***Sheik is 25th in the new tier list***

[Voyeur]

u guys should move to socal haha. People here thinks sheik fox & falcon r high tier because of me. Welcome to the good life.

ha, that's awesome. California usually always spawns the good players.
What city are you in down in SOCAL?
Because I really need some one to show me in person how to do some of the technical fundamentals for me to grasp it. I can only get so much from reading and videos.

 

[Flamingo]

isnt perfect score 15?

I thought so...

 

[Voyeur]

isnt perfect score 15?

I thought so...

it shows it out of 16 on the graph
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list
So perhaps they decided to base it off a total of 15 because that is what MetaKnight tops off at?

 

[Flamingo]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214428

15, the 16 is probably for scaling purposes.

 

[Voyeur]

ahh. Cool then.
Back to Sheik, more people just need to start using her widely and winning in tournaments it seems because she really is superior then some of the other above ranked tier characters I think.

Or like past posts suggested is if Zelda and Sheik were together their ranking would be considerably higher in the tier list and I think it goes with out saying that there should be that option shown because not everyone is solely going to use one or the other.

 

[Charoo]

ha, that's awesome. California usually always spawns the good players.
What city are you in down in SOCAL?
Because I really need some one to show me in person how to do some of the technical fundamentals for me to grasp it. I can only get so much from reading and videos.

bellflower. Near Cerritos.

Sheik and Fox are at the right place. Maybe a spot or two lower but that's it. Yes they are low but when you compare to the chars. above them. They r better that Sheik. Not by much but they still are.

fun fact: toon link is very fun to fight. They get mad when u gimp them for some reason.

 

[Voyeur]

I'm up in Anaheim, Orange County. ...Bellflower is some where in LA right? that's pretty far for my car.

 

[Flamingo]

ahh. Cool then.
Back to Sheik, more people just need to start using her widely and winning in tournaments it seems because she really is superior then some of the other above ranked tier characters I think.

Or like past posts suggested is if Zelda and Sheik were together their ranking would be considerably higher in the tier list and I think it goes with out saying that there should be that option shown because not everyone is solely going to use one or the other.

Agreed. I was for a separate Zeik thread in the character discussion. Although not a tier list, Ankoku's character ranking list... http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954 shows Zelda and Sheik as one being. I like seeing the Zelda/Sheik combination doing well comparatively to her tier placement... although the two can't be compared all that well because of uneven character usage, etc..

 

[superglucose]

But lets say the tier list got shortened to S, A, C, F (Uber, over used, Border Line, Under used-yes PKMN)
I think Sheik would most definitely be a BL/C because of an amazing tech arsenal & combo output

The OU, BL, and UU (and for gen 3, NU) aren't refering to their power levels, they refer specifically to how many people use them. The difference between BL and OU is how many people use them, not how powerful they are.

 

[Vorguen]

Zelda/Sheik should get their own spot in the tier list. Someone said just average out their tier spots and that's where they fall, but that makes no sense. As Zelda/Sheik you can play the characters Sheik counters as Sheik and vice versa, and the characters that the combination of Zelda/Sheik together go best at too. This together would really give Zelda/Sheik a better spot on the list.

Then again the list doesn't matter. Go out there and prove Zelda/Sheik is better than people think!

I miss maining Sheik from Melee..... :'(

 

[Voyeur]

The OU, BL, and UU (and for gen 3, NU) aren't refering to their power levels, they refer specifically to how many people use them. The difference between BL and OU is how many people use them, not how powerful they are.

well I do play pokemon competitively and have since Gold/Silver/Crystal and as much as people would like to say for a lack there of that it's all based on usage and popularity, those reasons for for the fact certain pokemon have stronger base stats. So, yes it is based of power of where they are placed, only BL pertains as ones that are strong enough for OU but just are popular in it and that are basically a ban list for UU.
I personally use BL/UU teams, even in the OU environment.

relating back to brawl you can say Metaknight is the Uber tier, Snake; A-B are OU, C-E is BL and F-G being the UU. (relating the most current SSBB tier list to it)

Just to at least shorten up some of the ends and not make it seem so chopped. But yeah; I'll use Sheik and Zelda regardless of ranking just because I like the character.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

The tiers list only really is what you make of it. Like a catch-22, I've seen it too many times where people quit playing a character just because they are low tier, and go to a high tier just so they could win, and thus, only buffering the idea that the character is low tier.

