Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[General_Zod]

=d

nice post Zod :D
i think i agree with everything you said xD
and its good to have it wrote down somewhere... it makes you remember it in a match a bit more...
eventhough i dont recommend WD back and then grab...
they might overshoot your postion because of their momentum and hit you with a knee or dair or w/e they like to do (nair^^)

Thanks man. =D
The WD back it can be useful if you're fast enough. I usually grab them when they try to stomp me. I do 2 wd backwards and grab them and let the tech chase begin. -insert evil laugh here-.
But as I stated before, analizing the falcon player first is half the battle.. :D

Sheik FTW! :D

 

[Teczer0]

Oh and don't dash attack a whole bunch vs CF.

I tried it... and got d-aired to knee like 029309238092480329430984 stocks in a row T_T

 

[General_Zod]

Another tip:
I wouldn't recomend to Crouch Cancel against CF. Unless you wanna get stomped to death -.-". The only thing rather safe to cc is the raptor something attack(side B) on really low percentages. As for the downsmash, don't spam it too much, because even though you hit them, they will stomp/knee you afterwards because of its delay. I will say use it wisely, like when you know he's gonna spot dodge(although this happens rarely cause Cf spot dodge sucks) you can use it. And after jabbing them it is also safe. Nevertheless, don't spam it or you'll get youself owned pretty bad -.-"

 

[SPAWN]

Drephen's advice helped soooo much. Everyone should read Drephen's post on the spacies. Thanks for doing this Teczero.

 

[Teczer0]

Spawn yea lol drephen's advice was really good LOL.

>_> I'm glad people are using the thread.

People should use it more >_> sheiks don't win ALL the time there has to be a question somewhere.... >_>.

I'll throw one. How would you edgeguard a CF or ganondorf that hugs the stage while they recover?

 

[brickman]

Personally this is what I have found out in the match up against CF.

First of all grab, tech chase, regrab. Captain Falcon's tech get up is rather slow and a jump canceled grab will get him almost every time as long as you are competent and consistent. This should do the trick for about 4-5 grabs. Now that you have a fair amount of damage on him say (55-65%) you should be working on getting him off the stage.

Don't let him regroup on the stage with endless dash dancing and getting his spacing. Interrupt it with needles. If he does by chance get the spacing off whip out the neutral air. It should bite through most things he can throw out. If you are playing smart you wont have to worry about this. Pressure him and keep him off the stage.

Everyone has their own views on how to best keep CF off from getting back. Some people say that it is easy other say it is difficult. I think it is entirely situation based. You should approach the get back of the CF on a situation by situation basis. Some situations can be solved with interrupting his down b get back with a needle and forcing him to use his up b. This is easy to guard against and most cases he is usually far out enough where you can just edge hog. Other approaches will require some judgment. CF may recover above the stage, and that is where the real thinking is required. Slapping will just result in him jumping higher and higher. Instead, wait for him to land (watch his DI) and grab and re grab him. You will build up more damage in a much more controlled fashion.

This match can be completely controlled if you play it right. Don't give CF room to think. Needle him when he dances, neutral air him when he approaches. When you have the opening grab him. Don't stop grabbing him until you can knock him off the stage. Once he is off make sure you can rack up damage and control his movements as best as possible. Different pros have different approaches to keeping CF off the stage. Some go out and hit him while others are concerned with dealing with him on the stage. Take your style and deal with him how ever way you feel most comfortable.

Sheik has numerous moves with which he can dominate CF, needles, neutral air, down smash, and grabs will freeze up the motion and movements of CF. By breaking up the flow of his game and controlling the pace of the match up you will be able to handle this match up fairly competently.

(sorry, I just saw some people posting on CF, sorry if I didn't address the heart of the issue, just some input)

 

[Teczer0]

Hmm thats pretty useful brickman >_> awesome stuff.

Thanks >_>

 

[Zane Fleia]

Awesome post, Brickman. I have trouble with the matchup, as I said before, and I definitely think I'll do better my next game against a Falcon. ^_^

As for when the Falcon hugs the stage to get up, if you Dsmash right at the edge, the hitbox ends up just a little below it as well. It forces them away pretty nicely, and they can't try to hug the stage to recover again for their next attempt at least. Which usually means easy neddle or ledgehopped Bair or whatever you want to follow it with.

 

[brickman]

You need to accept the possibility of a edge tech jump into an up b. This results in damage and him getting back to the stage. The people I play with tend to be pretty phenomenal at this so I have backed away from the down smash edge guard. I like to go for a situation in which the outcome in more easy to control. Thats my only problem with that guard style.

