Sheik, FTW?

[NeighborhoodP]

Marth and Sheik are even with Fox and Falco.

Anyone who thinks differnt mains Shiek.

This man is the master of the cogent argument.

 

[Mcscruff]

he does have a point that matchups are not bad at all...

 

[NeighborhoodP]

he does have a point that matchups are not bad at all...

Yeah, just because he says so. He explains his beliefs quite convincingly.

"Anyone who thinks differnt mains Shiek."

Ladies and gentleman, StripesOrBars. How can you argue with that?

 

[NJzFinest]

Well, it's not because "he says so". There are other people who are say that Fox and Falco are even with Marth and Sheik, it's not just DooDah (Stripes). Example: the quote in first post in this thread You can related this to someone saying "Fox is better than Pichu" and having some other person complaining that he/she who said that didn't elaborate on Fox vs Pichu

Then again, it's not like you support your arguments:

1. Sheik doesn't **** a good Marth
2. Space animals **** Sheik

kk

lol @ Sheik ****** Peach

I like how you took the time to elaborate on each claim. It's also the only post you made in this thread where you actually contributed your thoughts on Sheik >.>

When he says "anyone who thinks differnt mains Shiek", he basically mains that almost all Shiek players think that Fox and Falco >>> Shiek and complain about them. There have been alot of threads in the Sheik forums about help with space animals

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Well, it's not because "he says so". There are other people who are say that Fox and Falco are even with Marth and Sheik, it's not just DooDah (Stripes). Example: the quote in first post in this thread You can related this to someone saying "Fox is better than Pichu" and having some other person complaining that he/she who said that didn't elaborate on Fox vs Pichu

Then again, it's not like you support your arguments:

I like how you took the time to elaborate on each claim. It's also the only post you made in this thread where you actually contributed your thoughts on Sheik >.>

When he says "anyone who thinks differnt mains Shiek", he basically mains that almost all Shiek players think that Fox and Falco >>> Shiek and complain about them. There have been alot of threads in the Sheik forums about help with space animals

I usually say a basic claim like that and wait for the other person to elaborate on their own claim, so there are actually points in their argument to pick apart.

Of course, guy over there never actually made an actual argument, so once I realized guy was your normal troll, the point was to start poking fun at his trolltastic actions.

I believe I succeeded.

 

[Ares726]

DooDah really knows his stuff. You just have to dig through sarcasm, hyperbole, flames, and other chat obstacles to find his pearls of wisdom. Most of his posts contain accurate information, it's all just in his way of talking.

 

[GoldenGlove]

I usually say a basic claim like that and wait for the other person to elaborate on their own claim, so there are actually points in their argument to pick apart.

Of course, guy over there never actually made an actual argument, so once I realized guy was your normal troll, the point was to start poking fun at his trolltastic actions.

I believe I succeeded.

Ah, but what if HE was waiting for YOU to elaborate on YOUR claim so as to pick YOUR argument apart O_o. A tad hypocritic on your part to justify your lack of an argument with "I was waiting for him to make his argument first!" Also, Ares speaks the truth.

 

[NJzFinest]

Of course, guy over there never actually made an actual argument, so once I realized guy was your normal troll, the point was to start poking fun at his trolltastic actions.

Lol, DooDah doesn't troll. He agrees that Sheik is the best character in the game and actually has a pretty long history of posting about how good Sheik is. Since this thread is about Sheik being the best, one shouldn't be surprised that he would come here and "strongly express" his opinions.
Again, I don't think you should be the one talking >_>

lmao good point

LMAO this post is the funniest post all year. Your stupidity knows no bounds.

Yeah my Sheik is rly bad

lmao you and your ad hominem arguments, you don't even bring up any valid points.

This man is the master of the cogent argument.

Try harder to contribute something worth reading to my thread

Anyways, as Ares726 said, he simply as a different way of talking...then again, he only flames inexperienced players or people who make ******** posts.

I believe I succeeded.

I believe you are the only one who thinks that I don't even see what was there to succeed in

 

[ZoSo]

pc doesnt main fox lol

His Fox is just as good as his Falco.

He used either Fox or Marth for the majority of his matches on Saturday. That includes his matches against KoreanDJ.

Hell, he used Sheik as much as he used Falco.

