Sheik Match Up & Strategy Thread [3.6]

AuraMaudeGone

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Messages
747
Location
New Jersey
I made this thread because the old one isn't as updated as we would want and I wanted to organize all the recent relevant info in one spot so everyone can easily find it. I'll be populating info from this forum and other forums as well. Feel free to PM and/or post any info you want seen here.

Completed Match Ups
:bowser2::falcon::diddy::dk2::fox::ganondorf:
:ike::ivysaur::marth::ness2::snake::lucario:

Match Ups in Progress
:charizard::falco::link2::mario2::gw::rob:
:roypm::sonic::squirtle::zelda::wolf:

Format is described below
Difficulty: How hard is the matchup? Terms and/or numbers acceptable.
Free
Easy
Even
Difficult
Very Difficult

Summary: What's the gist of this match up?
Stages:
Approach: [/B]How is the neutral played?
Punishes: What mistakes do you capitalize on and how?
What to Avoid: Things you shouldn't do and fall into
Extras: Cool things you might want to add that didn't fit above

:bowser2:
Difficulty: 70:30
Summary: Believe it or not, you can still chaingrab Bowser. They can try to DI away the Dthrow, but Bowser floats long enough to to just boost grab him, instead of JC grab. It's a very easy matchup for Sheik. Maybe not as easy in as it is in Melee but it's still close to unloseable, if you know what you're doing.

Stages:
Go to Dreamland, Smashville, Distant Planet, Norfair, Pokemon Stadium, Green Hill Zone, Final Destination

Honeslty any stage that allows you to move freely and is not small, is a good stage for Sheik against the King of Koopas. Just grab, grab, grab, grab, grab. And maybe a dash attack to pop them in the air.

Don't go to Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, WarioWare
Any small stage that gives Bowser complete control. A competent Bowser on a small stage is actual a very scary thing to deal with. It's still winnable, but it's harder than it would be. Bowser can kill Sheik insanely early on WarioWare and YS. And entire body takes up nearly half of the stage.
Approach: You should be approaching with movement and committing as minimally as possible looking for something with lag so that you can grab him. Needle camp and needle charge cancel camp. Force him to jump in or dash attack in and shield his approach / spot dodge his command grab.

Punishes: Grab. Fair bad approaches. Bowser's tech rolls are very apparent and should be reactable, but use boost grab to catch the far techs away. Get him close to a ledge and then get him offstage. If you want the mixup, Bthrow/Dthrow DACUS will kill at 110% on most stages. Get him to ~110% before the up smash.

What to Avoid: Being above Bowser and/or on platforms. If you're on a platform be smart about disengaging from them. Avoid rushing off of the ledge. Stay there and wait until you are comfortable enough to do something to come off. You have at least 3 ledge grabs/shino stalls until you absolutely have to come off. Another thing to avoid is having your back to the ledge without space to avoid the meat of his dash attack/dash grab/fair/etc mixup.

Extras: Bowser's best approaches are either wavelanding off platforms into his mixup or by dash attacking / dash grabbing in. Dash attack can be baited by needle cancelling into shield. Keep wary of this range. Dash grab is beaten by needling. At early percents, if you cannot get a regrab... hold shield. Bowsers are going to nair coming down to try to armor through and beat down. You will get easy regrabs from there.

Authors
— @ _DarkLava _DarkLava , @ Juushichi Juushichi , @Umbreon

:falcon:
Difficulty: 50:50
Summary:
This is a matchup very heavily centered around walling Falcon out in the neutral. Each character's ability to techchase the other. And effectively edgeguarding Falcon when he's offstage. Due to Falcon's amazing combo ability on Sheik, easy edgeguarding, great techchasing ability, and vice versa. And due to Falcon being much better in PM than Melee. I think this match up is Even.

Edgeguarding is crucial in this matchup. Falcon's recovery isn't as predictable as it is in Melee, because now he can use his side-B as a viable recovery mixup due to it being able to grab the ledge. This being said, a recovering Falcon can either be down right predictable (recovers below the stage) or not as predictable (recovery above the stage).

Falcon Above Stage
When he's above the stage, go out there. Reach for him. Reverse needle cancel and Bair him. Or Reverse aerial rush (RAR) into a Bair. Even if you miss and he falcon kick's downward trying to reach closer to the stage, you will still probably reach the stage before him depending on the height because he might end up below the stage. If he does manage to get back on stage, use the landing lag to Bthrow him. If he pops up at lower percents, Dsmash. If he pops up at very high percents, Fair. If he DI's away, that's even better, run out and Bair, Fair, or needle him. Sheik's Bair is an insanely powerful edgeguarding tool. Abuse the hell out of it. Rewind back to when Falcon was above the stage. He could also try and sideB, your Bair will cover that as well, as long as your foot is in his face.

Falcon Below Stage
This very simple. Just needle and grab ledge. Then spam Bairs. It will completely wall out Falcon's recovery, and almost guarantee a stock (unless you screw up).

The Neutral
When the match begins, immediately start charging needles. It will either bait an approach or you'll get a free set. If he doesn't approach Falcon will dash dance, and shffl Nairs constantly. Nair OoS is a very important concept to know with Sheik. Apply it here. Sheik's N-Air has 2f of startup, and it's active for 28f. It's a good OoS option for Falcon's pressure. A very good one. Also if Falcon isn't respecting your space, late Bairs, autocancelled fairs, but more importantly boost grabs are good moves to punish overextension. What's also important to keep in mind is dash dancing. It might not be as good as Falcon's but it still gets the job done. It can bait out bad approaches and punish it with a grab, which is crucial in the matchup. After you get a grab, even if you miss the tech chase, don't let Falcon have any space. Be on top of him. Sheik's Ftilt beats Falcon's Nairs so remember that.

And look for dash attacks when Falcon is at higher percents when see an opportunity. I cannot stress this enough. Sheik's gets so much off of fastfallers with a dash attack above maybe ~40%. It pops them up and you can follow up accordingly.

And needles. Needles, needles, needles.

Stages:
Go to Yoshi's Island, Fountain of Dreams, WarioWare

Small stages are your friend against Falcon. Give him less space to run circles around you. FoD is a very good stage against Falcon. You're best stage really. Your tilts go through the platforms, and you Usmash tips through most of the platform highers, and Dsmash is a good option to use when techchasing Falcon on one of the lower platforms because it goes straight through them if they are low enough. Be careful on Yoshi's and WarioWare, the blast zones maybe be smaller, but don't be above Falcon. His Uair has insane priority and can easily clip you through the platforms, so stay grounded. If you can pop Falcon to one of the platforms, you can react to the tech and Fair offstage for the edgeguarding opportunity.

Don't go to Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Dreamland

I never take Falcon to FD. It's too risky. Given Falcon's superior mobility options he has more control of the stage than Sheik as well. One grab, one Uair string, one Dair can end your stock, or put you pretty far behind in terms of percentage. This stage is probably a personal preference, though. Yoshi's Island is an annoying stage to play a good Falcon on. They will use the top platform to continue their combos. Honestly it's just ask risky as FD and you have other stages to go to. Why not Dreamland? Once again you have better stages to go to then one that allows Falcon to move freely and has platforms to allow him to continue Uair combos, and mix up his linear approach.

Approach: I'm not entirely sure about your approach options. They are pretty much nonexistent. Sheik isn't Fox, remember that, she can't really approach aggressively. There is no reason to approach in this matchup because Falcon will probably be all over you anyway. That being said, Falcon will approach with shffl'd Nairs into grabs. At ~60% (probably less) his Uairs will start comboing with each other and will almost always end with a knee, killing you. As a result, if you are on a stage with platforms, don't be over Falcon. Another thing to remember that makes approaching harder is that Falcon's Bair and Nair can effectively wall out Sheik.

Punishes: Punish Falcon with a grab whenever he makes a bad approach, you get so much off of one grab. Don't neglect it. Also use dash attack, it isn't a bad move in this matchup. Sheik can follow up with a lo of moves. Dash attack > Usmash. Dash attack > dash attack > Usmash. Dash attack > dash attack > Fair, etc. (you get the point). Also use your ftilts to set up into combos and beat his approaching Nairs. Lastly, whenever Falcon is offstage, that should be your stock. He should not be able to get back on. Bair, double jumped Bairs and Nairs, and needles are good edgeguarding options. Even Fairs.

What to Avoid: Getting grabbed, throwing out random shield grabs, getting Dair'd on stage, being offstage. Why is getting grabbed so bad? It leads to tech chase opportunities for Falcon. Getting grabbed by a good Falcon player can result in Sheik getting a lot of percent on her, or dying when grabbed at higher percents. Do not get grabbed. To piggyback off that, don't shield grab unless the aerial is poorly spaced. If you have the urge to shield grab an aerial, try to hold it back unless you know for absolute certain you'll get the grab because most likely Falcon will just cross you up with their aerial, and a whiffed grab can result in a hard a punish. Getting down aired on stage is one of the last things you want to happen. While you're floating in the air figuring out what you did wrong, a knee is already flying toward your face, or Uair > Uair > Knee, to carry you closer to the blastzones. Once again, once you are offstage it will be hell to get back on; keep that in mind and don't play very recklessly against Falcon.

Extras
Beware of Falcon's Uair. It's very good against Sheik.

Author — @ _DarkLava _DarkLava

:charizard:
Difficulty: Slight Advantage~Even
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Respect his poke range. He has a farther reach than you and can full take advantage of that. Proceed with caution during his recovery frames and also needles.
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Being above him, over extending, challenging his aerial approaches.
Extras

:dedede:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:diddy:
Difficulty: 50:50
Summary:
This matchup is all about not allowing Diddy to get stage control. Stay close to him. If he doesn't have a banana don' let him pull one. Be close enough so that if he does toss one out, you can punish him for it. The moment Diddy has control over a banana, many things about the matchup changes. Your approach changes and punishes, being a couple.

Diddy is also at the right falling speed so that you can tech chase, and chaingrab (at certain percents). If he correctly guesses the Dthrow instead of Bthrow and Di's accordingly he won't be able to double jump before he hits the ground, meaning you can tech chase, if he correctly guesses the throw.

Bananas are what makes this match up even and not in Sheik's favor. Diddy is all about stage control, so stay close and pressure him constantly, especially when he hasn't pulled a banana. And speaking of bananas, what to do with a banana when Diddy is not near it is up to you. If you're confident in your item handling ability, use it to your advantage (I recommend not doing this though), but how you handle the bananas not under Diddy's control are up to you.

Platform movement is also very important in this matchup. Very important. I can't stress this enough. The moment a banana is pulled a competent Diddy will have control over the lower portion of the stage. Platforms will help you traverse, without being shutdown by peanuts and bananas.

Edgeguarding Diddy is somewhat similar to edgeguarding Fox/Falco/Wolf. Fox and Falco, more so. When Diddy is direcly below the edge, grab ledge, drop down and do a rising nair. It has more priority and will intercept Diddy's upB. If he's at a slight angle down and away from the edge, use your needles. If it hits, then you can consider the stock to be yours. If it doesn't then grab ledge, drop and do a rising Nair to intercept his upB. If he's above edgeguarding, use Bair to intercept his overB. I do not recommend using Fair because if you mistime it slightly you can be kicked or latched on to.

Stages:
Go to WarioWare, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story
Stages with an abundance of platforms are you're best friend in this matchup. Do not underestimate Diddy's ability to have stage control. It's what he does. This being said, it's very important to go to stages with small surfaces so you can constantly be in his face and be a constant threat to him if he does attempt to pull a banana. When he does eventually pull one, however, use the platforms the stages offer to your advantage. It's also easier due to the fact that Diddy has really bad juggling capabilities for if he does hit you while you are on a platform.

Don't go to Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island, (Dreamland?)
Why not these stages? It's very easy for Diddy to just control these stages with his peanuts and bananas. It's big enough so that he can run away and toss a nanner out, as well. And they offer lackluster platforms to move around with. I put Dreamland on here because it's just too big of a stage to face Diddy on.

Approach: You will be approaching in this matchup, and the entire time Diddy will try to zone you and control the stage with bananas and peanuts. Approaching is easy if there is no banana in play. It becomes much harder the moment he has control over a banana, though. If there is a banana in play, use platforms to your advantage to move across the stage.

Punishes: Punish Diddy's down B whenever he tosses out a banana. This will most likely be the first thing they do every match. There is a significant amount of lag when he tosses out the nanner, if you can reach him they'll probably think you'll attack so just grab and go into a chaingrab or tech chase situation, depending on their DI. Now chances are you won't be able to reach the after their end lag on down B finishes, but this is still something you should try to punish at all times.

What to Avoid: A big no-no in this matchup is attacking an in-shield Diddy while he has a banana in hand. Diddy's OoS options are limited without a banana. Put one in his hand, and at higher percents it becomes suicide to attack him carelessly while he's in shield. This is because Diddy has the ability to glide toss his banana out of shield.

So take this scenario: You do a poorly spaced fair on Diddy's shield while he has a banana in hand. If you're at high percents, expect Diddy to glide toss the banana into you and then follow up immediately with an Fsmash or Dsmash, both probably killing you.

Extras:
Diddy's bananas do not disappear when he dies.

Diddy's fully charged upB does not result in a significant height difference then using it initially without charging. By this I mean that the amount Diddy falls cancels out with the height from the upB, thus resulting in all the same heights from using it initially all the way to using it full charged. They will all make Diddy reach the same height, relative to the stage. Granted, there still is a slight difference in height, but it is somewhat negligible.

Percents Chaingrabbing starts to work on Diddy:
Down throw:
No DI - 82% (but it does start to lead to Ftilt at early percents)
DI toward Sheik - 0%
DI away from Sheik - Never

Back Throw:
No DI - 0% (It is possible to chaingrab at 0% but IMO it's very difficult)
DI toward Sheik - 0%
DI away from Sheik - Never

When Diddy is fully laying on the ground, Sheik's first jab is to high to reach him. Her second jab will hit though. At 60% jab reset using Sheik's second jab stops working.

Jab reset using the first jab stops working at 49%.This means that jab reset after Dthrow and using the first jab stops working around %40.

Author — @ _DarkLava _DarkLava

:dk2:
Difficulty: 55:45 (Slightly favorable)

Summary:
Top Gear is a pretty good way to describe this matchup - both characters go from 0-to-death in 3.2 seconds. The DK player will use his massive limbs to outrange Sheik with d-tilts and bairs, all the while dash-dancing like a madman and charging Donkey Punch whenever he can. If he gets a grab, prepare to eat quite a bit of damage thanks to upairs, and/or even die from an extended edge-guard situation. However, all is not lost, as Sheik has an excellent shield game, a projectile, a good tech-chase against DK's horrible tech-rolls, and an easy edge guard. In many ways, you could consider this matchup to be a more polarized Falcon matchup: volatile, like a generic anti-hero. You're going to need nerves of steel (don't use your chain, though) for optimal patience and conversions.

Stages:
Generally, you want Medium size stages with no platforms. Platforms not only let DK extend his combos to absurd percentages, but also let him get quick kills of the top with Donkey punch. Big stages give DK space to dash dance and charge Donkey Punch. The no platforms give you more room to not only tech chase DK, but also prevent DK from landing when he recovers high.

Pick: Smashville, Greenhill Zone, Pokemon Stadium 2, Final Destination
These are flat stages,medium-ish stages where DK can't easily just run away and charge DK punch. Also, they allow for easy tech-chases, edge guards, while preventing DK from getting to dash-dance happy (Final Destination is an exception to the last point).

Eh Picks (You Decide!): Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams. Ever died off the top at 60%?
Welcome to Battlefield, aka "DK's Wild Ride to the Top Platform into a Donkey Punch." However, Battlefield is probably one of Sheik's best stages as well. Platforms lead to easy tech-chases, it's just big enough so that your speed matters but small enough so that your weak DD isn't an issue, it lets you use you projectiles, so on and so forth. Fountain of Dreams is a bit debatable as well, as the platforms screw up tech-chasing, and allow DK to cover the platforms with his Gym Bro arms. However, Fountain is also a great stage for Sheik because she can do the same, while also benefiting from platform mobility for movement purposes (when cornered).

Do Not Pick: Delphino's Secret, Distant Planet, Warioware
Basically, big stages. Big stages improve DK's neutral by giving him space to outmaneuver Sheik and charge Donkey Punch. The only benefit of these stages is that you can *technically* camp DK and live longer than usual. However, big stages give DK the option to recover high (DK has minimal landing lag), improving his survivability, but also provide DK the opportunity to trap Sheik in edgeguard loops that makes the extra survival that Sheik gains a Zimbabwe dollar - practically worthless. Warioware, while technically a small stage, has a fairly decently-sized main stage, which gives DK the space to move. The small boundaries and platform placement just mean that DK can combo you to death and kill you absurdly quickly, making this stage a big no-no.

