Sheik Match Up & Strategy Thread [3.6]

[BRUJO~]

why are you talking about the value of playing on WW for Ivy? I said nothing about that. KOing at 112% isn't that good, and you're certainly manipulating statistics into making it seem better than it is. Meh

@ _DarkLava in my experience, I've been able to survive on ww. The top platforms are where I try to recover to, ivy can normally only punish with bair there. Ivy kills early, but sheik can also kill with dthrow>usmash early.

 

[_DarkLava]

@cisyphus

why are you talking about the value of playing on WW for Ivy? I said nothing about that. KOing at 112% isn't that good, and you're certainly manipulating statistics into making it seem better than it is. Meh

The original comment I was replying to the well-written matchup on Ivy on the matchup thread, and more precisely counterpicking to WarioWare, and why I don't think it would be the greatest idea. I apologize if I offended you in my reply to you as it wasn't my intention to be confrontational. I was trying to add to the discussion in this thread. And no, I was not manipulating the percentages because it isn't difficult to test at what percentages a move kills. Granted most of those probably have an error of ±4% just to be on the safe side.

@BRUJO~
I replied to cisyphus above in a previous as to why I think that Battlefield would be a better option than WarioWare. Any thoughts? I feel as if WarioWare is easy for Ivy than it is for Sheik. And what about not trying to recover on a platform and just recover on stage? Dsmash and Fsmash can be DI'ed downward and lived at very high percents. Granted there is Usmash, but do you think it will come out before Sheik has a chance to react out of end lag on the upB?

 

[_DarkLava]

EDIT: Accidentally double posted. Whoops. Oh well.

 

[BRUJO~]

@cisyphus


The original comment I was replying to the well-written matchup on Ivy on the matchup thread, and more precisely counterpicking to WarioWare, and why I don't think it would be the greatest idea. I apologize if I offended you in my reply to you as it wasn't my intention to be confrontational. I was trying to add to the discussion in this thread. And no, I was not manipulating the percentages because it isn't difficult to test at what percentages a move kills. Granted most of those probably have an error of ±4% just to be on the safe side.

@BRUJO~
I replied to cisyphus above in a previous as to why I think that Battlefield would be a better option than WarioWare. Any thoughts? I feel as if WarioWare is easy for Ivy than it is for Sheik. And what about not trying to recover on a platform and just recover on stage? Dsmash and Fsmash can be DI'ed downward and lived at very high percents. Granted there is Usmash, but do you think it will come out before Sheik has a chance to react out of end lag on the upB?

First off, I appreciate the"well-written matchup on Ivy" comment

As for BF, you laid out some good points that I didn't consider fully. I still prefer WW because you have 3 different levels to recover to. Of course recovering to the stage is a good option, but having 3 mix up options plus the ledge is a benefit of WW over BF in my opinion. Plus, sheik has mad ladder combos on ivy on WW. Sheik can star ko really easily out of dtilt>uair>uair, or other similar combos. If I felt like these combos weren't working and I wasn't having too much problem getting back to the stage, I'd prefer BF, but most of the time I like WW more. Again, you raise good points, and depending on the dynamic of the battle/play styles of both chars I could see how BF would be a better pick.

 

[cisyphus]

That's my bad then. Guess I'm too self-centered to realize other conversations happen

Still, understand that the UpB is suuuuper situational. That's my point.

 

[BRUJO~]

@ _DarkLava and upsmash certainly is fast enough to punish the landing lag of sheik's recovery to the stage, I lost 2 stocks that way in a tournament match. Recovering to the stage is a good option at times, for sure, but the added platforms WW gives makes upsmash a lot less scary.

 

[BRUJO~]

That's my bad then. Guess I'm too self-centered to realize other conversations happen

Still, understand that the UpB is suuuuper situational. That's my point.