He has told me personally that he has been using Fox more than Falco these days.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

DooDah really knows his stuff. You just have to dig through sarcasm, hyperbole, flames, and other chat obstacles to find his pearls of wisdom. Most of his posts contain accurate information, it's all just in his way of talking.

It's much more fun to poke fun at him. There is no such thing as a real debate with people whose idea of debating is belittling the opposition with illogical claims.

 

[Aesir]

so his way of talking is to act immature and belittle everyone?

Yeah I'm sure Hitlers jew camps were his way of showing his love to the jewish community.

 

[ZoSo]

It's just the Internet.

I'm sure DooDah is an all right guy.

even tho he sux @ smash

 

[Pikaville]

I don't mind the spacies but then again iv'e never played a really good one.(well maybe Fox)

 

[Banksya]

lol this thread is ********, if people can't beat other characters with sheik they suck and should play as fox and lose with him instead, rather than arguing that sheik isn't the best. then you can be just like everybody else lmao

 

[Pikaville]

lol this thread is ********, if people can't beat other characters with sheik they suck and should play as fox and lose with him instead, rather than arguing that sheik isn't the best. then you can be just like everybody else lmao

As ******** as this thread may or may not be,that post was worse.

 

[Ares726]

I think that Sheik is the best character in the game without advanced techniques. I think Marth is the second best character in the game without advanced techniques. I also think that Sheik benefits the least from advanced techs out of every character in the game. If not the least then pretty close to it. I think Marth also benefits slightly from advanced techs, but not nearly as much as other characters.

Fox and Falco are only as good as they are because of advanced techs. The same can be said for Peach, CF, IC, Bowser, Link, Ness, Ganon, etc.

Therefore, I think that Fox and Falco ranking above Sheik and Marth in the tier list is quite accurate. Think of it this way, Sheik is an 8 without adv. techs, Marth is an 7.5, Fox is a 6, and Falco is a 6. When adv. techs are implemented into gameplay Fox becomes a 9.5, Falco becomes a 9.5, Sheik becomes a 9, and Marth becomes a 9.

Sheik is the best character without adv. techs. (period) With adv. techs, she is not, Fox and Falco are better (overall). However, I think that Fox vs. Sheik and Falco vs. Sheik are pretty much 50/50 matches. Without adv. techs Sheik murders them, but with adv. techs it's an even match.

Discuss.

 

[AS Money]

so his way of talking is to act immature and belittle everyone?

Yeah I'm sure Hitlers jew camps were his way of showing his love to the jewish community.

he loved cooking with ovens too(i'm going to hell)

 

[Hank McCoy]

Marth and Sheik are even with Fox and Falco.

Anyone who thinks differnt mains Shiek.

and thats why dope says "if you play falco and lose to a shiek you suck"

or thats why all my fox buddies, for example cunning kitsune, know that fox ***** shiek.

just because you dont know how to get around her fair doesnt make her godly

 

[AS Money]

cunning also ***** marth/anyone who dosn't fall down when shined

 

[sheepyman]

No, it's true. Fox goes even with Sheik.

The reason a lot of Fox players (even great ones) think Fox ***** Sheik is because they haven't played a Sheik of equal caliber.

Flashback to OC2. CJ isn't just trading, but actually beating some of the best Fox players in the country, like M2K, Ken, and KDJ.

A lot of things that Fox thinks he can do to Sheik (like u-throw u-air) don't work when Sheik DIs properly (smash DI albeit but DI nonetheless). No character really beats Sheik, not even ICs. ICs have an incredibly hard time grabbing Sheik when Sheik does backward fairs and spaces well. Another thing she has on the space animals is range. The SA are really weak in that regard, especially Fox. Marth has great range, but he's easy to take advantage of, because of his fallspeed. Sheik on the other hand, has no such weakness.

This isn't to say that Sheik is the best character in the game. This is to say Sheik/Fox/Falco/Marth are the best characters in the game, and trying to order them is splitting hairs. Personally, I think Marth is just a tad bit weaker than the other three, and the only reason people like Azen/Ken use them is because when you have mindgames like they do, his brute power is incredibly difficult to stop, and your weaknessess are lessened. However, that's pure opinion. If I were making a tier list, I'd just write "Falco/Fox/Marth/Sheik" all in the 1st position on the list.

 

[tarheeljks]

I say Fox/Falco>Sheik>Marth with the the Fox/Falco advantage over Sheik being very small, but noteable none the less.

