Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[conTAgi0n]

Maybe you don’t remember but the franchise essentially jumped ship from being a huge Nintendo franchise in the 5th and 6th generation of consoles aside from handhelds, where there was no realistic competition to the game boy. Claiming Megaman is entirely loyal to Nintendo is just flat out wrong. Besides Nintendo loyalty doesn’t mean anything to third parties anyway. Only popularity matters and importance to gaming history. Out of our current third parties, none can be said to be in due to Nintendo loyalty. Bayo is in due to ballot. Snake Cloud and Ryu due to gaming importance. Sonic due to rivalry. Megaman and PacMan were in there for being gaming icons. Clinging to some idea of Nintendo loyalty is like me saying Travis Touchdown should be likely over other characters due to being primarily on Nintendo systems. The best arguement for Shantae is popularity, which is the only reason that I did not rate her lower. Shantae seems more popular then she is due to how dedicated her fans are.

Let me start by saying I really do appreciate you sharing your opinion with us, I think these discussions are healthy to have. But there is a lot of baseless assumption to unpack in here.

Maybe you don’t remember but the franchise essentially jumped ship from being a huge Nintendo franchise in the 5th and 6th generation of consoles aside from handhelds, where there was no realistic competition to the game boy. Claiming Megaman is entirely loyal to Nintendo is just flat out wrong.

Loyalty is probably not the right way to frame these types of relationships. It's not as though videogame characters are cheating on Nintendo when they move to a different console. Third party characters are basically always multiplat. Why on earth wouldn't they be?

During the NES era, Mega Man was a huge part of Nintendo's history, and vice versa. That probably was a big plus for Mega Man's inclusion. I don't think it's coincidence that they went with a retro style Mega Man reminiscent of his NES days. Of course, Mega Man had a lot going for him anyway.

Besides Nintendo loyalty doesn’t mean anything to third parties anyway. Only popularity matters and importance to gaming history.

So little is known about the way Sakurai selects third party characters, I don't know how you can possibly make a statement like that so confidently. Smash has always served as a celebration of Nintendo's past and present, so some sort of relationship or history with Nintendo almost certainly does affect the chances of third party characters. Cloud proves that it's not a strict requirement, but that is a very long way from proving it doesn't matter. Every other third party character ever included does have significant ties with Nintendo.

Out of our current third parties, none can be said to be in due to Nintendo loyalty. Bayo is in due to ballot. Snake Cloud and Ryu due to gaming importance. Sonic due to rivalry. Megaman and PacMan were in there for being gaming icons.

Again, just because no third party has gotten into Smash based purely off of history with Nintendo does not show that it isn't an important factor in their consideration. A factor need not be sufficient or necessary to be important.

You also state very authoritatively why each of these characters got into Smash, but I don't think anyone really knows the whole story.

Bayo - is she really in just because she won the ballot? Are we even sure she won the ballot at all? A lot of people, myself included, speculate that work must have started on her well before the ballot concluded, given how far along her development was by the time her trailer aired just two months later. You couldn't even settle the legal arrangements that fast.

Regardless of her success in the Ballot, which we can only take Nintendo's word for, it's unlikely they would have picked her as the winner if they didn't have other reasons for being in favor of her inclusion. Dare I say, one of those reasons may have been her very close relationship with Nintendo. Nintendo really snagged a gem by securing the Bayonetta franchise as Nintendo exclusive. For that reason, it makes a lot of business sense for them to show her off in Smash.

It is well-known that Snake was included more as a personal favor by Sakurai to Kojima, a longtime friend of his.

Sonic due to "rivalry"... By the time Sonic was included, there was no rivalry between Nintendo and Sega. I think what you mean is that Sonic was included due to his history as Mario's main rival. I would say that rivalry is a very real history that Sonic shared with Nintendo, but let's not quibble over that.

Anyways, let's move on.

Clinging to some idea of Nintendo loyalty is like me saying Travis Touchdown should be likely over other characters due to being primarily on Nintendo systems.

That sounds reasonable to me though. Travis Touchdown seems much more likely to me for having appeared primarily on Nintendo consoles than if he had appeared primarily on PlayStation or whatever. I don't think his chances are fantastic, but I think he's a lot more likely than, say, Dante from Devil May Cry.

The best arguement for Shantae is popularity, which is the only reason that I did not rate her lower. Shantae seems more popular then she is due to how dedicated her fans are.

I think there are a lot of important arguments that come together in favor of Shantae besides her popularity, but I want to focus on the latter statement here.

