Sheik, why she will return

[EPX2]

... looks like Zelda still has her OoT look. Guess that means Sheik is in, right? I mean, after all, the appearance argument works both ways...

 

[raphtmarqui]

Shiek can easily still be in

 

[DeuceBlade]

I don't think the design of Zelda will effect sheik , since.. TP Zelda is just the reincarnation of OoT Zelda meaning an essence of sheik could still be inside her, most likely in the lower B part of her.

 

[Iris]

As long as Sakurai remains quiet, there's nothing at all available which will determine Sheik's involvement.

Also, I don't see the logic behind "He hasn't had Zelda updated and she wasn't in E for All, Sheik MUST be back." It's just as likely, if not more, that he's withholding information because he doesn't want to deconfirm her. Think about it, she was never unlockable, and everyone knew Zelda could turn into Sheik from Melee, why would he be holding it back? It'd be like keeping Peach's turnips secret. He probably doesn't want to let people down yet.

 

[Black/Light]

... looks like Zelda still has her OoT look. Guess that means Sheik is in, right? I mean, after all, the appearance argument works both ways...

Thats actually a simple recoloring of Zelda. Pink top and blond hair. . . "OMGOMG! OoT!!!" it's the pink color of Zelda. The one behind her is the "dark" Zelda with all black cloths and white hair. . . seems like changing hair color aint a big deal for her

And I agree with Iris. Theres much more reason to hide Zelda if something is waayy different from Melee. If she is exactly like Melee Zelda than there would be no need to make her the only vet without a 2nd update (who happens to be the first non-vid vet to be confirmed).

 

[shinhed-echi]

I don't think it has to do with her TP Look... otherwise we should look at the Color Schemes update where Melee Zelda's at.

I think it's a matter of unimportance.. or something... Now that Twilight Princess showed Zelda with new moves, chances are they'll take one of those moves to replace Sheik transformation.


Just a theory though. I'm not for nor against Sheik.

 

[Iris]

I agree completely.

After OoT, they really didn't have many options, and Sheik was a decent choice since the game was relevant at the time. Now, with a whole new available moveset from TP, it makes sense they'd use at least one new move instead of a gimmick using an insignificant alter-ego. It's really a waste of her potential if they don't.

 

[luckycharmstrixme12]

Well my theory is this:
Zelda wasnt playable at for E for All
I think that is maybe because they didnt want to give away yet that she could still be sheik.

Well
I only thought of this theory because
They had Castle Siege in the E3 06 video.
So my guess is that they already had Ike as a playable character or were planning on using him
Except they didn't confirm him until August.
I was just thinking maybe he wanted to update other characters before him
So I thought that maybe he wanted to update other things before Sheik
But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[retro gamer 6]

sheik has to come back. shes pretty awesome. i don't main her, but i use her on occasion and am pretty good with her. i'd be disappointed if she didn't return(along with ganondorf)

 

[blueriku]

I don't care if you didn't want this post to get lost in all the other posts in the other Zelda/Sheik threads; it still didn't deserve it's own thread. Especially since the point you bring up has been brought up before.

I've gotten sick of explaining in detail why that's not a good reason for Sheik to be back as Zelda's down B, so I'll try and summarize it.

We've only seen two of Zelda's special moves. We've seen her teleport in a cutscene, which everyone assumes is Farore's Wind, and we've seen her use a fire-based attack that seems to work just like Din's Fire did in Melee. That does not mean that they are considered the same moves. We do not know that Din's Fire is called Din's Fire anymore. Same goes for Farore's Wind. Her new move's could be "Zelda's Fire" and "Teleport", for all we know. The only thing we really know about Zelda as a character is that she's magically-inclined. Always. So it makes sense for her to at least have some generic magic attacks. However, it does not make sense for her to transform into a character that she has no direct connection with.

The Zelda from Twilight Princes transforming into Sheik makes just as much sense as Mario transforming into Sheik. Could Sakurai still do it? Sure. But it would not make any sense. I don't care what anyone says—there is SOME level of sense to a moveset based on a character's. . . well, character. That's what keeps Mario from turning into Sheik.

There's no reason to think that Sheik is a shoe-in for Zelda's down B. Even if she's in the game, she could be a separate character or even an AT for all we know.

I want to point out some things, first off why does it not make sense for Zelda to transform to sheik, because she is form twilight princess? well why would sakurai bother with a color scheme of OOT Zelda for TP zelda? ill tell you why, In more deeper of the story in TP you will learn that links clothes are in fact, the same clothes the hero wore in OOT. now what does that mean? it means that the intended design of link is a revised design of OOT link that they incorporated in the story. in twilight you will learn this from the first light spirit when you get the heroes clothes. now in actuality in development aonuma had the designs based on OOT if they had the technology back then oot would look at like tp.

