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Sheik Matchup Discussion 2011 - Now discussing Diddy

choknater

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45:55 slight snake

pretty simple matchup. if we stay away and needle a lot, and then find opportunities to grab/ftilt when he gets close, we rack up damage SOOOOOOOOOOO fast. but yeah he does so much damage when we mess up or somehow gets close enough to us so that he can grab/use ftilt. as far as camping, needles have the slight upper hand in effectiveness. in the close range game, they are pretty even but snake's damage is just way better
 

BRoomer
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I'm fine with you talking about matchups, as long as you don't talk down to other people while you do it.
My opinions and ideas on match ups have a tendency to be wildly different from how the rest of the community see them. IC probably being the most well noted example. Facts I bring up, or things that work in my experience are immediately shot down because if the ICs play perfectly it doesn't mater how much range "X move" has because grab always beats it. because ice block stops needles. I begin to get bitter when people hardly look into my advice before they tell me I'm wrong. I feel like my experience, result, and knowledge should almost speak for myself.

I digress...

MK sheik is only about as hard as you make it. MK doesn't have the tools to wall you in because Nado doesn't work on your shield, and because you have an amazing projectile that really changes how he has to approach. his aerial game isn't very powerful against you, and your superior ground mobility and shield dash gives you a very wide range of approach options, and better yet lets you move so that you have a zone advantage.

if you sit in your shield and let MK walk up and tilt how he wants of course you can't counter that, but all of your confrontations are going to begin like that... unless you give that to MK. Use your mobility bait, punish.

@ jab to punish MK dtilt.
if MK dtilt twice you mentally have the reaction to let go of shield and hold jab pretty well. its very hard to do on reaction, just like its hard to punish sheik's first ftilt on reaction hit or sheild. most people can pull a nade or nair or throw out an upB after the second, but rarely will they punish you with the first. If MK dtilit your shield twice punish it. If he dtilt grab mix ups or something...
/shrug


And I don't mean to be rude, thats hardly my intention, but the sheik community; and I use that very very loosely; don't aim to solve problems. They are just listed them and the many strengths sheik may have aren't explored or worse completely over looked and ignored. At least thats how it feels to me. It's almost like thats used as an excuse for losing. Rio's post impreticular made me feel that way and kind of started my mini rant. What about your matches made you feel like the match up was so bad for sheik?

You see since I don't believe in some magical god given talent, but instead work, experience, and practice. I feel like people should at the very least aim to solve their issues in their match ups not any where in here has any of the issues sheik has been addressed and have we attempted to solve them. The mid set of "okay we all agree on a ratio" isn't a healthy one when you are having a character discussion.

:pichu:
 

Zankoku

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I don't know of any Meta Knight players on my level of skill, so I only know of better players who beat me, and worse ones who lose to me. I don't feel the matchup is "so bad" for Sheik, but I definitely don't see it as merely a "very slight" advantage (55:45 is as slight as you can get). Combining Meta Knight's superior range*, overall cooldown among his moveset, and general ability to avoid getting edgeguarded effectively, Sheik doesn't really have anything she can actually exploit against Meta Knight compared to any others of the cast that similarly have a difficult but playable matchup against him. Also, Sheik's recovery is somewhat punishable, and while her attacks have superior reach*, having a farther-hitting attack against a purely disjointed one will rarely win out. The only defining parts are Sheik's ftilt lock, which is far more limited in this matchup compared to many others, and her needles, which lose some of their power against a character with multiple jumps. I don't see these as nearly enough to bring the matchup close to even.

*I use the term range to define how far his hitbox goes past his hurtbox, whereas reach involves how far a hitbox goes beyond the character's center of gravity; in this, Sheik is at least superior most of the time.
 

Judo777

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This is how i compare MU's typically. It boils down to this. 1. How many more times must we win neutral reset and follow up and bait reactions. 2. How easy is it to win initial reset in the first place. 3. How easy is it to proceed once you win neutral reset. 4. How many default options to have against them and vice versa. 5. How easy is it to put them in a poor field position/how many bad field positions are there/how easy is it to maintain that bad field position. That last one sort or links off the others.

