Sheik Match Up & Strategy Thread [3.6]

[Protosauce]

Thanks Tarul AuraMaudeGone for for advice. Falco Is just so goddam fun to play.

And I have no advice for the others. My PP has a mediocre Rob.
There is an advanced+ GW in my city but I never get the chance to play him :/ all I know I if he reads a techroll in with his downsmash, you have DI down an tech again or you fly off the stage at the lowest possible you can imagine (The Satan Angle, because it send you straight to hell)

Ps Tarul your writing style is so entertaining to read :3

 

[Ripple]

feel free to have this thread

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheiks-d-throw-analysis.421277/#post-20346410

 

[Tarul]

I guess some good things can come from the dismantlement of PMDT- we can start focusing on Sheik's matchups without worrying about future changes.

I'll try to write a post about the DK matchup today.

 

[Tarul]

Difficulty: 55:45 (Slightly favorable)

Summary:
Top Gear is a pretty good way to describe this matchup - both characters go from 0-to-death in 3.2 seconds. The DK player will use his massive limbs to outrange Sheik with d-tilts and bairs, all the while dash-dancing like a madman and charging Donkey Punch whenever he can. If he gets a grab, prepare to eat quite a bit of damage thanks to upairs, and/or even die from an extended edge-guard situation. However, all is not lost, as Sheik has an excellent shield game, a projectile, a good tech-chase against DK's horrible tech-rolls, and an easy edge guard. In many ways, you could consider this matchup to be a more polarized Falcon matchup: volatile, like a generic anti-hero. You're going to need nerves of steel (don't use your chain, though) for optimal patience and conversions.

Stages:
Generally, you want Medium size stages with no platforms. Platforms not only let DK extend his combos to absurd percentages, but also let him get quick kills of the top with Donkey punch. Big stages give DK space to dash dance and charge Donkey Punch. The no platforms give you more room to not only tech chase DK, but also prevent DK from landing when he recovers high.

Pick: Smashville, Greenhill Zone, Pokemon Stadium 2, Final Destination
These are flat stages,medium-ish stages where DK can't easily just run away and charge DK punch. Also, they allow for easy tech-chases, edge guards, while preventing DK from getting to dash-dance happy (Final Destination is an exception to the last point).

Eh Picks (You Decide!): Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams. Ever died off the top at 60%?
Welcome to Battlefield, aka "DK's Wild Ride to the Top Platform into a Donkey Punch." However, Battlefield is probably one of Sheik's best stages as well. Platforms lead to easy tech-chases, it's just big enough so that your speed matters but small enough so that your weak DD isn't an issue, it lets you use you projectiles, so on and so forth. Fountain of Dreams is a bit debatable as well, as the platforms screw up tech-chasing, and allow DK to cover the platforms with his Gym Bro arms. However, Fountain is also a great stage for Sheik because she can do the same, while also benefiting from platform mobility for movement purposes (when cornered).

Do Not Pick: Delphino's Secret, Distant Planet, Warioware
Basically, big stages. Big stages improve DK's neutral by giving him space to outmaneuver Sheik and charge Donkey Punch. The only benefit of these stages is that you can *technically* camp DK and live longer than usual. However, big stages give DK the option to recover high (DK has minimal landing lag), improving his survivability, but also provide DK the opportunity to trap Sheik in edgeguard loops that makes the extra survival that Sheik gains a Zimbabwe dollar - practically worthless. Warioware, while technically a small stage, has a fairly decently-sized main stage, which gives DK the space to move. The small boundaries and platform placement just mean that DK can combo you to death and kill you absurdly quickly, making this stage a big no-no.

Approach:

• Be Patient and Move. You want to pick the right moment so that you can get past DK's Dwayne Johnson arms and great dash dance to get in close to do your attacks. DK's out of shield options are terrible (especially his spot-dodge) with the exception of up-b, but up-b is punishable on whiff and has a fairly small hitbox. Also, your attacks are significantly faster than DK's, with DK's faster ground option being jab at frame 3, tilts being frame 6-8 and punishable on whiff, and aerials being frames 6-7 and punishable (with the exception of bair, which is unfortunately auto-cancelable). Options include boost-grabs, dash attack (don't do this at low percents - he's a heavy), and jab/tilts.
• Understand DK's objective. DK is a grappler - he wants to give you a big hug and then throw you around like a father does with his toddler. Thus, you should always be wary of the grab, and adapt accordingly, knowing that this is DK's ultimate objective.
  • Cargo up-throw puts you directly above DK. If he grabs you below 40-60%, he's going to up-throw you and get up-air strings til you can jump out around 40-60% or you get to ledge.
    • After this percentage, he can jump -> up-throw to get a follow-up with up-air
    • Cargo up-throw generally leads to Donkey Punch, so be wary.
  • Cargo side-throw mixes. You need to hold away from DK to avoid the fair/nair/bair follow-up. DK will generally do this when he needs to get a kill/ up-throw doesn't lead into anything
• Needle, but be careful. Needles are a great way to build damage and force DK to approach. However, needles do give DK an opportunity to jump over the projectiles and bair into you, which you need to watch out for.
• Space bairs/nairs. Your range might not be as big as DK's, but it's still pretty substantial. You can catch the edges of DK's movement with the aerials and also jump over his d-tilt.
  
• Don't be afraid to shield. Shielding is great against most of DK's pokes in neutral (wavedash afterwards for punishes), and Sheik's excellent roll and spot-dodge mean that grabs aren't too big of a threat.
• Watch out for his CC. Sheik has a bad time against CC, and DK eats Big Macs for breakfast (he's a heavy). You can deal with his CC by:
  • Aerial needle -> something
  • Dash grab
  • Downsmash
  • Spot-dodge

Punishes:

• Grabs:
  • How to Tech Chase on Reaction:
    • Run forward and then wavedash before DK hits the ground. You want to be as close to him as possible, but must be standing still when he's about to hit the ground.
    • React for tech in-place or no-tech.
    • If above didn't happen, cover the role with a boost grab.
    • Repeat until you're worried that you'll drop the chase, you have a good combo setup, or you've racked enough damage to set up an edgeguard.
• Edgeguard:
  • DK will either try to recover high on stage, or stall out and try and sweetspot ledge.
  • If he's going high:
    • Fair early so that he runs into the fair. Make sure to be slightly diagonally under him or above him as his up-b actually hits pretty far.
    • Don't be afraid to up-air if he goes over you. He is a heavy fast-faller, so you'll probably get follow-ups.
  • If he's going low:
    • Needles-> grab ledge work when he's below the stage.
    • Grab ledge -> bair if he's below you, hold edge if he's trying to sweetspot (or roll), aerial (up-air most probably) if he's trying to just get on the stage.
• Dash attack only really leads into things above 40%. Don't do dash attacks at low percentages.

What to Avoid:

• BEING IMPATIENT. This matchup is about 0-to-deaths, which means one bad move in neutral can be the end. Be calm, and don't just throw out attacks because you can. Be ready for some movement shenanigans from both sides.
• Being above DK. DK's nair and up air are really good moves, and Sheik struggles hitting downwards.
• Spamming needles. Needles make you a sitting duck, or a sitting ninja. They let DK get in. Use them, as having a projectile is an advantage, but remember that the DK will be looking for your needles as an opportunity to approach with AC bairs/well spaced d-tilts
• Jumping out of up-air strings. Up-air autocancels. Resist the urge to immediately jump out, as you'll just take more damage.
• Unsafe Shield Approaches. DK can grab you if you poorly space an f-tilt. His Schwarzenegger arms are huge. Be very careful when hitting his shield with a move. However, grabbing is generally safe because DK's spot-dodge is slower than getting anything to pass in Congress.
• Teching Predictably. DK is actually pretty decent at pressuring you when you're on the ground. Down-b is good at catching tech-aways, and grab reaches very far. This isn't obviously including platform techs.

Extras:

• DI cargo side-throw away. This way, he won't get a follow-up.