I believe that the skill of the player really shines through most of all. Heck, I'll be happy enough if I can make a player that uses a high tier character, and even put up a good fight with him. It's okay not to win, as long as you learn from it, and you prove that you have what it takes to become better.

 

[Rawr_]

The tiers list only really is what you make of it. Like a catch-22, I've seen it too many times where people quit playing a character just because they are low tier, and go to a high tier just so they could win, and thus, only buffering the idea that the character is low tier.

I believe that the skill of the player really shines through most of all. Heck, I'll be happy enough if I can make a player that uses a high tier character, and even put up a good fight with him. It's okay not to win, as long as you learn from it, and you prove that you have what it takes to become better.

case in point: Taj in melee, mewtwo kicks *** lol screw the list i can blow up spacies out of their recovery

 

[Vorguen]

Tier lists don't in logical sense affect a character since they don't change anything about him, it's just an overall perspective on characters placements amongst the rest that one can agree or disagree with.

Case in point I felt Zelda/Sheik should have a joint spot, whether or not a tier list is life-changing for me or not was irrelevant. lol

 

[NJzFinest]

case in point: Taj in melee, mewtwo kicks *** lol screw the list

^_^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaC2PWfZJEg

 

[Blistering Speed]

^_^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaC2PWfZJEg

That's a terrible example NJ, did you not realise Taj GAOT ONE@!?!11

 

[Error!!!]

I feel the same way because just because ike is last and MK is first, dosnt meen that some one cant 3 stock a MK player

_____________________________________________________________________________________

 

[DarkThundah]

That's a terrible example NJ, did you not realise Taj GAOT ONE@!?!11

Yeah, that was brutal. Well it is m2k, I mean how do you expect m2k to loose to a Mewtwo.

 

[MarthFanatique]

IMO, and this is just IMO, so just hear me out. I don't prefer wave-dashing. I play to win, and I'm good, don't get me wrong, I am no noob at smash, but I just think it's...*thinks of the word* not cheap, but taking advantage of the game, I guess. This "glitch" or w/e you want to call it (its nomenclature is not the point) extremely benefitted some characters while it didn't really benefit others. Shiek was one that benefitted a LOT. She also was naturally buffed compared to others (sorry Mewtwo!). Anyway, extremely competetive players depended on using wave-dashing. Now that we have Brawl, she got nerfed a bit. In addition, as all of us know, wave-dashing was given the boot. Now, the competitive characters that used her solely because of high tier listing, being very powerful, and wave-dashing advantage, have deserted her for others *coughMetaknightcough*. Wave-dashing has spoiled them. They didn't play the REAL Shiek. Since I didn't play extreme wave-dash frensy (though I can wave-dash), I never went through the withdraw. It took me a while to getting around to liking her again, but she still is good.

My point? I think that the real problem is that the old Shiek mainers (who wave-dashed) don't use her anymore because she might be a little nerfed. Thus they're are lesser people playing her, becoming better with her. This leads to inexperienced players not doing extremely well. I like her tier placement. She's not in a bad spot, but not in a good spot, as well. Think about it: do you want to main a character that's in the bottom tier so that's it's very very difficult to win? Probably not! However, do you want to play a character that's in the very very top tier so that people hate you for playing that character? Probably not! It's awesome when you face an opponent and they get cocky and confident that they're going to win because they have a higher tier-placed character and you end up kicking their ***. It's an awesome feeling, let me tell you.

That's my speal.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Yeah, that was brutal. Well it is m2k, I mean how do you expect m2k to loose to a Mewtwo.