Hyrule is a weathered and decaying hyrule of that from OOT if you go around on the world map you will see a lot of land marks that OOT had i major land mark being the lake hylia tree. most of this is obviously tp being decades after child links time line. no what my point its simple tp has a lot of tie-ins to OOT (i.e the heroes clothes for link, land marks ect) tp zelda design is based off of OOT zelda just more subdued in color and more mature (more sarrowful if you will) in design. Now in brawl that what sakurai look at Tp Zelda...a design he said so himself on the site on Zelda's page so its not far off that sheik can be Zelda's down it can make sense. and continuity in brawl is not a big deal and is only carried to a extent.

 

[Circus]

Oh my, you dug up a post from me that I hardly even remember posting, haha.

I want to point out some things, first off why does it not make sense for Zelda to transform to sheik, because she is form twilight princess? well why would sakurai bother with a color scheme of OOT Zelda for TP zelda?

To appease the crazy fans that prefer her blonde? She may look more like OoT Zelda with the blonde hair, but it doesn't change what she actually is. She's TP Zelda with a dye-job. The TP look has been chosen as her default look in Brawl. Her "true" look, if you will. I can see where you make the OoT argument, especially since the "OoT Zelda" is quite well represented with the alternate color, but I still think that TP Zelda as Zelda's default costume means something. Where as OoT Zelda is of the same imporance as Goth Zelda (white hair, black dress).

ill tell you why, In more deeper of the story in TP you will learn that links clothes are in fact, the same clothes the hero wore in OOT. now what does that mean? it means that the intended design of link is a revised design of OOT link that they incorporated in the story. in twilight you will learn this from the first light spirit when you get the heroes clothes.

I haven't beaten TP just yet, but have gotten past this part. Apparently I forgot that, but it does sound familiar now that you mention it. Still, it doesn't really change my view. TP Link still isn't OoT Link, despite their tunic sharing. TP Zelda still isn't OoT Zelda, despite their commonalities in fashion sense.

now in actuality in development aonuma had the designs based on OOT if they had the technology back then oot would look at like tp.

What you're essentially proving is that all the Links and Zeldas, more or less, dress the same. Each Link always wears that green tunic. I get that. Yet his moveset in SSB was still updated to identify him as no one other than TP Link. Only TP Link used the Gale Boomerang. Only TP Link used bombs that had the weird foil on them. Does his Dark Link costume change that? I wouldn't say so.

Hyrule is a weathered and decaying hyrule of that from OOT if you go around on the world map you will see a lot of land marks that OOT had i major land mark being the lake hylia tree. most of this is obviously tp being decades after child links time line. no what my point its simple tp has a lot of tie-ins to OOT (i.e the heroes clothes for link, land marks ect)

Well yes, I'm not arguing that Twilight Princess is necessarily occuring in a different Hyrule than the one that we saw in Ocarina of Time (though the rearranging of the villages and such may support such a theory). That still proves nothing. If anything, that just means that this Link lives in the same place the old Link lived. Likewise, Zelda lives in the same place her ancestor did. Doesn't make them the same person, nor does it give them the same abilities. Sheik was born out of necessity for OoT Zelda to hide away from Ganonforf, correct? TP Zelda had no such need. Dressing the same and living in Hyrule does not give her the same need for a disguise that her ancestor had.

Besides, the "landmarks" are all arguably just the creators of the game providing nostalgia. A throw back to OoT. I didn't see Kokiri Village in TP, did you?

tp zelda design is based off of OOT zelda just more subdued in color and more mature (more sarrowful if you will) in design. Now in brawl that what sakurai look at Tp Zelda...a design he said so himself on the site on Zelda's page so its not far off that sheik can be Zelda's down it can make sense. and continuity in brawl is not a big deal and is only carried to a extent.

I'm aware that a Sheik transformation is still very much a possibility. However, I disagree that it would make sense. You're right, Smash does only adhere to continuity to a degree; liberties are taken. But this Sheik transformation is still a liberty that I would find too severe to be taken. They could do it; I just don't want them to.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

I always thought Zelda in Brawl was just a representation of every Zelda from every game. That's why she didn't have her Rapier.

I don't know why Sheik wouldn't return, she deserves to be in. And she'll, predictably, arrive beaten with the Nerf-Bat.

So yeah, I have no reason to go against the inclusion of Sheik.

 

[Weed]

I dont mind her returning, she was my favourite character in OoT.

Mysterious, musical, trans-gender ninja! -EP1C.