• Learn to shield-drop. This is a great way for you to get down from platforms when DK is punishing you from under

• If you're bad at the side-throw mixup, generally assume that the DK player is throwing you away from the stage. This way, if you do get hit, you'll take the long route the blast zone.

• Work on your Movement. You need to be confident mixing in your wavedashes with you dash-dance to extend your dash-dance and improve Sheik's mobility overall.

• Don't feel pressured to approach because DK's charging Donkey Punch. DK's charge can be a bait for him to get better positioning. Instead, be patient and try and predict when he's going to do bad charges.
• SDI his up-air strings. It might make the difference of taking one up-air less.

Cool Videos:

• Junebug vs. ThundeRzReiGN (3.6) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3LTYynjgdQ
• Nicaboy vs. BrassMonkey (3.6) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDNTumv_0po

Author — Tarul

 

[Setton]

As a Squirtle main and a Sheik/Peach secondary who also plays against Sheik a lot, the matchup is in Squirtle's favor. Every Squirtle agrees on it really. Squirtle has a better neutral and can move around Sheik well, and needles don't stuff him on the ground well because he's small. But, if the Squirtle is at the right angle offstage aerial needles can really hurt. Sheik can edgegaurd him pretty well with invincible aerials and needles for up special and can hit him out of withdraw (side special) with fair and kill him. Also, Squirtle's weight/fall speed doesn't really stop Sheik from comboing, you can get some good stuff on him. He can get some good combos on Sheik too though. Also be aware Squirtle is great on PS2.

 

[Tarul]

Don't take Squirtle to stages with small side blastzones. You're going to regret it.

I've found that the best thing to do against Squirtle players is to just be patient. Given a certain amount of time, the Squirtle player is just going to charge at you with hydrosling -> aerial/poke. Nair seems to be pretty good at stuffing his aerials,

I'm not really sure how to beat d-tilt, though.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Don't take Squirtle to stages with small side blastzones. You're going to regret it.

I've found that the best thing to do against Squirtle players is to just be patient. Given a certain amount of time, the Squirtle player is just going to charge at you with hydrosling -> aerial/poke. Nair seems to be pretty good at stuffing his aerials,

I'm not really sure how to beat d-tilt, though.

You can try to CC D-Tilt. I agree with the being patient part also. Download his habits and take advantage.

 

[Tarul]

After having played the Ness matchup more recently, I'm starting to think that this matchup is closer to a 60:40 or a 65:35 in Sheik's favor.

Run up -> shield really destroys Ness' neutral game, as he can't safely do anything to your shield. Ness' punish game feels bad (chain grabs and up-air strings for days), but Sheik also punishes Ness fairly well.

Also, edgeguarding Ness is stupidly easy thanks to bair, needles, and d-smash.

---------------------------------------------------

Unrelated, but I've been playing against Ivysaur lately, and have been having trouble with d-tilt. How am I supposed to deal with her d-tilt? If she spaces it, it seems like I can only really needle to punish. If I avoid a spaced d-tilt and rush in with a boost grab, jab usually hits me. Does wavedash OoS -> jab work? F-tilt feels like it takes too long.

 

[4tlas]

After having played the Ness matchup more recently, I'm starting to think that this matchup is closer to a 60:40 or a 65:35 in Sheik's favor.

Run up -> shield really destroys Ness' neutral game, as he can't safely do anything to your shield. Ness' punish game feels bad (chain grabs and up-air strings for days), but Sheik also punishes Ness fairly well.

Also, edgeguarding Ness is stupidly easy thanks to bair, needles, and d-smash.

---------------------------------------------------

Unrelated, but I've been playing against Ivysaur lately, and have been having trouble with d-tilt. How am I supposed to deal with her d-tilt? If she spaces it, it seems like I can only really needle to punish. If I avoid a spaced d-tilt and rush in with a boost grab, jab usually hits me. Does wavedash OoS -> jab work? F-tilt feels like it takes too long.

Ness' (and Sheik's somewhat) punish game is so critical to his success that its hard to tell what win ratios are correct. You don't play Ness, so how can you tell if their punish game is optimized yet? But yes, Sheik should do well in the neutral here, which should probably equate to some sort of positive matchup.

Just about the only option I can think of that isn't needle camping would be to run in with a shield, sliding past the max range of the dtilt and into your shield grab range. Then it becomes a mixup of waiting for when Ivy jabs or grabbing her, though sometimes I'm able to react to the start of her grab animation and dodge it. I find this very tough as well, and usually will just needle camp or switch to Zelda, who also has a bad time with this.

 

[Tarul]

Ness' (and Sheik's somewhat) punish game is so critical to his success that its hard to tell what win ratios are correct.

I'm actually assuming that Ness is more or less able to get 0-to-deaths off his grabs at low percents. Sheik's punish game is just very comparable thanks to Ness' not-very-good techs, juicy weight, and super easy edgeguard.

The thing is that Ness really struggles in neutral versus Sheik. He has no positive shield pressure outside of DJC out of magnet (which leads to a negative move) and a very late PK fire on shield (which is actually punishable on reaction). Couple this with the fact that Ness has fairly mediocre CC options, and the matchup starts to skew heavily towards Sheik.

Obviously, the game is still developing, so whatever's said now isn't set in stone. However, it doesn't hurt to start debating the matchup in its current stage because the Ness meta is already largely developed.

As the Ness meta develops, so will the matchup and the matchup notes. It's just nice to have a ratio to give a sense of how the matchup feels, and whether or not a player should consider alternative characters if they dual-main (which is increasingly common in PM)

I find this very tough as well, and usually will just needle camp or switch to Zelda, who also has a bad time with this.

What percentages and neutral scenarios does Zelda do well against Ivysaur? Normally being a floatie is great, but I feel like Zelda's fall speed would just make her more likely to die to up-air at low percentages.

 

[4tlas]

I'm actually assuming that Ness is more or less able to get 0-to-deaths off his grabs at low percents. Sheik's punish game is just very comparable thanks to Ness' not-very-good techs, juicy weight, and super easy edgeguard.

The thing is that Ness really struggles in neutral versus Sheik. He has no positive shield pressure outside of DJC out of magnet (which leads to a negative move) and a very late PK fire on shield (which is actually punishable on reaction). Couple this with the fact that Ness has fairly mediocre CC options, and the matchup starts to skew heavily towards Sheik.

Obviously, the game is still developing, so whatever's said now isn't set in stone. However, it doesn't hurt to start debating the matchup in its current stage because the Ness meta is already largely developed.

As the Ness meta develops, so will the matchup and the matchup notes. It's just nice to have a ratio to give a sense of how the matchup feels, and whether or not a player should consider alternative characters if they dual-main (which is increasingly common in PM)



What percentages and neutral scenarios does Zelda do well against Ivysaur? Normally being a floatie is great, but I feel like Zelda's fall speed would just make her more likely to die to up-air at low percentages.

I agree with the assessment in principle, I'm simply saying that numbers are very hard to pin down.

Zelda doesn't do well against Ivysaur, pretty much at all. She's super slow so its difficult to get past the disjoints, and she gets killed really easily by upair sweetspot or downB/upB, so its also difficult to get back down even when you get out of juggles. If you're up in stocks and Ivy is forced to approach, Zelda has a very good chance to beat the crap out of Ivy.

Mostly I switch because I play both in every match, and because it confuses my opponent heavily. I'm much more practiced at adapting to the new neutral and combo options than they are, so there's always some value. Also in some matchups Zelda doesn't get combo'd early and Sheik doesn't get combo'd late, but vs Ivy that doesn't matter =(

 

[Taytertot]

im curious about sheik's gameplan, as someone who doesnt get to play sheik's very often and didnt start following melee heavily until more recently, i dont really understand sheik as an archetype. Im sure sheik doesnt fit into one archetype perfectly but i know that sheik has a solid defense, great combos, great edgeguard tools and the tech chases but its hard for me to put the entirety of sheik into a tangible entity and because of this i find her difficult to fight. Anyone mind enlightening me despite it being a terribly stupid question? (hopefully my question actually makes sense)

 

[Protosauce]

Mostly I switch because I play both in every match, and because it confuses my opponent heavily. I'm much more practiced at adapting to the new neutral and combo options than they are, so there's always some value. Also in some matchups Zelda doesn't get combo'd early and Sheik doesn't get combo'd late, but vs Ivy that doesn't matter =(

This weekend I learned that you can force ivy to approach by b-reverse land-cancellin naryu(I think? Maybe I'm trippin. I'm talking about Her neutral b reflect) in neutral. Shuts down her razor leaf, which I hav , hard time getting around as Shiek. By b-reverseing while running towards her, it keeps the distance spacing if she sprints in for any follow up. Still a hard MU tho. Just my toonie.

