what you're telling me is that if Mario transformed into Sheik in Brawl, you wouldn't bat an eyelash?

The only reason Link and Zelda are in their TP incarnations is art direction.
Perhaps. But that art direction seems to have influenced Link's moveset rather profoundly.

The Fox (and ICs, and Pit) in Brawl does not look like any specific version of Fox from any of the games. Continuity-wise, he never looks like that. It's art direction.
Are you kidding? He looks just like he does in Command. Just more detailed (the fur texture). His eyes, his snout, the bell shape of his head—that's all clearly inspired by Command. They just took some liberties with what he's wearing, which is still more or less the same thing he always wears (which remains the same in Command).

He's the Fox from Command with a graphical upgrade and some nicer boots.

Sure, Link's moves are TP-themed. So what? They're still essentially that same move from the previous SSBs, except with a few tweaks and an update in art direction to fit the modern look.
Which, again, they didn't need to do. If Link is supposed to represent the all-encompassing Link of every game in his franchise, why is he so Twilight Princess based? Why did they bother altering EVERYTHING about him to make him just like the Link from Twilight Princess?


There is absolutely nothing stopping them from giving Sheik a makeover as well.
No, there isn't. Doesn't mean they should do it.

Sure, Zelda from TP is technically a different Zelda than from OoT, but so what? In Brawl, she's still representing Zelda in general.
According to who? We don't know that for a fact.

The developers just chose to give her an updated, detailed design to match Link's updated, detailed design.
They told you personally? That seems like a pretty large assumption.
 

kin3tic-c4jun-3

Smash Ace
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Circus, you're not impressing anyone with your thousand-quote posts.

The simple facts are that Shiek is a good character. Shiek is an important character. Shiek is cool. Shiek has many users.

The coolest thing about Shiek is the fact that she transforms from Zelda.

Continuity does not matter as much as in a full fledged exclusive game. If Zelda turns into an updateded Shiek, so? Why do people insist on saying that the continuity is such a big deal? More like people just hate Shiek.

And who's to say that Brawl Zelda does NOT represent all Zeldas?

BTW, Mario's appearance is updated, toned down, and slightly different from his Sunshine look - but he's still got FLUDD, *****es.

What now?
 

EPX2

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
557
No, there isn't. Doesn't mean they should do it.

Yes, why should they try to preserve a popular character with a unique moveset? *rolls eyes*
 

Bajef8

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Nowhere, Alaska
Continuity moron, thats what's different.

And Sheik is broken.
so fix her. is it that hard for a game programer to fix her charcter? PT looks like he's gonna be well balanced since it says you have to switch them becuase they'll get over-tired so why not do the same with zelda? they can make it so sheik isn't so high tier and make zekda a little more equal to sheik. or pull a PT and make sheik's used limited like PT's pokemon.
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
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Circus, you're not impressing anyone with your thousand-quote posts.
Nor am I trying to. I break up the quotes so that I can respond to different points in each quote more directly. It keeps things more organized. I do it for my own good, not yours. Does that somehow offend you?

The simple facts are that Shiek is a good character. Shiek is an important character. Shiek is cool. Shiek has many users.
Sheik, may be a good character, but there are lots of good characters in video games. Sheik is only important in one Zelda game. Whether or not Sheik is cool is subjective. And Sheik has many users because she's got godly knockback. Yes, I know, she has a legitimate fanbase, but all characters do. Goombas have a fanbase. Doesn't mean they should be in.

Besides, I'm perfectly fine with Sheik being in Brawl. I would just prefer it if she weren't attached to Zelda.

The coolest thing about Shiek is the fact that she transforms from Zelda.
I would have to agree, considering that's one of the few notable things about her aside from teaching Link a few songs.

Continuity does not matter as much as in a full fledged exclusive game. If Zelda turns into an updateded Shiek, so? Why do people insist on saying that the continuity is such a big deal? More like people just hate Shiek.
If it doesn't bother you, then that's great. But I don't think it's at all unreasonable to have a problem with continuity in this manner. I just want the characters that I love to be represented as closely to their actual identity as possible. Is that so outrageous?

And who's to say that Brawl Zelda does NOT represent all Zeldas?
She could, I suppose. That's why I maintain that the Sheik transformation is still possible. It just shouldn't be seen as a shoe-in for Brawl (contrary to what the title of this thread suggests).