Take Snake. Pretty close MU.

1. We actually don't have to win initial reset that many more times than him. When he wins we take an ftilt, when we win he takes A FREAKING ton of damage if we do it right. His weight does slant this in his favor tho.

2. Its actually also not that hard to win neutral reset. Its tricky but at mid range we can bait ftilts and if we dash in and block his ftilt close we can punish with a grab or ftilt if its misspaced. I think he wins a little but its not super hard for us to win this one.

3. Once we win and get him in the air. It is actually fairly simple to juggle and keep him there. Following up and proceeding with traps and juggles isn't that hard so this is good.

4. Default options. We have 2 big ones. Needles are typically very safe and are powerful. Also if we get up close snake doesn't have alot to beat jab right in his face. These are both 2 things that are good in most situations.

5. Snake has one bad field spot. In the air. This spot is also everywhere. Getting snake there is as simple as a throw or ftilt. Once hes there see number 2 to see that its actually not very hard to keep him there.

All of these make it IMO only slightly in his favor.

MK on the other hand.

1. We have to win neutral reset ALOT more than MK with one big exception. Typically when we get a punish on MK its fairly minimal and the situation resets itself. The only exception and equalizer is ftilt. If we can land that on neutral reset we can help balance this but once MK gets us in the air we typically take alot of damage.

2. Winning Neutral reset on MK is pretty challenging is he use hit tilts properly. If we manage to close in with our shield it becomes a guessing game with how we are to proceed. We have options to get in close but we have to be careful because MK's options are fast and amazing. However if we can manage to get in close we have tools to win the neutral reset but often times it requires you to trick them.

3. Probably the most frustrating thing about the MU is that once we win neutral reset it is almost impossible to follow it up reliably. So each win is typically fairly minute. In certain situations we can get off big damage but often we get in a hit or 2 then we are back to neutral reset. Not being able to follow MK reliably is the most frustrating thing.

4. We really only seem to have 1 default option against MK ever and that is needles. However these are greatly diminished by his multiple jumps and his ability to avoid them. They are still effective but not neatr as much as other MU's.

5. Another big issue. MK doesn't ever have bad field advantage. MK is in a good spot everywhere. On the ground, in the air, above you (while not that good isn't terrible for him he has options), under you (which is amazing for him), offstage, when ur offstage (LOL). The only range that is less favorable for him is long range when you can throw stuff at him but thats no worse than just about anyone else in the game at that range.

I think that warrants a solid advantage
 

Tewx2

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@Renki I get wrecked by MK's. I CP FD if I Can, if the ban it I go CS, and get wrecked worse. Lately I stick to the salty runback on BF because its where I feel the most comfortable, sometimes lylat.

Vs Snake I heavily agree with 55-45 Snake's favor. His heaviness is both a + and a - for us, its hard to kill the man, but its really easy to juggle and punish his landings. He takes a crapload off stage from us, but once he lands, its like the effin terminator. His dash attacks and grabs, are brutal though, and I have a horrid time recovering against him, but that could just be a me thing.
 

riocosta123

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I should say that Pwii fully utilized MK's offstage advantage better than any MK I've ever faced ( he ended up taking 2nd at the tourney at I was at, 2 stocking ADHD a few times). Pwii probably has the best reaction time of any MK I've played and you can punish all of Sheik's options off stage on reaction. We can definitely go even on stage, but the disadvantage off stage is so great that in my mind an even part+ a terrible part = a pretty bad matchup. The stage list certainly doesn't help and a smart MK is always going to ban FD.

MK's mobility on the ground is also pretty darn close to Sheik's. Sheik is faster, but not overwhelmingly so.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by his air game "not working" against us. MK's speed is equivalent to our own, except his attacks last longer, have more range and have better priority. I'll agree dair camping doesn't work as well as it does on other characters, but that's obvious.

I was actually pretty confident in the MK matchup before him and I used to think it was 60:40 at wost, but it looks like I was just playing decent/average MK's.