 

[4tlas]

This weekend I learned that you can force ivy to approach by b-reverse land-cancellin naryu(I think? Maybe I'm trippin. I'm talking about Her neutral b reflect) in neutral. Shuts down her razor leaf, which I hav , hard time getting around as Shiek. By b-reverseing while running towards her, it keeps the distance spacing if she sprints in for any follow up. Still a hard MU tho. Just my toonie.

I can do that vs Razor leaf, but I can also just needle storm through it. And B-reverse land-cancel Nayru's Love just negates Razor Leaf, it still doesn't help Zelda get in on Ivy.

You cannot force Ivy to approach until she has Solarbeam, at which point you're in trouble anyway. Its the same with Wario.

 

[Protosauce]

That is a fair point. I guess the ivysaur I played was just hyper agressive, and dident want to not approach, now that I think about it. My bad.

 

[4tlas]

That is a fair point. I guess the ivysaur I played was just hyper agressive, and dident want to not approach, now that I think about it. My bad.

No worries. Analysis and observation will only succeed if you try. Besides, this game is all about beating your opponent. If they don't play "optimally" you don't need to either. Notice and counter what THEY do and you'll be much better off than if you read some matchup guides.

 

[Tarul]

im curious about sheik's gameplan, as someone who doesnt get to play sheik's very often and didnt start following melee heavily until more recently, i dont really understand sheik as an archetype. Im sure sheik doesnt fit into one archetype perfectly but i know that sheik has a solid defense, great combos, great edgeguard tools and the tech chases but its hard for me to put the entirety of sheik into a tangible entity and because of this i find her difficult to fight. Anyone mind enlightening me despite it being a terribly stupid question? (hopefully my question actually makes sense)

It really is kind of hard to put Sheik into an archetype, because she does everything. She has a projectile, speed, good frame data, combo... the whole shebang.

A good way to describe Sheik is as a space-control character. Sheik accels at holding space thanks to her quick and strong moves in conjunction with her projectile, and can make small adjustments to maintain her space thanks to her speed. However, Sheik struggles at approaching because of her lack of a dash dance and high short hop. However, she still CAN approach- it just has to be slower and more methodical than other DD-central characters.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik is a defensive and reactive character, as opposed to an offense and proactive character, like say fox. keep in mind these are relative modeling terms so if youre mediocre, sheik can totally murder you. but assuming top level play and a MU thats close ish, sheik has to be fairly conservative in her neutral play and her gameplan changes constantly to negotiate what the opponent is doing. this means that if the sheik player doesnt know the MU she can get doodle bopped pretty easily (happens to me all the time lol)

proper sheik will play differently against you depending on your character and what you do. the tl;dr for sheik is wd back and throw needles until you can do things that combo into fair, but thats mostly just the most common and basic play for her. you'll have to be more specific if youre looking for holes

 

[Taytertot]

It really is kind of hard to put Sheik into an archetype, because she does everything. She has a projectile, speed, good frame data, combo... the whole shebang.

A good way to describe Sheik is as a space-control character. Sheik accels at holding space thanks to her quick and strong moves in conjunction with her projectile, and can make small adjustments to maintain her space thanks to her speed. However, Sheik struggles at approaching because of her lack of a dash dance and high short hop. However, she still CAN approach- it just has to be slower and more methodical than other DD-central characters.

sheik is a defensive and reactive character, as opposed to an offense and proactive character, like say fox. keep in mind these are relative modeling terms so if youre mediocre, sheik can totally murder you. but assuming top level play and a MU thats close ish, sheik has to be fairly conservative in her neutral play and her gameplan changes constantly to negotiate what the opponent is doing. this means that if the sheik player doesnt know the MU she can get doodle bopped pretty easily (happens to me all the time lol)

proper sheik will play differently against you depending on your character and what you do. the tl;dr for sheik is wd back and throw needles until you can do things that combo into fair, but thats mostly just the most common and basic play for her. you'll have to be more specific if youre looking for holes

thank you both this definitely helps. i am a roy main and i know ive talked about the matchup on the roy threads, but with how little practice i get playing against sheiks i find myself still getting stuffed easily and not sure how to force sheik to make mistakes in neutral (granted the only sheik i do get to play with consistently gets top 3 at my locals so he's a better player then myself.).
are there any approach options that i have as roy that would force sheik to make a heavy commitment? cause ftilt and jab isnt that much of a commitment and i could get hit trying to punish them unless im missing something and needles arent super punishable for me without a super hard read that would put me in a rather poor position if i guessed wrong on when the needles would be used.
I suppose i could dash in just outside of ftilt range and crouch in hopes that he throws out an ftilt which i could then punish with roy's dtilt but if i dont bait anything out then he could shield the dtilt and reset neutral or read my dtilt and punish. id prefer a better trap then that if possible.

 

[Kneato]

Format- Character: Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has Sheik winning)

:-2

:-1

:-1

:0

:0

:0

:0

:+1

:0

:0

:-1

:0

:0

:0

:-1

:0

:+3

:+2

:+1

:0

:?

:0

:+1

:0

:0

:+3

:+1

:+2

:+3

:0

:+1

:0

:-1

:+2

:+2

:0

:-1

:+2

:+1

:+3

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate? What about the Squirtle matchup?

 

[4tlas]

Squirtle is in Squirtle's favor, somewhere between -2 and -1. I find it very hard to believe Jiggs is -1 (would make +1), Wario is +1 (would make 0), Ivy is +3 (would make +2), and DDD is -1 (would make +1).

Basically, if they're big or slow, Sheik destroys them. If they've got disjoint its a skill matchup. If they are stupid fast or otherwise have an amazing neutral game, its bad. If one character is favored slightly but the other has a ludicrous punish game, its even.

Obviously there are exceptions, but I think thats pretty true.

 

[Tarul]

I actually have quite a few changes for this chart.

Format- Character: Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has Sheik winning)

:-2

:-1

:-1

:+1

:0

:0

:0

:+1

:+2

:0

:-1

:+2

:0

:+1

:+1

:+1

:+3

:+2

:+2

:0

:-1

:0

:0

:0

:+2

:+2

:+1

:+2

:+2

:+1

:+1

:+2

:0

:+2

:+3

:-1

:0

:+2

:+1

:+3

Major changes:

• has a hard time dealing with needles, is easily tech chased, and is edgeguarded decently by bair.
• 's projectiles are all defeated by needles. Good item control also helps shift this matchup into Sheik's favor
  
• has a hard time getting away from Sheik when Sheik gets in, and Sheik is one of the few characters who can get in and punish Mario's fireballs. Even to +1, IMO
  
• 's tiny hurtbox and great movement messes with Sheik's neutral. Luckily, he gets obliterated by fair and grabs, but getting the first hit is tricky. Might even be a -2
  
• is a light and comboable character with terrible get-off-me options, an awful recovery, and a decent neutral. He kinda likes to space like Marth.... Except he's a lot slower. Pikmin are excellent projectiles, but again, Sheik can easily close space / slap the Pikmin away.
  
• 's projectile loses to needles and does not get land-cancelled. His combos are susceptible to SDI, and he gets destroyed by Sheik by throws and tilts if he ever gets hit. If he falls off stage, it's also very unlikely that he's coming back.
  
• loses to hitboxes, and Sheik is pretty good at putting out hitboxes. This matchup might change as Sonic's optimize his punish game with homing attack.
  