 

[Circus]

I always thought Zelda in Brawl was just a representation of every Zelda from every game. That's why she didn't have her Rapier.

I don't know why Sheik wouldn't return, she deserves to be in. And she'll, predictably, arrive beaten with the Nerf-Bat.

So yeah, I have no reason to go against the inclusion of Sheik.

I wouldn't mind if Zelda were a representation of all Zelda's, but she is undeniably modeled after TP Zelda. I don't understand why they'd make that so clear (you know, Sakurai stating it) if they were focused on making Zelda an amalgam of all Zeldas, especially since Link is clearly not an amalgam of all Links.

Most Zeldas are blonde (correct me if I'm wrong). If Zelda were to represent all Zeldas, wouldn't it make sense for her default costume to be blonde?

Also, having Sheik a part of Zelda's moveset doesn't help make Zelda a hodgepodge of all of the other Zeldas because that gives OoT FAR too much weight. If Zelda were to get a few moves inspired by each of the Zelda games (I don't know what they would be), then it seems like favoritism to give OoT a whole character's worth of moves.

If anything, in order to represent all Zelda's, Zelda has even more of a reason to ditch the transformation bit. It's not an accurate representation of what all Zeldas are.

 

[Aerialist]

To be honest Sheik has a good chance of returning. There are two reasons why Sheik (and any other interesting news) has yet to be confirmed. One, Sakurai is stalling, because perhaps he didn't plan on the extra two months before release (I severely doubt this, I think they've known about the delay for months) two, perhaps he knows it would be best to leave some things to be found out. maybe Sheik will never be in the profile, I have a feeling that will happen with a lot of the characters (including the final third party character).

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I wouldn't mind if Zelda were a representation of all Zelda's, but she is undeniably modeled after TP Zelda. I don't understand why they'd make that so clear (you know, Sakurai stating it) if they were focused on making Zelda an amalgam of all Zeldas, especially since Link is clearly not an amalgam of all Links.

Most Zeldas are blonde (correct me if I'm wrong). If Zelda were to represent all Zeldas, wouldn't it make sense for her default costume to be blonde?

Also, having Sheik a part of Zelda's moveset doesn't help make Zelda a hodgepodge of all of the other Zeldas because that gives OoT FAR too much weight. If Zelda were to get a few moves inspired by each of the Zelda games (I don't know what they would be), then it seems like favoritism to give OoT a whole character's worth of moves.

If anything, in order to represent all Zelda's, Zelda has even more of a reason to ditch the transformation bit. It's not an accurate representation of what all Zelda's are.

Personally I think it's just an aesthetic change, since TP Zelda is basically OoT Zelda but with Brown hair and a similar, but more detailed garment.

I think all the Smash characters in the game are the same characters from each...therefore, it's NOT OoT or TP Zelda, but SMASH Zelda...as in a seperate character from both.

 

[blayde_axel]

ore of a reason to ditch the transformation bit. It's not an accurate representation of what all Zeldas are.

Honestly, Zelda doesn't have THAT much going for her. I mean, hell, all of her special moves are Link's magic moves.

And the Zeldas in the early LoZ games were the "Damsel in Distress" types that did nothing the entire game besides say "You have rescued me!". So you can't use any moves from there... unless her new Down B is "Go to Sleep for the Entire Game." Come up to OoT when she actually somewhat did something.

So really, the only games they can pull stuff from is OoT, TP, and the Wind Waker series, two of those features a transformation of some sort: Shiek for OoT, and Tetra for Wind Waker.

 

[Circus]

Personally I think it's just an aesthetic change, since TP Zelda is basically OoT Zelda but with Brown hair and a similar, but more detailed garment.

I think all the Smash characters in the game are the same characters from each...therefore, it's NOT OoT or TP Zelda, but SMASH Zelda...as in a seperate character from both.

That's possible. I can see where you're coming from. But if that's the case, I have to wonder why Link is so decidedly TP specific. If Link is SMASH Link, why was it necessary to give him items that are so clearly ripped from Twilight Princess? Why would Sakurai go out of his way to define Link with Twilight Princess items?

I only bring up Link because he and Zelda are in the same boat. If Link is TP Link, and not Smash Link (as I suspect is the case), then I don't see why Zelda would be any different.

Honestly, Zelda doesn't have THAT much going for her. I mean, hell, all of her special moves are Link's magic moves.

And the Zeldas in the early LoZ games were the "Damsel in Distress" types that did nothing the entire game besides say "You have rescued me!". So you can't use any moves from there... unless her new Down B is "Go to Sleep for the Entire Game." Come up to OoT when she actually somewhat did something.