It was also my first tournament in over a year, but I did well against other people so idk. Also, you talk about your results speaking for yourself, but when was the last time you beat a notable MK in tournament? I'm not saying to troll, but I'm just curious. I'd do a search but your name makes it difficult.
 

-Mars-

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Rio FD is not a smart choice against MK imo.....especially if your facing a MK that cuts off all your recovery options.
 

Nike.

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I played a Snake last night with Sheik. Wrecked him first game when he tried camping with nades.

I lost every match after that cuz he approached. I have no idea how sheik can stop ftilt, so stupid :(
 

Renki

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Rio FD is not a smart choice against MK imo.....especially if your facing a MK that cuts off all your recovery options.
I learned that an opponent covering your recovery is really bad after playing Kyon's peach on FD.

Kyon. ;D
 

Supreme Dirt

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Shield through FTilt, then grab him after the second hit. That's basically how to beat FTilt.
 

Zankoku

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Unless the Snake spaced poorly or you powershielded the first hit, you should not be able to shieldgrab after the second hit of ftilt.
 

Supreme Dirt

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You're powershielding the first hit. I'm well aware that almost no one can grab it normally.
 

Judo777

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I played a Snake last night with Sheik. Wrecked him first game when he tried camping with nades.

I lost every match after that cuz he approached. I have no idea how sheik can stop ftilt, so stupid :(
A well timed and spaced roll can get you behind him if you roll just outside of ftilt 1 range. PSing the first one as they said also works. Or you can be a boss like me against Nope a year ago and PS BOTH hits of ftilt and then punish with dsmash for the kill (haha one of the cooler things i have done in tourney).

Most importantly tho is moving around and dashing into shield so that it is harder for snake to space it right. If you let snake space his stuff right its gonna be hard to avoid. Staying stagnant against snake is not something you want. Move around and make him work to space.
 

riocosta123

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You're probably right, Mars. I think he just banned it against me because I wasn't messing up my grab releases.
 

BRoomer
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you can punish ftilt2 on sheild with dash attack every time no matter how well the snake spaces.

rolling behind snake or anyone is generally a bad idea. You can get punished really hard of those rolls become even slightly predictable. I've lost many a stock because I try to roll behind snake. generally rolling is not a strong approach.
 

BlueBomberXTJ

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power shield first hit of Ftilt Side step second hit if they do it immediately after. Punish with ftilt grab dtilt others. Get him in the air Read air dodges lol. Ftilt is not scary. Utilt is scary. Even if I dont use shiek at the moment Shieik vs Snake works similar to Zss vs snake. Snakes dacus is free needles. Ftilt is a free punish. Id say the only thing snake has on shiek is shield grabbing and hes heavy. Shiek can bait snakes air dodges, sidesteps, and rolls pretty nicely with good punishing attacks. Ima say 50 50 because of shiek being able to give snake damage fairly easy but being hard to kill. This matchup shouldn't be hard unless you look to the lightside of it lol. I dont think snake can camp or approach shiek. Just my thoughts tho.
 

phi1ny3

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you can punish ftilt2 on sheild with dash attack every time no matter how well the snake spaces.

rolling behind snake or anyone is generally a bad idea. You can get punished really hard of those rolls become even slightly predictable. I've lost many a stock because I try to roll behind snake. generally rolling is not a strong approach.
Snake's don't ftilt2 shields a lot anymore. Most of them poke around w/ ftilt1 then either reset or change it up, they almost always ftilt2 only if they get a "hit confirm" w/ ftilt1.

power shield first hit of Ftilt Side step second hit if they do it immediately after. Punish with ftilt grab dtilt others. Get him in the air Read air dodges lol. Ftilt is not scary. Utilt is scary. Even if I dont use shiek at the moment Shieik vs Snake works similar to Zss vs snake. Snakes dacus is free needles. Ftilt is a free punish. Id say the only thing snake has on shiek is shield grabbing and hes heavy. Shiek can grad snakes air dodges, sidesteps, and rolls pretty nicely with good punishing attacks. Ima say 50 50 because of shiek being able to give snake damage fairly easy but being hard to kill. This matchup shouldn't be hard unless you look to the lightside of it lol. I dont think snake can camp or approach shiek. Just my thoughts tho.
powershielding a frame 4 move that is interchangeable w/ a good grab (especially pivot grab) or jab doesn't seem realistic imo :(

You're right on a lot of the other stuff though.