• seems about even. Sheik's ability to get in his space is mitigated by his survivability and his ability to air camp. His up-b is destroyed by needles and fair, and he gets comboed pretty hard.
  
• has a hard time against needles, has terribles techs, easily comboed, and can actually be edgeguarded by Sheik. He is like a polarized Marth with an emphasis on punish, but his punish isn't good enough to change the fact that Sheik wins neutral harder and also punishes well

 

[Tarul]

I actually have quite a few changes for this chart.

Format- Character: Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has Sheik winning)

:-2

:-1

:-1

:+1

:0

:0

:0

:+1

:+1

:0

:-1

:+2

:0

:+1

:+1

:+1

:+3

:+2

:+2

:0

:-1

:0

:0

:0

:+2

:+2

:+1

:+2

:+2

:+1

:+1

:+2

:0

:+2

:+3

:-1

:0

:+2

:+1

:+3

Major changes:

• has a hard time dealing with needles, is easily tech chased, and is edgeguarded decently by bair.
• 's projectiles are all defeated by needles. Good item control also helps shift this matchup into Sheik's favor
  
• has a hard time getting away from Sheik when Sheik gets in, and Sheik is one of the few characters who can get in and punish Mario's fireballs. Even to +1, IMO
  
• 's tiny hurtbox and great movement messes with Sheik's neutral. Luckily, he gets obliterated by fair and grabs, but getting the first hit is tricky. Might even be a -2
  
• is a light and comboable character with terrible get-off-me options, an awful recovery, and a decent neutral. He kinda likes to space like Marth.... Except he's a lot slower. Pikmin are excellent projectiles, but again, Sheik can easily close space / slap the Pikmin away.
  
• 's projectile loses to needles and does not get land-cancelled. His combos are susceptible to SDI, and he gets destroyed by Sheik by throws and tilts if he ever gets hit. If he falls off stage, it's also very unlikely that he's coming back.
  
• loses to hitboxes, and Sheik is pretty good at putting out hitboxes. This matchup might change as Sonic's optimize his punish game with homing attack.
  
• seems about even. Sheik's ability to get in his space is mitigated by his survivability and his ability to air camp. His up-b is destroyed by needles and fair, and he gets comboed pretty hard.
  
• has a hard time against needles, has terribles techs, easily comboed, and can actually be edgeguarded by Sheik. He is like a polarized Marth with an emphasis on punish, but his punish isn't good enough to change the fact that Sheik wins neutral harder and also punishes well
• has a very similar threat zone to Sheik. However, her options are slower and more punishable. Also, Sheik's needles snipe bombs, which really damages Samus' recovery and tankiness.
  
• has a hard time against bair. In Melee, Sheik had to hope that Jiggs would run into her bairs and other spaced aerials. RAR in PM fixes this.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I actually have quite a few changes for this chart.

Format- Character: Matchup from

's Perspective (+3 has Sheik winning)

:-2

:-1

:-1

:+1

:0

:0

:0

:+1

:+1

:0

:-1

:+2

:0

:+1

:+1

:+1

:+3

:+2

:+2

:0

:-1

:0

:0

:0

:+2

:+2

:+1

:+2

:+2

:+1

:+1

:+2

:0

:+2

:+3

:-1

:0

:+2

:+1

:+3

Major changes:

• has a hard time dealing with needles, is easily tech chased, and is edgeguarded decently by bair.
• 's projectiles are all defeated by needles. Good item control also helps shift this matchup into Sheik's favor
  
• has a hard time getting away from Sheik when Sheik gets in, and Sheik is one of the few characters who can get in and punish Mario's fireballs. Even to +1, IMO
  
• 's tiny hurtbox and great movement messes with Sheik's neutral. Luckily, he gets obliterated by fair and grabs, but getting the first hit is tricky. Might even be a -2
  
• is a light and comboable character with terrible get-off-me options, an awful recovery, and a decent neutral. He kinda likes to space like Marth.... Except he's a lot slower. Pikmin are excellent projectiles, but again, Sheik can easily close space / slap the Pikmin away.
  
• 's projectile loses to needles and does not get land-cancelled. His combos are susceptible to SDI, and he gets destroyed by Sheik by throws and tilts if he ever gets hit. If he falls off stage, it's also very unlikely that he's coming back.
  
• loses to hitboxes, and Sheik is pretty good at putting out hitboxes. This matchup might change as Sonic's optimize his punish game with homing attack.
  
• seems about even. Sheik's ability to get in his space is mitigated by his survivability and his ability to air camp. His up-b is destroyed by needles and fair, and he gets comboed pretty hard.
  
• has a hard time against needles, has terribles techs, easily comboed, and can actually be edgeguarded by Sheik. He is like a polarized Marth with an emphasis on punish, but his punish isn't good enough to change the fact that Sheik wins neutral harder and also punishes well
• has a very similar threat zone to Sheik. However, her options are slower and more punishable. Also, Sheik's needles snipe bombs, which really damages Samus' recovery and tankiness.
  
• has a hard time against bair. In Melee, Sheik had to hope that Jiggs would run into her bairs and other spaced aerials. RAR in PM fixes this.

I've seen your posts on the Sheik boards and I've got to say I like what I see. I've learned stuff. That being said, I disagree on a few points, notably Sonic, MK, and Yoshi, as well as Snake and Link to some degree.

Sonic has bad hitboxes. That's right. However, he has the means to crack the tight windows of vulnerability in Sheik's walls (AC fair, bair, nair oos, ftilt, jab, aerial needles). Any grounded options can be beat by a fair punishing end lag (among other punishes, although shffl fair is the easiest). Sheik is a perfect combo weight for Sonic and gets shredded trying to recover. Using big hitboxes as Sheik against Sonic is like trying to stuff Falcon; use a grounded move and miss, lose the stock. Using needles against Sonic is awkward outside of platform needles since her legs are vulnerable. I'd actually like to do a lot of talking about this MU.

I'm not sure about Yoshi being free either. Admittedly I've got a lot to work on in the matchup evidenced by my last two sets against our resident Yoshi Melee (where I play Sheik) PR member (but I'm getting there!) but with platforms I think Yoshi has a chance against needles and his punishes are quite good.

Snake; I've seen Jaden vs Flipp and it looks pretty even, if not at least closer to even. It could have been a lot of outplaying/MU inexperience but Sheik's transform jank only goes so far compared to his dair (infinites?)

MK; I think this is approaching Fox levels of difficulty and is definitely harder than Falco (especially with the laser damage output nerfs in the transition). Sheik has food comboes but the neutral is stacked way in MK's favour; think Fox CC, Marth pokes and Sheik frame data and it's a recipe for disaster unless you can find some clutch gimps (that are unreliable when they know the MU). Switch to Roy if you have one (as you should). Easy plus 2. If not, Zelda does okay (better than Sheik) against MK because of kill power, recovery mixups and cheeky dsmashes.

I'm not sure that Link is a plus three either, probably plus 2 but getting grabbed can mean the stock. I know I'm playing this one too aggressively and putting myself in too much lag instead of playing a more reductive approach but I'm not yet ready to admit it to myself lol! Gotta stop trying to steamroll him.

I have my suspicions about Roy being so easy (probably -1.5?) but I want to try my hand at the MU a little more with a more optimized Sheik.

 

[Tarul]

I've seen your posts on the Sheik boards and I've got to say I like what I see. I've learned stuff. That being said, I disagree on a few points, notably Sonic, MK, and Yoshi, as well as Snake and Link to some degree.

Sonic has bad hitboxes. That's right. However, he has the means to crack the tight windows of vulnerability in Sheik's walls (AC fair, bair, nair oos, ftilt, jab, aerial needles). Any grounded options can be beat by a fair punishing end lag (among other punishes, although shffl fair is the easiest). Sheik is a perfect combo weight for Sonic and gets shredded trying to recover. Using big hitboxes as Sheik against Sonic is like trying to stuff Falcon; use a grounded move and miss, lose the stock. Using needles against Sonic is awkward outside of platform needles since her legs are vulnerable. I'd actually like to do a lot of talking about this MU.