What is your basis for believing Shantae is more popular than she seems, as opposed to any of the other ballot characters? What makes it so that the online evidence for her popularity, specifically, is misleading in a way that the evidence for other popular characters is not? If Shantae seems popular online, wouldn't the simpler explanation simply be that she genuinely gained a lot of popularity and support through the Smash Ballot?

 

[Shinuto]

Something I want to bring up is I've noticed on Wayforward's twitter to an extent and especially Matt Bozon's Twitter, that it has been retweeted tweets from Japan. Does anyone have an idea of how good Shantae is getting received over there, that could certainly play a part in her chances.

 

[WingedSupernova]

Something I want to bring up is I've noticed on Wayforward's twitter to an extent and especially Matt Bozon's Twitter, that it has been retweeted tweets from Japan. Does anyone have an idea of how good Shantae is getting received over there, that could certainly play a part in her chances.

I have no idea for certain, but I've heard others say she has a decent niche following there especially from the art community. They said there were a lot of people drawing art for her on DeviantArt over there.

 

[ProtoTwi]

Something I want to bring up is I've noticed on Wayforward's twitter to an extent and especially Matt Bozon's Twitter, that it has been retweeted tweets from Japan. Does anyone have an idea of how good Shantae is getting received over there, that could certainly play a part in her chances.

I've been unable to find any hard data. It seems to be doing ok.

The physical edition of half genie hero comes out in May 31st in Japan. I was gonna see if I can stalk whatever their Amazon equivalent is to see where that game ends up on their best seller list.

 

[Shinuto]

I have no idea for certain, but I've heard others say she has a decent niche following there especially from the art community. They said there were a lot of people drawing art for her on DeviantArt over there.

Hmm I wonder how her reception compares to others in her field.

 

[conTAgi0n]

I remember seeing some figure about how Pirate's Curse doing pretty well when it dropped on 3DS over there, top 20 or 30 in sales for the period it came out. Take it with a grain of salt though, because I can't find the article now though, and I'm not quite motivated enough to dig through dozens and dozens of pages in the last Shantae support thread, which is probably where I saw it originally.

We at least know that there are lots of Japanese Shantae fans, based on the Japanese Shantae fan art output on Twitter alone. There was even this very nice fan drawing by no less than the character designer for WarioWare and Rhythm Heaven: https://www.instagram.com/p/6YtJXMtq5C/

Knowing that she has plenty of Japanese fans is encouraging, but it doesn't really tell us much about the scale of Shantae's popularity in Japan relative to other requested characters. Every now and then you see some secondhand reports about what is different between Japanese character requests vs. Western requests. One difference I've seen mentioned more than once is that indies are notably absent from Japanese wishlists and character discussions, compared with the West. And maybe that they are more conservative about third party characters in general.

Having some presence and fans in Japan is good for Shantae's chances regardless, but I don't think she or any other indies (or probably any non-Japanese characters to be honest) got hardly any votes at all over there.

 

[Shinuto]

I remember seeing some figure about how Pirate's Curse doing pretty well when it dropped on 3DS over there, top 20 or 30 in sales for the period it came out. Take it with a grain of salt though, because I can't find the article now though, and I'm not quite motivated enough to dig through dozens and dozens of pages in the last Shantae support thread, which is probably where I saw it originally.

We at least know that there are lots of Japanese Shantae fans, based on the Japanese Shantae fan art output on Twitter alone. There was even this very nice fan drawing by no less than the character designer for WarioWare and Rhythm Heaven: https://www.instagram.com/p/6YtJXMtq5C/

Knowing that she has plenty of Japanese fans is encouraging, but it doesn't really tell us much about the scale of Shantae's popularity in Japan relative to other requested characters. Every now and then you see some secondhand reports about what is different between Japanese character requests vs. Western requests. One difference I've seen mentioned more than once is that indies are notably absent from Japanese wishlists and character discussions, compared with the West. And maybe that they are more conservative about third party characters in general.

Having some presence and fans in Japan is good for Shantae's chances regardless, but I don't think she or any other indies (or probably any non-Japanese characters to be honest) got hardly any votes at all over there.

I just hope that Sakurai by a slim possiblity might be aware of this niche fanbase for Shantae and if we DO et indie representation it could help sway things in her favor.

 

[ProtoTwi]

So I was feeling pretty froggy and thought I'll try to figure out of i can find any hard data on Shantae's popularity in Japan and I have found metric that isn't perfect but it's better then nothing. Amazon sales rankings.