I agree with this. I'm just a lot more scared of Ivy's other options. UpB is a good move, but not good enough to deter me from taking her to WW

 

[BRUJO~]

I would also like to add that both of you @ _DarkLava and @ cisyphus seem to be knowledgable smashers, and cool community members. This is an enlightening conversation to be a part of

 

[KinGly]

Do you (or anyone else) have tps for practicing powershielding?

I'm a bit late here but I just took the spring out of my l button and am now power shielding half of falcos lasers in 20XX. it makes it so much easier if you are going to use the triggers.

 

[DethM]

How about Rob?

 

[KinGly]

How about Rob?

Ive played a few games with Drinkingingfood and talked the mu over a bit. Sheik beats rob in neutral by just shutting down his approach with tilts, and with bairm and needles, sheik is one of the few characters that can edgeuguard ROB efficiently. If I remember correctly DF said the mu was either 65:35 or 60:40 in Sheiks favor.

I've also talked to Umbreon a little bit about it over skype. Iirc he said it was either even or slightly advantagous for ROB, and he thinks ROB is one of the best characters in the game.

I gotta agree with DF on this one, partly cause L A B O Y S, but also because I could see what he was talking about when we played, and I'm not sure how much practice Umbreon has really invested into learning to fight ROB (not to knock him of course, just seems like hes much more comfortable with the melee characters and ROB is very different).

 

[BRUJO~]

An important thing about ROB is being able to time edgeguard needles well. If you can hit him out of his boosts, you can **** his recovery. But only if you time them right after the jump comes out.

 

[cisyphus]

I honestly can't think of that much that ROB has on Sheik outside of his punish game. Chain grabs into aerial combo strings makes it falcon-esque in that sense. His neutral is pretty solid, but Sheik definitely plays that better. I could see Umbreon being right, but I definitely would trust DrinkingFood's assessment a little more.

 

[Deleted member]

Ive played a few games with Drinkingingfood and talked the mu over a bit. Sheik beats rob in neutral by just shutting down his approach with tilts, and with bairm and needles, sheik is one of the few characters that can edgeuguard ROB efficiently. If I remember correctly DF said the mu was either 65:35 or 60:40 in Sheiks favor.

I've also talked to Umbreon a little bit about it over skype. Iirc he said it was either even or slightly advantagous for ROB, and he thinks ROB is one of the best characters in the game.

I gotta agree with DF on this one, partly cause L A B O Y S, but also because I could see what he was talking about when we played, and I'm not sure how much practice Umbreon has really invested into learning to fight ROB (not to knock him of course, just seems like hes much more comfortable with the melee characters and ROB is very different).

i'll try to clarify a bit. first needles dont shut down anyones neutral, needles are either aerial and then you dont stand 45 degrees below sheik or horizontal and the animation is hella laggy and you can just block. bair/fair wall is good as is SH nair reacting to rob boosting in towards you. tilts are super risky because they open you up to robs CC grab and subsequently his entire punish game. needle harassment and safe aerials are the way to go, but they make approaching tricky- but thats a two way street because sheik has super mediocre approach options as well, thats just how the neutral plays out in this particular MU (and say the sheik ditto).

i think the MU is firmly even. sheik wins her matches in a general way based on the simple formula of SH FF fade AC fairs > react and WD back > react, ideally until you can grab them and expand your punishment options. rob isnt particularly weak to WD back because his mediocre approaches discourage the movement that WD back takes advantage of (unless rob does high boost > nair/fair without a FF which is awful and he can either boost low > fair or FF the nair to make it safe on block when sheik does WD back. tldr do it correctly and its not an issue). i think sheik and rob are both some of the best chars in the game and i put both of them firmly into top tier.

im def more comfortable with melee chars and some other brawl chars that arent rob like wario ike MK etc. that said ive spent a good amount of time looking into the rob MU. theres a few real issues-