I'm not sure about Yoshi being free either. Admittedly I've got a lot to work on in the matchup evidenced by my last two sets against our resident Yoshi Melee (where I play Sheik) PR member (but I'm getting there!) but with platforms I think Yoshi has a chance against needles and his punishes are quite good.

Snake; I've seen Jaden vs Flipp and it looks pretty even, if not at least closer to even. It could have been a lot of outplaying/MU inexperience but Sheik's transform jank only goes so far compared to his dair (infinites?)

MK; I think this is approaching Fox levels of difficulty and is definitely harder than Falco (especially with the laser damage output nerfs in the transition). Sheik has food comboes but the neutral is stacked way in MK's favour; think Fox CC, Marth pokes and Sheik frame data and it's a recipe for disaster unless you can find some clutch gimps (that are unreliable when they know the MU). Switch to Roy if you have one (as you should). Easy plus 2. If not, Zelda does okay (better than Sheik) against MK because of kill power, recovery mixups and cheeky dsmashes.

I'm not sure that Link is a plus three either, probably plus 2 but getting grabbed can mean the stock. I know I'm playing this one too aggressively and putting myself in too much lag instead of playing a more reductive approach but I'm not yet ready to admit it to myself lol! Gotta stop trying to steamroll him.

I have my suspicions about Roy being so easy (probably -1.5?) but I want to try my hand at the MU a little more with a more optimized Sheik.

• While Sonic does have the tools to get in and expose Sheik, he does get punished fairly hard if he messes up. His juicy weight, combined with his terrible tech rolls and easily edgeguardable recovery (for Sheik) means that getting hit can be death. Also, Sonic has to take risks in neutral because Sheik can force him to approach with needles, and can stuff out bad approaches on reaction with tilts. Obviously, Sonic can circumvent it with his good movement speed and aerial mobility, but that describes the metagame in general. Honestly, this matchup feels very similar to the Falcon matchup, except Sonic doesn't get that much more survivability to make up for the fact that Falcon has a better punish game on Sheik (up-throw -> knee guaranteed at around 80% and means insta-death) and the fact that Falcon has a little more leeway in neutral since nair has a pretty good hitbox. Sonic has to be very tight with his dash dancing and neutral, so I think +1 is a fair assessment of the matchup. I haven't played against any amazing Sonics though, so I could definitely be proven wrong!
  
• I actually have a fair amount of MK experience since I've played against EclipseKirby, Dawn, and a few other MKs (seems like everyone has a MK secondary lol). I definitely agree that neutral absolutely sucks against MK. D-tilt is the bane of our existence, and we struggle to compete against him. However, MK really doesn't have a great answer for needle camping, since his sword is transcendent (for example, when aerial needle camping Marth, Marth can just fair through needles because the sword will take the needles and then Sheik out with the swing. MK can't do that, and has to actually get to Sheik). Obviously, aerial needleing willy-nilly is very punishable, but knowing that MK is a disjointed character that has a harder* time against needles definitely helps. In terms of punish game, we absolutely body MK. Tech-chasing him is easy, and everything leads to anything. Unlike the spacies, we can chaingrab him on bad DI, and he doesn't have a frame 1 move to break out of combos (which is helpful). Finally, Sheik is fairly good at edgeguarding MK. Needles can hit him while he's neutral b'ing or side-bing, forcing him to lose his jumps. Bair and nair are great hitboxes that will trade with side-b, which spells death for MK. So, yes, while MK's neutral game is bad, it's not spacie level bad with shine and projectiles. His punish game is good, but it's also not as strong as the spacies as well (good DI on MK means he generally has to get for tech-chase situations/ 1-2 hit strings unless he manages to get you in an up-air situation. Good SDI REALLY helps here). Ultimately, I think this matchup boils down to good movement. You want to force MK to make a move in neutral with needles, and then try to pick him off with AC fair/grab/f-tilt. When you land a hit in neutral, you convert extremely hard, and Sheik's neutral is decent enough to make it a -1 imo.
  
• Snake is probably a +2. Needles beat grenade in neutral, which forces Snake to approach (something he's not good terrible at). When Snake gets close Sheik, just ends up doing betters since her moves are quicker and strong as well. We are the only character to have counterplay to sticks, and can also use mines to our advantage, by forcing opponents to tech/move in limited range. That said, we have to make sure to respect Snake's crouch, up-smash and shield since these are extremely strong. However, since we have a better neutral and also punish Snake hard when we get a hit (and can actually edge guard him decently too by either going deep or hitting him when he detonates C4 on himself), I think this matchup looks pretty Sheik-sided.
  
• His techs are pretty atrocious, and we can also break armor at respectable percents thanks to bair and fair. Yoshi gets a lot when he gets a hit in neutral, but his neutral just isn't that solid outside of good platform movement/DJ armor. Yoshi is very scary when he gets the hit, but so are we when we land a grab/ good aerial on him. Yoshi either wants to land a grab (super punishable on whiff, which is fairly reasonable since you should be forcing Yoshi to approach) or trade with a tilt/aerial, and Sheik is pretty good at dealing with these types of characters due to her quick frame data.
  
• You're probably right on this one - +2 seems reasonable. When link lands a hit/grab on Sheik, he goes to town. It's just extremely difficult since needles beat his projectiles and we also win the close-range neutral. Link can try to space with his sword, but he's not exactly a Marth. His moves are punishable from shield and are pretty slow as well. Overall, this matchup just feels pretty bad for the Hylian hero.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

• While Sonic does have the tools to get in and expose Sheik, he does get punished fairly hard if he messes up. His juicy weight, combined with his terrible tech rolls and easily edgeguardable recovery (for Sheik) means that getting hit can be death. Also, Sonic has to take risks in neutral because Sheik can force him to approach with needles, and can stuff out bad approaches on reaction with tilts. Obviously, Sonic can circumvent it with his good movement speed and aerial mobility, but that describes the metagame in general. Honestly, this matchup feels very similar to the Falcon matchup, except Sonic doesn't get that much more survivability to make up for the fact that Falcon has a better punish game on Sheik (up-throw -> knee guaranteed at around 80% and means insta-death) and the fact that Falcon has a little more leeway in neutral since nair has a pretty good hitbox. Sonic has to be very tight with his dash dancing and neutral, so I think +1 is a fair assessment of the matchup. I haven't played against any amazing Sonics though, so I could definitely be proven wrong!
  
• I actually have a fair amount of MK experience since I've played against EclipseKirby, Dawn, and a few other MKs (seems like everyone has a MK secondary lol). I definitely agree that neutral absolutely sucks against MK. D-tilt is the bane of our existence, and we struggle to compete against him. However, MK really doesn't have a great answer for needle camping, since his sword is transcendent (for example, when aerial needle camping Marth, Marth can just fair through needles because the sword will take the needles and then Sheik out with the swing. MK can't do that, and has to actually get to Sheik). Obviously, aerial needleing willy-nilly is very punishable, but knowing that MK is a disjointed character that has a harder* time against needles definitely helps. In terms of punish game, we absolutely body MK. Tech-chasing him is easy, and everything leads to anything. Unlike the spacies, we can chaingrab him on bad DI, and he doesn't have a frame 1 move to break out of combos (which is helpful). Finally, Sheik is fairly good at edgeguarding MK. Needles can hit him while he's neutral b'ing or side-bing, forcing him to lose his jumps. Bair and nair are great hitboxes that will trade with side-b, which spells death for MK. So, yes, while MK's neutral game is bad, it's not spacie level bad with shine and projectiles. His punish game is good, but it's also not as strong as the spacies as well (good DI on MK means he generally has to get for tech-chase situations/ 1-2 hit strings unless he manages to get you in an up-air situation. Good SDI REALLY helps here). Ultimately, I think this matchup boils down to good movement. You want to force MK to make a move in neutral with needles, and then try to pick him off with AC fair/grab/f-tilt. When you land a hit in neutral, you convert extremely hard, and Sheik's neutral is decent enough to make it a -1 imo.
  