These rankings are far from perfect as they can very easily fail wildly on an hour to hour basis. And they seem to be based off "Time between sales at that time, rather then pure units sold". So newer titles would of course rank higher. And old games would stay low. All this does is give us a really rough idea. So we can't truly compare say HGH on Switch to Shovel Knight 3ds, Even if 2 titles were close in release its probably a bad idea to compare Amazon rankings for older titles,
Also this is only 1 site, i don't know how big Amazon is in JP, but its a small sample size, as it doesn't track Digital or other stores.

What's is important is the US and JP site seems to be separate (i used Mario Odyssey to test) .
and when its Labed as (in video games) it seems to be ALL of gaming, Games, consoles, accessories etc.

Shantae Games Amazon Rankings in the US as of 3-23-2018 2:30 pm

1. Shantae: Half-Genie Hero – Ultimate Day One Edition - Nintendo Switch
   #381 in Video Games
2. Shantae: Half-Genie Hero - PlayStation 4
   #7,010 in Video Games.
   #722 in PS4
   
3. Shantae: Half-Genie Hero - Risky Beats Edition - PlayStation 4
   #11,648 in video games.
   #974 in PS4
   
4. Shantae: Half-Genie Hero - Risky Beats Edition - Wii U
   #11,721 in Gaming
   #198 in Wii U

There are a couple of limited run physical carts listed on amazon for her ds/3ds games, but they are limited run so its not really worth putting. As HGH was really the only Shantae game to get a FULL retail release in america. (not counting GBC)

Spoiler: Source listings

1. https://www.amazon.com/Shantae-Half...e=UTF8&qid=1521837855&sr=8-3&keywords=Shantae
2. https://www.amazon.com/Shantae-Half...8&qid=1521837855&sr=8-4&keywords=Shantae&th=1
3. https://www.amazon.com/Shantae-Half...8&qid=1521837855&sr=8-6&keywords=Shantae&th=1
4. https://www.amazon.com/Shantae-Half...8&qid=1521837855&sr=8-5&keywords=Shantae&th=1

Now with that lets move to Amazon JP, as of 3/23/18 at 2:30 PM
Using Google Translate so titles a bit wonky. But note Shantae did have a full retail release of pirates curse 3ds in JP.

1. Shanti: Half · Geeney Hero Ultimate Edition (Switch) Game
   #721 in Games
   #56th in Switch
2. Shantae: Risky Beats Edition (輸入版:北米) - PS4 (couldnt Translate this page.)
   #15,366 in Games
   #1213 in Ps4
3. Shanti: Half · Geeney Hero Ultimate · Edition PS4
   #893 in Games,
   #200 in PS4
4. Shanty - Curse of the Pirate - - 3DS
   #7,018 in games,
   #528 in 3ds
5. Shantae: Half Genie Hero Risky Beat Wii U.
   #39,203 in games (i think)
   #1341 in what looks like Switch accessories
   I couldn't google translate this page.

Spoiler: Amazon JP Listings

1. https://www.amazon.co.jp/シャンティ-アルティ...e=UTF8&qid=1521838981&sr=8-2&keywords=shantae
   
2. https://www.amazon.co.jp/Shantae-Ri...e=UTF8&qid=1521838981&sr=8-3&keywords=shantae
   
3. https://www.amazon.co.jp/シャンティ-ハーフ・...e=UTF8&qid=1521838981&sr=8-5&keywords=shantae
   
4. https://www.amazon.co.jp/インターグロー-シャ...e=UTF8&qid=1521838981&sr=8-6&keywords=shantae
   
5. https://www.amazon.co.jp/Shantae-Ha..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=7WJGWRD2312ZD0MPWG4V

This is the best metric of her popularity in JP I could find. Plus Shanti is my favorite half geeney lol

 

[Shinuto]

So I was feeling pretty froggy and thought I'll try to figure out of i can find any hard data on Shantae's popularity in Japan and I have found metric that isn't perfect but it's better then nothing. Amazon sales rankings.

These rankings are far from perfect as they can very easily fail wildly on an hour to hour basis. And they seem to be based off "Time between sales at that time, rather then pure units sold". So newer titles would of course rank higher. And old games would stay low. All this does is give us a really rough idea. So we can't truly compare say HGH on Switch to Shovel Knight 3ds, Even if 2 titles were close in release its probably a bad idea to compare Amazon rankings for older titles,
Also this is only 1 site, i don't know how big Amazon is in JP, but its a small sample size, as it doesn't track Digital or other stores.

What's is important is the US and JP site seems to be separate (i used Mario Odyssey to test) .
and when its Labed as (in video games) it seems to be ALL of gaming, Games, consoles, accessories etc.