 

[NJzFinest]

and thats why dope says "if you play falco and lose to a shiek you suck"

I don't think were talking about the matchup of Falco vs Sheik, but rather Falco vs Sheik as characters overall compared to everyone else.

or thats why all my fox buddies, for example cunning kitsune, know that fox ***** shiek.

M2K>Cunning

 

[Plairnkk]

If sheik is so amazing, pick her up and try to win tournies.

 

[tarheeljks]

No, it's true. Fox and Falco go even with Sheik.

The reason a lot of Fox/Falco players (even great ones) think they **** Sheik is because they haven't played a Sheik of equal caliber.

Flashback to OC2. CJ isn't just trading, but actually beating some of the best Fox players in the country, like M2K, Ken, and KDJ.

A lot of things that Fox thinks he can do to Sheik (like u-throw u-air) don't work when Sheik DIs properly (smash DI albeit but DI nonetheless). No character really beats Sheik, not even ICs. ICs have an incredibly hard time grabbing Sheik when Sheik does backward fairs and spaces well. Another thing she has on the space animals is range. The SA are really weak in that regard, especially Fox. Marth has great range, but he's easy to take advantage of, because of his fallspeed. Sheik on the other hand, has no such weakness.

This isn't to say that Sheik is the best character in the game. This is to say Sheik/Fox/Falco/Marth are the best characters in the game, and trying to order them is splitting hairs. Personally, I think Marth is just a tad bit weaker than the other three, and the only reason people like Azen/Ken use them is because when you have mindgames like they do, his brute power is incredibly difficult to stop, and your weaknessess are lessened. However, that's pure opinion. If I were making a tier list, I'd just write "Falco/Fox/Marth/Sheik" all in the 1st position on the list.

if you think he is weaker, why would you rank him w/the other three?

 

[Mcscruff]

It's much more fun to poke fun at him. There is no such thing as a real debate with people whose idea of debating is belittling the opposition with illogical claims.

thats exactly what you do...

 

[Hank McCoy]

I don't think were talking about the matchup of Falco vs Sheik, but rather Falco vs Sheik as characters overall compared to everyone else.

yes we are. you are saying that shiek goes even with space animals that is false.

M2K>Cunning

so m2k thinks that shiek goes even? ive yet to see a shiek beat the top foxes besides cj who is just a better player

No, it's true. Fox and Falco go even with Sheik.

The reason a lot of Fox/Falco players (even great ones) think they **** Sheik is because they haven't played a Sheik of equal caliber.

drephens a pretty **** good shiek i'd say

A lot of things that Fox thinks he can do to Sheik (like u-throw u-air) don't work when Sheik DIs properly (smash DI albeit but DI nonetheless).

waveshine usmash

No character really beats Sheik, not even ICs. ICs have an incredibly hard time grabbing Sheik when Sheik does backward fairs and spaces well.

its still acounter. its not a super hardcore counter. but its still a counter

Another thing she has on the space animals is range. The SA are really weak in that regard, especially Fox.

no they aren't. i guarantee you a fox could run up and do an usmash and AT LEAST exchange blows with a shiek. falco doesnt need range he has lasers. he keeps pressure up the whole time. and even then, he does have decent range.

Marth has great range, but he's easy to take advantage of, because of his fallspeed.

a marth that is putting out double fairs like there is no tomorrow is nothing "easy to take advantage of"

This isn't to say that Sheik is the best character in the game. This is to say Sheik/Fox/Falco/Marth are the best characters in the game, and trying to order them is splitting hairs. Personally, I think Marth is just a tad bit weaker than the other three, and the only reason people like Azen/Ken use them is because when you have mindgames like they do, his brute power is incredibly difficult to stop, and your weaknessess are lessened. However, that's pure opinion. If I were making a tier list, I'd just write "Falco/Fox/Marth/Sheik" all in the 1st position on the list.

i completely agree with this, our differences aside

but i would say that marth and shiek are closer to each other than they are to the space animals

 

[sheepyman]

I'm not saying Sheik is advantaged vs. Foxes, I'm saying she's even, which you may or may not disagree with.