M2k's self proclaimed Melee peak was also at FC: Diamond.

IMO, and this is just IMO, so just hear me out. I don't prefer wave-dashing. I play to win, and I'm good, don't get me wrong, I am no noob at smash, but I just think it's...*thinks of the word* not cheap, but taking advantage of the game, I guess.

What's wrong with taking advantage of the game if it improves it?

This "glitch" or w/e you want to call it (its nomenclature is not the point) extremely benefitted some characters while it didn't really benefit others. Shiek was one that
benefitted a LOT. She also was naturally buffed compared to others (sorry Mewtwo!).

Wavedashing benefited everyone, not equally but it never widened the gap, it just gave everyone more options. Besides, Sheik's wavedash was fairly mediocre in distance, I don't know why you see it as so amazing in comparison.

Anyway, extremely competetive players depended on using wave-dashing.

Lol no.

Now that we have Brawl, she got nerfed a bit. In addition, as all of us know, wave-dashing was given the boot. Now, the competitive characters that used her solely because of high tier listing, being very powerful, and wave-dashing advantage, have deserted her for others *coughMetaknightcough*.

None of the good Melee Sheik's play Brawl (KDJ, Drephen, the european Sheiks) but yes, it's true that competitive players will always gravitate to the higher tier characters.

Wave-dashing has spoiled them. They didn't play the REAL Shiek. Since I didn't play extreme wave-dash frensy (though I can wave-dash), I never went through the withdraw. It took me a while to getting around to liking her again, but she still is good.

This is really stupid. Really really stupid. They played the REAL Sheik (whatever that is), just better then you because they took advantage of an essential spacing component.

My point? I think that the real problem is that the old Shiek mainers (who wave-dashed) don't use her anymore because she might be a little nerfed. Thus they're are lesser people playing her, becoming better with her. This leads to inexperienced players not doing extremely well.

They're lesser people?! What are you, the master race smasher who didn't use wavedashing?

I like her tier placement. She's not in a bad spot, but not in a good spot, as well. Think about it: do you want to main a character that's in the bottom tier so that's it's very very difficult to win? Probably not! However, do you want to play a character that's in the very very top tier so that people hate you for playing that character?

Good players don't care about scrubby comments of 'tier *****'.

Probably not! It's awesome when you face an opponent and they get cocky and confident that they're going to win because they have a higher tier-placed character and you end up kicking their ***. It's an awesome feeling, let me tell you.

Good players don't get cocky because of a higher tier character. I wish I could one day partake in this awesome feeling.

Basically, this post summarises as 'I'm special and better then people who used to wavedash'. I dislike you after one post.

 

[Voyeur]

That's my speal.

I was on both sides of the spectrum when it came to Sheik, not knowing about wavedashing and then entering more tournaments and upgrading to using it. So according to you I did use the "real" Sheik, and when some part of a game is there for the offer and you don't use that to your advantage, it doesn't mean you're an anti-cheap player. No...it just means you're not up to par on learning how to play a game that offers all its Ins & Outs.
If you had the chance to take a car or walk to a 20 mile destination, which would it be? .....exactly
Also by your standards you shouldn't be using F-tilt Lock, because it is cheap.

I was a Melee player who mained Sheik, who used wave dash and I feel Sheik was only nerfed In one area; Fair. They really made her other components shine; a better suited Ftilt for new engine, an awesome tether recovery, Vanish's KO properties, some of the best projectiles in the game and she has some of the most real combos in Brawl. Bair has better spacing abilities and almost the same knock back as her original Fair, Dsmash is just as good...I mean....Fair nerfed / everything else Buffed IMO.
So you should think, were people upset and spoiled by the change of no wave dashing for Sheik....or more or less her ability to get some great set up KOs around 80-130 for an Fair that had semi-spike capabilities or a down-thrown chain grab.

Sheik players like playing Sheik but now in Brawl to little or no less convenience, we're forced to learn a little Zelda. Minor in set back I think but, it was more enjoyable to just see Sheik get the KO. Which she still can by all means.