Shantae Games Amazon Rankings in the US as of 3-23-2018 2:30 pm

1. Shantae: Half-Genie Hero – Ultimate Day One Edition - Nintendo Switch
   #381 in Video Games
2. Shantae: Half-Genie Hero - PlayStation 4
   #7,010 in Video Games.
   #722 in PS4
   
3. Shantae: Half-Genie Hero - Risky Beats Edition - PlayStation 4
   #11,648 in video games.
   #974 in PS4
   
4. Shantae: Half-Genie Hero - Risky Beats Edition - Wii U
   #11,721 in Gaming
   #198 in Wii U

There are a couple of limited run physical carts listed on amazon for her ds/3ds games, but they are limited run so its not really worth putting. As HGH was really the only Shantae game to get a FULL retail release in america. (not counting GBC)

Spoiler: Source listings

1. https://www.amazon.com/Shantae-Half...e=UTF8&qid=1521837855&sr=8-3&keywords=Shantae
2. https://www.amazon.com/Shantae-Half...8&qid=1521837855&sr=8-4&keywords=Shantae&th=1
3. https://www.amazon.com/Shantae-Half...8&qid=1521837855&sr=8-6&keywords=Shantae&th=1
4. https://www.amazon.com/Shantae-Half...8&qid=1521837855&sr=8-5&keywords=Shantae&th=1

Now with that lets move to Amazon JP, as of 3/23/18 at 2:30 PM
Using Google Translate so titles a bit wonky. But note Shantae did have a full retail release of pirates curse 3ds in JP.

1. Shanti: Half · Geeney Hero Ultimate Edition (Switch) Game
   #721 in Games
   #56th in Switch
2. Shantae: Risky Beats Edition (輸入版:北米) - PS4 (couldnt Translate this page.)
   #15,366 in Games
   #1213 in Ps4
3. Shanti: Half · Geeney Hero Ultimate · Edition PS4
   #893 in Games,
   #200 in PS4
4. Shanty - Curse of the Pirate - - 3DS
   #7,018 in games,
   #528 in 3ds
5. Shantae: Half Genie Hero Risky Beat Wii U.
   #39,203 in games (i think)
   #1341 in what looks like Switch accessories
   I couldn't google translate this page.

Spoiler: Amazon JP Listings

1. https://www.amazon.co.jp/シャンティ-アルティメット・エディション-【パッケージ版特典】オリジナルリバーシブルジャケット-【早期購入特典】オリジナルキーチェーン-【Amazon-co-jp限定】オリジナルミニアートブック/dp/B07B3QNY8Z/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521838981&sr=8-2&keywords=shantae
   
2. https://www.amazon.co.jp/Shantae-Risky-Beats-輸入版-PS4/dp/B01GTVDX16/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1521838981&sr=8-3&keywords=shantae
   
3. https://www.amazon.co.jp/シャンティ-ハーフ・ジーニー-アルティメット・エディション-【予約特典】オリジナル-【Amazon-co-jp限定】オリジナル/dp/B079ZY81MR/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1521838981&sr=8-5&keywords=shantae
   
4. https://www.amazon.co.jp/インターグロー-シャンティ-海賊の呪い-3DS/dp/B015X4WZNW/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1521838981&sr=8-6&keywords=shantae
   
5. https://www.amazon.co.jp/Shantae-Ha..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=7WJGWRD2312ZD0MPWG4V

This is the best metric of her popularity in JP I could find. Plus Shanti is my favorite half geeney lol

Hmm now to compare Shovel Knight....

 

[ProtoTwi]

Hmm now to compare Shovel Knight....

The only way we could even come close to directly compare with Shovel Knight was if a Shantae and Shovel game were released at the same time right now.

This stuff I found does show there is a demand for Shantae in Japan. She's 54th right now on switch. And is just a pre-order. She could climb a bit closer to launch date.

 

[Shinuto]

Okay so if Shantae got in as say just a mii costume how would everyone here react?

I at least would be intially saddened but be really happy cause this could greatly mean her being playable next time.

 

[ProtoTwi]

Okay so if Shantae got in as say just a mii costume how would everyone here react?

I at least would be intially saddened but be really happy cause this could greatly mean her being playable next time.

Honestly she is far too unique as a character she doesn't quite fit any of the mii archetypes.
You could make an argument that Shantae does have Risky's Sword. But its a bit of a stretch.

 

[Shinuto]

Honestly she is far too unique as a character she doesn't quite fit any of the mii archetypes.
You could make an argument that Shantae does have Risky's Sword. But its a bit of a stretch.

I could at least see her as a brawler

Cause I mean Ashley and Viridi got made into swordsman costumes.