She's got a better sheild, has tons of ways to gimp off the edge, but this begs the question "but you don't see sheiks ******, do you?"

true, but look at people like Azen, CJ, and recently KDJ. KDJ beat the best player in the nation's Fox with Sheik, on Fox stages no less. I already talked about CJ, and Azen 3-0'd ChuDat's ICs, a feat which simply shows the matchup isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be, as long as the player knows it well.

Even if Fox did have the advantage in the matchup, overall he does a teeny bit worse as you go down the list of characters. Falco is probably the best in the top tier, but move on down and he does a lot worse against the lower tiers when compared to his top tier brethren.

 

[Hank McCoy]

She's got a better sheild,

lol, thats all i have to say

has tons of ways to gimp off the edge,

everyone can gimp space animals off the edge. thats like saying dk goes even with fox because he has some combos on him and can edgeguard him. thats like saying roy goes even with fox. shiek does gimp it better than others, but that doesnt make it even

and you have to get them OFF the edge in order to gimp, which is very very hard with space animals, who barrage you constantly with moves that, if done properly, you cant get out of.

true, but look at people like Azen, CJ, and recently KDJ. KDJ beat the best player in the nation's Fox with Sheik, on Fox stages no less. I already talked about CJ, and Azen 3-0'd ChuDat's ICs, a feat which simply shows the matchup isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be, as long as the player knows it well.

thats because azen and cj are better players. and kdj won because he beat m2k with mindgames, not character strengths.

Even if Fox did have the advantage in the matchup, overall he does a teeny bit worse as you go down the list of characters. Falco is probably the best in the top tier, but move on down and he does a lot worse against the lower tiers when compared to his top tier brethren.

if you are suggesting fox has trouble with any low, mid, or even high tier characters then you should just stop typing and shut off yoru computer.

 

[sheepyman]

lol, thats all i have to say

If you think sheild size is a joke, then maybe you should stop typing and shut off your computer.

hats because azen and cj are better players. and kdj won because he beat m2k with mindgames, not character strengths.

Odd how they consistently place lower, eh?

And don't rationalize a result with "KDJ has better mindgames". Seriously, character choice/tech skill decide the outcome more than mindgames do, as long as the person isn't a repititive moron, which I would hope you're not implying about Ken.

If it were a counter you wouldn't be seeing lower ranked players win 3-0. It just wouldn't happen. Eitherway, Azen would have to be a god to beat Chu, the best ICs player, with Sheik if it were a counter.

Anyways, my point is that Sheiks like Isai, KDJ, and Azen have incredibly good records. There are just way more Foxes to compensate for that. Ken, M2K, KDJ, PC, and the list just goes on and on. Drephen is short of the god-Sheik category, as he's never placed nearly as well at an MLG.

if you are suggesting fox has trouble with any low, mid, or even high tier characters then you should just stop typing and shut off yoru computer.

I'm not saying he has trouble, I'm saying Sheik has even less trouble.


And again, I'm saying she's even with Fox. Fox has his upsides in the matchup, but Sheik can needlecamp, grabcombo, has effective tilts and smashes, etc. He can waveshine u-smash for about 25 percent. Sheik has way more power with a grab than Fox does. Fox can put on more pressure and has lots of kill power vertically. He can spam lasers. Yeah, they both have their upsides, but the matchup still is even. And a simple throw or bair will get Fox off the edge, priming him for gimping.

EDIT: Just so you know, Robmoney has also beaten M2K. He got nearly 4stocked in a ditto Sheik match.

EDIT2: CJ better than M2K or KDJ? You better be joking.

 

[TomH]

Why would someone try to argue that their character isnt the best? its just silly.

If you dont think Sheik is the best character, dont play as sheik. if you do, then play as sheik.

This argument is the reverse. People who DONT play as sheik (Njzsfinest, Doodah, Mew2king) are arguing that sheik is the best. and people who DO play as sheik arguing that he isnt the best.

is this argument for johning privledges or something?

Look, if you REALLY think sheik is the best, PLAY AS SHEIK. if you really dont think sheik is the best DONT PLAY AS SHEIK.

I personally think that either fox or sheik is the best (and i think falco is garbage), but fox doesnt fit my playstyle at all, so i gotta play as sheik whether or not fox is better...

 

[Plairnkk]

Like i said, if Sheik is so good, play her and win tournaments.

But no wait, i expect the answer, "NO I DONT WANNA PLAY SHEIK, SHES TEH GAY LOLZ"

Or maybe you just can't.