So really, the only games they can pull stuff from is OoT, TP, and the Wind Waker series, two of those features a transformation of some sort: Shiek for OoT, and Tetra for Wind Waker.

Ocarina of Time would still be getting an unfair amount of representation though, wouldn't you say? Unless they were planning on including a Tetra transformation AND a rapier (based on OoT, TP and WW being the only games to pull from, as you suggested) in addition to the Sheik transformation, it still seems like OoT would be getting special treatment that it doesn't deserve.

 

[blayde_axel]

@Circus. Sorry, didn't feel like quoting. lol.

It would seem like OoT is being over-repped, but yeah... there's not much to pull from. lol. Can't really explain it better. All of her B moves (cept for Down B so far) are from OoT, her model's from TP... and well... that seems about it. Seems ok to me. But they could turn her into a "Pokemon Trainer" in a sense... but Zelda fans would be PISSED, I'm guessing.

As for her staying in the past rather than updating her like Link... well... who knows? WE cannot fathom Sakurai's or the Brawl Teams minds. lol.

But yeah... Shiek is unimportant these days, though. We've moved on from OoT. But that game still holds a place as "The best game ever" and Nintendo (more specifically, Sora) knows it. And it would seem like they'd keep Shiek just for that reason.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

I just wish she had her sword..

 

[blayde_axel]

Random Question, Pluvia. Do you know if she's a lefty or righty? I never remember.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Random Question, Pluvia. Do you know if she's a lefty or righty? I never remember.

Righty. Opposite of Link.

 

[hungrybum]

There is no proof that the Zelda in TP CANT transform into Sheik. Even if she can't, the inclusion of Sheik in Brawl would just be a nod to the OoT's Zelda. Why should they remove Sheik from the game just so people can say it's the Zelda from TP? Why limit characters just for nostalgia?
.

Impa teached OoT Zelda how to be Sheik, Impa is not in TP so Sheik is not in TP

 

[error_alt_delete]

@Circus. Sorry, didn't feel like quoting. lol.

It would seem like OoT is being over-repped, but yeah... there's not much to pull from. lol. Can't really explain it better. All of her B moves (cept for Down B so far) are from OoT, her model's from TP... and well... that seems about it. Seems ok to me. But they could turn her into a "Pokemon Trainer" in a sense... but Zelda fans would be PISSED, I'm guessing.

As for her staying in the past rather than updating her like Link... well... who knows? WE cannot fathom Sakurai's or the Brawl Teams minds. lol.

But yeah... Shiek is unimportant these days, though. We've moved on from OoT. But that game still holds a place as "The best game ever" and Nintendo (more specifically, Sora) knows it. And it would seem like they'd keep Shiek just for that reason.

I think I remember hearing mario galaxy took that title.(give me some time to check).
but ya I think that we are moving away from Oot to TP now. especialy with all the stuff that was changed for link I think we might get the same for zelda.

 

[Wyvern]

That's possible. I can see where you're coming from. But if that's the case, I have to wonder why Link is so decidedly TP specific. If Link is SMASH Link, why was it necessary to give him items that are so clearly ripped from Twilight Princess? Why would Sakurai go out of his way to define Link with Twilight Princess items?

I only bring up Link because he and Zelda are in the same boat. If Link is TP Link, and not Smash Link (as I suspect is the case), then I don't see why Zelda would be any different.

Link is the Smash amalgamation of Link. He is graphically based on Twilight Princess because Twilight Princess contains the most technologically advanced graphics to pull models from. It doesn't put any special restrictions on his abilities. Some of his items also got this graphical upgrade to make them fit optimally with the Link model, but they're all functionally identical to what they were before and therefore common across all Links (with the partial exception of the Gale Boomerang).

Look back to Smash 64 for a better example. Link there was obviously visually based on the adult Link from Ocarina of time, right? But he had a boomerang. OoT Link couldn't use the boomerang, only his younger incarnation could. But he had a boomerang anyway, because the boomerang is a staple for most of the Links across the entire series.

By the same token, in Smash 64, Mario looked like he did in Super Mario 64, but in that game, he never shot fireballs or jumped with his fist over his head. He still hadn't done those things in any 3-D game as of Melee, nor had he used the cape recently. Granted, canonically, there's only one Mario that's the same in every game in the series, but why should Link and Zelda get all these special restrictions just because their series is set up differently? Link as a general character gets the same kind of recognition Mario does as an indivudual.

Basically: all characters get their moves based on all the games they've been in, not just the one they're most graphically based on. And it would be unfair for Link and Zelda to be only allowed to take abilities from one game when the Legend of Zelda series is so extensive just because of how the story works. They're viewed as representatives from the SERIES, not representatives from Ocarina of Time, or Twilight Princess.