- sheik cant edge guard rob that well if he recovers high with 2 boosts and saves the 3rd to preserve his aerial options, particularly air dodge
- sheiks punishment game on rob is extremely limited, often reduced to throw > hit > hit again if they DId the previous hit poorly, or the aforementioned bair fair nair in neutral while attempting to wall him out, since this seems to be the crux of the MU (what DF refers to as "meaty aerials" you can simply make it a point to finesse around them and be much more savvy in the MU)
- rob combos and edge guards sheik back much more reliably
- sheik struggles with a good CC game, and rob has a godly CC game with his weight into a REALLY good CC grab (robs grabs are better than sheiks in this MU and sheiks grabs are usually godlike).
- to play around CC and resetting aerials in neutral all the time, sheik has to rely on her grabs to make up the diff in punishment margin, but sheiks grab are way limited vs robs physics
- same goes for kills, sheiks best kill setups are throw/dtilt > upair but both tend to be pretty obvious to DI out of. sheik will still get you sometimes because of human error but its way less reliable for sheik than her usual grab > do whatever you want combo

the short version is that neutral is surprisingly even or sheik wins slightly, but rob wins both aspects of the punish game. at mid level when neutral is more important sheik might win, and frankly mid level players overrate sheik anyway because shes just really easy to use against softer players. at top level its much closer when the rob is better at making defensive plays that reduce sheiks ability to regain margin in the MU. for example if you watch DF vs both sethlon and dizzy from aftershock he gets hella shield grabbed because he doesnt FF his boost aerials which is just incredibly unsafe. had this been played out tighter he may have won either of those sets. top level players fundamentally offer the opponents much fewer chances to make comebacks and this is what im considering when i say the MU is even.

 

[BRUJO~]

To switch topics, i know a lot about the marth match up in melee, and I play it pretty similarly in pm (but of course with more bthrow). Are there any differences you guys notice?

 

[DethM]

To switch topics, i know a lot about the marth match up in melee, and I play it pretty similarly in pm (but of course with more bthrow). Are there any differences you guys notice?

Sheik has more ways to deal with Marth's dd, such as her crawl.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik still loses to marth's DD actually but she wins on several other aspects so it ends up pretty even.

 

[BRUJO~]

sheik still loses to marth's DD actually but she wins on several other aspects so it ends up pretty even.

Aspects such as? Are there different ones than melee?

 

[Deleted member]

Aspects such as? Are there different ones than melee?

no not really, it's mostly the same

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Anyone have some input for the matchups in progress?

 

[KinGly]

Anyone have some input for the matchups in progress?

I hate to derail the Marth discussion, but I need to know everything I can about the Ganon matchup. I had some dude calling me out on Facebook wanting a $20 money match. I have no doubt I'm better than him and he's overestimating himself, but the way he went about it makes me want to absolutely destroy him.

 

[Maromi]

I hate to derail the Marth discussion, but I need to know everything I can about the Ganon matchup. I had some dude calling me out on Facebook wanting a $20 money match. I have no doubt I'm better than him and he's overestimating himself, but the way he went about it makes me want to absolutely destroy him.

camp needles, don't approach, wait for him to do something stupid, gimp

 

[KinGly]

camp needles, don't approach, wait for him to do something stupid, gimp

:'(
Ten minutes too late

 

[Deleted member]

I hate to derail the Marth discussion, but I need to know everything I can about the Ganon matchup. I had some dude calling me out on Facebook wanting a $20 money match. I have no doubt I'm better than him and he's overestimating himself, but the way he went about it makes me want to absolutely destroy him.

lol i'll play it for you, that MU is impossible

 

[Tarul]

Hey, does anyone have any tips for edge-guarding Ike? I know how to play the neutral and punish game, but when I get him off-stage, I don't know how to punish aether.

 

[BRUJO~]

Hey, does anyone have any tips for edge-guarding Ike? I know how to play the neutral and punish game, but when I get him off-stage, I don't know how to punish aether.