BTW, Mario's appearance is updated, toned down, and slightly different from his Sunshine look - but he's still got FLUDD, *****es.
Mario is also the same Mario in every single one of his games. It's not the same situation that Zelda is in.

What now?
How now, Brown Cow?
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
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Anyone who says Sheik will be in Brawl is dumber than a brick, but anyone who says she will not be in Brawl is equally foolish.

The fact remains: Sheik is unconfirmed. There have been random rumors circulating, but there is no proof either way.
 

Salaad

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Anyone who says Sheik will be in Brawl is dumber than a brick, but anyone who says she will not be in Brawl is equally foolish.

The fact remains: Sheik is unconfirmed. There have been random rumors circulating, but there is no proof either way.


Sheik is in Brawl. ;)
 

gregthepirate

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I really can't believe how upset everyone is getting about this. It's a character. A character that will either be confirmed, or not. Everyone will still buy brawl with or without he/she/it/potato.

Really.

Sheik is in brawl. Sheik isn't in brawl.
What's the difference? I'm not Sakurai.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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I really can't believe how upset everyone is getting about this. It's a character. A character that will either be confirmed, or not. Everyone will still buy brawl with or without he/she/it/potato.

Really.

Sheik is in brawl. Sheik isn't in brawl.
What's the difference? I'm not Sakurai.
quoted for vanilla
 

Arteen

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If Sheik ends up being a part of Zelda's moveset again, I'll get over it just like I did with Fox's Firefox, Adult Link's boomerang, Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch, etc. But it would still be a blemish on the game as far as I'm concerned.
So basically your objection isn't so much about Sheik specifically but the lack of continuity in general, when obviously the development team doesn't have the same opinion on the issue as you?

So what you're telling me is that if Mario transformed into Sheik in Brawl, you wouldn't bat an eyelash?
Continuity doesn't matter within reason. In the realm of SSB, does it really matter which specific Zelda it is? I don't see how it's such a travesty to draw moves from more than one game, especially since OoT Zelda and TP Zelda are pretty similar anyway and SSB Zelda already uses Link's OoT magic moves.

Perhaps. But that art direction seems to have influenced Link's moveset rather profoundly.
Not really. All his moves are exactly the same except for the boomarang. Every character's moves are going to be tweaked somewhat anyway. Mario has the FLUDD now, so I don't think it's unreasonable to tweak one of Link's moves as well.

He's the Fox from Command with a graphical upgrade and some nicer boots.
Okay, I'll grant you that he's has the build of Fox from Command but with liberties on his outfit. It's just that he's just never had that style of outfit or that personality in any of his games. In Brawl he has a somewhat aggressive, cocky, arrogant look to him, but in all the Star Fox games he is shown as confident, yet still serious and reserved. And his Command outfit is the same as his original/64 outfit, and this outfit is drastically different.

Which, again, they didn't need to do. If Link is supposed to represent the all-encompassing Link of every game in his franchise, why is he so Twilight Princess based? Why did they bother altering EVERYTHING about him to make him just like the Link from Twilight Princess?
Why not? Every character is getting a graphical upgrade (except Kirby...), so why not Link too? SSB has always featured adult Link as the main playable Link, so why not use his new, more detailed look? Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if Link got a graphical upgrade from Melee even if no Zelda games were released since Melee. And they're altering almost nothing about him any more than they're altering any other characters. His clawshot will likely work just like his hookshot, his new bombs will probably still work like his old bombs, his arrows are still arrows, and his boomarang has small tweak to it but otherwise seems exactly the same in every other area.

According to who? We don't know that for a fact.
As you said, OoT-style adult Link had a boomarang in the previous SSB games, but in OoT he didn't have it. So either the developers purposely disregard continuity, or they're representing more than just Adult Link from OoT with the SSB version of Link. I don't see how Zelda would be treated differently.

They told you personally? That seems like a pretty large assumption.
Educated guess. It would be like giving Mario is super-detailed overalls (which he never has in his own games, if that happens to irk you), but leaving Luigi less detailed. It would look aesthetically inconsistent.
Response in bold.
 

killbeast301

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quoted for vanilla
CHOCOLATE!!!!!!!!

I'll post my opinion too.

Zelda's design is from TP. Sheik only appeared in OoT. This makes little difference, as they could update her look, but some people might complain.

Sheik only ever appeared in 1 game. And all she did was teach you songs. She's not that important to the series.

Most of her popularity comes from her being so easy to use in melee. Brawl will be a new game, so that doesn't matter.
 