 

[ShackDaddy]

the only reason i see sheik not being "the best" is that she has no Spike(theyre just fun to do) and she doesnt shffl as well as others such as jiggs, link, fox, falco, c.falcon, etc.

 

[Ares726]

Sheik also has 2 wasted spots on her move list: downB and sideB. Nobody plays as Zelda, and Sheik's chain doesn't even grapple the stage.

 

[sheepyman]

Wow, you guys don't really aren't big readers, are you?

This isn't to say that Sheik is the best character in the game. This is to say Sheik/Fox/Falco/Marth are the best characters in the game, and trying to order them is splitting hairs. Personally, I think Marth is just a tad bit weaker than the other three, and the only reason people like Azen/Ken use them is because when you have mindgames like they do, his brute power is incredibly difficult to stop, and your weaknessess are lessened. However, that's pure opinion. If I were making a tier list, I'd just write "Falco/Fox/Marth/Sheik" all in the 1st position on the list.

 

[Hank McCoy]

If you think sheild size is a joke, then maybe you should stop typing and shut off your computer.

im sorry, but shield size is only an issue with dk and gw and yoshi, other than that, shield size really doesnt matter.

Odd how they consistently place lower, eh?

azen > m2k/kdj

And don't rationalize a result with "KDJ has better mindgames". Seriously, character choice/tech skill decide the outcome more than mindgames do, as long as the person isn't a repititive moron, which I would hope you're not implying about Ken.

yes, mindgames do ****ing matter, theya re the most important thing in the game

If it were a counter you wouldn't be seeing lower ranked players win 3-0. It just wouldn't happen. Eitherway, Azen would have to be a god to beat Chu, the best ICs player, with Sheik if it were a counter.

you said it yourself, azen IS a god.

Anyways, my point is that Sheiks like Isai, KDJ, and Azen have incredibly good records. There are just way more Foxes to compensate for that. Ken, M2K, KDJ, PC, and the list just goes on and on. Drephen is short of the god-Sheik category, as he's never placed nearly as well at an MLG.

but when have they won a tourney?

Sheik can needlecamp,

thats like saying "because falco can sit on the side and shoot lasers he will win. in theory it looks sound, but in practice it never happens, as long as you know wtf youa re doing

grabcombo,

you must mean tech chasing, because shiek has no combos out of a grab. and alot of people have tech chasing, like falcon. but he sure as hell doesnt go even with space animals.

has effective tilts and smashes, etc.

all of her tilts are easily di'd out of, especially with space animals cuz of fall speed. and smashes? LOL. she has 1 good smash on them. no fsmash isnt good, sorry. and alot of people have good smashes. so far you havent presented any real reason as to why she goes even

He can waveshine u-smash for about 25 percent.

ok, then drill shine grab uthrow uair

Sheik has way more power with a grab than Fox does.

false

And a simple throw or bair will get Fox off the edge, priming him for gimping.

fox can throw shiek off and shine spike just as easy.

EDIT: Just so you know, Robmoney has also beaten M2K. He got nearly 4stocked in a ditto Sheik match.

it COULDNT be because rob$ is garbs in shiek dittos? could it?

EDIT2: CJ better than M2K or KDJ? You better be joking.

thats no ****ing joke

 

[sheepyman]

In the matchup? She most certainly does have more power with a grab. Yeah, I misspoke when I said grabcombo, but she can easily do as much damage as shine->u-smash with a grab.

uthrow uair doesn't work on Sheik.

and is CJ ALSO garbs in Sheik dittos? Because M2K was beating him in Sheik dittos too.

she has way more range than Fox, and with proper spacing can keep Fox out

im sorry, but shield size is only an issue with dk and gw and yoshi, other than that, shield size really doesnt matter.

false

 

[ZoSo]

I love when people who don't know what they're talking about argue with other people who don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Mr.C]

fox/falco > everyone in the game

dont argue it

 

[sheepyman]

I love when people make posts about how they "love when people...". It's just really witty and original.

Oh wait, no it isn't.

I think saying Fox/Falco > all is almost right

Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth > rest is correct, as far as I can see.

 

[Aesir]

No I think fox/falco > everyone is correct.

Sheik has problems with the IC's

marth has some even match ups the lower you go on the tier list. (marth vs link is what I'm hinting at)