Ocarina of Time would still be getting an unfair amount of representation though, wouldn't you say? Unless they were planning on including a Tetra transformation AND a rapier (based on OoT, TP and WW being the only games to pull from, as you suggested) in addition to the Sheik transformation, it still seems like OoT would be getting special treatment that it doesn't deserve.

This is the only real argument against Sheik's inclusion. If Zelda is the general representation of Zelda, and Sheik only appeared in one incarnation of Zelda, then it seems to follow that Sheik should not be part of Smash Zelda for the same reason that Link wouldn't be expected to use the Zora Mask or Ball and Chain. There are, however, two problems with this.

1) ZELDA NEVER DOES ANYTHING. In the first four games, Zelda spends 100% of her time kidnapped, asleep, hiding in a church, or non-existant (Link's Awakening). There is literally NOTHING in any of these games that could have hypothetically contributed to a Smash Bros. moveset. Ocarina of Time was the first time that Zelda actually went out and accomplished things on her own, and most of that was under the Sheik persona. It was also the first time (I think) that she was shown as being capable of independent spellcasting (though never with any combat spells). So, when Sakurai decided to put Zelda in Melee, he had no choice but to base her heavily on her Ocarina of Time appearance...it was the only appearance in which she actually was theoretically capable of combat, due to Sheik's apparent agility (several ninja-esque moves and the whole rescuing Ruto from the freezing Zora Domain story) and Zelda's magical aptitude (which gives an excuse for inventing comat spells).

Zelda's combat potential has changed very, very little since then. In Twilight Princess, she owns a sword and thus is presumably proficient with it, but we never see her actually swordfighting. All she really does is shoot Light Arrows plus a couple of generic attacks when she's possessed by Ganon (and it's questionable how much of that power is hers and how much is his). Sure, Sakurai could have scrapped the Melee character and created an entirely new sword-wielding Zelda using moves from that boss fight, but how is a character with only TP moves any less asinine than a character with only OoT moves? The magic-based moveset at least has the excuse that Zelda usually either holds the Triforce of Wisdom or is descended from someone magical. Besides, there's a lot more room in the roster for a mage than there is for a sword-and-bow fighter.

2) Smash is not a Zelda game. Smash is a fighting game in its own right. Sheik as a character and unrestricted shapeshifting as a mechanic were both unique and added to the gameplay. It would be stupid to take unique and popular elements out of the series due to minor storyline disagreements. For a developer, this reason alone is going to trump anything else you can come up with. Creating Smash as a fighting game is a higher priority than creating Smash as meticulously detailed Zelda fanservice.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Maybe her new Down B could involve her changing movesets again.

Except not Zelda >> Sheik, but Zelda >> Rapier Zelda? (something along the lines of Marth, only Zelda floaty).

That's just a guess, and I doubt that'll be happening.

 

[Circus]

Link is the Smash amalgamation of Link. He is graphically based on Twilight Princess because Twilight Princess contains the most technologically advanced graphics to pull models from. It doesn't put any special restrictions on his abilities. Some of his items also got this graphical upgrade to make them fit optimally with the Link model, but they're all functionally identical to what they were before and therefore common across all Links (with the partial exception of the Gale Boomerang).

I see your point. It would certainly be much more conclusive if the Link in Brawl had, say, The Dominion Rod. All of the attacks he has are, more or less, just TP updates of everything he had before. But I don't think that really changes the fact that the Link we see in Brawl is decidedly TP specific. Why put that weird foil on the bombs? It serves absolutely no purpose other than explicitly stating that the bombs are from TP. Why make the boomerang the Gale Boomerang instead of just making the old boomerang more detailed and giving it that slight "whirlwind" feature? It would be a more general representation of all Links, wouldn't it? And what about the Clawshot? That could've easily been left as the hookshot and worked in exactly the same way. If Link is supposed to be the embodiment of all Links, I still can't help but wonder why the creators were SO set on making sure his entire aesthetic was TP based.

I understand your point with his model. It's just the most graphically updated version; I accept that. But his items are all undoubtedly taken from Twilight Princess. You say that the items got updated graphically to fit the Link model. If that's true, and the creators are worried about Link's moveset "fitting" his new incarnation, then doesn't that kind of prove my point? Sheik would not "fit" this Zelda.

Look back to Smash 64 for a better example. Link there was obviously visually based on the adult Link from Ocarina of time, right? But he had a boomerang. OoT Link couldn't use the boomerang, only his younger incarnation could. But he had a boomerang anyway, because the boomerang is a staple for most of the Links across the entire series.