Melee and Brawl are two different games in which you can't compare past characters to their previous selfs'. If you really felt special about using Sheik's placement tier wise you'd know you shouldn't make a statement to care about it or what others think and DGAF, using who you want because you want to and not making any spectacle about it. Skill > Skill, let your rankings and wins do the talking and not chalk it up tiers in the first place.

it's true that competitive players will always gravitate to the higher tier characters.

not all of them =D

 

[Zankoku]

You're wrong about the nerfing thing, Voyeur. While fair's difference is easiest to see, the most painful loss is definitely the addition of 30 frames of landing lag to aerial needles.

I suppose the loss of Vanish's ability to grab ledges is made up for with a tether recovery and more power in the explosion.

 

[Voyeur]

oh yes, the basics of L-cancel and needle cancel, forgot.

what do you mean it's loss of grabbing ledges btw? You lost me on that

you mean to combine the vanish with Needles as an effective tool to ledge stall?

 

[Zankoku]

In Melee as long as Vanish had a downward angle you could interrupt its path by grabbing the ledge, effectively "sweetspotting" ledges straight out of Vanish. In Brawl you're always forced to reappear before grabbing a ledge, and you're vulnerable during that time. In addition, you cannot end it early by grabbing a ledge, so attempting to with a downward angle will just overshoot the ledge and kill you.

L-Cancel didn't have a huge bearing on Sheik's game, since most of her aerials ended before she would land on the ground again.

Wavedashing only served to make up for Sheik's relatively poor dashdance distance.

 

[Rawr_]

melee sheik has weird physics

 

[Voyeur]

ahh ok I got you now, we have to complete the animation. Where as before you could do more effective edge stalling with Vanish back in melee.
I still need to some how capture a video of me doing that one thing, whether it is big or small it is something that hasn't been shown to the Sheik SSBB meta game.

 

[demodemo]

lol at marthfanatique thinking wavedashing made sheik good hahahahahaha

what made sheik good broken was needle cancelling, gay slap, chaingrabs, and hitstun

all of which were removed or fixed in brawl.

 

[NJzFinest]

It's not that funny actually. Sheik's wavedash back was pretty amazing; she could do way more out of it then most of the cast.

Ex. Samus's broken wavedash back = one of the reasons why she's even considered a decent character.

Also, there's the simple fact Sheik was lacking in a solid dash dance game, making wavedashing even more important for her.

I'm also surpised how no one brought up CCing CC grab and CC dsmash (including simply running and canceling the dash into a dsmash) is sexy.

 

[Arigon]

I think it's partly because of the lack of playing time she gets. I don't see her much in tournys.

 

[MarthFanatique]

My apologies; it was not my intent to put non-wave-dashing characters ahead of wave-dashing characters. Absolutely not. Though I honestly say that now, I admit my previous post sounds biased. It was not meant to sound that way. BTW, what I meant by the Shiek benefitted A LOT comment was badly worded. I meant that the possibilities of Shiek in terms of comboing and mind games (if you believe in it) was enhanced more than some others. And yes, I realize that the hardcore awesome, Godly Shiek characters of Melee have stayed, it's just the higher tier magnet that attracts people (not the tier itself, but you play a character and they're good, you know it. Come on, you play DDD for a day and you know he's awesome).

I was on both sides of the spectrum when it came to Sheik, not knowing about wavedashing and then entering more tournaments and upgrading to using it. So according to you I did use the "real" Sheik, and when some part of a game is there for the offer and you don't use that to your advantage, it doesn't mean you're an anti-cheap player. No...it just means you're not up to par on learning how to play a game that offers all its Ins & Outs.
If you had the chance to take a car or walk to a 20 mile destination, which would it be? .....exactly

This is a good point. I see what you mean.

Also by your standards you shouldn't be using F-tilt Lock, because it is cheap.

Hah!...another good point...yeah, you hit the nail on the head there. Touché!