Shuma

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I don't really know what's the big deal, if Sheik is in brawl she will be nerfed or other characters will be buffed, and that's the only reason people hate her. So what's the big deal?
 

Circus

Rhymes with Jerkus
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So basically your objection isn't so much about Sheik specifically but the lack of continuity in general, when obviously the development team doesn't have the same opinion on the issue as you?
Yup. Pretty much. Though I do think that several people want Sheik back just because of her performance in Melee, which also bothers me, but not the point.

Continuity doesn't matter within reason. In the realm of SSB, does it really matter which specific Zelda it is? I don't see how it's such a travesty to draw moves from more than one game, especially since OoT Zelda and TP Zelda are pretty similar anyway and SSB Zelda already uses Link's OoT magic moves.
We don't know that her moves are supposed to be at all connected to Ocarina of Time yet. I've grown to accept the liberties Smash takes with it's characters, but I still plan on complaining about this Zelda/Sheik situation until it's officially resolved (and possibly for a short time afterward, depending on the results. . .).

Not really. All his moves are exactly the same except for the boomarang. Every character's moves are going to be tweaked somewhat anyway. Mario has the FLUDD now, so I don't think it's unreasonable to tweak one of Link's moves as well.
Well sure. But the aesthetic changes are still important. It seems like the creators went out of their way to make Link more TP oriented. The design change to the bombs, for example, is completely unnecessary. The only purpose it serves is to say "Yeah, these are from Twilight Princess". They didn't need to implement that.

Okay, I'll grant you that he's has the build of Fox from Command but with liberties on his outfit. It's just that he's just never had that style of outfit or that personality in any of his games. In Brawl he has a somewhat aggressive, cocky, arrogant look to him, but in all the Star Fox games he is shown as confident, yet still serious and reserved.
I imagine it's tough to convey much personality in a game like Smash, but I see your point. I guess I just always gave Fox his "fitting" personality anyway since SSB64 and Melee didn't offer much in the way of personality traits other than that scowl permanently etched on his mug.

And his Command outfit is the same as his original/64 outfit, and this outfit is drastically different.
Arguably just upgraded. Certain key elements remain the same (the presence of a jacket, the green suit underneath, the weird. . . ascot. . . thing), but yeah, his outfit is certainly one giant liberty being taken.

Why not? Every character is getting a graphical upgrade (except Kirby...), so why not Link too? SSB has always featured adult Link as the main playable Link, so why not use his new, more detailed look? Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if Link got a graphical upgrade from Melee even if no Zelda games were released since Melee. And they're altering almost nothing about him any more than they're altering any other characters.
But they could've given him a graphical upgrade without using the one specifically from TP. They could've made him more detailed, but still "generic" (if that makes ANY sense at all. . .). You said yourself that you think Link would've gotten a graphical upgrade regardless of TP (which I agree with), so why didn't the do that instead of picking TP Link's design and changing all his moves to suit? It just seems like they were very focused on making him the Link from Twilight Princess, when they didn't need to be.

His clawshot will likely work just like his hookshot, his new bombs will probably still work like his old bombs, his arrows are still arrows, and his boomarang has small tweak to it but otherwise seems exactly the same in every other area.
In application, certainly. But the aesthetic is key here. All his moves work in at least a similar way to how they did in Melee. They could have given Link all his old weapons back. Instead, they went out of their way to TP-ify them.

As you said, OoT-style adult Link had a boomarang in the previous SSB games, but in OoT he didn't have it. So either the developers purposely disregard continuity, or they're representing more than just Adult Link from OoT with the SSB version of Link. I don't see how Zelda would be treated differently.
I see hope for Zelda (well, I call it hope. You may disagree) with the fact that Link does seem to hold on to continuity in this Smash. Not a single one of his moves that we've seen is something that we didn't see him do in Twilight Princess (the first time in Smash history actually. Maybe we should throw a part).

Zelda may not get this treatment; you're absolutely right. I'm just saying Link gives me hope. The creators have clearly shown that holding true to canon is not nearly as important to them as it is to me.

Educated guess. It would be like giving Mario is super-detailed overalls (which he never has in his own games, if that happens to irk you), but leaving Luigi less detailed. It would look aesthetically inconsistent.
This is true. However, I find it strange that Sakurai and his buddies would TP-ify Zelda to avoid aesthetic inconsistency, yet they'd happily leave her moveset canonically inconsistent without a second thought.