• Snake is probably a +2. Needles beat grenade in neutral, which forces Snake to approach (something he's not good terrible at). When Snake gets close Sheik, just ends up doing betters since her moves are quicker and strong as well. We are the only character to have counterplay to sticks, and can also use mines to our advantage, by forcing opponents to tech/move in limited range. That said, we have to make sure to respect Snake's crouch, up-smash and shield since these are extremely strong. However, since we have a better neutral and also punish Snake hard when we get a hit (and can actually edge guard him decently too by either going deep or hitting him when he detonates C4 on himself), I think this matchup looks pretty Sheik-sided.
  
• His techs are pretty atrocious, and we can also break armor at respectable percents thanks to bair and fair. Yoshi gets a lot when he gets a hit in neutral, but his neutral just isn't that solid outside of good platform movement/DJ armor. Yoshi is very scary when he gets the hit, but so are we when we land a grab/ good aerial on him. Yoshi either wants to land a grab (super punishable on whiff, which is fairly reasonable since you should be forcing Yoshi to approach) or trade with a tilt/aerial, and Sheik is pretty good at dealing with these types of characters due to her quick frame data.
  
• You're probably right on this one - +2 seems reasonable. When link lands a hit/grab on Sheik, he goes to town. It's just extremely difficult since needles beat his projectiles and we also win the close-range neutral. Link can try to space with his sword, but he's not exactly a Marth. His moves are punishable from shield and are pretty slow as well. Overall, this matchup just feels pretty bad for the Hylian hero.

The differences between the Falcon/Sheik MU and Sonic/Sheik MU are pretty important, although at a first glance they can easily go unnoticed (Sonic is quite obscure!). I think Sonic has quite a few ways to make aerial needles unsafe (although platform needles are a lot safer) since he's so quick; he can run under needles and punish if they're misspaced or wait until her landing (initially respecting the storm) and then either get a punish on landing or steal space and apply pressure. This is where it the difference between Sheik/Falcon and /Sonic start to come up. While Falcon's grounded options in run are pretty limited (basically just jc grab), Sonic has dsmash (which is great out of a CC, another area Falcon is generally weak in), side b (which leads into all sorts of lines of punishes), down b, blast attack (BA), jc grab, gatling grab (covers shield and puts out a hitbox on frame 2), shffl aerials (particularly sweetspot fair which leads into any punish you want really).

Of course, not all of these options are available to immediately punish needle camping and such (I got carried away explaining lol), but Sonic's got a lot of tools to convert from neutral into punish game and that's what makes it extremely difficult for Sheik: her zoning isn't completely safe (head and legs from below exposed in general) and she hates good CC options, which Sonic has in plenty. Against Falcon, Sheik generally only has to look for nair and grab, and be aware of other things like stomp, knee, and raptor boost. A smart Sonic who mixes up what he's doing is a lot less telegraphed (you can react to Falcon's shffls, but can't stuff on reaction Sonic's grounded options which are a lot more ambiguous) and therefore it takes a lot more mental game and luck for Sheik to beat Sonic vs beat Falcon.

Sheik is also hella easy to juggle and edge guard as we all know. I'm not sure how easy Sheik can edge guard Sonics who know how to take full advantage of spinshots and side b pullbacks (and who know how to sweetspot amirite?), but I'm sure grab ledge bair is great at dealing with low recoveries. How do you generally edge guard Sonic's recovery going high?

Sheik has a great punish game on Sonic I'm sure (great grab follow ups, great tech chasing); I'm just wondering how easy it is for you to get a grab or set up a tech scenario outside of throws at low percents. I'm also curious how well Sheik juggles Sonic at mid --> mid-high percents since he's so floaty and really only has to worry about being killed off the top because of his good recovery (unless I'm underestimating her edge guards; then it becomes a lot more tricky).


As for MK, I'm glad that you mentioned needles because honestly that's the only thing I think keeps Sheik in the game. Otherwise I'd think it's impossible at a high level. Unless the needles are absolute crap (or are read), they're pretty safe and set up for throw comboes (which ideally are a zero death; if you don't get the regrab surely you should be able to react to the tech option). I also think that if you find MK offstage that nair is a good option to stuff his recoveries (none of which are disjointed except Shuttle loop) (it initially surprised me you didn't mention it; it's his best option from below ledge, although it doesn't come up as much in this MU as it does in others I find), although needle gimps often net me kills at 30% or less. Punishes with uair and dair, and tilts are also really strong. MK is definitely the easiest combo weight in the game.
A cool kill confirm is bthrow DACUS at about 85%+. The thing is, he's got the options to both stuff grabs, infiltrate space with aerials we have to respect until landing, and a great CC to deal with any tilts for basically ever (plus great options out of CC).
Sheik by far wins the punish game in the MU even though MK has good edge guards, especially when SDIing even works on uairs - he'll never get more than two. Getting hit by uthrow dair at 70-80% is really annoying since he'll get at worst an edge guard which will likely be the stock.

Just want to say I think if he finds a way for you to shield through projectiles, zair, etc. that his jab is pretty safe because of its range and speed, like Samus. He can also fade back whenever he wants really.

I'm not convinced the MU is so simple. His CC dtilt is quite annoying to deal with, although it loses to aerial needles and quick, unpredictable aerials like AC fair. Obviously grab beats attack but a well timed dtilt will stuff us. Yoshi's dtilt is basically Marth's dtilt frame data-wise, and knockback wise. Although Yoshi doesn't have the best approach options neither does Sheik and I'd argue that Yoshi deals pretty okay with needle camping and is one of the best in the cast at edge guarding Sheik too. The loss of a guaranteed chainthrow hurts and the fact that he can jump out of shield now means that our tilts aren't safe either and neither are our needle grab setups.

I've always thought this MU was free af, but after watching that set (have you watched it?) I saw that Flipp was able to use platforms quite effectively and was able to live for a long time. Having the transform is really neat but that doesn't mean he can't get those kills out of a tranq or random fly by when we shield. Also, Snake has no problems killing Sheik himself, being able to rack up damage off of a dair chain extremely quickly.

 

[Tarul]

The differences between the Falcon/Sheik MU and Sonic/Sheik MU are pretty important, although at a first glance they can easily go unnoticed (Sonic is quite obscure!). I think Sonic has quite a few ways to make aerial needles unsafe (although platform needles are a lot safer) since he's so quick; he can run under needles and punish if they're misspaced or wait until her landing (initially respecting the storm) and then either get a punish on landing or steal space and apply pressure. This is where it the difference between Sheik/Falcon and /Sonic start to come up. While Falcon's grounded options in run are pretty limited (basically just jc grab), Sonic has dsmash (which is great out of a CC, another area Falcon is generally weak in), side b (which leads into all sorts of lines of punishes), down b, blast attack (BA), jc grab, gatling grab (covers shield and puts out a hitbox on frame 2), shffl aerials (particularly sweetspot fair which leads into any punish you want really).

Of course, not all of these options are available to immediately punish needle camping and such (I got carried away explaining lol), but Sonic's got a lot of tools to convert from neutral into punish game and that's what makes it extremely difficult for Sheik: her zoning isn't completely safe (head and legs from below exposed in general) and she hates good CC options, which Sonic has in plenty. Against Falcon, Sheik generally only has to look for nair and grab, and be aware of other things like stomp, knee, and raptor boost. A smart Sonic who mixes up what he's doing is a lot less telegraphed (you can react to Falcon's shffls, but can't stuff on reaction Sonic's grounded options which are a lot more ambiguous) and therefore it takes a lot more mental game and luck for Sheik to beat Sonic vs beat Falcon.

Sheik is also hella easy to juggle and edge guard as we all know. I'm not sure how easy Sheik can edge guard Sonics who know how to take full advantage of spinshots and side b pullbacks (and who know how to sweetspot amirite?), but I'm sure grab ledge bair is great at dealing with low recoveries. How do you generally edge guard Sonic's recovery going high?