Needle him out of quickdraw and the starting frames of his up b. If you can be fast enough, go out and hit him with a fair/bair/nair before he can start up one of his recovery moves, because they have a relatively long start up time. Other than that, you're going to have to let him get back to the stage/ledge and punish his landing lag/laggy edge-get up moves.

Thats the theme in this matchup. Punish his laggy moves.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Updated the Mario sheet based on what I got from the Mario boards.

50:50 even (could sway depending on variables such as player level, stages)

Now if this were melee, I would be complaining about this MU. I would be talking about how braindead shieks combos are. I would be talking about how dumb her d throw is and how it leads into dumb kill set ups. Good thing its PM though LOL. Sheik has alot of the tool she had in melee as well as some brawl stuff. But Mario this time around is so much more of a better character. You have enough to take on sheik without feeling dirty.

Neutral:
Sheik IS going to want to camp alot with needles. Sheik also gets alot of mileage off of throws and is a important part of her gameplan. Sheik can chain grab mario till about mid percents. Even in this game sheik out spaces a good percentage of the cast with her Back air and f tilt. Most sheik's are going to want to needles camp of the bat. If sheik is trying to camp, camp with him. Pitch a tent, Start the fire and start roasting some smurs. Be fully commited to camping against shiek. Though Needles are a good camping tool, But honestly fireballs are alot more annoying than her needles(at least in PM). If shes trying to FH needle, he's trying to come down for a grab. I recommend FH Fireballs in this situation, Use them to make getting to yourself difficult and be put in a disadvantaged stage position. Sheik also likes to use F-tilt and D-tilt. His tilts is were sheiks combo game lies. At low percents CC Tilt to get a jab, or d-tilt. These options are some of mario's quickest pokes and can lead into a bunch of other options.

Always keep up the projectile pressure on sheik and play smart. Patients is key in this MU. Sheik will not approach much. Sheiks Dash attack is not safe on shield so always shield grab it. Sheik's Fair is actually safe on shield and could set up a serious frame trap, so be careful. Don't feel fored to approach, sheiks game is camping and being mindlessly aggressive will not help. Keep a cool head.

Sheik also has a serious edgeguard game so stay away from the edge. Staying in the middle of the stage makes the MU more difficult for Sheik. His back throw can be a kill set up with poor DI. Most sheiks will use other throws to through off your DI, then back throw hoping you mess up the DI. Just be very conscious of his throw animations and this becomes hard. Also i Sheiks has his back tuned towards the edge and has grabbed you, it very likely that sheik is going to back throw. Survival DI in that situation(which would be in towards the stage) would have been bad combo DI for the throw, leading into a free Fair and kill. Di out and away to avoid this.

Punish: Chain Grabs are a scary tool we have against sheik.. Once neutral is won Mario can really combo sheik well. he is a bit floaty but not enough to get out of combos early. CG works on the character till about mid percents and even after then their are solid conversion of D-throw. Down throw to F-air still kills. AS well as having more reliable pokes in this MU, punishing Sheik hard shouldn't be that difficult.

Edgeguarding: This is not as easy as it looks. Sheiks who can shino stall can be difficult to hit thanks to the invincible frames on the move. Grabbing the ledge usually blocks this option and forces them to recover on stage. Just follow up accordingly. A nice fair of the ledge can be a good one, since the Up b will have lag upon landing.

Recovery: Honestly you should be doing everything in your power to stay away from the edge. Though at some point you will be in a recovery situation. Always sweet spot the ledge. Sheik will be trying to gimp you with needles, though they are not nearly as annoying as melee. A well timed Up b can cancel out the needle, due to Up B's invincible frames. Sheik may try come in for the Fair of stage, but that's more of a read on your recovery. Save your jumps and always mix up your recovery. DO not down b recover near the stage. You will be a sitting duck.