Approach:
  • Be Patient and Move. You want to pick the right moment so that you can get past DK's Dwayne Johnson arms and great dash dance to get in close to do your attacks. DK's out of shield options are terrible (especially his spot-dodge) with the exception of up-b, but up-b is punishable on whiff and has a fairly small hitbox. Also, your attacks are significantly faster than DK's, with DK's faster ground option being jab at frame 3, tilts being frame 6-8 and punishable on whiff, and aerials being frames 6-7 and punishable (with the exception of bair, which is unfortunately auto-cancelable). Options include boost-grabs, dash attack (don't do this at low percents - he's a heavy), and jab/tilts.
  • Understand DK's objective. DK is a grappler - he wants to give you a big hug and then throw you around like a father does with his toddler. Thus, you should always be wary of the grab, and adapt accordingly, knowing that this is DK's ultimate objective.
    • Cargo up-throw puts you directly above DK. If he grabs you below 40-60%, he's going to up-throw you and get up-air strings til you can jump out around 40-60% or you get to ledge.
      • After this percentage, he can jump -> up-throw to get a follow-up with up-air
      • Cargo up-throw generally leads to Donkey Punch, so be wary.
    • Cargo side-throw mixes. You need to hold away from DK to avoid the fair/nair/bair follow-up. DK will generally do this when he needs to get a kill/ up-throw doesn't lead into anything
  • Needle, but be careful. Needles are a great way to build damage and force DK to approach. However, needles do give DK an opportunity to jump over the projectiles and bair into you, which you need to watch out for.
  • Space bairs/nairs. Your range might not be as big as DK's, but it's still pretty substantial. You can catch the edges of DK's movement with the aerials and also jump over his d-tilt.
  • Don't be afraid to shield. Shielding is great against most of DK's pokes in neutral (wavedash afterwards for punishes), and Sheik's excellent roll and spot-dodge mean that grabs aren't too big of a threat.
  • Watch out for his CC. Sheik has a bad time against CC, and DK eats Big Macs for breakfast (he's a heavy). You can deal with his CC by:
    • Aerial needle -> something
    • Dash grab
    • Downsmash
    • Spot-dodge
Punishes:
  • Grabs:
    • How to Tech Chase on Reaction:
      • Run forward and then wavedash before DK hits the ground. You want to be as close to him as possible, but must be standing still when he's about to hit the ground.
      • React for tech in-place or no-tech.
      • If above didn't happen, cover the role with a boost grab.
      • Repeat until you're worried that you'll drop the chase, you have a good combo setup, or you've racked enough damage to set up an edgeguard.
  • Edgeguard:
    • DK will either try to recover high on stage, or stall out and try and sweetspot ledge.
    • If he's going high:
      • Fair early so that he runs into the fair. Make sure to be slightly diagonally under him or above him as his up-b actually hits pretty far.
      • Don't be afraid to up-air if he goes over you. He is a heavy fast-faller, so you'll probably get follow-ups.
    • If he's going low:
      • Needles-> grab ledge work when he's below the stage.
      • Grab ledge -> bair if he's below you, hold edge if he's trying to sweetspot (or roll), aerial (up-air most probably) if he's trying to just get on the stage.
  • Dash attack only really leads into things above 40%. Don't do dash attacks at low percentages.
What to Avoid:
  • BEING IMPATIENT. This matchup is about 0-to-deaths, which means one bad move in neutral can be the end. Be calm, and don't just throw out attacks because you can. Be ready for some movement shenanigans from both sides.
  • Being above DK. DK's nair and up air are really good moves, and Sheik struggles hitting downwards.
  • Spamming needles. Needles make you a sitting duck, or a sitting ninja. They let DK get in. Use them, as having a projectile is an advantage, but remember that the DK will be looking for your needles as an opportunity to approach with AC bairs/well spaced d-tilts
  • Jumping out of up-air strings. Up-air autocancels. Resist the urge to immediately jump out, as you'll just take more damage.
  • Unsafe Shield Approaches. DK can grab you if you poorly space an f-tilt. His Schwarzenegger arms are huge. Be very careful when hitting his shield with a move. However, grabbing is generally safe because DK's spot-dodge is slower than getting anything to pass in Congress.
  • Teching Predictably. DK is actually pretty decent at pressuring you when you're on the ground. Down-b is good at catching tech-aways, and grab reaches very far. This isn't obviously including platform techs.

Extras:

  • DI cargo side-throw away. This way, he won't get a follow-up.
  • Learn to shield-drop. This is a great way for you to get down from platforms when DK is punishing you from under
  • If you're bad at the side-throw mixup, generally assume that the DK player is throwing you away from the stage. This way, if you do get hit, you'll take the long route the blast zone.
  • Work on your Movement. You need to be confident mixing in your wavedashes with you dash-dance to extend your dash-dance and improve Sheik's mobility overall.
  • Don't feel pressured to approach because DK's charging Donkey Punch. DK's charge can be a bait for him to get better positioning. Instead, be patient and try and predict when he's going to do bad charges.
  • SDI his up-air strings. It might make the difference of taking one up-air less.
Cool Videos:
Author — @Tarul

:falco:
Difficulty: Even~Slight Difficulty
Summary:
Most important in this match up is constant pressure. With the insane combo capabilities of Falco you do not want him to get one hit on you. Grab him, keep him close, don't give him room to laser, and if he does reflect them back at him and close that gap, PRESSURE him. If he shooting you and advancing, get out of the way, because here comes a n-air or worse yet, a pillar shine. This is to be avoided with vigor. Don't give him an opportunity to attack. This match up requires a very aggressive Sheik. Needles will be important in this match but more for sake of keeping him off the stage. Sure, charge your needles and get that quick 18% also when you can but you want to always be close to Falco.

The main focus, if I haven't stressed it enough is Pressure. Pressure Falco with your aresenal of quick, high priority moves. A down throw into a tech chase down smash at low percentages is very effective. Mid percent tilt juggling into grabs are a must. Set up your f-airs accordingly and keep them varied with approach styles and jumping movements. The worse thing that can happen often does happen when playing against Falco, so don't give them the opportunity.
Stages:
As far as preferred stage selection I like a stage that is not large enough to allow Falco to fully utilize his lazers and is short enough to shorten the distance between each other. My favorite stages against Falco are Yoshi's Story and Battlefield. Yoshi's Story is perfect for quick kills with good needle edge guarding and a very high floor(for quicker deaths). Battlefield has different edges than most stages and makes Falco's Side-B comeback even more difficult to land.
Approach:
Lasers, Falco's lasers can make Sheik's approach a bit difficult. The only thing you can do about this is learn the timing of it and consistently power shield it. This will take time and practice but will be worth it for interrupting Falco's advances and shifting your advance in favor. After stunning Falco with his own laser, he is now open and ready for a quick attack. I prefer a quick crouch canceled down smash into tech punishing, but other avenues are more than open.

Jump canceled grabs, F-Airs, N-Airs and, yes even a Dash Attack could suffice in approaches to Falco. Yet it is important not to over use any of these for sake of stylistic variation. So it becomes important to focus on a quick, pressured game against Falco, not allowing him to get in his devastating combos.
Punishes:
Grab, down smash, F-Air, D-Throw, Needle, edge guard. These should be your main points of focus while playing Falco. Your needles become much more devastating against Falco as opposed to Fox due to his decreased get backs.
What to Avoid:
Extras

:fox:
Difficulty: Even~Slight Difficulty
Summary:
Your biggest advantage in this match up is your edge guarding. The ability for you win this match is based off your individual skill at getting fox off, and keeping him off.
The Beginning of the Match
The first 30-40% of the match can vary greatly by both parties. While Fox is in possession of moves that can rack up damage insanely quickly, as Sheik you have to make sure to limit these by use of your maneuvering and own moves. The first thing I like to start a match out with is trying to find a spot in where I can grab. Learn their tech patterns early as they will reward you down the road. If you are luck enough to read their tech (or lack their of) you can do a number of things. The charged up or down smash is always up to be used, or you can re-grab, jab, etc.

Once you have racked up some initial damage and maybe read a tech or two, it is important to keep moving and keep the pressure up. Down smashes, grabs, neutral airs, and forward airs are some of the moves that I use quite frequently trying to keep the fox in check and as humble as possible, but there are a great number of choices, depending on your individual style. Now it is time to chance getting the fox off the edge. This can be a number of ways, including a tilt/ running attack to forward air, down smash or grab. The following is essential for making the most of this situation.

Edge Guarding
The most important thing to do when a Fox is off the stage is to make sure that they stay off. While different players approach this situation with different styles, I think it is important to provide you with not only their styles and approaches, as well as my own based off of observations and personal experience.

The use of needles and the frequency of which they are used to stop the return of Fox to the stage is always up for dispute. It is important to use them as situation requires. Since the way a Fox can get back onto the stage is so varied, the ways you stop him from doing so will have to be equally creative. Provided, not every situation will call for needles. In fact, in some situations they would be completely counterproductive.

When Fox is above the stage the use of needles is obviously a case in which I personally find the use of needles counterproductive (unless stage permits its, discussed later). Yet in the case of neutral stages (YS, FoD,PS,BF,FD,DL) I think use of a neutral air in most cases is effective to bring them down. The neutral air is effective because it stays out so long and can be used if the fox is stalling and can interrupt his over b, if he should attempt to use it.

From there it is important to address your stage, if you find yourself on a small stage say YS (Melee), then you may wish to just land on the platform, assess the location of Fox then and get on the edge and use a back air, or perhaps use angled needles to knock the Fox further down and then get on the edge. From the edge your choices are a little less varied than when you were on the stage. The approach of the fox is critical for determining what move you are going to use. No need to be flashy, only efficient. If an edge hog is all that is needed, than stick with it. If you can tell the fox is going to make it back, figure out his angle and back air his face in. Or don't give him a chance and meet him down there and neutral air him and get back on the edge.

Figuring out how best to keep a Fox off of the stage is probably the most important offensive thing for a Sheik player to learn. I

Finishing the Match
This match should be a quick match either way. If the sheik wins, it is due to the fact that he got the Fox off of the stage at a relatively low percentage (40-70) and kept him off. It is going to be a quick match if the fox won because that means Sheik got combo ed to death and or shine spiked.

This match should be challenging for you, but it should also be a good learning experience during the match and over the course of your experience in playing in general. From this match you are going to learn a lot, mostly how fast and vicious a competent fox player can be. But you will also realize that you can take advantage of Fox through means of Sheik's own abilities. This all starts with learning how your specific fox moves, and how they approach you. Learn their patterns, as with all characters, and most importantly learn how they approach the stage when getting back. This match depends on it.
Stages:
Most Sheik's often will ban FD, and sometimes I can agree with them depending on the style of the fox they are fighting. If they are fighting against a Fox that does combos that seem to require large amounts of horizontal space (combo's involving large amounts of tilts, jabs, shines, re-grabs) than it is important to stay away from this stage. Not to mention the absolute dearth of platforms which seem to have become ever so important to Sheik players. Yet this stage is pretty good in some respects, if you can manage to keep enough pressure on the fox, the abilities of Sheik to guard these edges are great. I don't even have to mention the numerous videos of (KDJ, Plank, Drephen, Azen, and Tope) but I will, and their ability to guard the edge on this stage.

As for the other neutral stages, it really does depend on your personal preference and level of comfort. My favorite stage to play against Fox is YS (Melee). This may seem disadvantageous as Sheik's get back is some what limited, but I like the closeness of the stage. The walls of the stage are small so quick deaths will be the result for either party. The platforms are nice for quick aerials, and on a fun note, I love using wall jumps in get backs.

For counter pick stages, be creative use your personal sense on the match up. Look for what you are best at whether it be following techs, aerials, tilts etc.
Approach: See Punishes
Punishes:
Needles are an extremely important asset in achieving your advantage. Using them to set up the correct angle of approach of fox and limiting his return to the edge options, you will learn to place them and use them more effectively.

Down smash. Drephen recommended, proven by every Sheik player in the world. It works, it hits hard, and it does a good deal of damage. It can be used whenever you feel like it, but as you will learn some situations are better than others.

Grabbing. Again another Drephen favorite. Sheik's grab against Fox is important for getting him off the stage, combos and for generally racking up some damage.

Tilits. Up and forward tilt can be used to combo a Fox at mid range percentages and are extremely useful in combos.

DI'ing. Learn to do it well. Smash DI's and ASDI's are essential if you are going to survive a up throw to up air. Eventually (hopefully) you will master this technique.
What to Avoid:
Fox is faster than you, that means you can not really run from him, so don't. Be defensive but don't retreat. Keep up the pressure.

Shine to upsmash/(grab -> up air). You know it is going to happen in the match, but don't fall victim too often. Learn the spacing, and if worst comes to worst DI correctly to make sure that it doesn't lead into a 40+ percent combo.

Shine in general. It is vicious and quick. Although most Sheik players have a “feeling” for how they should come back against a Fox who is shine happy, or just smart with shine, it is indeed something to be weary of. Shine can be used for linking combos, quick kills, or set ups into countless other things.

Lasers are a quick way for fox to rack up damage if you are sitting back waiting for him to come to you. They can be used to rack up damage as you come back to the stage or as he makes his approach.
Extras

:ganondorf:
Difficulty: 65:35 (Easy)

Summary:
Ganondorf's going to try and space aerials and f-tilts so that he can try to kill you in 3 hits thanks to Sheik's awful recovery. Meanwhile, Sheik is going to abuse her speed and projectile to force Ganondorf to whiff, and then punish by combo'ing the crap out of him and then scoring an easy edgeguard. It's a very fast matchup, where single hits can generally lead to kills

Stages:
Try to take Ganondorf to big stages without platforms. Big stages prevent you from dying in 2 hits by improving your survivability without affecting the way Sheik kills (edgeguards). Platforms reduce Ganondorf's movement- Ganondorf relies heavily on wavelands to improve his movement. However, platforms do prevent you from being chaingrabbed, though this really shouldn't be a problem with proper spacing.

Pick: Norfair, Smashville, Final Destination, Distant Planet, Pokemon Stadium 2, Delphino Plaza
Do Not Pick: Warioware, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story (Melee).
These stages are all very small and cramped, which is bad because:
  1. Ganon can kill at obnoxiously low percents
  2. You don't have as much space to move around and zone him (The fair is scary)
  3. Ganon's great waveland now makes him very mobile
Personal Do Not Pick: Yoshi's Story (Brawl) I dislike this stage because of the weird angles (wavedashing to grab ledge has caused me many a death on this stage), the platform on top making it fairly difficult to predict how Ganon's going to move, and because Bushy Brows tends to be more helpful for Ganon than you.

Approach:
  • The key to this matchup is to bait and punish. Ganondorf is a slow clunky character that relies on getting big hits to quickly close out your stocks. This means that there are large holes in his game where you can punish. You can do this with dash-dance/wavedash -> grabs, dash-attacks, tilts, etc.
  • Needles are great at forcing Ganondorf to come to you. If the Ganondorf starts camping hard in the middle of the stage with fairs/f-tilts, don't be afraid to start charging needles to force him towards you and your fast moves
    • Aerial needles are great against G-dorf, so long as you do them sufficiently far enough away so that you don't get immediately up-air'd. Ganon really can't do anything except shield or roll away if he's in range, since his dash dance is tiny and his wavedash takes too long.
  • Bair and Nair are great spacing tools. Ganondorf will try to space just out-of-reach with f-tilts and fairs. Bair and nair give you some nice range, which will help you get a few hits on Ganondorf in neutral.
  • F-tilt is a good tool in neutral. F-tilt allows you to catch Ganondorf when he's close to you since it's fast and also because it's hits upwards. Since Ganondorfs will be short-hopping a bunch, f-tilt is great at clipping them.
Punishes:
  • Grab a lot. While Ganon has a great spot dodge, his other OoS options aren't so hot. Generally speaking, DD -> grab after a whiffed attack from Ganon can net you a lot
    • Ganon's tech roll is pretty bad. You should be able to cover it very easily with boost grabs. Dash attack if you mess up deciding if he's missed a tech (if he misses a tech, jab him)
    • Always try to end your combos with Ganon off stage. Don't try to up-smash/up-air him unless you know you can kill him/get a guaranteed followup
  • Get Ganon off stage. Ganon's recovery is pretty bad since it is linear, easily edge-hogged, and lacks distance depending on how he was hit; and Sheik's kit is awesome at punishing it.
    • Grab edge. Seriously. It works like 60% of the time.
    • Needles can snipe Ganon's double jump or when he's in float
    • Rising bair/nair are great if he's in that range where you can't tell if he's side-b'ing or up-b'ing
    • Don't be afraid to go out and hit him out of his float/ down-b if you're in range to do so with a bair. Just make sure that it's during the ending frames of up-b, so that you don't get spiked!
    • D-tilt can hit Ganon if you don't have enough time to grab edge, and he didn't perfectly sweet spot. It usually leads into a fair, which will generally kill.
Ganon is pretty easy to combo, generally speaking. Just do normal Sheik things, and don't be afraid to do dairs/falling up-airs if you ever feel fancy. It's pretty rewarding against the king of evil.

What to Avoid:
  • Avoid dash-attacking. Dash-attacks are easily avoidable thanks to shielding, as well as the fact that it doesn't hit above Sheik (where Ganondorf will generally be when you're blitzing him)
  • Don't get grabbed. Ganon has a nasty chaingrab on Sheik til 40%. However, his grab range is horrible, and you can completely avoid being grabbed by crouching. The main reason you're going to get grabbed is because you messed up a dash-attack, he spot-dodged your grab, or you messed up your aerial pressure. Honestly, the only acceptable reason out of these three reasons is that he spot-dodged your grab; the other 2 are probably technical flubs or something of the sort.
  • CC'ing is generally a bad idea. You can only really CC jab. Even then, it's not really worth risking, since getting hit by anything else will generally result in you getting hit by something more potent.
  • Respect Ganondorf's range and aerials.
    • F-tilt has crazy far reach, and does a lot of damage/knockback. It's got a fair amount of startup, so it is punishable if you're close.
    • Fair is very disjointed. The black part of the animation is actually the sweetspot of the hitbox, so remember that when you're trying to dance outside of his range.
    • Bair is very quick, and can wave-landed out of. Don't be surprised if he bairs your shield and then wavelands away before you can grab him.
    • Up air is strong, fast and potent. Avoid coming down on him with aerials. Aerial needles can work if he's at around a 45 degree angle to you.
    • Nair autocancels and leads into jab. A lot of Ganons will instinctively jab after nairing onto your shield. This is usually the easiest way to get a shield grab
    • Learn to SDI dair into the stage to tech it. This will prevent you from dying at like 30 from a random dair offstage.
Extras:

Honestly, there's not really that much to say about the matchup. Just make sure to respect the dorf's range and power, and then punish accordingly. Remember to be patient- Ganondorf wants you to rush into his loving arms. Don't be that Sheik.

Cool Videos:
Author — @Tarul

:popo:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:ike:
Difficulty: 60:40 (fairly easy)

Summary: Your needles and tilts beat out a significant portion of Ike's options. Ike is complete combo food, and Sheik can also edgeguard (comparatively) well. However, Ike excels at punishing Sheik when he finally gets the grab, thanks to nair planes and his strong edgeguard (aka grab ledge -> wait for Sheik's landing lag -> d-smash (f-tilt if there's not enough time) -> rinse and repeat until the Sheik learns to Sheilda or Ike messes up).