Not to say they wouldn't, just that I find it strange.

And for the record, I love Mario's super-detailed overalls. He wears them well. :)
 

Drake3

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Why? Why was this topic even created? Haven't we already seen 50 different Sheik/Zelda topics? The creator, somehow missing the previous 50 topics which all mention the exact same things, didn't even bring anything new to the table. This topic should've been closed as soon as he posted it.

Zelda's BIGGEST and most story-moving detail was in her OoT iteration, where she played a huge part in the storyline.
What are you talking about? What did she do to the story besides dress up like a man and become a music teacher?

Personally, I think TP Zelda's character is much more engrossing and much better done than OoT's. This time her story draws sympathy to the character. She actually, y'know, interacts with people and does things in this one.

And I don't understand why people say that Zelda can't use a sword:

What did she drop when Zant attacked her castle? A sword. Ergo, she was ready to fight Zant in the same method that her soldiers did but realised they wouldn't have won.
 

adumbrodeus

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Continuity moron, thats what's different.

And Sheik is broken.
The charecters in smash represent all versions of the character, just skewed towards one or the other in various ways.

You'll note how Smash's Link was able to use the bommerang when in OoT, only young link could use it, and how Young Link featured the same moveset even though he couldn't use bow or hookshot, obviously messed up continuity, unless you consider that .... by God, there were other legend of Zelda games, were Link could always use arrows, hookshot and boomerang, and there was no distinction between young and old.


Ah, and yeah, new game, what makes you think that Sheik will be broken this game? Think about Ness and Kirby....


Speaking of broken currently characters.... Fox was already confirmed, if they confirmed the most totally broken character, what makes you think that broken or not has anything to do with it. Seriously, Fox is so much more broken then Sheik it's not even funny, Sheik is just easier to play.
 

vesperview

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Why? Why was this topic even created? Haven't we already seen 50 different Sheik/Zelda topics? The creator, somehow missing the previous 50 topics which all mention the exact same things, didn't even bring anything new to the table. This topic should've been closed as soon as he posted it.



What are you talking about? What did she do to the story besides dress up like a man and become a music teacher?

Personally, I think TP Zelda's character is much more engrossing and much better done than OoT's. This time her story draws sympathy to the character. She actually, y'know, interacts with people and does things in this one.

And I don't understand why people say that Zelda can't use a sword:

What did she drop when Zant attacked her castle? A sword. Ergo, she was ready to fight Zant in the same method that her soldiers did but realised they wouldn't have won.
Zelda's rapier is not even in Brawl, I don't see how this fits into the Sheik argument.
 

adumbrodeus

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Yeah, but they Can't take Fox out, so that's irrelevant.
Well, they could... anything can happen in Brawl.


But my point is that current brokeness didn't effect Fox's chances, or (in the SSB to SSBM transition) Ness's, or Kirby's, why would it effect Sheik's?

It's far more logical to assume that they'll get the Ness treatment, and just be nerfed relative to the other characters.
 

Igneous42

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I never though that saying solely "she has her tp look" was ever a valid reason for sheik not being in.

Though Zelda was an unappreciated character and sheik isn't really important anymore. Not saying she can't or won't be in but I definitely think it's possible. Plus I find it strange that sakurai would wait so long to unveil her.
 

Shuma

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I agree, but taking out Fox would be like taking out Link, he is the main representative for the Star-FOX series, they would have to take out the whole Rosted if they did.
 

adumbrodeus

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Though Zelda was an unappreciated character and sheik isn't really important anymore. Not saying she can't or won't be in but I definitely think it's possible. Plus I find it strange that sakurai would wait so long to unveil her.
Sheik is NOT a character, she is an aspect of a character, and her importance directly corresponds to the unimportance of the main character (and if it's only related to one incarnation of that character, the importance of that incarnation, usually related to how important what that one incarnation appeared in is). OoT is old, but now classic, thus Sheik is still relevant

Sakurai is doing quite a few strange things, I think he's mindgaming us personally.



I agree, but taking out Fox would be like taking out Link, he is the main representative for the Star-FOX series, they would have to take out the whole Rosted if they did.
Probably, unless they break with pattern, and sub in a different Starfox character for Fox. Obviously it didn't happen, but Sakurai said that anything could happen, so even Fox wasn't 100% till he was confirmed.

And yes, he could've taken Link out too, or even Mario.
 