What can we CC. F-tilt, D- tilt, pretty much anything at low percents. Just beware of a grab if they read your CCing. Always Jab after CC

Stages to pick: not battle field, PS2, maybe Ghz, not dreamland(its harder for you to kill while not really effecting sheik). Not WW or Distant planet(Camp needle setups)

 

[BRUJO~]

Anyone have some input for the matchups in progress?

Against spacies, nair out of sheild is huge for dealing with their pressure.

If you notice they are rushing you down with aerials (especialy nair and dair), start baiting it out. If you can bait out a shffl n/dair and wavedash back, you can punish with grab and start a tech chase.

If you bait a shffl'd aerial, they still can shine you as you go in for the grab. Take notice of their shine patterns, and punish them accordingly. For example, I play against a fox, and more often than not when he comes in with a nair, he is going to waveshine forward when he lands. If I bait out a nair, I don't punish the nair. I punish the waveshine forward.

Against falco and wolf, don't get laser locked (easier said than done). Be sure to use platform movement to avoid the lasers, and we get an incredible tool in crawl to deal with them if we are at long range. I'm not sure about grounded lasers, but you can crawl under sh lasers. Don't abuse this too much, but it is a tool to put in your arsenal against falco and wolf especially.

I'll try to add more soon

 

[BRUJO~]

I normally play fox, but I tend to go sheik against spacies. As long as you can tame their lasers and aerial approaches, you get huge punishes when you master the tech chase. Also, edgeguards? We got those. I shouldn't even have to explain how strong our gimps are against spacies.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I have a bit of data that I'm working on. Just refining a few things. See here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c5amLn0ne4OFvB3pdG1fHzx8J3OVqvsGijYjECG12fM/edit?usp=sharing

@ KingsGambit27 Does this chart still hold up?

 

[KingsGambit27]

@ KingsGambit27 Does this chart still hold up?

I have to redo the throw data, but the percentages for everything else, plus jab reset stuff (once I fill it all in) are current. Stuff highlighted in grey means its current.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Updated title. Carry on.

 

[Journal]

Updated title. Carry on.

Would it be better to first think about which of the described matchups still carry over and then port those over to a 3.6 thread and leave this a 3.5 thread? Some characters, like fox, were changed pretty significantly so the matchups are different.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Would it be better to first think about which of the described matchups still carry over and then port those over to a 3.6 thread and leave this a 3.5 thread? Some characters, like fox, were changed pretty significantly so the matchups are different.

We can update this as we go playing the patch.

 

[AlmightySo]

Hey so ive been getting d throw grabbed repeatedly as Game & Watch when a friend does boost grab d throw. I havent found the proper way to di it. Does anyone know the correct di?

 

[Getsafe]

Down throw chain grabs are almost always down + away regardless of character. With G&W though maybe you can DI upwards a bit and up B out of there?

 

[AlmightySo]

http://gfycat.com/HeavenlyObviousAdeliepenguin
This is 3.5 but its been working on me in 3.6. On the 2nd grab i di up a little and up b but sheik grab armors through it and now G&W has a frame 3 up b.

 

[Getsafe]

Well I don't know for sure so this is just speculation but maybe DI in and up hard? Not sure if GnW is floaty enough to get away with that. Otherwise your best bet is down+away and hope for a tech roll.

And obviously avoid getting grabbed. Throw out lots of bacon and tilts to make sheik respect your space, if you go for aerials with GnW make sure you SHFFL and aim to hit with the late part of the hitbox. It'll do less damage/knockback but you'll have more opportunities to follow up and it's less punishable on whiff and harder to call out with her faster moves

 

[Juushichi]

you might just be getting boost grabbed until she tosses you offstage lol.

sheik boost grab is godlike

 

[AlmightySo]

you might just be getting boost grabbed until she tosses you offstage lol.

sheik boost grab is godlike

Yea i talked to a couple of people. seems like i should take the grab the whole way. If i try to mix it up with no di and he catches me with upsmash i die at 67% lol.