This is hairy business for me. Personally, I still dislike the fact that Link used the boomerang, for that very reason. However, I can tolerate it, because even though the game only let Link use the boomerang as a kid, that boomerang still BELONGED to that Link. Link using a boomerang from his childhood is not nearly the same as some other guy named Link using an item he's never seen before in his life.

The adult Link from OoT was not able to use his boomerang simply because the game would not let you. But that adult Link still OWNED that boomerang, therefor the only thing holding him back from using it was the game literally being programmed not to allow it. It's not so far fetched that that Link would still physically be able to reach back into that black hole under his shield where he keeps all those items and pull out a boomerang that belongs to him.

By the same token, in Smash 64, Mario looked like he did in Super Mario 64, but in that game, he never shot fireballs or jumped with his fist over his head. He still hadn't done those things in any 3-D game as of Melee, nor had he used the cape recently. Granted, canonically, there's only one Mario that's the same in every game in the series, but why should Link and Zelda get all these special restrictions just because their series is set up differently? Link as a general character gets the same kind of recognition Mario does as an indivudual.

For the sake of continuity. That doesn't mean that Sakurai and his gang care about it as much as I do, but that's the reason that I, personally, want that restriction. My whole argument against Sheik has always been about it bothering me, not whether it's really likely or whether the creators care or not. The reason I ever even join the discussion in these thousands of Sheik threads is to explain why it's reasonable for a Zelda fan to want continuity to have a voice, not that the voice is always heard and is thereby decreasing Sheik's chances.

Basically: all characters get their moves based on all the games they've been in, not just the one they're most graphically based on. And it would be unfair for Link and Zelda to be only allowed to take abilities from one game when the Legend of Zelda series is so extensive just because of how the story works. They're viewed as representatives from the SERIES, not representatives from Ocarina of Time, or Twilight Princess.

And, as you yourself said, Zelda has nothing to base a moveset off of from most of the games she's been in. I'd say Twilight Princess is probably the game where she shows the most potential, actually. At least there is the implication that she's proficient with a rapier there. In OoT, all we see her do is raise bars and ensnare Ganon with light magic. Even as Sheik, we don't actually see her DO anything, so why should Sheik count for anything more than all the other Zeldas that didn't show any moveset potential? If Sheik was made entirely from scratch, then why can't all those past Zelda moves be made from scratch? No matter how you slice it, including Sheik is not conducive to creating an accurate, fair representation of all Zeldas.

This is the only real argument against Sheik's inclusion. If Zelda is the general representation of Zelda, and Sheik only appeared in one incarnation of Zelda, then it seems to follow that Sheik should not be part of Smash Zelda for the same reason that Link wouldn't be expected to use the Zora Mask or Ball and Chain. There are, however, two problems with this.

1) ZELDA NEVER DOES ANYTHING. In the first four games, Zelda spends 100% of her time kidnapped, asleep, hiding in a church, or non-existant (Link's Awakening). There is literally NOTHING in any of these games that could have hypothetically contributed to a Smash Bros. moveset.

Like I said above, as Sheik, Zelda, once again, did nothing. Given that Zelda's design is from TP, and that TP looks to be the game that shows Zelda actually DOING the most, it doesn't seem so unreasonable to just make her TP Zelda all around. If she's going to favor one installment over any other, it would make sense for that installment to be TP, not OoT or any of the other games since it's most recent, is the game her model was ripped from, and is the game that showed off the most of her potential.

Ocarina of Time was the first time that Zelda actually went out and accomplished things on her own, and most of that was under the Sheik persona.

It's been a minute since I've played OoT so you may need to refresh my memory, but what exactly are you referring to by saying that most of what Zelda accomplished in OoT was under the Sheik persona? All I recall her doing is teaching Link songs and making flowery speeches.

It was also the first time (I think) that she was shown as being capable of independent spellcasting (though never with any combat spells). So, when Sakurai decided to put Zelda in Melee, he had no choice but to base her heavily on her Ocarina of Time appearance...it was the only appearance in which she actually was theoretically capable of combat, due to Sheik's apparent agility (several ninja-esque moves and the whole rescuing Ruto from the freezing Zora Domain story) and Zelda's magical aptitude (which gives an excuse for inventing comat spells).

And since Twilight Princess has shown even more abilities that Zelda is capable, I would question Sakurai's judgment if he were to once again resort to the limitations he was forced to work with when creating Melee Zelda. Using all those things he made up out of the blue for Sheik seems odd since including something like, say, light arrows in place of that would be so much more in character (if I'm not mistaken, several Zeldas have used light arrows).

And to avoid the "throwing out Sheik's moveset is silly" argument, I'd like to say that I'd be totally tolerant of Sheik becoming her own separate character.