Drake3

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Zelda's rapier is not even in Brawl, I don't see how this fits into the Sheik argument.
It was just a little something that I had to put in because of all the other Zelda/Sheik topics. People were constantly saying how "Zelda only uses it in that one last fight, and even then she didn't even use it" (I think that's vague/clear enough not to need spoilers) and how it's "only a part of the concept art".

It was only a point to the fact that they could have redone Zelda based on TP with her rapier, bow, and light magic. Anyway, if Sheik is taken out, Down+B could be Rapier-Zelda. Or her moves could be re-arranged to include the Light Bow etc.
 

kin3tic-c4jun-3

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@ Circus

Your posts are tedious to read, as there are so many irrelevancies with your quotes.

ex.
What now?
How now, Brown Cow?
Not only did you use the lamest response to that, and sounded like an idiot, you have also filled up space that doesn't even need to be there. That was the point.

Moreover, you bring up the example that goombas have a fan-base. This makes little sense, because everyone knows Shiek is a more significant character than a Goomba is.

In OoT, Shiek does play an important role - I'm not going to argue with you on this becasue I can sense it'll be like talking to a wall.

OoT, is THE MOST important Zelda game - period.

Again, don't get wrapped up over a minor continuity 'error', it's all in good fun.
 

Shadowbolt

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People shouldn't be ignoring a blatant continuity error just because they want to play as Sheik. We're in TP now, not OoT; if Sheik gets in, it'll mess everything up.
 

Tony_

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All of the Shiek ***s in this topic need to realize that even IF Shiek is in Brawl, she will be an AT. NOT a hidden character, like every one wants. Seriously, all the whining I have seen in this topic are all from Shiek mains.
 

EPX2

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People shouldn't be ignoring a blatant continuity error just because they want to play as Sheik. We're in TP now, not OoT; if Sheik gets in, it'll mess everything up.
And once again, TP Zelda =/= SSB Zelda. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp? Sheik will be back as a transformation of Zelda, regardless of what children like Tony insist.
 

blerb

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I don't care if you didn't want this post to get lost in all the other posts in the other Zelda/Sheik threads; it still didn't deserve it's own thread. Especially since the point you bring up has been brought up before.

I've gotten sick of explaining in detail why that's not a good reason for Sheik to be back as Zelda's down B, so I'll try and summarize it.

We've only seen two of Zelda's special moves. We've seen her teleport in a cutscene, which everyone assumes is Farore's Wind, and we've seen her use a fire-based attack that seems to work just like Din's Fire did in Melee. That does not mean that they are considered the same moves. We do not know that Din's Fire is called Din's Fire anymore. Same goes for Farore's Wind. Her new move's could be "Zelda's Fire" and "Teleport", for all we know. The only thing we really know about Zelda as a character is that she's magically-inclined. Always. So it makes sense for her to at least have some generic magic attacks. However, it does not make sense for her to transform into a character that she has no direct connection with.

The Zelda from Twilight Princes transforming into Sheik makes just as much sense as Mario transforming into Sheik. Could Sakurai still do it? Sure. But it would not make any sense. I don't care what anyone says—there is SOME level of sense to a moveset based on a character's. . . well, character. That's what keeps Mario from turning into Sheik.

There's no reason to think that Sheik is a shoe-in for Zelda's down B. Even if she's in the game, she could be a separate character or even an AT for all we know.
you're ignoring the fact that zelda is still the same character, it's not like she changed or something.

'oh noes, the looks are different let's cut one of our best characters'

quite obviously, mario turning into sheik would be very dumb. but Zelda, a character that originally turned into sheik would make sense. it's like saying mario can't use his FLUDD because his design is different then it was in SMS. Sakurai is like a god, he can do anything he wants, when he wants it.

while the attacks may have changed, it still doesn't make a difference if the name changed. they're the same move. it's like saying McDonalds changed their name to McWeiners, Uh Oh, they can't sell Big Macs anymore!

I do agree that it's a stupid reason for thinking Sheik will be back, but the way you countered it needed a little bit more thought.
 

Zoinkslls

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 1, 2007
Messages
163
Location
Zorg, CA
Actually, Sheik could definitely return, I mean, Zero Suit Samus uses speed, Sheik uses speed, you can tone down the damage Sheik does, do some other stuff, then you have a somewhat equal character. Sakurai's team failed to make Sheik equal to everyone else in Melee, but that doesn't mean they can't change that in Brawl.
 
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