Sheik Matchup Discussion 2011 - Now discussing Diddy

[Supreme Dirt]

This post will be getting updated in due time. Just have to decide on a format.

Brief list:

Brief MU Ratio List

1. Meta Knight 35:65
2. Snake NOW DISCUSSING

1. Meta Knight​

35:65
DISADVANTAGE​

Writeup coming this week.

2. Snake​

45:55
ROUGHLY EVEN​

Writeup coming when I get around to it.

Now discussing.​

 

[Kisamealex3]

Just to get the topic rolling, I will start off to say it is extremely stage dependent.

For example, it's a 50-50 on FD but ranges to about 60-40 (MK's favor) on BF and many other stages.

Imo of course.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Just to get the topic rolling, I will start off to say it is extremely stage dependent.

For example, it's a 50-50 on FD but ranges to about 60-40 (MK's favor) on BF and many other stages.

Imo of course.

I loved this thread on the Ganon boards!.

58/42
We do very well against him but if he isolates us against the ledge, than we fight an uphill battle. Punish with speed and don't be hasty, pressing you're advantage.

Ban: Brinstar
CP: FD/CS

 

[-Mars-]

I'm starting to think MK is 65-35 with us.....also I dislike FD a lot for this MU

 

[Renki]

Agreed. I loved this thread in the Ganon Boards.

I think this MU is fairly stage dependent. Certain stages mess up your spacing really bad, lol.

Imo, the MU is 60 / 40

As Ed has mentioned, when we're not at the ledge, MK isn't so bad for us. Make sure to enforce your stage control(stay near the middle of the stage), learn your GR->Dacus(if applicable), and know how and when to punish certain things(Nair for Tornado when it's active, needle(s)/Dash attack for Tornado endlag, etc).


Ban: Brinstar
CP: FD/CS(or whatever stage you feel comfy on really)

 

[<π]

this is a match up where you really need to know your stuff to do well against top players. what can be punished where etc. (like renki mentioned) I'd got as close as 55/45. most of MK's move set isn't all that safe on wiff against sheik like it is on many other characters.

needles.

learning to recover well is huge because you can lose stocks low percent if you are making errors recovering. When you get hit off stage don't give up find a way to recover generally there is one.

55/45 MK

CP: FD
Worst: rainbow? Lylat?

 

[Judo777]

this is a match up where you really need to know your stuff to do well against top players. what can be punished where etc. (like renki mentioned) I'd got as close as 55/45. most of MK's move set isn't all that safe on wiff against sheik like it is on many other characters.

needles.

learning to recover well is huge because you can lose stocks low percent if you are making errors recovering. When you get hit off stage don't give up find a way to recover generally there is one.

55/45 MK

CP: FD
Worst: rainbow? Lylat?

Most of MK's safer moves are safe on shield and whiff. Punishing ftilt and dtilt are impossible same for fsmash.

 

[-Mars-]

Yea what Judo said. MK can't whiff stuff like dair against SHeik .....but ftilt is safe if he doesn't use the 3rd hit and dtilt spaced properly I don't know if any character in the game can punish that.

If he dtilts and tries to dash grab you can jab him though as long as you don't trip.

 

[<π]

ftilt is never safe on shield but its a guessing game for the person on defense.
shield drop jab beats dtilt.

 

[-Mars-]

At maximum range his dtilt is probably like twice the length of our jab.

 

[Judo777]

ftilt is never safe on shield but its a guessing game for the person on defense.
shield drop jab beats dtilt.

but guessing games are bad for sheik cause we always lose harder.

 

[<π]

frame summary:
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 6
3rd hit on: 9
Soonest IASA frame: 41
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1 for all hits

1st attack shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -12

2nd and 3rd attacks shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23

MK's ftilt frame data. not that amazing.

with a move like ftilit the risk is worth what you can get. ftilts and jabs lead to big damage agianst MK. MK's ftilt doesn't really lead into much at any percent.