 

[RetroMetalSonic]

Okay so if Shantae got in as say just a mii costume how would everyone here react?

I at least would be intially saddened but be really happy cause this could greatly mean her being playable next time.

I'd be a bit disappointed that she's not playable at first, but I would be happy that she was at least acknowledged in some way. Then I'd be hopeful that she'll get the Inkling treatment next time.

 

[WingedSupernova]

I could at least see her as a brawler

Cause I mean Ashley and Viridi got made into swordsman costumes.

I'd honestly be pretty disappointed. I'd rather see her as an assist trophy than a Mii costume.

 

[ProtoTwi]

I could at least see her as a brawler

Cause I mean Ashley and Viridi got made into swordsman costumes.

She does have her fighter moves. So it's not too crazy.

 

[Shinuto]

She does have her fighter moves. So it's not too crazy.

i do hope we get more than Commander Video this time in terms of indie representation.

 

[Shadow Novus]

Okay so if Shantae got in as say just a mii costume how would everyone here react?

I at least would be intially saddened but be really happy cause this could greatly mean her being playable next time.

Not sure how I'd react to that...I'd probably be immensely disappointed
Actually, I'd be more upset that Miis are still a thing (never was a fan) and I wouldn't mind them being phased out of the next game.

 

[Shinuto]

Not sure how I'd react to that...I'd probably be immensely disappointed
Actually, I'd be more upset that Miis are still a thing (never was a fan) and I wouldn't mind them being phased out of the next game.

Hmm so this assumes you think they'll ne indie representation at all in the game beyond a costume? Cause I think that getting even a costume as an indie rep means big things for potential futures.

 

[Shadow Novus]

Hmm so this assumes you think they'll ne indie representation at all in the game beyond a costume? Cause I think that getting even a costume as an indie rep means big things for potential futures.

Oh I'm sure it would be a big step for Shantae's representation. But I'd still be disappointed since, yeah, it would improve her chances in the future maybe, but it still means being a long ways off from seeing her fully realized as a character. Call me selfish but I'd still like to be alive if/when Shantae makes a full character appearance, I'm not getting any younger

Also just...personal bias here but....I can't stand Miis. Iv'e always considered them an unnecessary thing...plus they're just, creepy x_x

 

[Shinuto]

Oh I'm sure it would be a big step for Shantae's representation. But I'd still be disappointed since, yeah, it would improve her chances in the future maybe, but it still means being a long ways off from seeing her fully realized as a character. Call me selfish but I'd still like to be alive if/when Shantae makes a full character appearance, I'm not getting any younger

Also just...personal bias here but....I can't stand Miis. Iv'e always considered them an unnecessary thing...plus they're just, creepy x_x

Dude come on, I mean how old are you, if she got in as a costume this game she'd most likely be almost definite by next game which would be at most I'd see 8 years. LOL!

but any representation at all, for me would be great


but uhhh let's try and get playable status.

 

[ProtoTwi]

I'd be happy seeing her in any capacity except Mii Fighter.

If she isn't a playable character I could totally see an assist trophy.

Spawns in. Does a dance, Transforms in to a random animal, And attacks enemies

 

[conTAgi0n]

That's interesting data ProtoTwi , thanks for compiling it. Some actual numbers for a change.

Just to be clear though, I would not think of those numbers as evidence about Shantae's overall exposure in Japan. I do not think it is safe to assume that Amazon JP sales are a reliable proxy for a game's overall sales, especially since Shantae is probably mostly digital. Also, current rankings don't necessarily tell us much about lifetime sales, unfortunately.

It does show that she's not a total zero over there, at least in terms of sales. Whether Japanese gamers are requesting her in Smash is a different question - the answer to which is probably no. Whether Japanese gamers would react positively or negatively to her inclusion is a separate question from that too. I don't think I need to explain why Shantae's character design would probably go over very well in Japan.



As for the Mii costume vs. Assist Trophy debate, I never really cared for Mii fighters or their Mii costumes. Rather than making me feel like I'm playing as the character represented by that costume, they make me feel like I'm playing as a haunted mannequin who murdered that character and is now wearing their skin. Plus, using "Shantae" and not being able to hair whip would feel so wrong to me. If it meant she was a shoo-in for the next Smash, I'd live with it, but I don't think that getting a costume is all that promising. An Assist Trophy would at least give us a Shantae that actually looked like and acted like Shantae. Plus Little Mac was able to graduate from Assist Trophy to real character, so it would actually be a pretty good sign.

I agree though that any representation is better than no representation.