Stages:
Dos:
Pokemon Stadium 2, Fountain of Dreams, Smashville
Don'ts: Distant Planet, Warioware
Honestly, stages aren't a real issue in this matchup. Platforms help Sheik move around since her movement is not necessarily the most versatile, but also give Ike a way to avoid needles and close in on Sheik.
  • PS2 and Smashville are nice because Ike's QD recovery becomes less of an issue, and both offer platforms to trap Ike, get away, and even recover (in the case of Smashville). FoD is nice because your tilts and up-smash cover the platforms, and the small horizontal boundaries allow fair to kill early, while the high ceiling lets you survive longer from nair planes (sometimes)
  • Warioware means that you're going to die from a fair at like 40%. Also, the stage is tiny- meaning that Ike's huge sword controls a lot of space, and the multiple platforms and wall gives Ike's QD even more potency. Distant Planet means that Ike's going to live to absurd percentages thanks to the leaf, wall, and the large boundaries, QD is going to cover a lot of space and tech options, but you're still going to die at relatively the same rate thanks to your abysmal recovery. You do gain an improved neutral (Ike's sword becomes less of a threat when you have more space to utilize), but Ike just generally gains more.
Approach: DON'T DO IT, JOHNNY!
Ike doesn't really have the tools to approach in this matchup. His shield pressure is questionable, and QD is stopped by needles. The onus is on him to approach in the matchup- you can wall the swordsman out with needles and tilts in neutral.
  • Needles are key to this matchup. Needles stop Ike's traditional neutral options- QD and dash-dancing. This forces Ike to come to you. Ike is slow and heavy, so whiff-punishing is optimal. Mix up your ground needles and your aerial needles to make it harder to punish. This does not mean spam your needles- make sure that Ike's at a certain range where he can't easily punish you.
  • Abuse your frames. Your moves are faster than Ike. Ike's will end up trying to dash dance in closer quarters when they finally get near enough to you that you can't really use needles. In this case, f-tilt and jab are great ways to punish. Your jab is faster than Ike's, and f-tilt is only 1 frame slower. Both lead into great setups (grab/tilt/d-smash from jab, aerial from f-tilt)
  • Crouching is awesome.
    • Crouching allows you to duck under Ike's bair a lot of the times
    • You can CC Ike's jab 1 and 2 and respond with a tilt/jab/d-smash before his third jab comes out. He'll probably start jab->grabbing, but you can punish accordingly by spotdodging/tilting/etc
    • Ike's CC is pretty bad. Don't be afraid to d-tilt against the dude.
  • Bait and punish. Ike is slow and easy to punish. Try to get him to mess up his nair/fair spacing and punish with a JC/boost grab
  • Abuse Ike's terrible shield. Ike's shield is garbage, and he doesn't have very good OoS options. He's probably going to roll/spotdodge or wavedash. When Ike starts to stand in shield, this is your chance to capitalize. Punish with AC fairs -> jab/ aerial needle pressure/ crossup bairs to make him rue his decision. Ideally, you want to land a grab, so the aerials are there to force him to stay in shield until you can secure a grab
Punishes:
  • Grabbing is key in the matchup. Ike's tech rolls are garbage, meaning that tech-chasing the guy is very easy if you're not chain-grabbing him already due to bad DI. Boost grabs allow you to cover all of his roll options.
    • b-throw/d-throw -> DACUS is a good way to get kills if Ike's over 100% depending on the stage
  • Don't be afraid to shield. Ike can't really do anything against your shield (unless he's QD'ing- in that case, please don't shield). Nair and grab OoS are great options, though you can always spot dodge and roll if you're not entirely sure what he's doing. This is especially important if the Ike loves to nair-plane- nair is NOT safe on shield.
  • Punishing Ike's Recovery
    • Needles stop Ike from descending through the air with QD
      • Aerial needles can be used to intercept Ike when he's below you and trying to get to a wall.
      • RAR bair is a good way to hit Ike if he's close to the stage and trying to QD/just fall. It's much faster than Ike's Fair, and it has great range as well.
    • Aether below stage is very hard to punish. Generally, you should just give him ledge, and try to hit him as he's trying to regain stage control. Ike's ledgedash isn't invincible, his shield is bad, and his getup/roll aren't particularly noteworthy. By forcing him into the corner, Ike can't really do anything to you, while your fast frames and strong shield pressure allow you to continue hurting him.
      • If Ike's sword is just at-stage-level because he's trying to sweet spot, you can jump over the sword and time a fair so that the bottom part of the hitbox hits Ike when he rises to grab his sword. This will almost always result in a kill.
      • If Ike is not touching the wall and you're holding the edge, you can drop down quickly with invincibility to avoid being hit by his sword, and then jump -> bair/nair/reverse fair him. Up-b in a way to avoid getting hit by his next aether attempt, and then repeat the edgeguard until he dies.
  • Mix up your fairs/up-airs every now and then. Your opponents will generally DI for a fair after a tilt/d-air. If you throw in an up-air every now and then at higher percents, you can net a kill thanks to bad DI. After all, up-air is frame 4. Generally speaking, go for the fair, however, since it gives you stage control and gives you an edgeguarding opportunity.
  • Just do normal Sheik things. Ike's that juicy weight where everything seems to work.
What to Avoid:
Don't:

  • Get anxious and run into spaced bairs/fairs/nairs.
  • Get anxious and start dash-attacking like crazy. Dash attacks are great for sniping movement, but is very punishable...and more importantly, gives Ike the opportunity to grab you.
  • Get anxious and try to challenge Ike with an aerial while he's juggling you. Just get down to the ground moving directing yourself towards the ledge or air-dodging if necessary
  • Get anxious and do predictable/panic options while Ike's tech-chasing you. In theory, Ike should be able to cover all of your ground options. Just accept it, and try to mix up your rolls and even purposefully miss the tech to throw him off.
  • Get anxious. Seriously, this matchup is about maintaining your cool. You both combo each other to the next planet and back, and you will 0-to-death him on occasion and so will he. Don't let it get to your head.
Extras:
  • Below 20-30%, fair will lead into another fair. Just hold in.
  • You want to hold down and away when Ike tosses you off the stage when you're below 70-80%-ish. This prevents most fair follow-ups. Afterwards, up-and-away should do the trick.
  • In general, DI Ike's throws:
    • d-throw: down and away
    • up-throw: up and away
    • b-throw: down and away, but up and away works at higher percents
    • f-throw: read above comment
  • If Ike's fair is going to hit you because you can't jump out/steer yourself away from it (generally, you should be able to go under it or jump over it)
    • up-b if you're close enough to use your invincibility frames to get past it
    • Airdodge if you're close enough to the stage but don't have enough time to up-b. Hopefully, you'll grab the edge as you fall
    • If the above to options don't work, fair sometimes works if he doesn't space his fair properly. If fair won't work, sometimes nair will work (though this puts you in the nair's animation for a bunch of frames- not optimal). Most likely, you will get whacked. Sucks, but you've got to accept it. Hopefully, you didn't jump, so by holding up-and-in, you'll be able to survive the attack and actually recover and not get punished by your landing lag when you get back on stage.
  • Dair and up-smash are great at covering Ike's options when you're platform tech chasing.

    Links to cool sets:
  • Mew2King vs Ally (3.6) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD9vFjLRkkw
  • Vanz vs DJ Nintendo (3.5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrGRm5zVCR8
  • Hat vs SwagApocalypse (3.5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fl_3IVvqF4
Author — @Tarul

:ivysaur:
Difficulty: Easy (70:30)

Summary:
Edgeguard all day long. We'll talk more about that in the punishment section.. Sheik has a plethora of both combo and kill options in this MU, due to Ivy's weight making her combo food. At low percents Sheik has regrabs, at mid percents d and b throws set up perfectly for aerial combos. Needles are going to be your BFF against Ivy. As for what to look out for, Ivy does have some good spacing options in fair, B-Air, D-Tilt, and jab, but Sheik deals with these pretty easily.

Stages:
Go to Distant Planet, Norfair, Dream Land, Wario Ware
On each of these four, you can recover to the platforms. Ivy's B-Air off stage can cause problems if Sheik is forced to recover predictably, but the extra option the platforms provide make edgeguarding Sheik a lot more difficulty. On the flipside, the platforms don't help Ivy recover all too much. The tether is still going to have to go to the edge, which Sheik can punish hard. sometimes Ivy will be able to use D-Air to get to the platform if she's off stage high, but Sheik can hide under the platforms and punish with F-Air/B-Air/U-Air. Also, these stages are big enough that you can utilize needles. You can get far enough away from Ivy to negate her range and razor leaves with needles.

Stay away from Yoshi's Brawl, Green Hill Zone
Both of these stages are bad for Sheik in general imo. GHZ is small and the platform is small/not reliable for recovery. Yoshi's Brawl makes needles not viable in the neutral because the curve of the ground reduces needle range. Not to mention that stupid platform makes aerial needles almost unusable. Other than these two, I would normally ban either FD or Lylat depending on what is legal in the tourney/what I think the Ivy would be comfortable on.

Other things to note... Ivy can crouch under needles on the edges of Lylat and Yoshi's Melee. This is why I ban Lylat, besides the way the platforms block aerial needles. I tend to be okay with Yoshi's Melee because the platforms are good for recovering with Sheik. Both of these stages do give Sheik the opportunity to use the platforms for tech chasing with waveland grab or D-Air to continue combos, so keep that in mind.

As for starters, ban GHZ, hope for DL. Battlefield is okay because you can sometimes recover to platforms, PS2 is good because you can fully utilize needles, and Smashville is probably your second best option behind DL because you can (situationally) use the moving platform to get back to safety from off stage and you can really use needles effectively here. If FD is an option, ban it.

In general for this MU, just use the stages that you known are good for Sheik.

Neutral:
Needles, needles, needles. Ivy's razor leaf becomes essentially useless because one needle cancels it, and it doesn't take much more time for Sheik to charge up more than one needle. Ivy will have to approach you, because you can out camp her. Her best options for approaching are going to be RAR B-Air and D-Tilt, both of which you'll have to respect. The range on these are exceptional, so don't be afraid to shield and wavedash away. wd away, bait out attacks, use needles until you see an opening for one of your set ups, then combo that booty. This is core Sheik strategy anyway, but it's especially easy on Ivysaur.

Punishment:
Look for them to seed bomb at the wrong times. Most good Ivy's will know when to seed bomb and when not to, but at lower levels you'll find them throwing out the bomb at punishable times. Also, look for poorly spaced B-Air on your shield. A well-spaced B-Air on your shield is going to be tough to punish, but if she isn't hitting with the tip of the vine, you should be able to N-Air, grab, or wd>dtilt oos. If she N-Air your shield, 9 times out of 10 you will see an up tilt follow up. Wait until the up tilt comes after the N-Air, then you can punish.

Edge Guard. You should know as a Sheik player that you punish with grab, throw them off stage or combo into a fair that gets them off stage, then use N-Air/B-Air/needles to edgeguard. Against Ivy, you'll almost always want to get them off the stage and grab the ledge. Use needles to snipe the double jump/D-Air recovery if you want, but your real goal is going to be to grab that ledge before she tethers to it. Once you both are holding the ledge, Ivy will have to pop up and do that incredibly laggy jump back onto stage. If she DI's this forward onto the stage, you can ledge hop fair. At high/mid percents this should knock her all the way off the stage to the other side because she'll already be DI'ing forward. If she DI's back on the hop from tether, you can ledge hop B-Air and continue to edgeguard. This really should result in a kill every time unless the Ivy is at really low percent.
If you don't have time to grab the ledge, Ivy will often fair right in front of the stage and then drop down to ledge. Wait for the fair to come out and you can wd>D-Tilt>F-Air before she grabs the ledge.

Bait and punish should be a theme. You should know by now that smash fundamentals are more important than anything else for a Sheik player. Bait and punish with grab. Speaking of grabs, D-Throw and B-Throw set up for combos really really nicely against Ivy. Use D-Throw exclusively at low percents, you will always have a follow up. After about 30%, you can start the DI mix up. Weak hit of N-Air will let you follow up out of grab, but most of the time a fair will get them off stage and you'll be able to edgeguard from there. Plus, D-Throw>up smash is reliable (I think, though you may have to DACUS).

What to Avoid:
Ivy's U-Smash is deadly. The MU is one of the few where Sheik's aerial game has a lot of potential, but if Sheik is unsafe in the air, up smash can wreck you. Take note if you don't want to be a poor and pitiful soul.

And like I said before, D-Tilt and B-Air are going to out range most of Sheik's moves, so use needles well and know what to do oos based on how well the Ivy spaces these moves.

Extras:
Here is what Machiavelli (probably the best Ivy on the west coast) has to say in the Ivysaur thread on the matter....
"-This is probably one of Ivysaur's most difficult counters, as she seems to have all the tools necessary to cut away at Ivy's options. Needles are a key part of this match-up and do wonders against Ivysaur. Alone, they are able to out-camp Ivysaur, as it takes only one needle to cancel a razor leaf, and it is not difficult to fire more than one at a time. In all of their uses, needles will force a reaction out of Ivysaur, so be safe in whatever response you take. Ivysaur is very susceptible to Sheik's shield pressure, chain-grabs, and crouch-cancel game, so you should research them and learn methods of escaping each. Sheik is also more than equipped to edge-guard you. Take note of what moves Sheik uses to keep you from returning to stage and attempt to change up your timing with D-Airs, and your air attack defenses. Another small note to add is that Sheik has the ability to interrupt Ivysaur's up-B recovery with aerial needles. It is unlikely to kill you as long as you recover below a 45 degree angle, so you are shielded by the stage."

Good Ivy's will use U-Air as a movement mix up. If you notice this in a match, hide under platforms and punish it with a grab. If they are doing it off stage, they have to use their tether recovery, so just grab the ledge and wait.
Author — @ BRUJO~ BRUJO~

:jigglypuff:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:kirby2:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:link2:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:

I think your main tools here are crawl, ftilt/dtilt, nair/bair (for clanking projectiles if you're in the air as well as easy edgeguards), and dash attack/boost grab.

Crawl, when used in conjunction with short hops, shields, and spot dodges, should allow you to get past projectiles. Of course you have to use these carefully and correctly, but playing intelligently is just too much to cover in a quick post. If you do happen to be in the air, you can easily use nair/bair to clank any non-bomb projectiles.

When you finally get near him, you will only have a brief moment to act (unless you both know each other so well you can mindgame with empty hops/approaches/shields). If you are crouching/crawling, a dtilt is your best option. If you can get in close and you think he will be shielding, grab. This will give you a potential conversion depending on DI. If you are still a decent ways away from him (so you can act but his options are too slow), then it depends on whether you are dashing or not. If you are dashing and think he can get in a shield, boost grab. If he can't do anything, dash attack is your only conversion other than grab, and I like dash attack's followups better vs Link. Finally, if you are not dashing but are at the correct spacing for an ftilt but he cannot act, then do so to launch him for more ftilts (at low %) or a finisher (at high %). If he has time to shield or dodge while you are standing outside of grab range, you didn't actually get in during a vulnerable window. Try again. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

One thing I like to do is charge my needles whenever an enemy Link camps. If you can hit them with the needles enough times, the opponent will likely start approaching you, at which point it is easier to find a way through the projectiles. Remember his Hylian Shield will block the needles when he is standing or walking, but not running.
Punishes:
Learning to foxtrot and dash cancel into shield on reaction is really helpful against projectile camping. If he's far away, shield beats out all of his projectiles (including boomerang; once boomerang is shielded it loss its hitbox iirc) without worry of any approaches, given his relatively slow movement. When closer up, observe what he does and try reading any approaches or efforts to create more space with projectiles or defensive SHFFLing. As long as you react quick enough and position yourself well, needles can beat pretty much anything when close - you can needle projectiles aimed at you (whether grounded or aerial), and obv he'll just get hit if he throws out sword moves. So when up close, needles > land-cancel > boost grab is pretty safe, as with most characters lol. Even if he shields, if you had enough needles charged, he'll probably still be stuck in shield hitstun or whatever it's called.

Also, for those that don't know, if you anticipate a Link up-Bing oos and you're "within" the sword range (like...within the range of his sword disjoint while spinning), you only need to shield the first hit or something. The hitboxes for the remainder of the move are only on the tips of the sword, so you can just grab him out of it mid-animation. That also means WLing on stage and shielding an up-B edgeguard from Link before your invincibility runs out...should (?) be safe; haven't tried it myself, but if they're close enough to the edge then it should be doable.
What to Avoid:
I played a Link main for a few hours straight yesterday. Been playing with him since almost the beginning of 3.02 and have seen him improve and adapt to me in various occasions. I can tell you that the worst part of this matchup is Sheik's ability to chase link out of her throws.

My main issues with Link as Sheik:

1. Projectiles
2. Zair
3. Jabs
4. Nair/Bair

1. Projectiles:
Link's bomb and boomerang can be quite annoying if you don't know how to deal with them. In a nutshell, you want to be very aware of the bombs and want to either powershield or dodge the boomerang entirely as much as possible.

The way I cope with them is by tapping the shield against the bombs, which makes them bounce off me and not explode. I then either grab them and throw them back, or just let them land wherever they do.

How I deal with the boomerang is almost the same way. I tap the shield against the boomerang, so that it either returns or gets powershielded. If the Link is not cautious enough to NOT throw the boomerang horizontally while grounded, meaning he does it often, Sheik can just crawl under it. They will wise up and end up throwing it down at you or jumping and throwing it down. You can easily read this, and react accordingly. If you crawl under the boomerang and it goes past you, run at the Link and throw a boost grab, jump cancelled grab, dash attack, down smash, pivot grab, etc.

2. Zair:
Link's Zair will hurt in basically all percents. He has uair to follow up with, and in some percentages it true combos Sheik regardless of DI. Be mindful of it, and don't try to punish it out of shield every time he does it to you. He has next to no lag after doing Zair, so he can react to your attempt at punishing him and punish you back.