 

[Zane Fleia]

Yeah, I thought about that one. But if you do it right, they'll Up+B over you instead of into you, probably, which leads into a slap.

In theory, not practice, of course. XD

 

[brickman]

haha. they can always (intentionally or not) jump. If they don't do the jump and instantly up-b you do not have time to react to the up-b as CF cries "YES".

Yea, techs mess up that defense some times, but you can throw it in there every once in a while when they are not expecting it and maybe you will catch them for not teching.

Mind games always win out it seems.

 

[Teczer0]

What about sh-needle then f-tilt , f-air?

I mean its a thought i never tried it but if you sh-needle it would allow them to up-b again missing the sweetspot and you can f-tilt f-air.

If they drop going for another sweetspot another sh-needle? Until they come up without sweetspotting?

Just a thought

 

[brickman]

possibly applicable! It sounds like a war of attrition, with sheik probably winning out in the end if the sheik is consistent enough.

 

[Teczer0]

LOL Sheik wins because in the end we all love ninjas.

 

[SPAWN]

This is probably one of the most useful topics in the Sheik char spec. Good **** Tec.

For edgeguarding Falcon when they go and hug the edge... go onto the edge and it's really easy, haha. You can then just nair and stuff. I find that if I dsmash the ledge, I always get hit by Falcon's upb because he wall techs it and then he recovers.

For this situation, are you from far away, meaning you can't make it to the edge in time? Also, is the falcon at low percent...or..? Sorry if I'm being too specific.

 

[Teczer0]

Spawn lol thanks

Actually thats a good idea lets assume you can reach the edge in time what would you do? And CF is at relatively low percent also.

 

[SPAWN]

Just keep nairing like you would fox, then fast fall wavedash back onto the ledge. Or you can do the jump nair and make it back onto the ledge without having to jump again, like you jump off the ledge and nair, then you make it back onto the ledge. Repeat until he's going to sweetspot and then just edgehog, hooorah you edgeguarded falcon, haha.

 

[Teczer0]

Summary of CF match up

First of all grab, tech chase, regrab. Captain Falcon's tech get up is rather slow and a jump canceled grab will get him almost every time as long as you are competent and consistent. This should do the trick for about 4-5 grabs. Now that you have a fair amount of damage on him say (55-65%) you should be working on getting him off the stage.

Don't let him regroup on the stage with endless dash dancing and getting his spacing. Interrupt it with needles. If he does by chance get the spacing off whip out the neutral air. It should bite through most things he can throw out. If you are playing smart you wont have to worry about this. Pressure him and keep him off the stage.

Everyone has their own views on how to best keep CF off from getting back. Some people say that it is easy other say it is difficult. I think it is entirely situation based. You should approach the get back of the CF on a situation by situation basis. Some situations can be solved with interrupting his down b get back with a needle and forcing him to use his up b. This is easy to guard against and most cases he is usually far out enough where you can just edge hog. Other approaches will require some judgment. CF may recover above the stage, and that is where the real thinking is required. Slapping will just result in him jumping higher and higher. Instead, wait for him to land (watch his DI) and grab and re grab him. You will build up more damage in a much more controlled fashion.

This match can be completely controlled if you play it right. Don't give CF room to think. Needle him when he dances, neutral air him when he approaches. When you have the opening grab him. Don't stop grabbing him until you can knock him off the stage. Once he is off make sure you can rack up damage and control his movements as best as possible. Different pros have different approaches to keeping CF off the stage. Some go out and hit him while others are concerned with dealing with him on the stage. Take your style and deal with him how ever way you feel most comfortable.

Sheik has numerous moves with which he can dominate CF, needles, neutral air, down smash, and grabs will freeze up the motion and movements of CF. By breaking up the flow of his game and controlling the pace of the match up you will be able to handle this match up fairly competently.

To edgeguard CF that hugs the stage grab the edge and jump off n-air. If they are at a low percent just do it again until they die.

If you can't make it try to sh-needle or Full hop Needle the edge to force CF off the stage again. Try to f-tilt/d-tilt -> f-air or re-grab b-throw.

Try not to CC vs CF so often either he tends to be able to D-air you a lot and it could hurt. The only CCable move is his Raptor Boost (Side B move).

Avoid D-smashing and dash attacking in excess. In many cases its simply too easy to punish with d-air or the knee.

Stay away from trying to shield grabbing CF its often very hard to grab him if he plays well.

If they d-throw you don't DI away it can potentially allow CF to CG you till you die.