Sheik has a great punish game on Sonic I'm sure (great grab follow ups, great tech chasing); I'm just wondering how easy it is for you to get a grab or set up a tech scenario outside of throws at low percents. I'm also curious how well Sheik juggles Sonic at mid --> mid-high percents since he's so floaty and really only has to worry about being killed off the top because of his good recovery (unless I'm underestimating her edge guards; then it becomes a lot more tricky).


As for MK, I'm glad that you mentioned needles because honestly that's the only thing I think keeps Sheik in the game. Otherwise I'd think it's impossible at a high level. Unless the needles are absolute crap (or are read), they're pretty safe and set up for throw comboes (which ideally are a zero death; if you don't get the regrab surely you should be able to react to the tech option). I also think that if you find MK offstage that nair is a good option to stuff his recoveries (none of which are disjointed except Shuttle loop) (it initially surprised me you didn't mention it; it's his best option from below ledge, although it doesn't come up as much in this MU as it does in others I find), although needle gimps often net me kills at 30% or less. Punishes with uair and dair, and tilts are also really strong. MK is definitely the easiest combo weight in the game.
A cool kill confirm is bthrow DACUS at about 85%+. The thing is, he's got the options to both stuff grabs, infiltrate space with aerials we have to respect until landing, and a great CC to deal with any tilts for basically ever (plus great options out of CC).
Sheik by far wins the punish game in the MU even though MK has good edge guards, especially when SDIing even works on uairs - he'll never get more than two. Getting hit by uthrow dair at 70-80% is really annoying since he'll get at worst an edge guard which will likely be the stock.

Just want to say I think if he finds a way for you to shield through projectiles, zair, etc. that his jab is pretty safe because of its range and speed, like Samus. He can also fade back whenever he wants really.

I'm not convinced the MU is so simple. His CC dtilt is quite annoying to deal with, although it loses to aerial needles and quick, unpredictable aerials like AC fair. Obviously grab beats attack but a well timed dtilt will stuff us. Yoshi's dtilt is basically Marth's dtilt frame data-wise, and knockback wise. Although Yoshi doesn't have the best approach options neither does Sheik and I'd argue that Yoshi deals pretty okay with needle camping and is one of the best in the cast at edge guarding Sheik too. The loss of a guaranteed chainthrow hurts and the fact that he can jump out of shield now means that our tilts aren't safe either and neither are our needle grab setups.

I've always thought this MU was free af, but after watching that set (have you watched it?) I saw that Flipp was able to use platforms quite effectively and was able to live for a long time. Having the transform is really neat but that doesn't mean he can't get those kills out of a tranq or random fly by when we shield. Also, Snake has no problems killing Sheik himself, being able to rack up damage off of a dair chain extremely quickly.

I can say from an edgeguarding perspective that Sheik has a pretty good time. If Sonic ever goes below stage level (unless he's right below edge), he has a hard time evading needles. This is especially problematic since side-b/down-b are defeated by needles. After that, it's a fairly easy ledgehop nair/bair to cover his recovery. As for above stage, Sonic's recovery becomes significantly stronger, and then it becomes a guessing game as to whether he's going high or going for ledge. However, Sonic doesn't get that much leeway because Sheik's moves outprioritze his (unlike Firefox, for example, which can sometimes trade), so if Sheik guesses correctly the hedgehog is toast. I find that nair/RAR bair on stage or up-air from ledge are pretty good options for covering a Sonic that goes high. Ultimately, when Sonic is above the stage when recovering, there's a decent chance he's going to make it back, though.

As for comboing, Sheik kinda destroys Sonic at mid-high percents. Sheik is actually pretty decent at getting 2 hit strings at mid-to-high percents on floaties, and Sonic is a semifloatie. After 120% it gets a bit rough, but it shouldn't ever get there. Sonic isn't that heavy, and f-tilt/d-tilt/grab mixup/frame 2 jab usually lead to up-air or fair. When he gets to higher percents, I usually just end up edgeguarding him, because he will have to recover from below the stage due to the way he was hit.

While it is true that Sonic has more options than Falcon in neutral (and if you think about it Falcon's neutral is really just stomp, nair, and grab, and crouching defeats nair and grab), Falcon gets significantly more from it. Falcon shouldn't be diving in willy nilly against Sheik- he should be aggressively be trying to bait out Sheik's moves, and then punish heavily since Sheik gets destroyed by Falcon combos. Sonic doesn't have that 1-touch-death that Falcon has (I am not convinced about Sonic's tech-chase; Sheik's tech roll is insanely good, and Sonic's grab range is small. Maybe in an optimal world, but in the human world, those have to be some extremely tight reaction skills), and as such needs to rely more on gimping/edgeguarding for stocks. I think that both matchups are +1 for Sheik because they give up something to optimize something else. Sonic has more options in neutral, a better gimp game than Falcon, and a better recovery but can tank less damage due to his weight. Falcon's fewer options are stronger (in that Nair/stomp, and grab are really good moves that can trade/do well against Sheik's), his punishes are harder, and he can tank more damage but gets bodied harder by edgeguarding.

Is b-throw to up-smash a DACUS or a regular upsmash? Also, do you have to tipper it in order to kill at 85%? I need to start doing this. I usually just fair'd/nair'd/bair'd because I assumed that MK was too much of a fast faller to die off the top.

I definitely agree that neutral is in favor of MK, and that he edgeguards Sheik pretty well. However, he still has to win more neutral situations than Sheik does because he doesn't convert that hard unless he manages to get Sheik in the air (in which case, I hope your SDI is godly). Just focus on being more careful in neutral with your attacks. You can't just throw out moves and pray against MK - your spacing has to be on point. But when you do get the grab/t-tilt, prepare for a rollercoaster of hurt. Staying grounded is key, and understand that the purpose of needles aren't to win neutral, but to force MK to make a move which you can (hopefully) react to/punish.

On flat stages, Yoshi has a really hard time dealing with aerial needles since he doesn't have a move that hits up and above. Aerial needles on shield should always work because Sheik should be lagless upon landing. If he's nairing, then your last needle is coming out too high. D-smash/f-tilt instead of grab to stuff them out.

I just went back and watched Flipp vs. Jaden in grandfinals and winners finals. I have to say, I've never seen someone incorporate the dair infinite as well as Flipp did. I always see Yata talk about it, but I didn't realize how doable it is.

That said, my opinion hasn't changed on the matchup. The punish game is stronger on Sheik than I had thought, but I think that the set showed that Jaden was on tilt. Just watching the player cam in game on wards in winners finals and Jaden's choice of using 4 different characters in grands shows that he was on tilt. After the dreamland game which he lost, he started rushing in a lot more instead of boxing out Snake/violating his zone, which lead to him getting punished hard. Most importantly, Jaden did a pretty poor job of edgeguarding Flipp below ledge. He almost always just aerial needled from ledge, which is cypher defeats. There are a couple of things I wanted to see Jaden incorporate when edgeguarding Flipp:

1. drop down bairs to hit Snake when he is close to the stage but not hugging the wall.
2. Needle snipes after snake drops the C4 but before he detonates (essentially disrupting the actual detonation of C4)
3. dropping down low and nairing back up to ledge repeatedly when Snake is C4'ing to tech against the Stage. If you catch him with an aerial, the knockbacks should stack and possibly kill Snake. He might still tech it or go high above the stage, but it's a lot harder to do.

That said, Jaden is an amazing player, and I don't want people to believe that I think that Jaden is garbage or something alike lol. I think that Flipp knew the matchup extremely well, and that Jaden went on tilt post game 3 on Dreamland (Snake's best stage in the matchup, imo).