3. Jabs
His jabs will eat most options out of shield from Sheik, but require his full attention and very good reaction time. You can roll away from him, or if you're fast enough you can sh-nair out of shield. They will stun lock you into a grab if you get hit by both. Best you can do is crouch cancel them if you do get it, and retaliate with a dtilt before his grab comes out.

4. Nair/Bair
He can use nair to predict your up-b and hit you out of it when recovering. He can throw it out to eat your nair from above, and it has very very good priority over some of Sheik's moves. Bair has pretty good hitboxes as well, and will catch you off guard if you don't expect it, especially out of shield, since it is so quick.
Extras

:lucario:
Difficulty: Slight Disadvantage
Summary:
Sheik vs Lucario changed subtly due to 3.6b, but the impact is tremendous. Without her back-throw mix-up, you can't really threaten Lucario with 50-50 up-smash kills. With less of a fear of getting grabbed, this means your neutral game may falter because Lucario can shut-down most other approaches by simply holding "down".
yeah, its the same as the ganon MU basically. wall him out with fairs bairs needles until you can grab. stick to nair oos and respect that they can both have weird aggressive movement options and wall those out too. when you grab them you can combo forever. when you edge guard they should die. don't get hit.
Stages:
I included some of my personal favorite stages for the match-up. The qualities I looked for were recovery options, platforms, and enough room to play a comfortable neutral.
WarioWare: platforms and a flat wall allow for Sheik to wall jump to recover; also up-tilt reaches platforms

Distant Planet: wide stage, platforms above the ledge, and flat wall

Dreamland: wide stage, high ceiling (Sheik never kills off top), and platforms that Lucario cannot Up-
Smash through make this a great stage

Delfino's Secret: varying platform height so we can up-tilt or even up-smash on a down-throw to platform tech-chase; not to mention HUGE with flat walls. This may be her best stage once the meta develops

Fountain of Dreams: Melee classic; varying platform height, walls for wall-jumping, and a relatively high-ceiling

Smashville: Not the best choice once the platform is off-stage, but it may also help with recovery

Pokemon Stadium 2: Best neutral; wide room for running, platform​
Approach:
Crouch Cancelling
Lucario is a mid-to-high weight character with a mid-speed fast fall. This means he can crouch cancel launchers such as...
  • forward-tilt
  • jab
  • up-tilt
  • dash attack
...to 90+%. A good Lucario will punish your ground approaches by either tossing out a pre-emptive down-tilt to catch you mis-spacing, or, if they get hit, they'll crouch cancel and down-tilt. If you attempt to forward-air him while he is on the ground and he's at anything below 90%, you may eat a crouch-cancelled down-tilt-to-0-to-death.

Neutral Baiting
As you can probably guess, on the ground, Lucario is almost never vulnerable. I say almost because if he tosses out a laggy move such as forward-smash or side-b or dash attack and DOES NOT HIT YOU, you can go in and punish.

But how do you force a Lucario to whiff a laggy move? Never outright approach. I sometimes forget this, but a Lucario fears over-committing (moreso than other characters such as Fox, Falco, or Wolf) because Lucario does not have a lagless, get-out-of-jail free card. If Lucario is the mid-to-full stage length away, pressure with needles. This will get to them to think that they have to approach. At short-to-mid range, the neutral changes based on whether or not they have aura.

Short-To-Mid No Aura
If they do not have aura, their best approach move is dash-attack. Everything else is designed to intercept your approaches and fluidly blend into their combos. Dash-attack is relatively quick, and because it lasts a little long, he can catch you if spot-dodge it early and go into a combo.

You cannot out-prioritize dash-attach or overwhelm it with any of your moves. You must dash-dance and catch dash-attack with a pivot grab or spot-dodge late if you sense it coming. If you're confident, you can also jump in place. If you know that your opponent is fond of punishing landings with dash-attacks, then you can jump in place and as you're landing, bait their dash-attack (which you know is coming) and then double-jump to avoid their attack, and fast-fall into grab, forward-air, neutral air, or up-air (if you're ****ing fancy).

The problem with jumping in place is that if you do it often enough, a clever Lucario will say, "**** that, I'm not dumb" and simply approach with an aerial such as forward air, or stand outside of your range and forward-smash you.

Once you feel each other out and know each other's options, this exchange becomes a delicate balance of mixing up your baits (dash-dance pivot-grab, late spot-dodge, jump-in-place, intercepting fair for the oncoming aerial).

Short-To-Mid Yes Aura
Aura shuts-down almost all of your baiting tools. You cannot jump-bait the dash attack, because Lucario can approach with their down-B (Double Team?) and cancel it into a semi-invincible up-tilt that covers your first jump landing, and your double jump attempt in one wide swath. You can't even spot-dodge because up-tilt will catch it too. Your best hope is to read the approach and NOT be caught in shield, in dash-turn, or jumping.

As of my current matches, short-to-mid range neutral against a Lucario with aura boils down to a couple of scenarios and decisions.
  • They are at the very edges of mid-range, they will most likely Double Team and cancel it into up-tilt or dash-attack
  • The closer they are to you, the more likely they will dash-attack or forward-smash (depending on whether or not you are a jump-in-place antsy-pants)
A Lucario does not want to Double Team close to you because they will be vulnerable for 12 frames before invulnerability kicks-in (frames 13-24). IF they Double Team close to you, they lose the ability to crouch cancel, and this opens up your launchers and better punishes. To alleviate the risk, you'll see a Lucario dash in, tricking you into thinking they're not going to Double Team, then they'll dash out to the edges of mid-range and Double Team to dash-grab or up-tilt.

Understanding short-to-mid when a Lucario has aura is understanding your opponent and what they're likely to do. The biggest differences between Lucario players starts with Short-to-Mid and continues through to their combo Game
Punishes:
"What if I grab Lucario? You know, to avoid the crouch cancelling?" Well... you can down-throw, and if they DI away (as they ALWAYS SHOULD UNLESS THEY WANT AN UP-TILT TO UP-SMASH COMBO TO THE FACE), you can run after them, and then you'll have to read the tech chase. Luckily, you can tech chase Lucario to 60-70%. But you have to be able to react fast and get lucky. Find out what tech option is the hardest for you to react to and attempt to practice that. The tech chase I have the most trouble with is tech-in-place. Even if I get the read, I always miss the re-grab. In these scenarios, I opt for the up-smash to pop them up, up-tilt, then forward-air. You'll find that even though our grabs have been diminished, you may get your biggest gains in percent through them.

When punishing in neutral, or brash approaches (point-blank Double Team, incoming ExtremeSpeed, etc) I stick to forward-tilt. It has enough priority to actually stop a few of these aggressive approaches and the frames are in your favor if you start at the same time.

If the Lucario is above you, DO NOT jump into it. I forget this too, but Lucario's down-air can intercept most incoming attacks and it out-prioritizes almost everything you have. Lucario's down-air also has a deceptively wide hitbox. Unless you're going to punish a falling Lucario above the waist with a well-spaced back-air or a forward-air you're better off catching Lucario's landing. A common mind-game is to single hop once, bait out the down-air or follow their movement, and once they use it, forward-air, up-air or back-air.

Edge Guarding

Funnily enough, Sheik's aerials are her saving grace in the match-up, especially off-stage. Sheik's back-air is an amazing move with a great deal of priority that can threaten so much aerial space. Your goal in punishing is to push Lucario off-stage and then keep him off-stage until you can secure the kill. To get a Lucario off-stage, you can build off a grab, and then forward-throw him. So many people are conditioned to DI away on Sheik's down-throw that a quick forward-throw mix-up will send him flying further off-stage that they would expect. Once off-stage, you need to position yourself to best cover his recovery.

If he is recovering high, always have your back facing him and jump off once as he gets closer and let his *** know that you have a back-air that means business. The back-air is such a versatile move in this regards because it lasts long-enough to cover Double Team approaches, and it's fast and has a ton of priority so you can surprise the opponent and get hits when they think they're safe.

If he will be recovering above the horizontal, gauge at about what time he'll drift into a position that's parallel to you and unleash full needles. He'll most likely hit one or two and you can stack damage or hinder his recovery. The second you release the needles, your goal is to go to ledge and hold it. Periodically jumping off to refresh invincibility. Lucario's ExtremeSpeed can be maneuvered and directed to avoid your needle game, but you can always cover safe options for the Lucario by taking the ledge from him. And because ExtremeSpeed is actually quite slow and you can react to it, from the ledge you can pull back to release and immediately back-air.

If Lucario decides to Double Team through the horizontal and avoid your needles, or if he chooses to recover low, your job is to hold the ledge and not let him reach it. If you're far from the ledge, and he's still low, you should throw needles as you get closer to the ledge. This will stop his ExtremeSpeed and give you time to grab ledge. Never let go of the ledge unless you're very confident of what he'll do or how to stop him.

If you fear that you'll no longer have ledge invincibility, or you know that the Lucario is at the very limit of his reach to the ledge with ExtremeSpeed, this is your chance to say, "**** it!" and drop-off neutral air or back air. Both moves have long active frames and will push the Lucario away.

When edge-guarding, your goal is not to kill, it's to build damage. Sheik is an attrition character, through-and-through. She doesn't combo into kills as easily as she does in Melee; you need to peck and peck at your opponents until your launchers can pick 'em off their crouch-cancelling ***** so you can forward air them to death.
* Nair OoS is your friend. Lucario can cancel any normal attack into a special even if they hit your shield. For Lucarios that want to extend their combos, they'll cancel their normals into Aura Sphere and then cancel the Aura Sphere charge into something else. Or the Lucario will opt for a command grab (side-B).

Here is a common scenario for me. A Lucario approaches me from above and they hit my shield with down-air. Usually when I'm approached this way by anything that is not a spacie, I wait for the character to land next to me, and then I shield grab. What Lucarios can do to prevent this scenario is they can cancel the second hit of their Dair into command grab (side-B) and then proceed to combo me into the floor.

I can get out of this situation by opting for Nair OoS and interrupting the grab.

Lucarios sometimes even want you to shield one of their laggier such as F-Smash because upon hitting your shield, the risk involved in using that attack is significantly reduced. Sometimes when I approach Lucarios they'll toss out a rogue F-Smash to bait me into shielding it right at the edge of their spacing, and then they'll cancel the F-Smash into Down-B (Double Team?) and cross me up with either a pivot grab (because they are behind me) or they'll expend an Aura Charge to approach with Up-tilt or Down-tilt.

If I find myself in this situation where I get caught with a laggy attack and I happen to shield in time, if I Nair OoS I can sometimes cover when they cancel into Down-B. If they do not have an Aura Charge, and they still decide to cross me up with Down-B, and I predict this, I can wavedash OoS straight into the ground and down-smash. This will cover the cross up.

* Understand that you hold the advantage when Lucario is off-stage. Your needles can intercept a Lucario that attempts to recover low. Nair lasts long enough that if you jump off-stage and use it well before a Lucario recovers with Up-B, you can occupy space and push them to recover around you.

The best position for Lucario when they are recovering is when they are diagonally above you and they have an Aura Charge. They can cancel their Down-B into a high-priority Nair at full speed and nothing you can do will trade with it or stop it. If a Lucario is in the above situation, I jump up to bait them into preparing their Down-B cancel into Nair, and then I immediately fast fall and intercept with a pivot grab while dashing away from them or a down-smash if I'm at a low-percentage.

* Understand that crouch cancelling is the worst mechanic in the game that you can abuse too. Lucario will benefit from crouch-cancelling because they can take a jab, f-tilt, or falling nair at low percents, crouch cancel into d-tilt, and then combo you into oblivion. This just means you have to grab more. And if you are at a low percent (<30) you can crouch cancel Lucario's Dash Attack into Grab. If you feel the spacing is wrong for a grab, crouch cancel into down-tilt and set them up. I don't recommend doing this often though, as your down-tilt can be crouch cancelled by Lucario up to and around 50% and you'll be combo'd in response.
What to Avoid:
Lucario must have the most impressive combo game of any character in Project M. He can combo floaties just as well as he can combo heavier characters and fast-fallers. He can combo off a recovery, combo off a shield-****, and combo out-of-shield. All he needs is one stray hit on you or your shield.

So what do you do?

Well... you slowly convince yourself that the best reason to play against Lucario with Sheik is that it encourages you to practice SDI more than most match-ups. Successfully SDI-ing the Aura Sphere Cancels, forward-air chains, and down-air gimps will lead to optimal positioning and help you lessen the pain that is Lucario's combo game.

Here's a list of moves and the situations they may be used in, and the best way you can SDI them if you are getting hit :
  • Dash Attack (late hit) -> Up and Away
  • Dash Attack (early) -> Inside or Down
  • Aura Sphere Cancels -> Up
  • ExtremeSpeed -> In and Up
  • Forward Air -> Up and Away
  • Down Air (off ledge) -> Down and In
  • Up-Smash -> Down and Away
  • Up-Tilt -> Up and Away
  • Down-Tilt (low percents, <18%) -> Down and In (tech or crouch cancel grab)
  • Down-Tilt (high percents, >18%) -> Up and Away
  • Forward-Tilt -> Away
  • Jab -> Up and Away
In addition to SDI-ing, you have to understand combo DI. Here's a list of moves and situations and what direction you should Combo DI in:
  • Dash Attack -> Up and Away
  • Aura Sphere Cancels -> Down and Away or Down and In (when hitbox is reversed)
  • ExtremeSpeed -> go into it
  • Forward Air -> Slightly Up and Away
  • Down Air -> Up and Away
  • Up-Smash -> Down and In
  • Up-Tilt -> Up and Away
  • Down-Tilt -> Away
  • Up-Throw -> In
  • Down-Throw -> Away
  • Forward-Throw -> In
If you're hit on shield, it's scary because Lucario can cancel into another upper-tier move or straight into a special. What you'll see is many Lucarios attempt to cancel into aura sphere and then cancel the aura sphere into whatever they want. Because of Sheik's weight Lucario can up-smash and cancel after the first hit up-smash into Aura Sphere and repeat the process. This is a confusing chain because you think you want to SDI the Aura Sphere when in actually you'll want to ASDI with the C-Stick away and Combo DI with the control stick down and away.

I've found that I can actually jump out of hitstun sooner than I originally thought possible because I think psychologically I've developed a block that lets me think I should get combo'd to 80% when I don't actually have to. I can jump out of some early combos and forward air instantaneously or fast fall neutral air. This should stop some of Lucario's follow-ups, especially if I've DI'd and SDI'd properly.

Getting punished hard is one of the most discouraging things about playing a high-level Lucario. You feel as if you can't play the game and you have no options and then you start playing like an idiot further leading to harder punishes. It's unfortunate that Sheik's punish game isn't up to snuff, but we can still do some damage.
Extras:
Lucario Frame Data
*Intercept with Jab, Forward-Tilt, Up-Tilt at later percentages (>70%). Jab is very very fast. I've been slowly training myself to shield less and jab incoming moves more. You should not be jabbing at all at lower percentages because the opponent can crouch cancel, but if you use it to sneak in a hit while the Lucario is in start-up frames, you may catch them SDI'ing horribly and your jab can lead into a Fair, Grab, or Down-Tilt.

Recently, instead of Dash Attacking, I've been playing around Lucario's space and dash-cancelling (dashing and then pressing down to stop the dash immediately) into forward tilt. If done with strict timing, you can even fox-trot into forward-tilt. I use this when I feel the Lucario is going to jump into a Down-B, or when they mis-space a dash attack or dash dance.
Authors — @Umbreon @ Cheeri-Oats Cheeri-Oats

:lucas:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:luigi2:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:mario2:
Difficulty: Even~Slight Disadvantage
Summary: This is a match up of who can control neutral the best. I suggest you keep your cool, stay patient and play footies to your best ability.

Stages: Battlefield, Distant Planet, Fountain of Dreams, Wario Ware.

Approach: Zone him out; Needles, Spaced B-Air, Spaced Tilts

Punishes: Powershield Fireballs/Pills, CC ->D-Tilt ->Grab, Grab him out of his long recovery moves, Chain Grabs until mid %.

What to Avoid: Being too aggressive, Cape, Getting Grabbed, Losing the zone war, Getting mixed up by his recovery offstage.

Extras: Baiting out his Cape is a useful mind trick to condition into Mario players. Try getting him in the habit of caping a lot with single needles. You can punish this with loaded Needle Storm during the recovery frames of his cape for a free 18% damage.
Also, if you're into power shielding Fireballs/Pills I suggest doing this in close range. Powershielding his projectiles at mid range will most likely result in Mario caping them back at you and I doubt most people have the reaction time to power shield it back. Reflecting them at long range is not worth your time, just crawl, empty hop or clank them.
Also, when you get grabbed, try not to DI super far left or right. That's a free regrab or a free techchase into F-Smash at low~mid %. DI Up or inwards.

:marth:
Difficulty: 50:50 - Even

Summary: This match up is all about GRABS. Who can grab who the most and follow up on it, wins. Marth upthrow is a very powerful move against Sheik. But Sheik's Dthrow and Bthrow is very good moves to Marth. Sheik can be juggled easily because she has hell trying to get back to the ground. But, Sheik can punish and juggle Marth really well. A poorly spaced Fair from Marth can result in dthrow to Fair. Dthrow to DACUS Usmash starts killing at ~130% for near certain. You might not even need to DACUS, if the DI on the throw is bad enough. Dthrow to dash attack works most of the time, and you can follow that up with a Fair.

Like most floaties, Sheik can chaingrab marth with her Bthrow and Dthrow if you guess the direction they are DI'ing. So attempt to chaingrab at lower percents.

Stages:
Go to Dreamland, Smashville, Distant Planet, Norfair(?)

Sheik's offensive game doesn't really change from stage to stage. She can't utilize platforms as well as Marth does, so it is more like trying to pick a stage that hinders Marth's performance. Any good Marth will grab ledge when Sheik is offstage, that being the case, Dreamland, Smashville, and Distant Planet make it hard for Marth to edgeguard Sheik due to the platforms that Sheik can recover onto. She can't get Fsmash'd as easily when she recovers onto the stage. The moving platform on Smashville makes life a lot easier for a Sheik trying to recover, as well.