 

[Zankoku]

Ftilt dsmash works at higher percents unless you somehow see it coming and SDI away on the single hit of ftilt. MK's third hit of ftilt launches upward, and being above Meta Knight is a very bad situation for Sheik. While this isn't guaranteed big damage, everyone should know how much trouble Sheik has dealing with a ranged character directly below her. In addition, the frame disadvantage from hitting a shield with the first hit only applies to when MK decides to not follow through - it is not shield-grabbable on the first hit if he chooses to do all three. The guessing game here is - do you risk waiting for the third hit and potentially get mixed up into a grab or reset into more shield pressure, or do you risk attempting to punish after the first hit and potentially get sent right above Meta Knight?

Jabs do not lead into guaranteed big damage, last I checked - it's as much of a mixup as Meta Knight's ftilt.

Also, I feel this matchup is at best 60:40 in advantage for Meta Knight.

 

[riocosta123]

Yeah, after playing pwii I'm inclined to think it's closer to 65:35. Also, no Sheik beating a notable MK doesn't help.

 

[<π]

Yeah, after playing pwii I'm inclined to think it's closer to 65:35. Also, no Sheik beating a notable MK doesn't help.

you guys limit yourselves so much.

 

[Zankoku]

Kind of insulting to downplay every one of Sheik's bad matchups and accuse anyone who disagrees of either not knowing the matchup or "limiting ourselves." If you beat a Meta Knight with a full stock left from your 90 reads to his 40 total, it's not the matchup being even, it's you seeing that many more things the Meta Knight player is doing wrong.

On top of that, I'm not even saying "this is a disadvantaged matchup" as a way of telling people give up now. I'm saying "don't go into this thinking you're close to being on even ground," because you're not.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Kind of insulting to downplay every one of Sheik's bad matchups and accuse anyone who disagrees of either not knowing the matchup or "limiting ourselves." If you beat a Meta Knight with a full stock left from your 90 reads to his 40 total, it's not the matchup being even, it's you seeing that many more things the Meta Knight player is doing wrong.

On top of that, I'm not even saying "this is a disadvantaged matchup" as a way of telling people give up now. I'm saying "don't go into this thinking you're close to being on even ground," because you're not.

That is a good way of putting it. I think that's the basis of my ratio leaning toward outright disadvantage rather than slight. Reason why I didn't say 60-40 is because we can really put the boots to him off mistakes and reads.

 

[Judo777]

I screwed around with punishing dtilt on shield today and more often than not here is what happened (partially due to the fact that reacting to dtilt is hard.) Mk dtilts my shield, I shield drop, jab him but because i wasn't you know frame perfect i trade with his ftilt. But it seems MK's moves all have more hitstun so trading gets us hit again because we canceled his lag.

 

[<π]

I'm saying don't give up because you can't beat one guy... yet
That is limiting yourself tremendously. I've put in literally hours with straight seibrik, m2k, and other high level MK players. Shiek has the tools to do very well against MK. If every game is down to the last stock then its obvious (especially considering how little I play, still can't GRdacus consistently) that sheik can do quite well in the match up.

As a mid tier main you can't go in to matches looking for reasons as to why you can't win. Yes understand your weaknesses, understand your limits but don't create anymore than you need to. I have an issue with "X" I can't seem to beat it.
That should never be the end of it but the beginning. Can I punish X no? can I avoid situations where X happens? when I can't avoid X how do I DI? High teirs main who do well (and low teir mains for that mater) ask themselves these questions constantly. too many players will wall themselves in "Man I can't beat this move... I can't beat this zone... I can't beat this character... I can't beat this player and they let that be the end of it.

I'm just saying don't do that.Always put in the effort.

/shrug

IDK.

 

[Zankoku]

Sorry, last I checked, explaining exactly what you're up against when analyzing Meta Knight's ftilt is not saying that it is unbeatable. Saying that a matchup is at best disadvantaged for us is not saying we can't beat the character. Noting that no Sheik has taken a full set from a known Meta Knight is not saying it will never happen.

So don't put words in our collective mouths.

 

[<π]

all fair.

 

[Renki]

C'mon guys, no need to get heated about it. I understand where you're coming from Ankoku, but please understand <3 is just trying to be passionate in his faith in Sheik. Granted, it is misplaced at times, but I digress.

I'm not sure how much further we can really go with this matchup discussion. It seems majority of us agree it's sort of around the 60-40/65-35 range, so that's a plus. It just feels like something's missing. Like, we aren't actually 'discussing' the matchup, y'know?