I just hope that Sakurai by a slim possiblity might be aware of this niche fanbase for Shantae and if we DO et indie representation it could help sway things in her favor.

I would assume that if Sakurai and friends end up seriously discussing the possibility of including Shantae, they will probably have a report available on her that includes figures like total lifetime eshop sales for Shantae games in different regions.

Buckle up for some unadulterated speculation. I imagine that the process for choosing characters for Smash Switch was vaguely similar to the following:

Initial character lists

Sakurai and his team have their own list of characters they are considering as candidates for inclusion, much of it inherited from previous Smash titles.

Nintendo higher ups also give to Sakurai a report on new titles that they would like to see featured, plus Nintendo's priorities across the Switch lifetime, and how this might influence roster composition.

New to this iteration, either Sakurai's team or Nintendo compiles a report on data collected from the Smash Ballot. This will probably include mini-reports compiled by NoJ, NoA, and NoE for region-specific results. These reports would start with a short summary, which will include general trends (e.g. "indie" characters collectively recieved many votes), and note any significant gender differences, since that is the only piece of demographic information the Smash Ballot requested. They will also include a list of popular character requests, and a list of popular franchises, both sorted by popularity. Of course those results would be translated into Japanese, and have "non-serious" suggestions filtered out into a different section, and common spelling variations combined (e.g. "Banjo Kazooie" and "Banjo & Kazooie").

Each list is probably cut to the top 30-50 most popular results.

Preliminary roster planning

Sakurai and his team start by deciding on tentative targets for overall roster size, and for how many newcomers will be included. In previous installments, these were ambitious targets, with the thought that they could cut lower priority characters during development if necessary. This installment may be different, in that the game engine may be largely similar, and the overal roster size may not increase by so much.

They then sketch out a plan for allocating newcomer slots: 1 slot reserved to represent ARMS for example, 1 slot to represent the next gen of Pokémon, 1 new "oddball" choice, 1 new retro rep, 4-5 new third parties, etc. A few slots are left unallocated. The report provided to them from Nintendo higher ups probably helps shape this plan.

They then go through their own internal list of characters, and map them onto available slots. At least a few slots have a list of candidates attached to them by now.

Finally, they review the report on the Smash Ballot. At some meeting they discuss, among other things, results (or lack thereof) for relevant characters already under consideration, they identify any popular characters that are not already on their lists, and they make a note of any characters that they need more information on. They don't necessarily go through the lists character by character, but even the lower ends of the lists will at least get a look, especially if there is some character they don't recognize, or that someone thinks is just genuinely a good idea that merits further consideration.

Second round roster planning

In their next meeting, they focus on narrowing down the candidates to 1-2 per allocated roster spot. Any characters newly under consideration they discuss in more depth. Sakurai makes final decisions regarding moveset potential, and how a character would fit into the game from a gameplay perspective.

With their newly narrowed down list, they submit a report and/or have a meeting with Nintendo higher ups to present their decisions. The higher ups may simply greenlight their list, or more likely, suggest revisions or express preferences between the characters on the list.

Final round roster planning

The list of newcomers they have developed is probably still a little larger than their target for total newcomers. Now they make their final round of cuts, but this time they also consider the possibility of cutting veterans. An example would be if they narrow it down to two or three new Fire Emblem characters worth including, but are only willing to expand the number of FE characters by 1, or possibly even 0. They would likely consider eliminating one of the existing FE reps to make room for a new one.

Development begins

After the final round of cuts, the new roster is submitted for approval, and development on the new Smash begins. While the roster is basically finalized, things can always change during the development cycle. We know that characters were cut and added fairly late in the development cycles for previous Smash games, for a variety of reasons.

Third party characters are all tentative inclusions, and development for them is on hold until arrangements can be hammered out with their parent companies. They probably have some backup picks for third parties in case something falls through.



...



Of course I am just using my imagination here. It could go very differently. Perhaps Sakurai is mostly left to his own devices, for example.

If the process goes roughly like this, then how might things have unfolded for Shantae?

I doubt she is on their existing shortlist, but her name probably shows up in at least one of the lists of popular Smash Ballot characters. It isn't unrealistic to suppose it might show up surprisingly high on one of those lists. I could imagine Shantae getting passed over pretty quickly at this stage, but I could also imagine that Sakurai and co. decide they at least need more information on her. It is actually possible that Sakurai already knows of Shantae, given that he works in the industry. He knows of WayForward at least, and has met WayForward staff before: https://twitter.com/JamesPopStar/status/650072302378315776. A final possibility is that Nintendo higher ups instructed Sakurai that they would like some form of indie representation. In that scenario, Shantae would be almost guaranteed to receive consideration in the second round of roster planning.