Judo's advice seems pretty legit. Make him whiff, use mobility to compensate for lack of range, camp w/ needles, etc.
 

BlueBomberXTJ

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usually some snakes jab before they do ftilt so thats howi think a power shield may come into play lol.
While poking shiek with ftilt shiek can still punish immediately imo.
 

Judo777

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you can punish ftilt2 on sheild with dash attack every time no matter how well the snake spaces.

rolling behind snake or anyone is generally a bad idea. You can get punished really hard of those rolls become even slightly predictable. I've lost many a stock because I try to roll behind snake. generally rolling is not a strong approach.
I don't think thats true I might be wrong but that really doesn't feel right.
 

Zankoku

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You theoretically have an 8-frame window to pull off a shield-dropped dash attack. That's a little over a tenth of a second.
 

Judo777

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You theoretically have an 8-frame window to pull off a shield-dropped dash attack. That's a little over a tenth of a second.
Can instant DA reach snake? and is that 8 frames of leeway or 8 frames to pull off a 7 frame move?
 

Zankoku

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The latter. For what it's worth, I'm not sure of the merits of attempting to do this when Snake can just mash an uptilt after the cooldown, unless you know exactly when the second ftilt hit is about to happen. It's likely far more effective to see how he follows up from a shielded ftilt and punish that.
 

Judo777

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The latter. For what it's worth, I'm not sure of the merits of attempting to do this when Snake can just mash an uptilt after the cooldown, unless you know exactly when the second ftilt hit is about to happen. It's likely far more effective to see how he follows up from a shielded ftilt and punish that.
like i don't seriously think that instant DA will hit him and that mean you have 1 frame to make up any kind of distance which i think it actually takes 1 frame to start a dash anyway. And even if it did reach it would probably be the farthest hitbox of DA which has very little knockback. You would probably get punished on connect. I just doesn't seem worth it.
 

Supreme Dirt

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I'm going to go through older MU discussions when doing the writeups, but feel free to quote them. Just don't do it too much.
 

Tewx2

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I'm pretty sure you can dash grab after shielding the second hit of f-tilt, since the range is shorter you might not be able to do it if you end super far away from him though.
 

Judo777

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I'm pretty sure you can dash grab after shielding the second hit of f-tilt, since the range is shorter you might not be able to do it if you end super far away from him though.
I mean its spacing dependent but i am fairly positive dash grabbing isn't possible. Its too slow/short.
 

Tewx2

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I always feel like it shouldn't work, but it might be working by virtue of the snake player attempting to sheild a dash attack.
 

Dabuz

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the best you can hope for is grabbing snake while taking damage due to grab armor, but otherwise you can't just dash grab a snake. Although you can shield, dash to bait out an ftilt/ uptilt/grab and then spotdodge to grab or ftilt.
 

Dabuz

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nope, not nearly as bad, its just as risky if its predicted, but non ones gonna predict that the first time, its like a pocket mix-up
 

-Mars-

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Spotdodge mixups are what has turned Poltergust from a good player to a great player from what I hear.
 

phi1ny3

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running up and spot dodging is almost as bad as running up then rolling behind someone in my opinion
I think for the sake of principle this is a good thing to say because I know that the biggest tendency for a lot of sheiks playing w/ her first time is spotdodge -> dsmash/jab to the point of mega-predictability.

I think it could be used as a decent mixup though, although sounds risky to use against snake (especially the whole "approaching him" part in general LOL).
 

Supreme Dirt

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Next up is Diddy.

Someone want to do the Snake write up? My life's pretty busy, but I will eventually get up the MK one.
 
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