Zelda's combat potential has changed very, very little since then. In Twilight Princess, she owns a sword and thus is presumably proficient with it, but we never see her actually swordfighting.

In Ocarina of Time, we see her as Sheik and is presumed to have some kind of ninja skill, though we never see her actually performing any such skills. I don't see why using Sheik should be any more fathomable than using a rapier.

All she really does is shoot Light Arrows plus a couple of generic attacks when she's possessed by Ganon (and it's questionable how much of that power is hers and how much is his).

Which is still more than she did in OoT, whether she was in her Sheik disguise or not. Though I do agree that the powers she showed off while under Ganondorf's control should probably be avoided, if possible.

Sure, Sakurai could have scrapped the Melee character and created an entirely new sword-wielding Zelda using moves from that boss fight, but how is a character with only TP moves any less asinine than a character with only OoT moves?

For one, it's less asinine purely because the Zelda we see in Brawl is Twilight Princess Zelda if she's any one particular Zelda at all. Second, I don't suggest she have PURELY TP based attacks. I would prefer to see her with light arrows (which were seen in TP, but were not exclusive to it) and some generic light magic. Judging from what we've seen of Zelda, I doubt that's what we're getting, but that would be my ideal Zelda.

The magic-based moveset at least has the excuse that Zelda usually either holds the Triforce of Wisdom or is descended from someone magical. Besides, there's a lot more room in the roster for a mage than there is for a sword-and-bow fighter.

Agreed. The one constant for each Zelda is that she is magically inclined, therefor seeing her use any type of magic makes perfect sense to me, regardless of her design.

2) Smash is not a Zelda game. Smash is a fighting game in its own right. Sheik as a character and unrestricted shapeshifting as a mechanic were both unique and added to the gameplay.

The transformation mechanic WAS unique. It's not now. PT's "switch out" ability is basically exactly what made the Zelda/Sheik transformation so cool and different. Since PT has it, Zelda turning into Sheik no longer has that unique element.

It would be stupid to take unique and popular elements out of the series due to minor storyline disagreements.

I completely disagree. One of the biggest draws to the Smash games for me is using the characters I love. And one of the things that makes the characters I love worth using is the fact that they DO the things that are actually consistent with their character. For me, Zelda would become compromised if either of the following were to happen:

1. Zelda is not accurately represented as an amalgam of all Zeldas, which Sheik would get in the way of.
2. Zelda is not accurately represented as her Twilight Princess incarnation due to her design, which Sheik would REALLY get in the way of.

For a developer, this reason alone is going to trump anything else you can come up with.

Maybe. I don't think you know that any more than I do. But I do see that as an unfortunate possibility.

Creating Smash as a fighting game is a higher priority than creating Smash as meticulously detailed Zelda fanservice.

I agree. I just don't see why one need compromise the other. I don't see how at least separating Sheik from Zelda in any way lessens Smash as a fighting game. The game can be just as fantastic while still keeping continuity and "fan service" in mind.

EDIT: I reread this post. It may be the longest one I've ever written. Kudos to anyone who can even finish it. >___>

 

[TengenToppaDrill]

He/ She/it/potatoe will most likely be added as a seperate character.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

He/ She/it/potatoe will most likely be added as a seperate character.

Not "Most likely"...

Maybe, but definetly not most likely

 

[error_alt_delete]

He/ She/it/potatoe will most likely be added as a seperate character.

im going to have to give that a no.
if people are so against the idea of getting link as a wolf, I think they would be even more so for shiek.
I dont think its likely we will get shiek as a seperate character*they are the same person*(I think it would be very unlikely).

Im going to go with shiek as an unlikely character at this point till I get more evidense we arnt focusing alot on TP.

 

[blueriku]

to nothing rhymes with circus i do agree where your coming from on your opinions of Zelda, when it all comes down to it i suppose its just a different opinion and a different way of looking at it. i guess most of this is up in the air until we get updated and speaking of that its getting annoying that sakurai is beating around the bush and not updating any characters

 

[raphtmarqui]

I think all the Smash characters in the game are the same characters from each...therefore, it's NOT OoT or TP Zelda, but SMASH Zelda...as in a seperate character from both.

This is pretty much the bottom line.

 

[Black/Light]

I, once again, agree alot with nothing rhymes with circus.

But I will whole heartedly (sp) say that I think Sheik is simply gone and aint some saperate character. Much like with Ness. . . yea, very much like with Ness.

Ness- Popular character from the EB series thats been in 2 past smash games. But because he is no longer relavent to his series he has been given the boot and replaced by Lucas.

Ness actually had more going for him than Sheik in such respects. . .