We know Sheik does pretty well when she can enforce her control of the stage and not be pushed to the ledge where she's fairly vulnerable. To start discussion, how do we enforce stage control against MK, and on what stages do you guys personally think we have a good chance of keeping that control intact? (I'm getting a "Duh, FD" feeling coming, but oh well)

Judo, TuTu (I would ask Ed, but I know how he plays) - How do you guys play the MK matchup? Where do you guys take MK on your CPs? Why?

 

[X-FACTOR]

Yo Sheiks! Wheres the Heart?

 

[Judo777]

C'mon guys, no need to get heated about it. I understand where you're coming from Ankoku, but please understand <3 is just trying to be passionate in his faith in Sheik. Granted, it is misplaced at times, but I digress.

I'm not sure how much further we can really go with this matchup discussion. It seems majority of us agree it's sort of around the 60-40/65-35 range, so that's a plus. It just feels like something's missing. Like, we aren't actually 'discussing' the matchup, y'know?


We know Sheik does pretty well when she can enforce her control of the stage and not be pushed to the ledge where she's fairly vulnerable. To start discussion, how do we enforce stage control against MK, and on what stages do you guys personally think we have a good chance of keeping that control intact? (I'm getting a "Duh, FD" feeling coming, but oh well)

Judo, TuTu (I would ask Ed, but I know how he plays) - How do you guys play the MK matchup? Where do you guys take MK on your CPs? Why?

I CP CS, Picto and FD depending on bans. Concerning stage control. If feel a whole lot of this MU is hitting MK before he can hit you (which btw is really freaking hard). MK has NO option before frame 2 (bar uair but he can't hit us with that in jab range) so up close jab is ur main option. The problem with jab is if MK's are smart they will pull a luigi and nair us out of our jab if we try to follow up so we have to be careful and read DI (another guessing game which sucks). The main goal of us being up close is to land our ftilt. Ftilt is our main shot at this MU. Everytime we land it its 30% about and it gives us about 4 hits in our decay list. MK IS one of the character that can reasonably be tilt locked about 3 times into a kill which is a huge swing in our favor. MK can't dair camp us thank goodness but its also harder to force MK to approach us with needles because he has multiple jumps.

Basically use those up close options run away and Needle camp as best you can, and punish the piss out of him for doing things hes not used to getting punished for. MK SHOULD be getting punished for nado EVERYTIME. Sheik IMO has the best nado defense/counter in the game below A tier (well maybe). Our shield is high which helps block it and we can punish it fairly well everytime. Also learn to DI out sheik is actually REALLY good at DIing up and out of the nado then dodging through it to punish. ALso try fo nair and fair to punish it as ur coming out cause that works sometimes.

Btw make ur grabs count. Our GR options are incredible. If you grab him with space GR > boost grab for more pummels and finish off with needles, or fair or bair (which i think should be learned) for extra damage. In the right spot a grab can be worth about 20% so use it well. I personally don't recommend using DACUS out of GR before kill percents but that is just my opinion.

 

[Zankoku]

C'mon guys, no need to get heated about it. I understand where you're coming from Ankoku, but please understand <3 is just trying to be passionate in his faith in Sheik. Granted, it is misplaced at times, but I digress.

I think I would be fine with passion if it weren't at the expense of others.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

This is quickly changing from a personal MU thread to a new MU discussion.

I don't think that's exactly a bad thing. I'll update the first post and do a writeup for MK this week.

So that's a 65:35 , I think we can agree with that. Except <3, but we can always revisit this later. Right now, I think we just need updated MU information.

So shall we move on to Snake then?

 

[-Mars-]

I love when Ankoku randomly comes through and gives people the d**k.

 

[phi1ny3]

idk, I'm trying to avoid using increments of 5s in between, and tbh between 60:40 and 70:30 I feel it's closer to 60:40.

lol on MK's CP stages though lol. Stupid brinstar + RC combo.

 

[Judo777]

idk, I'm trying to avoid using increments of 5s in between, and tbh between 60:40 and 70:30 I feel it's closer to 60:40.

lol on MK's CP stages though lol. Stupid brinstar + RC combo.