Don't go to Yoshi's Story, WarioWare, Yoshi's Island

Sheik can get knocked offstage on Yoshi's Story and WarioWare so easily, and on these stages the blastzones are smaller, and Marth's Fmash can reach the bottom platforms. Because the blastzones are so small it can help or hinder you. You can get earlier kills kills with Fair. But because of how easy it is to Fsmash, Sheik when she recovers on stage, it's a good chance you'll die the moment your hit by one of these. He can use the platforms to juggle you, and you're to going to have a hell of a hard time getting your feet poked every two seconds if you're stuck on them. The platform on Yoshi's Island I have always found really annoying on

Fountain of Dreams?

I personally hate going to this stage vs Marth, it's cramping. And even though I can tilt through platforms, Marth's sword completely dominates on this level. I never take Marth to this stage. Though, I feel as if this is personal preference.

Final Destination
I think this is a pretty even stage, it might be slightly more advantageous to Marth, since there are no platforms for Sheik to recover to. Each character can juggle the other the moment one of them is in the air.

Approach: Marth will be dash dancing and looking for a grab and Dtilting, so the approach is a very difficult thing for Sheik. Needles are good for stopping their momentum. So are boost grabs for when they overextend. Dash attack for Sheik is very high risk, high reward. If you can get close enough to go through Marth if he shields, then by all means dash attack because of how much you can get off of popping Marth in the air. But if you miss, he'll juggle you like clown. Short hop nairs aren't too bad either at higher percents if you can space them well. Very well.

Punishes: Sheik's punish game consists of Fairs, Dthrows, and Bthrows. Anytime Marth misses anything, go in for a grab. Sheik gets too much off a grab to not abuse the hell out of it. If you see Marth carelessly jumping around dash attack through him and proceed to combo him. She can crouch cancel his untipped fair until 115% and tipped fair until ~80%. This can allow you to punish poorly spaced Fairs with throws.

What to Avoid: Grabs, and getting knocked offstage, and overextending in the neutral. Marth combos Sheik for breakfast, he'll utilize platforms to continue his combos. Additionally, they have an easy time edgeguaring Sheik, as they can just grab ledge and wait for you to recover back on stage.

Extras:
If Marth is off an below the stage (which he will most likely be), use your needles to hinder his recovery.
Jab reset on Marth stops working at 30%.

Author — @ _DarkLava _DarkLava

:metaknight:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
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Last edited:

AuraMaudeGone

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Messages
747
Location
New Jersey
:mewtwopm:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:gw:
Difficulty: Even~Slight Advantage
Summary:
Stages:
Pokemon Stadium, Smashville, Final Destination, DreamLand. Avoid Small Stages
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Getting CC'ed, Grabbed
Extras

:ness2:
Difficulty: 55:45 (Slightly favorable)

Summary:
Sheik's CC game allows for Sheik to capitalize on Ness' poor neutral, her grabs lead to easy follow-ups and combos, and she has great edgeguards against the little boy. However, Ness has disjoints (something Sheik hates), has a good dash dance and aerial mobility, and is notorious for combos, which are especially strong against Sheik.

Stages:
Stages are more personal preference in this matchup than anything else. Do you win neutral and struggle with edgeguarding? Take Ness to a small stage. Do you want to focus on edgeguarding? Take Ness to a large stage so that you can live a while without affecting your kill potential

Pick: Yoshi's Story (Brawl), Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville. Ness players hate Yoshi's Story (Brawl) since the stage isn't great for PK fires/ down-b movement thanks to the positioning of the top platform, and Bushy-brows can mess up up-b. The other stages are generally flat to prevent Ness from platform-cancelling his up-b, while still allowing you to escape his chain-grabs/combos.

Do Not Pick: Distant Planet, Delphino's Secret, Dreamland. You're gonna have a bad time if you pick these stages. While Ness' recovery isn't great (read: it's bad), it's not easy to gimp in the traditional sense. You can keep hitting him so that he never lands, but it's hard to make him not reach the stage unless he drops below the stage for whatever reason. Also, these stages have multiple ways for Ness to recover thanks to numerous platforms for landing/platform canceling.

Approach:
  • Bait and punish. All of Ness' moves have an irritating amount of disjoint. Instead, try to punish Ness when he lands/whiffs or by CC'ing. Ness has really 4 main approach options. These are:
    • Dash attack (You can easily shield grab him out of this, and it's also CC'able at certain percentages)
    • Double-jump Cancelled (DJC) Fair (You can nair out of shield to punish him, or CC it. If you he starts d-tilting you, you can shield DI the d-tilts away and then short-hop fair to punish)
    • PK Fire (You can literally shield this on reaction. Wave-dash out of shield to punish his epoch of landing lag)
    • YOLO grab (It's actually very fast, but you can just dodge it and punish his landing lag.)
  • Aerial needles are pretty useful if he starts dash-dancing. It's a great way to pin him down and get in
  • Use your movement to help you space. Don't try to grab too much in neutral unless you're punishing a whiff. Ness gets more off a grab than you do, and missing a grab gives Ness a chance to grab. Instead, play a spacing war against Ness with footsies and aerial placement.
    • Bair and Nair are great if you're playing the spacing war. Bair and nair give you the reach you need to pierce Ness' movement, while keeping you out of harm's way.
  • Don't be afraid to CC. CC dsmash is a great way to get Ness off you if his attacks connect, and CC d-tilt leads to nice follow-ups (watch out for dair and nair though). Just remember to keep an eye for his bair- it's essentially the poor, stupid boy's Falcon knee.
    • Side-note: Ness' CC isn't particularly noteworthy. D-tilt serves as a ghetto multihit move that's more a "get off me" option than anything else. Just watch out for the patented d-tilt -> f-smash. It sounds stupid, but works. On occasion. D-smash, on the other hand, hits behind Ness first before it actually hits in front of him (lol).
Punishes:
  • Grabs:
    • Avoid throwing these out wrecklessly. Ness can punish them with well placed magnet reverses -> bair, or just dodge it with his decent dash dance and then punish with his own more deadly grab.
    • Ness has a pretty bad tech-roll, so it shouldn't be hard to tech chase him with boost grabs and such.
    • DACUS can kill if he DIs poorly past 100-120% depending on the stage
    • Your main priority should be to get Ness off-stage to begin an extended edgeguard.
  • The Extended Edgeguard
    • The Ness edgeguard requires a lot of awareness and active thinking. DO NOT charge needles on the edge unless he's around the magnifying glass area. You want to use all the time that you can to optimally position yourself for the upcoming recovery. If done properly, Ness shouldn't be able to make it to the stage if he ever has to PK Thunder 2. However, if done poorly, it can make you take 25% or cause death and a gfycat.
    • DO NOT LET NESS LAND. The main idea of this is that Ness will keep having to PK Thunder 2 because you keep knocking him off stage slightly. Think of this as the tennis game you have to play with Ganon in Ocarina of Time. Except with the kid who was picked last for kickball.
    • Ness players will generally try to recover high against you.
      • If the player is close enough to the stage that you can jump towards him and fair. If he's a little too far for a fair, you can RAR bair to reach him. If he's in this position, he could have just airdodged and then drifted to grab ledge, most probably.
      • If you're not sure that you can make it in time, don't risk it. Ness gets slight invincibility frames when PK Thunder 2 connects with him, which means that you'll eat 25% and possibly die
      • If you hit Ness out of PK Thunder 2 and he connects with the bolt, it will cancel his momentum, and he'll be put into tumble. Return to the stage, and prepare for the next edgeguard.
      • Do not attempt to hit Ness if you're unsure if you can make it to him. PK Thunder 2 gives him invincibility frames from frames 1-7 when it connects, so you'll just eat 25%.
    • If he's below you, just needle. If your aim's good, you'll hit the bolt. If it's just alright, you'll hit Ness, and have an opportunity to do it again. Just don't forget to grab ledge if he's far enough away!
    • If he's out of reach (which he probably should be if he knows the matchup), prepare to intercept him during his flight path.
      • Think Fox, except slower, invincible during frames 1-7, and the thunderbolt shows you exactly where he's going. Remember, most Ness players will try to platform cancel or sweet spot the ledge.
      • Get there, and space a sweet spot bair. I'd avoid using a fair, since his speed slows down during his trajectory, which means that you might accidentally get hit. Nair is workable, but you'll most likely trade.
    • Rinse and repeat til Ness is dead. It takes a while, but if executed properly, Ness shouldn't be able to do anything about it. Alternatively, you could just take him to a smaller stage, and then grab/tilt -> up-smash or f-air.
What to Avoid:
  • Avoid charging needles on the ground or air when he's pressuring you with magnet movement. Magnet can hit you when you're above Ness aerial-needle-charging, and then confirm into an aerial. Magnet can be b-reversed to lead into a bair to punish grounded needle charging
  • Do not try to contest his aerial moves (including magnet). Despite the fact that they all seem very weak, they're still disjointed, and thus will win the trades. Just accept it, and try to attack him during his holes. Magnet has a fairly large window after it activates when you can hit him, and you can always punish with fair/bair/nair.
  • Be careful throwing out moves. Badly spaced moves can lead to a grab/DJC bair, which usually leads to devastating combos/edgeguards

Extras:

  • Always DI his d-throw down and away. It will most likely lead into a fair, but the other DIs will lead into up-air juggles or his deadly bair. The fair is annoying, but it won't kill you.
  • Start SDI'ing. SDI can get you out of PK Fire, up-air juggles, and a lot of his multi-hit moves.
  • If you're struggling against PK fire and don't know how to SDI, press down on the control stick, press the shield button, and hold the c-stick in a direction. This will cause you to buffer a roll, which will get you out of it. This is technically not optimal, since you can actually punish an overly zealous Ness if you get out of PK Fire before he arrives, but SDI'ing is sometimes difficult.
  • Mix up your recoveries. Ness has a fairly hard time punishing Sheik's recovery since his double jump is so slow (meaning that he can't always just hold edge and then punish the landing lag). He will, more than likely, make an educated guess based on where you're positioned, so make sure to mix up where you land to punish Ness' who leave edge too early.
  • However, be careful of Ness' dair. It's frame 4, and is a meteor, which usually spells Sheik's doom, since her horizontal recovery is terrible and her meteor canceling leaves a lot to be desired.
Cool Videos:
Author — @Tarul

:olimar:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:peach:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:pikachu2:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:pit:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras
:rob:
Difficulty: 60:40~50:50
Summary:
neutral is surprisingly even or sheik wins slightly, but rob wins both aspects of the punish game. at mid level when neutral is more important sheik might win, and frankly mid level players overrate sheik anyway because shes just really easy to use against softer players. at top level its much closer when the rob is better at making defensive plays that reduce sheiks ability to regain margin in the MU.
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras:
- sheik cant edge guard rob that well if he recovers high with 2 boosts and saves the 3rd to preserve his aerial options, particularly air dodge
- sheiks punishment game on rob is extremely limited, often reduced to throw > hit > hit again if they DId the previous hit poorly, or the aforementioned bair fair nair in neutral while attempting to wall him out, since this seems to be the crux of the MU (what DF refers to as "meaty aerials" you can simply make it a point to finesse around them and be much more savvy in the MU)
- rob combos and edge guards sheik back much more reliably
- sheik struggles with a good CC game, and rob has a godly CC game with his weight into a REALLY good CC grab (robs grabs are better than sheiks in this MU and sheiks grabs are usually godlike).
- to play around CC and resetting aerials in neutral all the time, sheik has to rely on her grabs to make up the diff in punishment margin, but sheiks grab are way limited vs robs physics
- same goes for kills, sheiks best kill setups are throw/dtilt > upair but both tend to be pretty obvious to DI out of. sheik will still get you sometimes because of human error but its way less reliable for sheik than her usual grab > do whatever you want combo

:roypm:
Difficulty: Even
Summary:
Stages:
Dreamland 64, Fountain of Dreams, Skyworld, BattleField
Approach:
Punishes:
Grabs, Tech Chase, L-Cancel/FFAC F-Air->Grab on Sheild/Spot Dodge
What to Avoid: Grabs, D-Tilt, Being directly above him, performing reckless Dash Attacks/Tilts
Extras

:samus2:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:sheik:
Difficulty:Even
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:snake:
Difficulty: 60:40—Somewhat easy
Summary:
Grab-heavy trap character with large amounts of projectiles and stage control capabilities. Extremely defensive with a massive punish game arsenal. Safe and patient play mitigates a lot of Snake's bite.
Stages: Snake doesn't like not having platforms. Yoshi's Brawl is absolute garbage for Snake. Green Hill Zone is a good choice for Sheik due to the higher ceiling and close sides. Avoid WarioWare, triangle platforms, and low ceilings.
Approach: Due to his powerful OoS options and strong neutral, Snake should be baited and punished as opposed to approached. Needle a lot to force an approach.
Punishes: Grab into DI mixup throws off of whiffed aerials. Use tilts to extend combos. Treat Snake as if he's Ganondorf for combos. Be prepared for extended edgeguard sequences.
What to Avoid: Be vigilant of Snake's mines, his C4s, his range, his grenades (shielded and thrown), and his OoS options. Don't sacrifice positioning too readily.
Extras: Frame 5 UpB OoS hitbox. Wavebounce grenade recovery mixups. Damage boosts via C4 and grenades for recovery. Investigate the properties of down throw, side B, and f-tilt 1 so that they do not catch you off guard. Using wall cling for edgeguards is interesting and worth investigating. Sheik/Zelda transformation detaches C4 sticks.
Videos:
Professor Pro vs. Jaden
Frootloop vs. Sago

Long Version:
for Snake. Here's a few things I need to point out about Snake:
- His aerials have quite a lot of range on them. I don't believe Sheik can shield grab Snake's neutral air or back air if they're executed properly (spacing, landing, and timing all come into play here).
- His grab is one of the longest in the game as well, and it punishes really hard because all of Snake's throws lead into a good position for Snake be it through techchase, u-throw combos, or f- or b-throw off stage or into a mine.
- His OoS options are plainly better than yours via frame 5 UpB which combos into everything. A common sequence is UpB cancel nair to grab, which leads into a free followup. Don't be sloppy around Snake's shield.
- Stage control is the main asset Snake has since it limits your movement and allows his sub-par movement to not be an issue. Pay attention to mines and C4s and grenades, as well as his up smash and up b—all of these are long-range hitboxes that will make you miserable.
- Grenades are fantastic pressure and anti-pressure tools: if your spacing on shield isn't perfect, you're gonna get hit, and if your combo tree isn't foolproof, you'll also get hit. Snake will trade with you for days.
- DACUS is incredibly fast and covers a lot of ground, making up for his otherwise slow ground game.
- A lot of Snake's moves have really surprising, disruptive qualities that goof up the ignorant. In particular, dair, nair, f-tilt1, down throw, and tranq.
- C4 works through shields. Yeah. Abandon your R button.

Snake loves to KO upward. It lets him plant new traps, reload tranquilizer, and get in proper stage position all at the same time. A common sequence will be:
1. C4 detonation for the KO
2. Reload tranq immediately if needed
3. plant a mine, charging if possible
4. DACUS away, charging it to reduce predictability
5. Possibly pull a grenade

The suggestion therefore is to not get stuck with C4 and to avoid up air and u-tilt finishes and to definitely not step on a mine. C4 can be removed by transforming, but this will give Snake time to punish you either before or after the transformation. If you haven't learned at least a little Zelda, I'd honestly suggest doing so, just to remove this option's consistency. That being said, Snake gets a lot off of grab, including guaranteed regrabs from 0 to 30%. Pay attention to how comfortable Snake is on platforms as well. There are combo trees that involve techchases onto the platforms and if the Snake is 100% competent you will lose your stock. This is due in part to down throw, which forces a no tech option. The platforms limit the distance Sheik can roll, making it very difficult to escape. The additional height of platforms also means that Snake has that much easier of a time KOing off the top (platforms tend to shave around 10% off of KO percentages). It's better to jump out of the combos if you can as Snake's jumps aren't incredibly high. Platforms techs are no sanctuary. Going off stage is extremely risky as well, given Snake's fantastic capacity for punishing Sheik's recovery (ledgehop C4, otherwise ledgejump waveland u-tilt or grab will KO. Snake can also plant a mine to cover your landing while holding ledge).

The way I've experienced Sheiks successfully approach the neutral is to battle me for stage control: destroy my landmines, force me into poorer situations, and NEEDLE NEEDLE NEEDLE. Needles can hit grenades when I throw them and blow me up. Needles can hit me while I'm planting a mine and stun me and blow me up. SH Needle can safely detonate mines (rolls and run up shield also works). Vigilance goes a long way in fighting Snake: once you stop running into mines and hitting shielded grenades, Snake needs to start approaching. Snake is slow in most ways, so dashdancing goes a long way. Bait out DACUS and use a quick, low-cooldown move to punish it (since the mortar lands shortly thereafter) or wait under platforms to mitigate that danger. Snake's air mobility is really bad (the worst, in fact) so once he commits to an aerial, you'll know exactly where it's landing. Outspace it and punish the landing.

The thing about Snake is that his combo weight is almost exactly the same to Ganondorf—meaning Sheik combos the piss out of him once she gets a tilt or grab. Your punishes should easily net you 50%+. As for recoveries, Snake is going to be sweetspotting most of the time, so I would recommend going about it in the same manner as you would edgeguard a Sheik: grab ledge and back air for days. Cypher will eat your needles. Be ready for damage boosts via grenades and C4 as well. Stage tech is the more common option, but Snake has a solid downward aerial defense via down air and C4 and wavebounce grenades so going over the stage is also possible. Another option would be to use walled stages to your advantage and wall cling to get the fair. Snake's cypher is very slow and punishable from the sides. Just be wary of grenades.
Author — @ cisyphus cisyphus

:sonic:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:

Nair, ftilt, bair, and jab are really good to interrupt his approach. His moves are both low priority and lacking disjoint. You need to OWN the ground and the stage. Only commit to the air if you have a platform to waveland and alter your movement, and also use it to needle safely. If you let him control the stage it will be very hard to get in. On each interaction you ideally want to try and 0 death him. Back throw is amazing to regrab him at low % even if they DI away.