What I think Zelda's Bv will be. . . either Light Arrows along with some other B moves being different than Melee (Im guessing her B^ stayed the same but either one of her other seen-and-confirmed B moves could have been changed to a smash) or she whips out a sword and in doing so she changes to a sword move-set with the use of light arrows and newer magical attacks.

IMO Zelda becoming Sheik NOW is as logical as Link becoming Oni Link (that actally makes abit more sense seeing as TP comes after MM which is when the timeline spilt. OoT isn't even in the time line of TP) or Zelda transforming into a TP looking Tetra (if she reps ALL Zeldas than that would at least make some small amount of sense to me. Tetra has been in more LoZ games and even if she looks TP she would still be from the WW/ PHG games so Zelda would have moves from OoT, Tp's style of model and a WW/PHG transformation. . . still makes lil sense tho.)



But no matter what I think something has changed for Zelda. Makes no sense to go these long without updating her moves on the dojo if she is exactly the same as she was in melee. I have a strong feeling that Sheik is gone and in her place is either Light arrows or some other form of Zelda.

 

[vesperview]

Link is the Smash amalgamation of Link. He is graphically based on Twilight Princess because Twilight Princess contains the most technologically advanced graphics to pull models from. It doesn't put any special restrictions on his abilities. Some of his items also got this graphical upgrade to make them fit optimally with the Link model, but they're all functionally identical to what they were before and therefore common across all Links (with the partial exception of the Gale Boomerang).

It's completely stated in Link's Special Moves and character profile update that he is based off Twilight Princess entirely, plus it is quite obvious, maybe Melee Link wasn't completely faithful to his OoT incarnation but this one is completely faithful to his TP incarnation so please, stop saying he represents all the Links in the series, cause he clearly doesn't, Melee Link represents OoT despite how incoherent his moves may be and Brawl Link clearly represents Twilight Princess, Zelda clearly is representing TP and so will Ganondorf, not to mention the Bridge of Eldin stage, therefore Sheik's chances are slim to none.

 

[Circus]

to nothing rhymes with circus i do agree where your coming from on your opinions of Zelda, when it all comes down to it i suppose its just a different opinion and a different way of looking at it. i guess most of this is up in the air until we get updated and speaking of that its getting annoying that sakurai is beating around the bush and not updating any characters

That's pretty much the end-all, be-all of this whole discussion. People have different ideas of what will happen with Sheik and what should happen with Sheik. And as far as I can tell, nothing seems to definitively point one way or the other (I personally agree that the lack of an update for Zelda implies change, but I can also see why Sakurai might just want to draw out the suspense for Sheik fans. Since he's a loon like that).

So all things considered, it is indeed up in the air, as you said. And no matter what, someone is going to be letdown.

 

[RustyCage]

Not to necro, but I'm amazed that there haven't been any 'Sheik for SSBB' sig add-ons! I'd wear one of those with pride! This thread definitely needs more in the way of support, rather than just housing arguments.

 

[JPW]

Why can't Sheik be her own character this time? Why does she have to be a form of Zelda?

The popularity is there, and i'm pretty sure both can do well with a new Down+B move.

TP SPOILER!

Zelda does fight in TP. And in the battle with Link there is actually a swoop she does with her blade. That can be a Down+B right there.

Zelda: TP and Sheik: OOT just don't make sense to me.

 

[RustyCage]

Why can't Sheik be her own character this time? Why does she have to be a form of Zelda?

The popularity is there, and i'm pretty sure both can do well with a new Down+B move.

TP SPOILER!

Zelda does fight in TP. And in the battle with Link there is actually a swoop she does with her blade. That can be a Down+B right there.

Zelda: TP and Sheik: OOT just don't make sense to me.

Which would be why Aonuma-san said that the TP artists are submitting a Sheik design for Sakurai to use for Brawl.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Why can't Sheik be her own character this time? Why does she have to be a form of Zelda?

The popularity is there, and i'm pretty sure both can do well with a new Down+B move.

TP SPOILER!

Zelda does fight in TP. And in the battle with Link there is actually a swoop she does with her blade. That can be a Down+B right there.

Zelda: TP and Sheik: OOT just don't make sense to me.

Of course, all that assumes that Sakurai doesn't consider the Brawl Zelda representative of all Zeldas. And what has occured previously with Link's moveset seems to strongly indicated that for such characters, the Brawl incarnation represents the named character in the entire franchise.


If, for the puporses of Brawl they're all one character, then what becomes the point of seperating Zelda and Sheik?

 

[Storm Eagle]

Oh Sakurai, please make Sheik an Assist Trophy. Zelda's curse from melee has to be vanished!