If they grab you and your at around 60-80% try to mix up DI if the CF reads your DI the throw into knee is inescapable.

F-tilt and n-air are very useful against CF's approach.


CF input by:

Teczero, Brickman, General_Zod, Hazygoose, SPAWN

Large thanks to Brickman for most of the information.

compilation of CF match up good stuff guys this is going to go on the first page.

 

[SPAWN]

I tried Di'ing away against Cort's, Zoso's, and Brookman's Falcon and I never got chaingrabbed. Whenever I di'd up though, it went upair to upair to upair to nair to knee or something ridiculous like that. But, I've never played Darkrain, so I guess I wouldn't know, haha.

Edit: Ftilt goes through all of CF's moves. Nair goes through all of them too I think... but I'm not positive.

 

[brickman]

I'm stealing it and putting it in my guide, lol!

This should probably be a stickied thread.

I suggest moving the topic of discussion onto falco and fox.

let the questions begin!

 

[Drephen]

i think we should start talking about the marth vs shiek matchup

most people say "just counterpick a marth with shiek and you'll win"

but now with marth coming back as the most popular character i dont think this is the case anymore

i'll make another long *** post about what i personally do a little later

EDIT: thanks for the falcon stuff everyone, one of my weaker matchups

 

[brickman]

Yea, I have seen a resurgence in the amount of Marth players recently. I use to be able to handle Marth's no problem. I think the things that I have had a lot of trouble with is getting caught up in tilts, followed by aerials into a spike or a forward smash. The grabs and his edge game against Marth has also proved difficult for me. I have tried to figure out some types of strategies against him and they have gone alright, but I always like suggestions and input. I will probably write a dueling post with Drephen on what I think of the match up, tomorrow of course. One match up per day I think is my quota.

 

[Teczer0]

I do fairly well vs Marth actually LOL.....

>_> well.. I dunno... lol...

I'll let drephen and brickman at it ^_^v

LOL at stealing for the guide >_> I want to be a co-owner for this guide brickman LOL

 

[SPAWN]

You can ftilt to jab and then grab against Falcon's shield... spaced of course. My friend did this against Jiano and it worked. If they get accustomed to the grab, then you can do an aerial or rinse repeat the ftilt jab process. I'll experiment some vs Falcon with edgeguarding stuff and get back to this thread when I do.

For Marth, I've found cc'ing a lot vs Marth is really ****ing good. I found this out playing Hayato, and I won. Then I used it vs Cort and won a few... instead of normally getting *****. Also, grabbing shields is really important and ****** after grabs is important for that matchup. Once you get one grab in you can get like 70 damage in sometimes. Even vs good Marths.

I noticed vs Cort, he would destroy me the whole game until I get a grab in. Stupid Marth having so much range. I'll try and get some matches up sometime and see if that helps anyone. :-/

 

[brickman]

I'll let drephen and brookman at it v-_-v

Brookman is an entirely different smasher, lol. No worries.

 

[Teczer0]

Awesome lol I usually check out Cort's vids so Ill probably see them anyway lol.

Maybe I'll be brave and post up my sheik LOL.

Brickman - I know LOL I'm like stupid atm I just forgot I put your name at the bottom too I'm a mega nub LOL.....

Sry bout that >_>

 

[brickman]

I've watch your video's Tec, they are pretty good.
I think I have watched most of your vids Spawn, I like your play style a lot.

Post vids of your Sheik in case I missed any.

 

[SPAWN]

Haha, thanks brickman. I just played smash all night last night with Brookman and Cort so I leveled up a bunch. I'll be sure to record some with them and I'll post them here.

 

[brickman]

**** you lucky lucky boy.

I'm going to spend Jan 1-14 traveling around Illinois trying to find people to play with. Hopefully I can get some more practice. Just want to get as good as I can.

 

[SPAWN]

Hooray for living 30 mins from good people.

Good luck btw.

 

[Zane Fleia]

Marth is one of my okay matchups. I don't think it's as one-sided as most people make it out to be though...

Pretty much, look for the grab. Grab combos into raep. Run around and evade stuff, make him approach you. If you can hit with a jab, you can probably immediately run into a grab somewhere around 70-80% of the time-ish, when they're not expecting it.

Knowing how to space things is key against Marth, because so much of his game is based on spacing. It's important to know how he spaces things so you can retaliate in the lag.

If you shield a Fsmash, you can wavedash out of your shield and grab him almost every time while he's recovering. And, as always, that should combo into raep.