At low % nair can lead into dtilt or ftilt into grab.

If you're curious about anything else I can go on.
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

So his recovery isn't nearly as good in 3.5 as it was in 3.0. He actually has very poor air mobility so he can't come in at diagonal angles. He either DIs up off a bair and then will likely try to jump over you and spin onto the stage, or goes low off of fair and has to spin to get close enough to the stage so he can either A. UpB and sweetspot or B. rise with an aerial onto the stage like fair or uair.

In the event that he goes high and you suspect he will recover high you can either bair him again because it beats out every move besides fair and bair, or fair him which does the same. It should be easy to react to unless he has a jump.

In the event he goes low he MUST get right along the wall of the stage to UpB because it does not go horizontal in the slightest. Always grab edge if he is coming from low and then use ledge invincibility to hit him with either a nair, bair, or reverse hitbox of fair if you can manage it. Getting used to using the invincibility is weird at first, but if you're playing Sheik it's something you should use for almost every MU anyways. Sometimes you can even get lazy and just drop and nair and he will either be KOd, gimped where UpB can't make it to the stage, or stage spiked. You want to use your aerial a little below the stage so he can't intercept with a rising aerial of his own. If you do it correctly he should be forced into your attack and won't survive.

There is a 3rd recovery scenario where he has a double jump and he's about even with the ledge where he can use homing attack to lock onto you, but it is incredibly risky because if it does not lock on to you or run into a wall he goes into special fall... You can make the homing attack not be able to detect you by using ledge invincibility. Because it's so risky I wouldn't expect the Sonic to try it too often.

:squirtle:
Difficulty:
Summary:

I live in Squirtle Hell, aka Michigan, where Dirtboy (#1 on Anther's Ladder and prospective PR) lives, along with Samn and secondary Squirtles Jawsome, Benji, and Frost. Lots of experience playing this—albeit as Snake—and all but Dirt and Frost say that Squirtle loses to Sheik, so it's really a matter of playing the matchup well. I equate Squirtle a lot to a grounded Melee Jigglypuff—you're not going to be comboing Squirtle a whole lot due to his weight and floatiness, and he's going to be playing super left-right bros a whole lot more than he's playing PM—bobbing and weaving with his really good dashdance options trying to bait moves out. You've got to play defensive and reactionary.

Squirtle's biggest boon is his movement. He will dashdance and shellshift (where he retreats into his shell) until you lose good spacing. Don't let that happen. I'd say platform camp with needles, because I think needles whiff when Squirtle shellshifts and also because your aerials tend to outrange Squirtle's. Once you get a read on how the Squirtle moves, cc down tilt or down smash can eat a lot of his approach options—grabbing him out of his movement is also really free.
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
As for edgeguarding, Squirtle's UpB covers directly in front of him, so needles won't work, as you've realized. You need to grab ledge, and you need to be quick about it so that your invincibility carries over long enough to protect you from up b—Shino Stall helps here. After that, you can ledgehop bair or nair with invincibility and reset the edgeguard. Alternatively, Squirtle lands with a large amount of lag, so you can punish it relatively freely—ledgehop dair is usually best to set up for a fair or uair. If they aren't sweetspotting, you can literally just crouch under the up b hitboxes and then d-tilt or f-tilt to launch them into a fair.
WD back f-tilt, grab, d-tilt, and down smash are your best options really. Possibly DACUS away since it's such a fast move? Grab will beat out side-b (and they can't change direction or jump so they're trapped essentially) whereas f-tilt and d-tilt have low-lying hitboxes that'll catch Squirtle. If you have a needle charge, SH needle cancel into the same options can work.
What to Avoid:
Extras:

- Sheik's DI mixups off of throws are really important here. If Squirtle DIs away, you have trouble getting any followups due to his floatiness, but if he DIs in, you can get an aerial or a u-smash.
- Watch out for Squirtle's down-tilt. For the longest time, I would get caught by this because it looks like a double down-tilt—really it's a multi-hit down tilt. CC both hits and then punish.
- Squirtles love to cross up with side-b into an aerial, so be wary of that as well. If you can, buffer spot dodge or roll to catch their landing after the aerial. Otherwise, just keep shield and let it go back to neutral.
- Squirtles I've played love techchasing with down smash since it catches tech in place and rolls in. Roll away and punish with boost grab if they do this. This is good in general because of Sheik's very long tech rolls.

:toonlink:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:warioc:
Difficulty:
Summary:

  • Make sure you play this matchup as a bait-and-punish. Needles force Wario to approach, and you can just grab him when he whiffs his approaches.
Stages:
Approach:
Punishes:

  • Generally, it's better to shield Wario's side-b. You can wavedash OoS to punish with really anything, and you can actually even just drop shield and just dash grab him if you can't wavedash OoS.
  • If Wario falls off the stage, he should be dead 60-70% of the time. His recovery is garbage. Needles snipe him if he goes low, and bair spaces him if he's falling to close to the stage/tries to recover with side-b
  • Spot dodges are the best way to punish grab-happy players. Just spot-dodge, and then grab yourself.
What to Avoid:
Extras

:wolf:
Difficulty: 50:50 - Even
Summary:
Stages:
Fountain of Dreams,
Approach: Standard procedure, Bait & Punish
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Shine, Lasers
Extras: Wolf Board Thread


:yoshi2:
Difficulty:
Summary:
Stage:
Approach:
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras

:zelda:
Difficulty: 55:45 | Even~Slight Advantage
Summary:
Stages:
Dreamland, Norfair, Distant Planet, Pokemon Stadium 2
Approach: Standard procedure, Bait & Punish
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Din's Fire baits, Getting grabbed, being above her
Extras

:zerosuitsamus:
Difficulty: 70:30 | Easy
Summary:
Stages:
Approach:
Standard procedure, Bait & Punish
Punishes:
What to Avoid:
Extras
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,975
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Sheik beats everyone, except for the chars she doesn't beat
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
i think you have a cool idea but you can simplify it further since a lot of sheiks tools are redundant and she generally loses to the same things from different characters. for example, it would be perfectly acceptable to lump fox falco wolf together, since sheik generally has a hard MU with all 3 for the same reasons- lack of a good conversion tool at low %, difficulty responding to normal forms of pressure via shines, and most of the punishment game being based around edge guards and reset style frame traps. its also much easier for your player base to learn ~10 MUs with small differences than it is to actually learn 41 raw MUs. similarly, i would group characters like ZSS/marth/sheik/roy and ganondorf/ike/CF and bowser/DDD/DK/charizard, etc. how you actually play against these characters is largely the same with ~10-20% deviation from the initial strategy on a per-character basis.
 

AuraMaudeGone

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Messages
747
Location
New Jersey
Nice feedback. I'll group up the similar match ups.
Edit: Also, I personally need advice on the Luigi match up
 
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cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Lumping the space animals together is just lulzy. It's like lumping FE characters together.

I'll write up some stuff on the Snake MU when I get a chance.
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
Lumping punish games together by weight-class seems reasonable, as is lumping edgeguard games by recovery type. Neutral games would be another category where similarities could be made concise. (Un)fortunately, no 2 characters should be the same in all 3 categories, which is why we have so many different MUs that need discussing.

Would you consider separating the MUs into 3 categories? One for combos, one for edgeguards, and one for neutral? Then you could likely split those into "fastfallers, semi-fastfallers, mid-lightweight, floaties, superfloaties", "lateral recovery, vertical recovery, hitbox-less recovery, tether, other", and "fast, slow, projectiles, disjoints, other" or something. And just talk about strategy against those categories, and list characters that fall into those categories?
 
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4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
Another way to look at it is in terms of strategy/playstyle. In other words, how do I counteract: spacing, rushdown, camping, aerial opponents, grounded opponents, prone opponents.

This isn't really an MU thing, though. But I don't know if its outside of the scope of the thread, since it is strategy.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Punish game alone maybe is easy to pigeonhole, but so far as interacting with a character in neutral? Falco and Fox are approached in rather nuanced ways that are quite different from one another. This isn't a punish game thread, this is a matchup thread. This is a "how to play the neutral for an advantage" thread—that advantage being the punish. Even this idea of breaking it into sections (which I'd also argue with: edgeguarding should be thought of as part of the combo/punish game) seems iffy when you attempt to classify those sections so broadly. What do you do about characters like Ganondorf, who are typically slow but have moves that give them burst movement? What about characters like Snake, where they have such a wide variety of tools that you can't strictly consider him fast or slow or campy or whatever? I know lots of Snakes more aggressive than me (Prof is one such Snake) and a lot that are far more defensive than me (like Rolex).

I didn't notice before but "the big group" is a genuine example of why this is a horrible idea:
Bowser gets punished by baiting his armor moves (or any move—he's generally in lag when he moves). His ground speed isn't amazing and he's an extremely read-heavy character, although he has interesting options available to him.
Charizard however has fantastic ground speed and scary aerials and lots of disjoint. Would you really play against these two characters the same way?
Donkey Kong relies a lot on his grab (which has enormous range, mind you) and most of his combos come out of that. This offers a very different conception again than playing against Bowser or Charizard, especially with DK's unique grab dynamics.

In another way, Bowser and Donkey Kong have similar recovery trajectories, but Charizard's is completely different and possesses far more options because of the glide.

Moreover, Charizard is far floatier than Bowser or DK, so the combo tree isn't even going to be exactly the same. This point is more toward my Snake perspective, since I've actually looked into combo trees extensively for Snake, but I'm sure similar problems would arise for Sheik. To illustrate a point:
  • I am able to regrab Bowser out of an up throw from 0-40%*.
  • Donkey Kong gets regrabbed until 30%.
  • Charizard gets regrabbed until 20%.
*every percentage given assumes no DI. DI can make the regrab harder or impossible at the lower range and easier and possible for longer at the higher range.

This means that I have to change my intended followup after one, two, or three throws in variance with these characters. Similarly, Charizard and Bowser are able to be hit by f-tilt -> u-tilt with Snake due to their floatiness, but Donkey Kong is not. This changes aspects of my combo game in that I must opt for tech chases vs. DK more than Charizard or Bowser in order to launch them. Do you see where I'm coming from with this criticism?

As for spacies, I'd argue that their combo trees are incredibly distinct from one another, potentially all starting from shines, yes, but would you react to Fox's shine the same way that you would Falco's? Wolf's shine is able to be crouch-canceled, how do you distinguish that in this format? Wolf's side-b has an upward angle and also has a variation on that angle, giving him slightly more recovery options. Wolf's side-b is also more powerful when you get clipped by it (arguable given falco's meteor). Falco's neutral will look entirely different from Fox's neutral, and Wolf's will look different still. They're not the same characters, and you don't play them the same way, there's no logical way of arguing that.

Umbreon has good intentions, but I think it's too nearsighted and hasn't considered the full diversity of these characters. The punish game comes rather intuitively—the neutral does not.
 
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4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
I think you misinterpreted what I suggested. Talk about what can be done against projectiles, talk about what can be done about campy players, talk about how to edgeguard a vertical recovery, and talk about how to combo a semi-fastfaller. List Snake as having those characteristics, but ALSO list him as having other characteristics. When someone wants to figure out what to do against a specific part of Snake that they have trouble with, they look for that combination of things and apply it to their problem.

Trying to write an end-all-be-all guide for every single character would be wonderful but is a daunting task. It would be more pragmatic to give players seeking help the basic tools of analysis and enable them to further analyze on their own in a case-by-case basis. Nobody is going to (even if we make it) read and memorize all 40 MUs for Sheik, and it wouldn't make them a good player even if they did. I think generic advice is better. Its what those players are missing anyway.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Yeah see, even that is too general, though. "How to deal with projectiles" covers everything from Mario fireballs to ROB's Gyro to Diddy's Banana to Snake's grenades. They don't all work the same way. "It's a hitbox and you counter it or you avoid it." That's not helpful, in my mind. It just left me thinking "how the hell do I counter Falco SHL?" back in the day, and it took me months to really get consistent at dealing with it because nobody sat me down and told me all of the options Falco gets out of SHL and why it's good and how amazing powershielding is. Camping similarly depends upon those issues as well as the characters themselves: there's a Sonic in my area that plays incredibly patient and I can't do anything about it because Snake is slow. That sort of camping isn't the same as a Jigglypuff SH bairing the whole match or a Sheik circle camping Battlefield with needles or a Falco SH lasering under a platform. You can't pigeonhole a character or a character's attributes because they do not exist in a vacuum. There are networks of aspects and qualities to each character that can't be glossed over by doing such a thing. What you've described isn't what a match-up is. Match-ups are, by definition, about a single character and how to deal with them.

I see no fault in the posts such as the following being the composite of this thread:
 
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cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
:snake:
Difficulty: 60:40—Somewhat easy
Summary:
Grab-heavy trap character with large amounts of projectiles and stage control capabilities. Extremely defensive with a massive punish game arsenal. Safe and patient play mitigates a lot of Snake's bite.
Stages: Snake doesn't like not having platforms. Yoshi's Brawl is absolute garbage for Snake. Green Hill Zone is a good choice for Sheik due to the higher ceiling and close sides. Avoid WarioWare, triangle platforms, and low ceilings.
Approach: Due to his powerful OoS options and strong neutral, Snake should be baited and punished as opposed to approached. Needle a lot to force an approach.
Punishes: Grab into DI mixup throws off of whiffed aerials. Use tilts to extend combos. Treat Snake as if he's Ganondorf for combos. Be prepared for extended edgeguard sequences.
What to Avoid: Be vigilant of Snake's mines, his C4s, his range, his grenades (shielded and thrown), and his OoS options. Don't sacrifice positioning too readily.
Extras: Frame 5 UpB OoS hitbox. Wavebounce grenade recovery mixups. Damage boosts via C4 and grenades for recovery. Investigate the properties of down throw, side B, and f-tilt 1 so that they do not catch you off guard. Using wall cling for edgeguards is interesting and worth investigating. Sheik/Zelda transformation detaches C4 sticks.
Videos:
Professor Pro vs. Jaden
Frootloop vs. Sago

for Snake. Here's a few things I need to point out about Snake:
- His aerials have quite a lot of range on them. I don't believe Sheik can shield grab Snake's neutral air or back air if they're executed properly (spacing, landing, and timing all come into play here).
- His grab is one of the longest in the game as well, and it punishes really hard because all of Snake's throws lead into a good position for Snake be it through techchase, u-throw combos, or f- or b-throw off stage or into a mine.
- His OoS options are plainly better than yours via frame 5 UpB which combos into everything. A common sequence is UpB cancel nair to grab, which leads into a free followup. Don't be sloppy around Snake's shield.
- Stage control is the main asset Snake has since it limits your movement and allows his sub-par movement to not be an issue. Pay attention to mines and C4s and grenades, as well as his up smash and up b—all of these are long-range hitboxes that will make you miserable.
- Grenades are fantastic pressure and anti-pressure tools: if your spacing on shield isn't perfect, you're gonna get hit, and if your combo tree isn't foolproof, you'll also get hit. Snake will trade with you for days.
- DACUS is incredibly fast and covers a lot of ground, making up for his otherwise slow ground game.
- A lot of Snake's moves have really surprising, disruptive qualities that goof up the ignorant. In particular, dair, nair, f-tilt1, down throw, and tranq.
- C4 works through shields. Yeah. Abandon your R button.

Snake loves to KO upward. It lets him plant new traps, reload tranquilizer, and get in proper stage position all at the same time. A common sequence will be:
1. C4 detonation for the KO
2. Reload tranq immediately if needed
3. plant a mine, charging if possible
4. DACUS away, charging it to reduce predictability
5. Possibly pull a grenade

The suggestion therefore is to not get stuck with C4 and to avoid up air and u-tilt finishes and to definitely not step on a mine. C4 can be removed by transforming, but this will give Snake time to punish you either before or after the transformation. If you haven't learned at least a little Zelda, I'd honestly suggest doing so, just to remove this option's consistency. That being said, Snake gets a lot off of grab, including guaranteed regrabs from 0 to 30%. Pay attention to how comfortable Snake is on platforms as well. There are combo trees that involve techchases onto the platforms and if the Snake is 100% competent you will lose your stock. This is due in part to down throw, which forces a no tech option. The platforms limit the distance Sheik can roll, making it very difficult to escape. The additional height of platforms also means that Snake has that much easier of a time KOing off the top (platforms tend to shave around 10% off of KO percentages). It's better to jump out of the combos if you can as Snake's jumps aren't incredibly high. Platforms techs are no sanctuary. Going off stage is extremely risky as well, given Snake's fantastic capacity for punishing Sheik's recovery (ledgehop C4, otherwise ledgejump waveland u-tilt or grab will KO. Snake can also plant a mine to cover your landing while holding ledge).

The way I've experienced Sheiks successfully approach the neutral is to battle me for stage control: destroy my landmines, force me into poorer situations, and NEEDLE NEEDLE NEEDLE. Needles can hit grenades when I throw them and blow me up. Needles can hit me while I'm planting a mine and stun me and blow me up. SH Needle can safely detonate mines (rolls and run up shield also works). Vigilance goes a long way in fighting Snake: once you stop running into mines and hitting shielded grenades, Snake needs to start approaching. Snake is slow in most ways, so dashdancing goes a long way. Bait out DACUS and use a quick, low-cooldown move to punish it (since the mortar lands shortly thereafter) or wait under platforms to mitigate that danger. Snake's air mobility is really bad (the worst, in fact) so once he commits to an aerial, you'll know exactly where it's landing. Outspace it and punish the landing.