If Shantae gets that far, she definitely has the opportunity to stand out, because she has so many obvious merits as a contender for a spot in Smash. No doubt Sakurai would see lots of very fun potential for a completely unique moveset. I mean, you can pretty much put together a unique Shantae moveset from watching like 30 seconds of gameplay. There's a lot for Sakurai to have fun with here. This is probably the stage where they would discuss things like, how well known is Shantae in the West? How well known is she in Japan? What are her sales figures like on the eshop? And a million other questions. Adding a third party character is a complex decision, and there are too many factors to even speculate about at this stage.

If they decide they really like both Shantae and Shovel Knight though, they could conceivably both survive to the third round of roster planning, and there is an outside chance that they could both survive past that round too.



I hope you can all forgive my self indulgence here, but I think it's a worthwhile thought experiment. When you start trying to work out the nuts and bolts about how those decisions might get made, it makes it easier to ponder questions like, how will Shantae's popularity in Japan affect her chances? Of course we still don't really know anything, but we start to get an idea of how such considerations might be framed.




EDIT: Here's your Mii costume

 

[Shinuto]

That's interesting data ProtoTwi , thanks for compiling it. Some actual numbers for a change.

Just to be clear though, I would not think of those numbers as evidence about Shantae's overall exposure in Japan. I do not think it is safe to assume that Amazon JP sales are a reliable proxy for a game's overall sales, especially since Shantae is probably mostly digital. Also, current rankings don't necessarily tell us much about lifetime sales, unfortunately.

It does show that she's not a total zero over there, at least in terms of sales. Whether Japanese gamers are requesting her in Smash is a different question - the answer to which is probably no. Whether Japanese gamers would react positively or negatively to her inclusion is a separate question from that too. I don't think I need to explain why Shantae's character design would probably go over very well in Japan.



As for the Mii costume vs. Assist Trophy debate, I never really cared for Mii fighters or their Mii costumes. Rather than making me feel like I'm playing as the character represented by that costume, they make me feel like I'm playing as a haunted mannequin who murdered that character and is now wearing their skin. Plus, using "Shantae" and not being able to hair whip would feel so wrong to me. If it meant she was a shoo-in for the next Smash, I'd live with it, but I don't think that getting a costume is all that promising. An Assist Trophy would at least give us a Shantae that actually looked like and acted like Shantae. Plus Little Mac was able to graduate from Assist Trophy to real character, so it would actually be a pretty good sign.

I agree though that any representation is better than no representation.





I would assume that if Sakurai and friends end up seriously discussing the possibility of including Shantae, they will probably have a report available on her that includes figures like total lifetime eshop sales for Shantae games in different regions.

Buckle up for some unadulterated speculation. I imagine that the process for choosing characters for Smash Switch was vaguely similar to the following:

Initial character lists

Sakurai and his team have their own list of characters they are considering as candidates for inclusion, much of it inherited from previous Smash titles.

Nintendo higher ups also give to Sakurai a report on new titles that they would like to see featured, plus Nintendo's priorities across the Switch lifetime, and how this might influence roster composition.

New to this iteration, either Sakurai's team or Nintendo compiles a report on data collected from the Smash Ballot. This will probably include mini-reports compiled by NoJ, NoA, and NoE for region-specific results. These reports would start with a short summary, which will include general trends (e.g. "indie" characters collectively recieved many votes), and note any significant gender differences, since that is the only piece of demographic information the Smash Ballot requested. They will also include a list of popular character requests, and a list of popular franchises, both sorted by popularity. Of course those results would be translated into Japanese, and have "non-serious" suggestions filtered out into a different section, and common spelling variations combined (e.g. "Banjo Kazooie" and "Banjo & Kazooie").

Each list is probably cut to the top 30-50 most popular results.

Preliminary roster planning

Sakurai and his team start by deciding on tentative targets for overall roster size, and for how many newcomers will be included. In previous installments, these were ambitious targets, with the thought that they could cut lower priority characters during development if necessary. This installment may be different, in that the game engine may be largely similar, and the overal roster size may not increase by so much.

They then sketch out a plan for allocating newcomer slots: 1 slot reserved to represent ARMS for example, 1 slot to represent the next gen of Pokémon, 1 new "oddball" choice, 1 new retro rep, 4-5 new third parties, etc. A few slots are left unallocated. The report provided to them from Nintendo higher ups probably helps shape this plan.

They then go through their own internal list of characters, and map them onto available slots. At least a few slots have a list of candidates attached to them by now.