Don't forget Frigate!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Let's just ignore the whole xx:xx and use Strong Advantage, Advantage, Light Advantage, Even, Light Disadvantage, Disadvantage, Strong Disadvantage. MU ratios are really pretty useless when you think about it. If we take the old MU thread and drop the writeups, egad, we go 80:20 with Fox. For a new player who doesn't know about FTilt lock -> USmash, that's pretty meaningless.

 

[Zankoku]

A new player who doesn't know about ftilt lock has probably not even watched a Sheik in videos, and a new player who doesn't know that it goes into usmash probably doesn't have the reaction to realize that the opponent is directly above him. Besides, going on a 5-point scale rather than a 100-point one doesn't give things any more meaning to a new player.

 

[-Mars-]

I think there is an significant difference between 65-35 and 70-30. I don't know why there's this sudden trend on SWF to use terms like "light disadvantage" and such when ratios equate to the same thing while being a more pinpoint indicator of a matchup as a whole.

Also Diddy Kong MU discussion gets like 4 posts but soon as somebody posts the millionth MK MU discussion it gets like 3 pages lol.

 

[<π]

I'll just stay out of it.

Seek me out if you care about my opinions on match ups.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm fine with you talking about matchups, as long as you don't talk down to other people while you do it.

 

[phi1ny3]

I also feel the "hasn't taken out a major name" is a moot point, considering I haven't really heard of a sheik taking out Ally/Fatal (I haven't even seen Earth take out a top snake in his area except for like one match lol), ADHD/gnes/Felix, DEHF (The only good falco that's lost to a sheik somewhat recently is BluB) etc. Does that mean we've got 65:35 or worse MUs with them?

Not making an attack, but I'm just saying, there's probably more to this.

I think I want to take a second to look at the breakdown of arguably one of several tools that Sheik has a hard time with against MK: ftilt.

frame summary:
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 6
3rd hit on: 9
Soonest IASA frame: 41
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1 for all hits

1st attack shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -12

2nd and 3rd attacks shield advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23

MK's ftilt frame data. not that amazing.

with a move like ftilit the risk is worth what you can get. ftilts and jabs lead to big damage agianst MK. MK's ftilt doesn't really lead into much at any percent.

imo our biggest advantage over scenarios like this is to gtfo and reset to neutral or mid/far range. In several vids I've seen with good sheiks v. MK ftilt, they just always keep a "whiffing" space from MK by walking so that they keep all their options but rush in when they do a move that has relative commitment (key word RELATIVE, this isn't very slow lol) like MK ftilt, since it's decent on shield b/c of the guessing the other player has to do, but when whiffed MK has less leverage he can hold over the opponent because the opponent isn't locked in his shield.

@ <3: imo ftilt 1 and 3 are actually pretty scary, ftilt 3 leads to aerial ****, ftilt 1 lets mixups and grabs/smashes land easier. Either way, it's not a fun attack to deal with

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'd say 65:35 sounds about right.

Also, from what I can see, every single time MK uses Nado, you should be grabbing him afterwards unless you were hit by the nado. I personally would recommend, if possible, grab releasing him to get your shield back up a bit and a bit of extra damage on him and finishing with a DACUS.

I think we should move on to Snake then. I'll do a writeup this week for MK. I've got a pretty decent format decided on.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm probably alone in saying this MU is like 60:40 or worse. I hate hate HATE getting grabbed as sheik against snake.

The other problem with this MU is imo there's not a lot of great places to take him to outside of maybe Castle Siege. He does really well on neutrals and some sheik stages he probably does better in (like Halberd).

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I'm probably alone in saying this MU is like 60:40 or worse. I hate hate HATE getting grabbed as sheik against snake.

The other problem with this MU is imo there's not a lot of great places to take him to outside of maybe Castle Siege. He does really well on neutrals and some sheik stages he probably does better in (like Halberd).

55-45 Snake.

We really murder this guy! Only reason we lose is because he's super heavy and kills us low when he reads us right. That and sometimes we really neglect how good grenades are.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah I hear that grenades get negated in this MU, I must not be using needles enough. Probably because I just get scared senseless when he's a dash attack away, he's like us in punishment except he lives to 180 whereas us... lol

 

[Zankoku]

This matchup is kinda weird. I like smaller stages against campy Snakes because they have a tendency toward hiding behind their C4s and grenades, but I'd prefer larger stages otherwise to give me more time to react to the random DACUS attempts.