The thing about Snake is that his combo weight is almost exactly the same to Ganondorf—meaning Sheik combos the piss out of him once she gets a tilt or grab. Your punishes should easily net you 50%+. As for recoveries, Snake is going to be sweetspotting most of the time, so I would recommend going about it in the same manner as you would edgeguard a Sheik: grab ledge and back air for days. Cypher will eat your needles. Be ready for damage boosts via grenades and C4 as well. Stage tech is the more common option, but Snake has a solid downward aerial defense via down air and C4 and wavebounce grenades so going over the stage is also possible. Another option would be to use walled stages to your advantage and wall cling to get the fair. Snake's cypher is very slow and punishable from the sides. Just be wary of grenades.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Would you really play against these two characters the same way?
well, yeah. 80-90% the same anyway. creating mental shortcuts is invaluable for dealing with new situations on the fly. even if we wrote out all 41 MUs, its unlikely that you have common practice against the entire cast. it's nice to have bowser exp and to be able to take lessons and strategies against charizard if you've never played a good charizard before. i mean the alternative is to just lose, so yeah.

as a tip top sheik player, most of these MUs are going to look the same- you're going to needle camp and/or fair spam until you can grab, you'll do some stuff that ends in fair, and you'll edge guard. sheik definitely has to be defensive/reactive for the most part so it's definitely not that easy, but thats just one of the nuances of translating ideas from theory into practice- sheik is for the most part a pretty easy character. do you really need to see "needle spam until you can grab them" with 34 permutations? why not just have 3-4 takeaway lessons that can actually help people that skim these threads?
 
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cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
And my argument is that the 10-20% (which seems a bit exaggerated, but whatever) shouldn't be ignored, either. It's fine to have nice, short quips, but it's also nice to have some detailed things as well.
 

AuraMaudeGone

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Messages
747
Location
New Jersey
In the end we may not even have 40+ summaries to memorize, just notes to have in your pocket to reference.
Great Snake write up btw @ cisyphus cisyphus
I didn't want to group every character just yet tbh. I wanted to hear some other's input as well on the matter. So far what I've read is interesting.
 

_DarkLava

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
29
vs :bowser2:

Difficulty: 70:30
Summary: Believe it or not, you can still chaingrab Bowser. They can try to DI away the Dthrow, but Bowser floats long enough to to just boost grab him, instead of JC grab. It's a very easy match up for Sheik. Maybe not as easy in as it is in Melee but it's still close to unloseable, if you know what you're doing.

Stages:
Go to Dreamland, Smashville, Distant Planet, Norfair, Pokemon Stadium, Green Hill Zone, Final Destination

Honeslty any stage that allows you to move freely and is not small, is a good stage for Sheik against the King of Koopas. Just grab, grab, grab, grab, grab. And maybe a dash attack to pop them in the air.

Don't go to Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, WarioWare
Any small stage that gives Bowser complete control. A competent Bowser on a small stage is actual a very scary thing to deal with. It's still winnable, but it's harder than it would be. Bowser can kill Sheik insanely early on WarioWare and YS. And entire body takes up nearly half of the stage.
Approach: Finished by Juushichi
Punishes: Finished by Juushichi
What to Avoid: Finished by Juushichi
Extras: Finished by Juushichi

vs :marth:
Difficulty: 50:50

Summary: This match up is all about GRABS. Who can grab who the most and follow up on it, wins. Marth upthrow is a very powerful move against Sheik. But Sheik's Dthrow and Bthrow are very good moves to Marth. Sheik can be juggled easily because she has hell trying to get back to the ground. But, Sheik can punish and juggle Marth really well. A poorly spaced Fair from Marth can result in dthrow to Fair. Dthrow to DACUS Usmash starts killing at ~130% for near certain. You might not even need to DACUS, if the DI on the throw is bad enough. Dthrow to dash attack works most of the time, and you can follow that up with a Fair.

Like most floaties, Sheik can chaingrab marth with her Bthrow and Dthrow if you guess the direction they are DI'ing. So attempt to chaingrab at lower percents.

Stages:
Go to Dreamland, Smashville, Distant Planet, Norfair(?)

Sheik's offensive game doesn't really change from stage to stage. She can't utilize platforms as well as Marth does, so it is more like trying to pick a stage that hinders Marth's performance. Any good Marth will grab ledge when Sheik is offstage, that being the case, Dreamland, Smashville, and Distant Planet make it hard for Marth to edgeguard Sheik due to the platforms that Sheik can recover onto. She can't get Fsmash'd as easily when she recovers onto the stage. The moving platform on Smashville makes life a lot easier for a Sheik trying to recover, as well.

Don't go to Yoshi's Story, WarioWare, Yoshi's Island

Sheik can get knocked offstage on Yoshi's Story and WarioWare so easily, and on these stages the blastzones are smaller, and Marth's Fmash can reach the bottom platforms. Because the blastzones are so small it can help or hinder you. You can get earlier kills kills with Fair. But because of how easy it is to Fsmash, Sheik when she recovers on stage, it's a good chance you'll die the moment your hit by one of these. He can use the platforms to juggle you, and you're to going to have a hell of a hard time getting your feet poked every two seconds if you're stuck on them. The platform on Yoshi's Island I have always found really annoying on

Fountain of Dreams?

I personally hate going to this stage vs Marth, it's cramping. And even though I can tilt through platforms, Marth's sword completely dominates on this level. I never take Marth to this stage. Though, I feel as if this is personal preference.

Final Destination
I think this is a pretty even stage, it might be slightly more advantageous to Marth, since there are no platforms for Sheik to recover to. Each character can juggle the other the moment one of them is in the air.


Approach: Marth will be dash dancing and looking for a grab and Dtilting, so the approach is a very difficult thing for Sheik. Needles are good for stopping their momentum. So are boost grabs for when they overextend. Dash attack for Sheik is very high risk, high reward. If you can get close enough to go through Marth if he shields, then by all means dash attack because of how much you can get off of popping Marth in the air. But if you miss, he'll juggle you like clown. Short hop nairs aren't too bad either at higher percents if you can space them well. Very well.

Punishes: Sheik's punish game consists of Fairs, Dthrows, and Bthrows. Anytime Marth misses anything, go in for a grab. Sheik gets too much off a grab to not abuse the hell out of it. If you see Marth carelessly jumping around dash attack through him and proceed to combo him. She can crouch cancel his untipped fair until 115% and tipped fair until ~80%. This can allow you to punish poorly spaced Fairs with throws.

What to Avoid: Grabs Getting grabbed, and getting knocked offstage, and overextending in the neutral. Marth combos Sheik for breakfast, he'll utilize platforms to continue his combos. Additionally, they have an easy time edgeguaring Sheik, as they can just grab ledge and wait for you to recover back on stage.
Extras:
If Marth is off an below the stage (which he will most likely be), use your needles to hinder his recover.
Jab reset on Marth stops working at 30%.

vs :falcon:
Difficulty: 50:50

Summary: This is a matchup very heavily centered around walling Falcon out in the neutral. Each character's ability to techchase the other. And effectively edgeguarding Falcon when he's offstage. Due to Falcon's amazing combo ability on Sheik, easy edgeguarding, great techchasing ability, and vice versa. And due to Falcon being much better in PM than Melee. I think this match up is Even.

Edgeguarding is crucial in this matchup. Falcon's recovery isn't as predictable as it is in Melee, because now he can use his side-B as a viable recovery mixup due to it being able to grab the ledge. This being said, a recovering Falcon can either be down right predictable (recovers below the stage) or not as predictable (recovery above the stage).

Falcon Above Stage
When he's above the stage, go out there. Reach for him. Reverse needle cancel and Bair him. Or Reverse aerial rush (RAR) into a Bair. Even if you miss and he falcon kick's downward trying to reach closer to the stage, you will still probably reach the stage before him depending on the height because he might end up below the stage. If he does manage to get back on stage, use the landing lag to Bthrow him. If he pops up at lower percents, Dsmash. If he pops up at very high percents, Fair. If he DI's away, that's even better, run out and Bair, Fair, or needle him. Sheik's Bair is an insanely powerful edgeguarding tool. Abuse the hell out of it. Rewind back to when Falcon was above the stage. He could also try and sideB, your Bair will cover that as well, as long as your foot is in his face.

Falcon Below Stage
This very simple. Just needle and grab ledge. Then spam Bairs. It will completely wall out Falcon's recovery, and almost guarantee a stock (unless you screw up).

The Neutral
When the match begins, immediately start charging needles. It will either bait an approach or you'll get a free set. If he doesn't approach Falcon will dash dance, and shffl Nairs constantly. Nair OoS is a very important concept to know with Sheik. Apply it here. The active hitboxes for her Nair comes out on frame 2, and remains active for another 28. It's a good OoS option for Falcon's pressure. A very good one. Also if Falcon isn't respecting your space, late Bairs, autocancelled fairs, but more importantly boost grabs are good moves to punish overextension. What's also important to keep in mind is dash dancing. It might not be as good as Falcon's but it still gets the job done. It can bait out bad approaches and punish it with a grab, which is crucial in the matchup. After you get a grab, even if you miss the tech chase, don't let Falcon have any space. Be on top of him. Sheik's Ftilt beats Falcon's Nairs so remember that.

And look for dash attacks when Falcon is at higher percents when see an opportunity. I cannot stress this enough. Sheik's gets so much off of fastfallers with a dash attack above maybe ~40%. It pops them up and you can follow up accordingly.

And needles. Needles, needles, needles.

Stages:
Go to Yoshi's Island, Fountain of Dreams, WarioWare

Small stages are your friend against Falcon. Give him less space to run circles around you. FoD is a very good stage against Falcon. You're best stage really. Your tilts go through the platforms, and you Usmash tips through most of the platform highers, and Dsmash is a good option to use when techchasing Falcon on one of the lower platforms because it goes straight through them if they are low enough. Be careful on Yoshi's and WarioWare, the blastzones maybe be smaller, but don't be above Falcon. His Uair has insane priority and can easily clip you through the platforms, so stay grounded. If you can pop Falcon to one of the platforms, you can react to the tech and Fair offstage for the edgeguarding opportunity.

Don't go to Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Dreamland

I never take Falcon to FD. It's too risky. Given Falcon's superior mobility options he has more control of the stage than Sheik as well. One grab, one Uair string, one Dair can end your stock, or put you pretty far behind in terms of percentage. This stage is probably a personal preference, though. Yoshi's Island is an annoying stage to play a good Falcon on. They will use the top platform to continue their combos. Honestly it's just ask risky as FD and you have other stages to go to. Why not Dreamland? Once again you have better stages to go to then one that allows Falcon to move freely and has platforms to allow him to continue Uair combos, and mix up his linear approach.

Approach: I'm not entirely sure about your approach options. They are pretty much nonexistent. Sheik isn't Fox, remember that, she can't really approach aggressively. There is no reason to approach in this matchup because Falcon will probably be all over you anyway. That being said, Falcon will approach with shffl'd Nairs into grabs. At ~60% (probably less) his Uairs will start comboing with each other and will almost always end with a knee, killing you. As a result, if you are on a stage with platforms, don't be over Falcon. Another thing to remember that makes approaching harder is that Falcon's Bair and Nair can effectively wall out Sheik.

Punishes: Punish Falcon with a grab whenever he makes a bad approach, you get so much off of one grab. Don't neglect it. Also use dash attack, it isn't a bad move in this matchup. Sheik can follow up with a lo of moves. Dash attack > Usmash. Dash attack > dash attack > Usmash. Dash attack > dash attack > Fair, etc. (you get the point). Also use your ftilts to set up into combos and beat his approaching Nairs. Lastly, whenever Falcon is offstage, that should be your stock. He should not be able to get back on. Bair, double jumped Bairs and Nairs, and needles are good edgeguarding options. Even Fairs.

What to Avoid: Getting grabbed, throwing out random shield grabs, getting Dair'd on stage, being offstage. Why is getting grabbed so bad? It leads to tech chase opportunities for Falcon. Getting grabbed by a good Falcon player can result in Sheik getting a lot of percent on her, or dying when grabbed at higher percents. Do not get grabbed. To piggyback off that, don't shield grab unless the aerial is poorly spaced. If you have the urge to shield grab an aerial, try to hold it back unless you know for absolute certain you'll get the grab because most likely Falcon will just cross you up with their aerial, and a whiffed grab can result in a hard a punish. Getting down aired on stage is one of the last things you want to happen. While you're floating in the air figuring out what you did wrong, a knee is already flying toward your face, or Uair > Uair > Knee, to carry you closer to the blastzones. Once again, once you are offstage it will be hell to get back on; keep that in mind and don't play very recklessly against Falcon.

Extras
Beware of Falcon's Uair. It's very good against Sheik.
 
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Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Premium
Joined
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Columbus, Ohio
Can add to the unfinished Bowser MU.

Approach: Don't. Needle camp and needle charge cancel camp. Force him to jump in or dash attack in and shield his approach / spot dodge his command grab.
Punishes: Grab. Fair bad approaches. Bowser's tech rolls are very apparent and should be reactable, but use boost grab to catch the far techs away. Get him close to a ledge and then get him offstage. If you want the mixup, Bthrow/Dthrow DACUS will kill at 110% on most stages. Get him to ~110% before the up smash.
What to Avoid: Being above Bowser and/or on platforms. If you're on a platform be smart about disengaging from them. Avoid rushing off of the ledge. Stay there and wait until you are comfortable enough to do something to come off. You have at least 3 ledge grabs/shino stalls until you absolutely have to come off.
Extras: Bowser's best approaches are either wavelanding off platforms into his mixup or by dash attacking / dash grabbing in. Dash attack can be baited by needle cancelling into shield. Keep wary of this range. Dash grab is beaten by needling. At early percents, if you cannot get a regrab... hold shield. Bowsers are going to nair coming down to try to armor through and bet down. You will get easy regrabs from there.
 
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D

Deleted member

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i disagree with not approaching bowser. if you dont have some way to check his movement he can pin you very easily and kill you without much effort. you should be approaching with movement and committing as minimally as possible looking for something with lag so that you can grab him, but ultimately you still have to play the neutral.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Premium
Joined
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Columbus, Ohio
Checking his movement is a better way to say it than not approaching, yes. So add another thing to avoid is having your back to the ledge without space to avoid the meat of his dash attack/dash grab/fair/etc mixup.
 

_DarkLava

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
29
vs :diddy:
Difficulty: 50:50

Summary: This matchup is all about not allowing Diddy to get stage control. Stay close to him. If he doesn't have a banana don' let him pull one. Be close enough so that if he does toss one out, you can punish him for it. The moment Diddy has control over a banana, many things about the matchup changes. Your approach changes and punishes, being a couple.

Diddy is also at the right falling speed so that you can tech chase, and chaingrab (at certain percents). If he correctly guesses the Dthrow instead of Bthrow and Di's accordingly he won't be able to double jump before he hits the ground, meaning you can tech chase, if he correctly guesses the throw.

Bananas are what makes this match up even and not in Sheik's favor. Diddy is all about stage control, so stay close and pressure him constantly, especially when he hasn't pulled a banana. And speaking of bananas, what to do with a banana when Diddy is not near it is up to you. If you're confident in your item handling ability, use it to your advantage (I recommend not doing this though), but how you handle the bananas not under Diddy's control are up to you.

Platform movement is also very important in this matchup. Very important. I can't stress this enough. The moment a banana is pulled a competent Diddy will have control over the lower portion of the stage. Platforms will help you traverse, without being shutdown by peanuts and bananas.

Edgeguarding Diddy is somewhat similar to edgeguarding Fox/Falco/Wolf. Fox and Falco, more so. When Diddy is direcly below the edge, grab ledge, drop down and do a rising nair. It has more priority and will intercept Diddy's upB. If he's at a slight angle down and away from the edge, use your needles. If it hits, then you can consider the stock to be yours. If it doesn't then grab ledge, drop and do a rising Nair to intercept his upB. If he's above edgeguarding, use Bair to intercept his overB. I do not recommend using Fair because if you mistime it slightly you can be kicked or latched on to.

Stages:
Go to WarioWare, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story
Stages with an abundance of platforms are you're best friend in this matchup. Do not underestimate Diddy's ability to have stage control. It's what he does. This being said, it's very important to go to stages with small surfaces so you can constantly be in his face and be a constant threat to him if he does attempt to pull a banana. When he does eventually pull one, however, use the platforms the stages offer to your advantage. It's also easier due to the fact that Diddy has really bad juggling capabilities for if he does hit you while you are on a platform.

Don't go to Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island, (Dreamland?)
Why not these stages? It's very easy for Diddy to just control these stages with his peanuts and bananas. It's big enough so that he can run away and toss a nanner out, as well. And they offer lackluster platforms to move around with. I put Dreamland on here because it's just too big of a stage to face Diddy on.

Approach: You will be approaching in this matchup, and the entire time Diddy will try to zone you and control the stage with bananas and peanuts. Approaching is easy if there is no banana in play. It becomes much harder the moment he has control over a banana, though. If there is a banana in play, use platforms to your advantage to move across the stage.

Punishes: Punish Diddy's down B whenever he tosses out a banana. This will most likely be the first thing they do every match. There is a significant amount of lag when he tosses out the nanner, if you can reach him they'll probably think you'll attack so just grab and go into a chaingrab or tech chase situation, depending on their DI. Now chances are you won't be able to reach the after their end lag on down B finishes, but this is still something you should try to punish at all times.

What to Avoid: A big no-no in this matchup is attacking an in-shield Diddy while he has a banana in hand. Diddy's OoS options are limited without a banana. Put one in his hand, and at higher percents it becomes suicide to attack him carelessly while he's in shield. This is because Diddy has the ability to glide toss his banana out of shield.

So take this scenario: You do a poorly spaced fair on Diddy's shield while he has a banana in hand. If you're at high percents, expect Diddy to glide toss the banana into you and then follow up immediately with an Fsmash or Dsmash, both probably killing you.

Extras:
Diddy's bananas do not disappear when he dies.

Diddy's fully charged upB does not result in a significant height difference then using it initially without charging. By this I mean that the amount Diddy falls cancels out with the height from the upB, thus resulting in all the same heights from using it initially all the way to using it full charged. They will all make Diddy reach the same height, relative to the stage. Granted, there still is a slight difference in height, but it is somewhat negligible.