 

[General_Zod]

=d

against marth, hmm. This is a difficult match up indeed, but it is still incline a little bit(only a little) towards Sheik. First off, CC works wonders against marth. CC down tilts will lead to F-airs most of the time. Now, grabs, this is a "who gets the most grabs" match up, because both characters have very good throws that will lead to **** combos most of the time. When you grab a marth you have to follow their DI. At low percentages, if they DI towards you, you can upsmash or u tilt > forward tilt > fair and if they DI away from you, you can either regrab or forward tilt> fair..
Needles, the almighty needles, my best advice is to camp the marth with needles taking advantage of the fact that marth has no projectiles. Needles hurt him pretty bad and it is a nice way to rack up damage. As for the downsmash, as with falcon, use it wisely. I use it to avoid getting grabbed.
F-airing and b-airing into forward tilts are too good. Most marth players will want to grab you after your aerial, so you can punish them for trying to... punish you. :D
Waveshielding is awesome against marth. His delay after a forward smash can lead to a waveshieldgrab most of the time.
Edge guarding... hmm, marth's recovery is bad but it can be a pain in the butt sometimes. I will say mess their "sword dance" recovery with needles or back airs. If they are below the stage, ledgehopped bairs and nairs are your safest option. Sometimes you can even fake a needle storm forcing them to lower their position and F-air them afterwards.
Maintain your space, pressure with needles, get the grabs and make him aproach you. Easier said than done, huh? xD. But this is bassicly the game against him.
This is all I got for now. If I remember anything else I'll post it later. :D

Edit: Drephen congratulations for winning season's beatings :D

 

[cablepuff]

Now, grabs, this is a "who gets the most grabs" match up, because both characters have very good throws that will lead to **** combos most of the time. When you grab a marth you have to follow their DI. At low percentages, if they DI towards you, you can upsmash or u tilt > forward tilt > fair and if they DI away from you, you can either regrab or forward tilt> fair..

Wrong, Marth grab does not lead to **** unless you either have bad di or you are on yoshi story, even that isn't that bad...

Needles, the almighty needles, my best advice is to camp the marth with needles taking advantage of the fact that marth has no projectiles. Needles hurt him pretty bad and it is a nice way to rack up damage. As for the downsmash, as with falcon, use it wisely. I use it to avoid getting grabbed.

Hmm i don't think down smash is that good against marth.. cause if you try to avoid getting grab you could get tipper forward smash if they can't grab.. or they can just wavedash out of shield and grab you. I personally use it only as edge guard.

 

[Zane Fleia]

While Marth's grabs doesn't always lead into raep (as yours always should), that doesn't mean this isn't a "Who Grabs First/More" matchup. Grabs are hugely important to both Sheik and Marth against eachother. Sheik kills out of grab, while Marth has the godly grab range and can use it, along with his disjointed hits and range, to control the whole matchup.

Sheik has the ability to evade Marth's sword most of the time, while Marth has the ability to use it to stop Sheik from advancing with too much efficiency. They both carry the threat of an amazing grab game too. So in the end, this should become a grab game because that's their way to get through an opponent's defense, when they screw up and become vulnerable for that split second.

At least, that's the way I see it.

 

[SPAWN]

Yeah, if you di wrong against Marth's grab at low percents... say bye bye to stock. Make sure you di fairs away, and di the throw... I don't remember. All I know is jump out as fast as possible, that's what dj told me. I'll try and remember which way I di next time I play a marth.

Always ban Yoshi's story against Marth. And always go DL unless you feel more comfortable on another stage.

I don't dsmash nearly as much as any other matchup for vs Marth.

 

[brickman]

Here is one of my first entry on the topic of Sheik v Marth.

Tilts

Tilts in this match up are extremely useful for both parties. Sheik needs them to rack up damage in a very similar way to Marth. Use your up tilt to rack up a little damage and then work it into a forward tilt. You are going to want to follow him (mind you spacing for his forward air) as he DI's away from your tilt's. Be careful becuase your tilts can be taken over by the just as (probably more) massive tilts. If there is one thing you should be making sure of in this match, it is you are spaced correctly to avoided tippers, aerials, and tilts. You have to keep it in tight in this match up to ensure that your tilts will take priority of Marths. By keeping it tight you do put yourself in a reasonable amount of risk because sheik in close proximity of Marth at low percentages can be destroyed (assuming you are unable to get out of the fury of the tilts).