Also, Jaden never transformed to get rid of C4. I thought this was kinda weird, considering that he actually has a usable Zelda. I guess he believed that the loss of neutral involved with playing Zelda/having to switch back was not worth the avoidance of a guaranteed kill setup, which is reasonable considering the combo potential of Snake.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

The edge guarding scenario you gave wasn't as complicated as I thought you'd have explained but it was reaffirming. The combo game I'm a little surprised that Sheik can get such mileage off of tilts at mid-high percents; never knew he was so juicy and liable to being air juggled/faired after DI away and such. I'm sure you can already tell by the tone of my message anyways but I haven't played a good Sheik in ages, especially in PM (Montreal uses Brawl characters mostly and Ottawa... has like no Sheiks, even in Melee). I however play Sheik so I'm able to talk about Sheik things. Back to Sonic though, I'm still pretty confident that Sonic's ability to draw reactions from Sheik - feign approaches or go in, and scout out Sheik's tendencies - in a varied and unpredictable way gives him the advantage in neutral. All Sonics I've talked to are confident it is +/- 0 or +1, although -1 is by no means out to lunch and I personally think Sonics can circle jerk sometimes (as do any character boards imo).

I have tons and tons of experience against this character (main training partner is "the MK" of Ottawa and one of the best PM players here besides that), so I've logged quite a few hours into this character with at least six characters (training him and myself) and I understand the SDI really well. That said, I also know my punish game against him really well to the point where with some characters it is 0-deaths 50% of the time, like with Roy. That, or at least 60% damage on him. As far as the bthrow usmash goes, I've been told the setup works best with a DACUS (it may have been Umbreon?), but I've always just done regular usmashes instead of bothering with DACUS. It works out pretty fine; land it more than half the time. At least, I did until he started DIing for it, so I have to mix it up (maybe this is where the DACUS would help). I agree that the zoning Sheik does is a lot more conservative against MK, at least in my experience, although he might be giving me too much respect, IDK.

I noticed some of the same things in his set against Flipp (the edge guards being depressingly bad for a player of his level), although I'm pretty sure that in their Winners Finals set Jaden pretty much used transform to get rid of the C4 every time, so I'm not sure what was going on there.

Sometimes I go for unsafe needle grab setups Unfortunately there aren't too many flat stages, at least in Melee there's just the two. Never played Yoshi in PM, I think I mentioned this but the MU is largely the same except for shield pressure. I've been told by our local Yoshi player that Yoshi likes Sheik being above him. My set against him a couple weeks ago got him to practice some new tools to deal with needles and then he bopped me the next weekly

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Double post but it's been a month so it hardly counts.

How do you guys think the Peach MU has changed in the transition to PM?

Personally I think it's effectively a slight losing match up in practice, but in theory it is still even/win. The reason I say this is because the MU is somewhat a battle of attrition where it comes down to one character forcing the other to run into their defensive options by crowding them out. On a purely theoretical level, Sheik wins this scenario (for a variety of complex interactions that admittedly I don't even come close to fully understanding), and is then able to convert into a short punish (assuming good DI).

However, in PM Sheik lost this guaranteed conversion she had in Melee in a lot of MUs - down throw doesn't guarantee things like ftilt or fair/uair (at least, I assume it doesn't; someone help me out here). Back throw/down throw "mix-up" in my experience lost Sheik a lot of guaranteed conversions in general. Is this still the case?

If so, I think that is the reason Sheik loses, because the punish game would be wildly stacked in Peach's favour.

As a corollary, what would be the optimal pairing of characters to cover this MU and all of her other losing MUs?
I think Roy, if he is even/positive on Peach, would be optimal since he beats Squirtle, is evenish against the spacies (moreso than Sheik is) and beats/goes even with MK (which cannot be said for Marth).

 

[DiZZ]

I played jfyst over the weekend I usually play dk in the mu versus sonic and this week I tried out my sheik (I main her in melee) and I have to say it worked, I feel like sheik with her superior tilt crouch cancel and needles just beats out most of sonics shenanigans, its all about camping needle imo

 

[Deleted member]

atm i think sheik loses to mk fox rob gaw with absolute certainty. i think she also has the potential to lose to wolf zss and diddy but those characters are so volatile that you can randomly just kill them anyway so the jury is out. the problem with those MUs is that those are also basically just a lot of the best characters in the game and will be problematic anyway so youre better off just trying to learn the MU rather than have a cover character.

 

[DiZZ]

atm i think sheik loses to mk fox rob gaw with absolute certainty. i think she also has the potential to lose to wolf zss and diddy but those characters are so volatile that you can randomly just kill them anyway so the jury is out. the problem with those MUs is that those are also basically just a lot of the best characters in the game and will be problematic anyway so youre better off just trying to learn the MU rather than have a cover character.

I agree with all of those characters besides zss dont see how zss really beats us when needles shut her down pretty well

 

[Deleted member]

as a rule good players dont lose to needles and characters faster than sheik dont lose to needles

 

[DiZZ]

as a rule good players dont lose to needles and characters faster than sheik dont lose to needles

I mean the needle part is entirely untrue in pm sonic 100% gets stuffed by good needle placement and then aerials/ tilts to cover his aerial options , in melee its true for most characters other than floaties

 

[4tlas]

as a rule good players dont lose to needles and characters faster than sheik dont lose to needles

I don't find this true, but you have to be very clever with the needles. Mindgame with them. Don't throw them. Camp with them just to make them approach. And you can still edgeguard gloriously with them.

 

[Deleted member]

pretty much no to both of those, sheiks neutral is okay and certainly better than some but needles are supplementary to it at best. good players dont just fold to needles and sonic doesnt either. theyre pretty good but not that hilariously busted in neutral.

 

[Tarul]

Double post but it's been a month so it hardly counts.

How do you guys think the Peach MU has changed in the transition to PM?

Personally I think it's effectively a slight losing match up in practice, but in theory it is still even/win. The reason I say this is because the MU is somewhat a battle of attrition where it comes down to one character forcing the other to run into their defensive options by crowding them out. On a purely theoretical level, Sheik wins this scenario (for a variety of complex interactions that admittedly I don't even come close to fully understanding), and is then able to convert into a short punish (assuming good DI).
.

Yeah, I think this might be a slightly losing matchup. The loss of d-throw really hurts Sheik, because it's hard to get kills against Peach on bad DI from the throw mixup (it's hard to get upair/upsmash - usually you get fair/bair/nair). I'm not sure if the larger stages help or hurt Sheik. On one hand, they help her avoid being boxed in. On the other, it allows Peach to live a longer.

AGT is a mixed bag. Peach can shark us in the air with AGT up ->aerial, but AGT also allows Sheik to counter Peach's approaches/camping attempts with turnips while Sheik is grounded/not above Peach.

RAR should help in the microspacing (Peach has to think if Sheik is in f-tilt range, fair, and now RAR bair), so neutral is a little better for us in this game. Overall, I don't think this matchup is worth switching because it's close enough to even.

As for covering her bad matchups...Marth is probably the closest thing. I personally find Samus - Peach to not be that bad.

pretty much no to both of those, sheiks neutral is okay and certainly better than some but needles are supplementary to it at best. good players dont just fold to needles and sonic doesnt either. theyre pretty good but not that hilariously busted in neutral.

I've found that Ness doesn't have any real options against needle camping. You're fast enough to run away-> needle camp, and then you can run up->shield when you sniff a bad approach (since shielding beats the majority of Ness' options)

Needles aren't the entire neutral, but they are helpful for forcing matchup dynamics: e.g. by throwing needles every now and then, you remind dash dancers that they can't just dash dance camp you, and have to actually approach. It's also some pretty nice chip damage on slow/campy characters, like G&W. Needle damage isn't negligible either, so it's worth counting as a "real neutral option."

Are they going to fold entirely due to needles? Nah. But most characters shouldn't fold to a singular neutral option of Sheik. Sheik's neutral is versatile, but you can't just fair spam your way to victory. Everything needs to be mixed up.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Ness is kind of a special case where our defensive wall, and good shield + good shield options really shut him down. Needles are always going to be good, and especially important against characters like Ness and Ganon who can't approach well (but are also therefore forced to approach under the threat of needles, which they can't effectively deal with). I think Umbreon's on the same page as you Tarul. I like your points about neutral; I hadn't really gave much thought to AGT shenanigans actually worsening her camping ability overall.

 

[Mechaglacier]

How does the sheik-mew2 mu go down? I don't wanna lose to sosa's sheik again