Percents Chaingrabbing starts to work on Diddy:
Down throw:
No DI - 82% (but it does start to lead to Ftilt at early percents)
DI toward Sheik - 0%
DI away from Sheik - Never

Back Throw:
No DI - 0% (It is possible to chaingrab at 0% but IMO it's very difficult)
DI toward Sheik - 0%
DI away from Sheik - Never

When Diddy is fully laying on the ground, Sheik's first jab is to high to reach him. Her second jab will hit though. At 60% jab reset using Sheik's second jab stops working.

Jab reset using the first jab stops working at 49%.This means that jab reset after Dthrow and using the first jab stops working around %40.
 
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D

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Anyone knowledgeable on the Lucario MU?
yeah, its the same as the ganon MU basically. wall him out with fairs bairs needles until you can grab. stick to nair oos and respect that they can both have weird aggressive movement options and wall those out too. when you grab them you can combo forever. when you edge guard they should die. don't get hit.
 

Cheeri-Oats

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
1,338
Location
San Diego, CA
@ Mr. PotatoBread Mr. PotatoBread

Pretty much what @Umbreon said. Some nuances or specific examples that you may be able to incorporate into your game or expand upon what Umbreon mentioned.

* Nair OoS is your friend. Lucario can cancel any normal attack into a special even if they hit your shield. For Lucarios that want to extend their combos, they'll cancel their normals into Aura Sphere and then cancel the Aura Sphere charge into something else. Or the Lucario will opt for a command grab (side-B).

Here is a common scenario for me. A Lucario approaches me from above and they hit my shield with down-air. Usually when I'm approached this way by anything that is not a spacie, I wait for the character to land next to time, and then I shield grab. What Lucarios can do to prevent this scenario is they can cancel the second hit of their Dair into command grab (side-B) and then proceed to combo me into the floor.

I can get out of this situation by opting for Nair OoS and interrupting the grab.

Lucarios sometimes even want you to shield one of their laggier such as F-Smash because upon hitting your shield, the risk involved in using that attack is significantly reduced. Sometimes when I approach Lucarios they'll toss out a rogue F-Smash to bait me into shielding it right at the edge of their spacing, and then they'll cancel the F-Smash into Down-B (Double Team?) and cross me up with either a pivot grab (because they are behind me) or they'll expend an Aura Charge to approach with Up-tilt or Down-tilt.

If I find myself in this situation where I get caught with a laggy attack and I happen to shield in time, if I Nair OoS I can sometimes cover when they cancel into Down-B. If they do not have an Aura Charge, and they still decide to cross me up with Down-B, and I predict this, I can wavedash OoS straight into the ground and down-smash. This will cover the cross up.

* Understand that you hold the advantage when Lucario is off-stage. Your needles can intercept a Lucario that attempts to recover low. Nair lasts long enough that if you jump off-stage and use it well before a Lucario recovers with Up-B, you can occupy space and push them to recover around you.

The best position for Lucario when they are recovering is when they are diagonally above you and they have an Aura Charge. They can cancel their Down-B into a high-priority Nair at full speed and nothing you can do will trade with it or stop it. If a Lucario is in the above situation, I jump up to bait them into preparing their Down-B cancel into Nair, and then I immediately fast fall and intercept with a pivot grab while dashing away from them or a down-smash if I'm at a low-percentage.

* Understand that crouch cancelling is the worst mechanic in the game that you can abuse too. Lucario will benefit from crouch-cancelling because they can take a jab, f-tilt, or falling nair at low percents, crouch cancel into d-tilt, and then combo you into oblivion. This just means you have to grab more. And if you are at a low percent (<30) you can crouch cancel Lucario's Dash Attack into Grab. If you feel the spacing is wrong for a grab, crouch cancel into down-tilt and set them up. I don't recommend doing this often though, as your down-tilt can be crouch cancelled by Lucario up to and around 50% and you'll be combo'd in response.

* Intercept with Jab, Forward-Tilt, Up-Tilt at later percentages (>70%). Jab is very very fast. I've been slowly training myself to shield less and jab incoming moves more. You should not be jabbing at all at lower percentages because the opponent can crouch cancel, but if you use it to sneak in a hit while the Lucario is in start-up frames, you may catch them SDI'ing horribly and your jab can lead into a Fair, Grab, or Down-Tilt.

Recently, instead of Dash Attacking, I've been playing around Lucario's space and dash-cancelling (dashing and then pressing down to stop the dash immediately) into forward tilt. If done with strict timing, you can even fox-trot into forward-tilt. I use this when I feel the Lucario is going to jump into a Down-B, or when they mis-space a dash attack or dash dance.

I have more to write, but I'll leave it at that for now.
 
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yeah tbh i dont really understand lucario well, i just understand good basic smash and i know that lucario is playing good basic smash until he gets a conversion, so you can stick to sheiks Plan A and roll your usual stuff without too much adaptation and do well. that doesn't mean Sheik wins the MU, personally i think its very close, just that it's very straightforward. if lucario does hit you with a combo, literally spin the stick in circles as fast as you can and go for multiple random SDI inputs to get out. lucarios combos have to be many multiple hits to be good and are designed to not hit you away until the combo is ending so you get lots of chances to escape for no real reason until then. if you burn your jump via tap jump from it, oh well lucario has a hard time keeping you honest as you fall because fair/bair/nair cover sheiks fall well and if you SDI the final hit and die for it you should have SDId out better before then.
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
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vs :002:

Difficulty: Easy (70:30)


Summary:
Edgeguard all day long. We'll talk more about that in the punishmet section.. Sheik has a plethora of both combo and kill options in this MU, due to Ivy's weight making her combo food. At low percents sheik has regrabs, at mid percents d and b throws set up perfectly for aerial combos. Needles are going to be your BFF against Ivy. As for what to look out for, Ivy does have some good spacing options in fair, bair, dtilt, and jab, but Sheik deals with these pretty easily.


Stages:
Go to Distant Planet, Norfair, Dream Land, Wario Ware
On each of these four, you can recover to the platforms. Ivy's bair off stage can cause problems if sheik is forced to recover predictably, but the extra option the platforms provide make edgeguarding sheik a lot more difficulty. On the flipside, the platforms don't help Ivy recover all too much. The tether is still going to have to go to the edge, which sheik can punish hard. sometimes Ivy will be able to use dair to get to the platform if she's off stage high, but Sheik can hide under the platforms and punish with fair/bair/uair. Also, these stages are big enough that you can utilize needles. You can get far enough away from Ivy to negate her range and razor leaves with needles.

Stay away from Yoshi's Brawl, Green Hill Zone
Both of these stages are bad for Sheik in general imo. GHZ is small and the platform is small/not reliable for recovery. Yoshi's Brawl makes needles not viable in the neutral because the curve of the ground reduces needle range. Not to mention that stupid platform makes aerial needles almost unusable. Other than these two, I would normally ban either FD or Lylat depending on what is legal in the tourney/what I think the Ivy would be comfortable on.

Other things to note... Ivy can crouch under needles on the edges of Lylat and Yoshi's Melee. This is why I ban Lylat, besides the way the platforms block aerial needles. I tend to be okay with Yoshi's Melee because the platforms are good for recovering with sheik. Both of these stages do give Sheik the opportunity to use the platforms for tech chasing with waveland grab or dair to continue combos, so keep that in mind.

As for starters, ban GHZ, hope for DL. Battlefield is okay because you can sometimes recover to platforms, PS2 is good because you can fully utilize needles, and smashville is probably your second best option behind DL because you can (situationally) use the moving platform to get back to safety from off stage and you can really use needles effectively here. If FD is an option, ban it.

In general for this MU, just use the stages that you known are good for Sheik.


Neutral:
Needles, needles, needles. Ivy's razor leaf becomes essentially useless because one needle cancels it, and it doesn't take much more time for Sheik to charge up more than one needle. Ivy will have to approach you, because you can out camp her. Her best options for approaching are going to be rar bair and d tilt, both of which you'll have to respect. The range on these are exceptional, so don't be afraid to shield and wavedash away. wd away, bait out attacks, use needles until you see an opening for one of your set ups, then combo that booty. This is core Sheik strategy anyway, but it's especially easy on Ivysaur.


Punishment:
Look for them to seed bomb at the wrong times. Most good Ivy's will know when to seed bomb and when not to, but at lower levels you'll find them throwing out the bomb at punishable times. Also, look for poorly spaced bairs on your sheild. A well-spaced bair on your shield is going to be tough to punish, but if she isn't hitting with the tip of the vine, you should be able to nair, grab, or wd>dtilt oos. If she nairs your shield, 9 times out of 10 you will see an up tilt follow up. Wait until the up tilt comes after the nair, then you can punish.

Edgeuard. You should know as a Sheik player that you punish with grab, throw them off stage or combo into a fair that gets them off stage, then use nair/bair/needles to edgeguard. Against Ivy, you'll almost always want to get them off the stage and grab the ledge. Use needles to snipe the double jump/dair recovery if you want, but your real goal is going to be to grab that ledge before she tethers to it. Once you both are holding the ledge, Ivy will have to pop up and do that incredibly laggy jump back onto stage. If she DI's this forward onto the stage, you can ledge hop fair. At high/mid percents this should knock her all the way off the stage to the other side because she'll already be DI'ing forward. If she DI's back on the hop from tether, you can ledge hop bair and continue to edgeguard. This really should result in a kill every time unless the Ivy is at really low percent.
If you don't have time to grab the ledge, Ivy will often fair right in front of the stage and then drop down to ledge. Wait for the fair to come out and you can wd>dtilt>fair before she grabs the ledge.

Bait and punish should be a theme. You should know by now that smash fundamentals are more important than anything else for a sheik player. Bait and punish with grab. Speaking of grabs, dthrow and bthrow set up for combos really really nicely against Ivy. Use dthrow exclusively at low percents, you will always have a follow up. After about 30%, you can start the DI mix up. Weak hit of nair will let you follow up out of grab, but most of the time a fair will get them off stage and you'll be able to edgeguard from there. Plus, dthrow>up smash is reliable (I think, though you may have to DACUS).


What to Avoid:
Ivy's upsmash is deadly. The MU is one of the few where Sheik's aerial game has a lot of potential, but if Sheik is unsafe in the air, up smash can wreck you. Take note if you don't want to be a poor and pitiful soul.

And like I said before, dtilt and bair are going to out range most of Sheik's moves, so use needles well and know what to do oos based on how well the Ivy spaces these moves.

Extras:
Here is what Machiavelli (probably the best Ivy on the west coast) has to say in the Ivysaur thread on the matter....
"-This is probably one of Ivysaur's most difficult counters, as she seems to have all the tools necessary to cut away at Ivy's options. Needles are a key part of this match-up and do wonders against Ivysaur. Alone, they are able to out-camp Ivysaur, as it takes only one needle to cancel a razor leaf, and it is not difficult to fire more than one at a time. In all of their uses, needles will force a reaction out of Ivysaur, so be safe in whatever response you take. Ivysaur is very susceptible to Sheik's shield pressure, chain-grabs, and crouch-cancel game, so you should research them and learn methods of escaping each. Sheik is also more than equipped to edge-guard you. Take note of what moves Sheik uses to keep you from returning to stage and attempt to change up your timing with dairs, and your air attack defenses. Another small note to add is that Sheik has the ability to interrupt Ivysaur's up-B recovery with aerial needles. It is unlikely to kill you as long as you recover below a 45 degree angle, so you are shielded by the stage."

Good Ivy's will use uair as a movement mix up. If you notice this in a match, hide under platforms and punish it with a grab. If they are doing it off stage, they have to use their tether recovery, so just grab the ledge and wait.


I think this is all accurate, but let me know if any of it isn't and I'll edit it.
P.S. I don't know how to do the spoiler thing, or else I would have. Anyone want to let me know how to do that?
 

BRUJO~

Smash Apprentice
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I see that the Falco MU is in progress, but in the mean time, does anyone have some brief tips about it? Specifically how to deal with lasers?
 

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
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TimeMuffinPhD
Hey fellow Shiek mains. We've made a matchup thread in the Wolf forums that's currently working on covering all matchups for the character; rotating every week. We were hoping a few of you could stop by the Shiek thread and give us a taste of the matchup from your perspective? Much appreciated.

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-week-2-sheik.401645/
 

InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
Practice. The window for Falco's lasers is tight and varies a bit based on what you're doing at the time + laser height. Grab a friend and have him spam SHLs at different heights and distances.

You might also consider rebinding a digital button or removing springs from a shoulder button to make it easier, since powershields require a hard (digital) press. I have X rebound to shield, in part for that very reason.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
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^^Very good idea for sheik. Pretty sure Frootloop talked about doing this with me when we played at Sweet Prologue. But yeah, I learned with 20xx and was really good at it so long as I made it a part of my practice. Try to do it in friendlies as well—it doesn't matter so much if you mess it up there. Get to the point that it's basically second nature. Also learn how to move out of shield (perfect wavedash OOS is really good to reposition) in case you whiff. Watch how the Falco is moving as well so that you can know what option you ought to be doing as well. The real key is to strike a balance between being close enough to prevent lasers but far enough to react to SHFFL approaches.
 

_DarkLava

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
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Do you (or anyone else) have tps for practicing powershielding?
Many people throw around "powershield Falco's laser" as an end all term for the problem. And while yes, powershielding them will get rid of the laser problem. It isn't nearly as easy as anyone makes it seems. Good Falcos won't just sit on the end of the stage and throw out lasers all the time. They will mix it into their approach and at just seemingly random times (because why not) as well. You won't know when it's coming most of the time. Few top PM and melee players can powershield consistently nearly every laser as the timing is difficult (1-3 frames before the attack hits you or 1/60 - 3/60 of a second). Practice powershielding a lot but don't get frustrated if you keep screwing up the timing. It is incredibly difficult.

Also to move around Falco's laser, I'd recommend a stage with platforms to play him on: Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Dreamland, Fountain. Use platform movement to help against Falco's lasers. You won't be nearly as locked down on these stages. Also Sheik's crouch and crawl can go under a laser that isn't close to the ground.

EDIT: Also to practice your powershielding on PM, go to training, throw a Red Shell on the ground and powershield it as it keeps bouncing toward you. I think that will work. I honestly haven't tried. Or you can choose a level 9 Fox and powershield his double laser spam. But if you don't mind practicing it on Melee, you can use the 20XX Hack Pack.

EDIT2: There are no red shells in PM. Instead go to Shadow Moses Island, spawn a Green Shell. Throw it at the wall and powershield it as it comes back.
 
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_DarkLava

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@BRUJO~ What do you think about Ivy's upB? I don't think you talked about it much. Whenever I play Ivysaur, I envision this region above him from 45° to 135° that I don't want to be in ever because of upB and uair. It's also pretty well known that Sheik should recover on platforms, but Ivy's upB is a very good move to swipe her off the platform with killing potential if they sweetspot it (which will most likely happen). Is this a thing we should keep in mind for?

Like for instance, on WarioWare a sweetspoted Ivy upB from one end of the platform starts killing Sheik with good DI at 112% . Is this a good trade off?
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
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^^You're talking about a move that KOs on WarioWare at 112%. Consider the implications of that. Ivysaur's UpB, from what I remember reading on Ivy boards around the time of 3.5, has been "nerfed to the point that it's not worth going for." It's only useful at times when nothing else will hit, like at the end of a weird aerial combo string. The landing lag on UpB is really long as well, so whiffing it is a huge problem.
 
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_DarkLava

Smash Cadet
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^^You're talking about a move that KOs on WarioWare at 112%. Consider the implications of that.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. I'm assuming you mean as in "It's WarioWare so it should happen in the first place" or "That actually kills pretty late on WarioWare." I can't tell which one. And the move kills at 112% when Sheik is all the way on the other side of the stage to the blast zone opposite where she is. And if you don't DI perfectly (so that you'll die of the top) it will kill you as low as 50% if you're on platforms near the blast zone he hits you to. And Solarbeam kills at 55% even with good DI if you're on the platform. And say you recover to the platform Ivy kills Sheik at 92% with a sweet spot Uair with good DI.

Also consider Ivy's range he has on his moves. Fair, Bair, razor leaf. These moves don't make this stage bad for him. He can zone easily on WarioWare. Additionally, I hesitate to land on platforms against Ivy. Especially when his Dsmash and Fsmash can be lived by DI'ing down and just hitting the stage until ridiculous percents. Greater than 170% for Fsmash. Greater than 250% for Dsmash.

Why not just go to Battlefield? Blastzones are bigger. You can't die as easily. And considering most of Sheik's kills will be coming from gimps and edgeguards, going to BF is better for her than it is for Ivy.
 

BRUJO~

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@ _DarkLava _DarkLava at this point, Ivy's up air and up smash are much scarier than up b. Especially since ivy's uair sends her into the ground to recover her jumps so quickly, she can juggle sheik pretty well and kill easily with it. I didn't include anything about uair because in general Sheik is easily juggled because of how slow her dair is, I thought it was assumed knowledge. Maybe I should have included the following....

Ivy's UpB has been nerfed considerably from previous versions, so when you are knocked in the air, this is not your biggest threat. It does have kill potential, and is a good combo finisher if you are put on platforms especially. So if you are comboed up onto a platform, be mindful to techroll out of it's reach if you can. If you're recovering to a platform, upb does pose a threat, so mix up your recoveries so this doesn't become predictable for punishment.
What really threatens Sheik when she is above Ivy is uair. Ivy's uair can kill relatively low and juggle sheik effectively (b/c it sends Ivy into the ground to recover jumps quickly) whilst healing ivy and charging solar beam. Sheik is used to being juggled easy; like most characters, there is a region directly above Ivy that you don't want to be falling into. Try to DI behind her when your in the air. This will give you a better chance at getting back to the ground, b/c DIing in front of her means if you're too far away for uair she can hit upb. DI behind and she might hit bair, but that will normally put you in a place you can recover. Also, don't underestimate the value of SHEIK's upb as a tool to get back to the stage/ledge. If you learn how to sweetspot upb to the ledge from above, that can be a really good tool.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
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why are you talking about the value of playing on WW for Ivy? I said nothing about that. KOing at 112% isn't that good, and you're certainly manipulating statistics into making it seem better than it is. Meh
 
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