Again, my apologies for getting off on the wrong foot.:embarrass

 

[Voyeur]

I think we should all go visit Japan tourneys since Sheik is 13-14th on their Tier list....they must have some sick offensive and aggressive gameplay to make her shine and I thrive in that sort of dgaf environment.

Or perhaps with more time in the general evolution of brawl Sheik will reach that position if we all work together to progress that game and kick some ***.

 

[Blistering Speed]

You shouldn't stereotype a whole nation to a 7 month old video of a Fox and a Falco who didn't shield or camp. Individuals don't play according to their nationality, they have the same varying playstyles we do.

 

[Voyeur]

You shouldn't stereotype a whole nation to a 7 month old video of a Fox and a Falco who didn't shield or camp. Individuals don't play according to their nationality, they have the same varying playstyles we do.

umm...where did I stereotype them in anything I said? And I've never seen any 7 month old video of a fox or falco...I actually have zero clue to what you're even talking about.

I'm commenting on what I've seen as their Tier list and that they must have offensive play styles, hence that would relate to you saying in that apparent video there was no camping or shielding, since that is defensive.

if I'm stereotyping anything it's the Tier list set up. It could be any nation, regardless, obvious statement of how everyone fights in variety is obvious.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Apologies, I forget you weren't around then. A Japanese video of a Fox and Falco was posted in tactical discussion of two players who played huge mega freaking bezerker offensive and ever since then, whenever in regards to Japanese Smash, someone mentions their offensive playstyle purely because it's the misgiven consensus. If you're basing it off of common traits in a tier list, then that's logical and understandable. Again, I'm sorry, assumptions fail.

 

[Voyeur]

Apologies, I forget you weren't around then. A Japanese video of a Fox and Falco was posted in tactical discussion of two players who played huge played mega freaking bezerker offensive and ever since then, whenever in regards to Japanese Smash, someone mentions their offensive playstyle purely because it's the misgiven consensus. If you're basing it off of common traits in a tier list, then that's logical and understandable. Again, I'm sorry, assumptions fail.

it's fine, never any hard feelings here. But yea, didn't know that about the video thing it was about the tier list purely.
:]

 

[jalued]

Sheiks a better character than Zelda.........this is clear to anyone who plays them both at an equal skill level. You can also argue that Sheik is better than Fox due to her having far better matchups and not really any **** matchups.

I can see Bowser above her even though I don't agree with it and she's definitely not better than Luigi.

omg, wtf u talking about? sheik is in no way better than fox. sure fox has some really bad matchups, but sheik has worse. IC own her, TL owns her, MK owns her, marth owns her, wario does pretty good, olimar owns her, rob owns her, basically all top tiers own her. she cant kill at all, fox can just get a lucky upsmash in at 100% and everyone dies

 

[Blistering Speed]

omg, wtf u talking about? sheik is in no way better than fox. sure fox has some really bad matchups, but sheik has worse. IC own her, TL owns her, MK owns her, marth owns her, wario does pretty good, olimar owns her, rob owns her, basically all top tiers own her. she cant kill at all, fox can just get a lucky upsmash in at 100% and everyone dies

You're wrong in virtually every concievable way.

 

[Tristan_win]

Jalued if you really think that way about Sheik then please stop using her.

Your doing more harm then good. Go use someone better then sheik like fox

 

[Lore]

Actually, what we really need is more Sheik mains going to tournaments. This is somehwat based on tournament results, and without more sheiks in tourneys, we won't move up.

Just bringing this back up...

Also, for clarification, the matchup for fox v sheik is...

lol.

 

[Zankoku]

omg, wtf u talking about? sheik is in no way better than fox. sure fox has some really bad matchups, but sheik has worse. IC own her, TL owns her, MK owns her, marth owns her, wario does pretty good, olimar owns her, rob owns her, basically all top tiers own her. she cant kill at all, fox can just get a lucky upsmash in at 100% and everyone dies

Why the hell are you using a character you can't ever see yourself winning with except in matches that don't matter?