 

[SPAWN]

Tilts aren't that good in the matchup. Most of the Marths I play cc them and then ****. >_>

 

[Drephen]

alright guess its my turn

Again i play wayyy different then normal people so it might not work for everyone

Shiek vs Marth:
The main two moves i spam like crazy against marth is dash attack and grab. Downsmash doesnt work too well against marth, it can sometimes come in handy if they sidestep spam but its just better to predect the sidestep and then grab.

Dash attack: The big thing about this is to start the dash attack close to marth. If you do it from far away you will get shield grabbed, so do it so the dash attack goes through marth's shield. This move is good to do at any percent and can combo from mid-high percents.

Grab: When you get a grab always throw down. Very rare occasions do i throw marth back or forward even if im close to the ledge(im not good at fancy off the ledge edge guarding). When you throw down they will either DI away, DI neutral, DI up and away, or jump outta it. When they DI away grab them again. You have time to react to the throw so you can take your time and see which way they DI. So chaingrab if they DI away. Eventually when they are in killing range and they DI away go for the slap.
If they DI neutral i always go for the up smash. Depending on which way they DI it can be a regular or tipper up smash. Its good and it kills a low percents. Only a few marths know how to get outta the up smash(i did it mutiple times to m2k,cactuar,azen if that tells you anything) so dont be afraid to spam it. If it somehow stops working just go for the up air. Eventually at higher percents you will have to go for the up air anyway but spam the up smash as much as you can.

Ledgeguarding: It all really depends on how much time if you have to get over to the ledge. If you have time grab the ledge and do a back air. Time the back air so it hits right after they use their forward b to recover(this way you wont get hit by their forward b or get hit if they try to attack you as they are coming back), Marths will usually drop really low to avoid shiek's back air so just hang on the ledge and roll back on. I sometimes do the KDJ and do a neutral air from hanging on the ledge but sometimes it back fires so im a pu.ssy and dont do it. If they somehow make it on the stage and your still hanging on the ledge you can hit them with a fair, or even better is to come up with an up air and combo off of that.
If you dont have time to grab the ledge i usually spam downtilt and hopfully combo into an fair, very rarely do i pull a plank and come down with a fastfalled fair.

Coming back from the stage: Ledgeguarding shiek is the most common way marth kill(that and random as.s tippers). If you are near the edge and a marth down throws you first thing to do is NOT FREAK OUT. Most of the wins M2K gets is because he takes advantage of this. First thing you try to do is just see if your 2nd jump is enough to make it back on the stage(Marth will obviously try to hit you as you do this so either come back with an attack or air dodge though it). Also airdodging right away onto the stage sometimes throws them off. Otherwise you are gonna have to up b. Marth will be hanging there so you can either to 2 things: upb onto the stage or onto the ledge.
This is one of the times where you are gonna have to read your opponent. There are Marths who are patient (Husband, m2k, Cactuar) and those who constantly move (Lord Knight, Ken, DJ Combo). If it is a patient marth they are gonna hang onto that ledge untill the very last second so you have to up b back onto the stage. Constantly moving marths will usually get off the ledge so you can trick them and up b straight into the ledge.
Now if you up b back onto the stage the marth is gonna either fsmash you or grab you again depending on how much time they have. The best thing you can do is DI good and hope to get free.

General tactics:
One thing i cannot stand when sheiks approach marth is that they do it from the air DO NOT APPROACH FROM THE AIR Even if you are needle spamming you are gonna get buttf,ucked. Marth's up tilt is too good and can easily combo into nasty stuff and usually your attacks will get shield grabbed and your get screwed that way. So i stay on the ground and go for dash attacks and grabs.
When you do get grabbed by marth they will usually only throw down, forward, or up (only person who throws back is ken and i dont understand how he combos with it) If marth throws down always tech away unless you run outta room on the stage cause marth will go for the tipper fsmash. If they throw forward you can automatically shield at low percent but again tech away. For the up throw always DI Up and away and spam jump. You will not get hit by anything but you have to be careful on how you get down cause you dont have your 2nd jump anymore and can get combo'd easily.
If you do get a marth that just camps the ledge waiting for you to come to them like gay as.s M2K, DONT GO OVER THERE. If they are gonna play gay, play gay back. Just spam needles and let them come to you even if it means all 8 mins go by.

Think thats all i got for now. This thread is awsome btw, glad to see everyone contributing. Merry Christmas!

 

[SPAWN]

I love Drephen so much. Just thought I'd put that out there. I agreed with everything in there. I've approached a Marth with spaced bair before, but I haven't done that in a long time.

 

[Zane Fleia]

Drephen, congratulations. You won an internet. ^_^