Finally, they review the report on the Smash Ballot. At some meeting they discuss, among other things, results (or lack thereof) for relevant characters already under consideration, they identify any popular characters that are not already on their lists, and they make a note of any characters that they need more information on. They don't necessarily go through the lists character by character, but even the lower ends of the lists will at least get a look, especially if there is some character they don't recognize, or that someone thinks is just genuinely a good idea that merits further consideration.

Second round roster planning

In their next meeting, they focus on narrowing down the candidates to 1-2 per allocated roster spot. Any characters newly under consideration they discuss in more depth. Sakurai makes final decisions regarding moveset potential, and how a character would fit into the game from a gameplay perspective.

With their newly narrowed down list, they submit a report and/or have a meeting with Nintendo higher ups to present their decisions. The higher ups may simply greenlight their list, or more likely, suggest revisions or express preferences between the characters on the list.

Final round roster planning

The list of newcomers they have developed is probably still a little larger than their target for total newcomers. Now they make their final round of cuts, but this time they also consider the possibility of cutting veterans. An example would be if they narrow it down to two or three new Fire Emblem characters worth including, but are only willing to expand the number of FE characters by 1, or possibly even 0. They would likely consider eliminating one of the existing FE reps to make room for a new one.

Development begins

After the final round of cuts, the new roster is submitted for approval, and development on the new Smash begins. While the roster is basically finalized, things can always change during the development cycle. We know that characters were cut and added fairly late in the development cycles for previous Smash games, for a variety of reasons.

Third party characters are all tentative inclusions, and development for them is on hold until arrangements can be hammered out with their parent companies. They probably have some backup picks for third parties in case something falls through.



...



Of course I am just using my imagination here. It could go very differently. Perhaps Sakurai is mostly left to his own devices, for example.

If the process goes roughly like this, then how might things have unfolded for Shantae?

I doubt she is on their existing shortlist, but her name probably shows up in at least one of the lists of popular Smash Ballot characters. It isn't unrealistic to suppose it might show up surprisingly high on one of those lists. I could imagine Shantae getting passed over pretty quickly at this stage, but I could also imagine that Sakurai and co. decide they at least need more information on her. It is actually possible that Sakurai already knows of Shantae, given that he works in the industry. He knows of WayForward at least, and has met WayForward staff before: https://twitter.com/JamesPopStar/status/650072302378315776. A final possibility is that Nintendo higher ups instructed Sakurai that they would like some form of indie representation. In that scenario, Shantae would be almost guaranteed to receive consideration in the second round of roster planning.

If Shantae gets that far, she definitely has the opportunity to stand out, because she has so many obvious merits as a contender for a spot in Smash. No doubt Sakurai would see lots of very fun potential for a completely unique moveset here. I mean, you can pretty much put together a unique Shantae moveset from watching like 30 seconds of gameplay. There's a lot for Sakurai to have fun with here. This is probably the stage where they would discuss things like, how well known is Shantae in the West? How well known is she in Japan? What are her sales figures like on the eshop? And a million other questions. Adding a third party character is a complex decision, and there are too many factors to even speculate about at this stage.

If they decide they really like both Shantae and Shovel Knight though, they could conceivably both survive to the third round of roster planning, and there is an outside chance that they could both survive past that round too.



I hope you can all forgive my self indulgence here, but I think it's a worthwhile thought experiment. When you start trying to work out the nuts and bolts about how those decisions might get made, it makes it easier to ponder questions like, how will Shantae's popularity in Japan affect her chances? Of course we still don't really know anything, but we start to get an idea of how such considerations might be framed.




EDIT: Here's your Mii costume

I like this speculative thinking. I do think something is likely to happen, Indies have been getting more and more cover from Nintendo recently.

Was that meeting with Wayforward by sheer chance or was it a scheduled thing? I remember hearing about it, but I never looked deeper into it.

Shantae gets in as a playable character, is the worst character in the game tier wise, like Kirby in Melee or Ganondorf in Brawl just basically near broken mechanically, never gets patched like Jigglypuff or Zelda in Sm4sh.

this would be me

 

[conTAgi0n]

I like this speculative thinking. I do think something is likely to happen, Indies have been getting more and more cover from Nintendo recently.

Was that meeting with Wayforward by sheer chance or was it a scheduled thing? I remember hearing about it, but I never looked deeper into it.

Shantae gets in as a playable character, is the worst character in the game tier wise, like Kirby in Melee or Ganondorf in Brawl just basically near broken mechanically, never gets patched like Jigglypuff or Zelda in Sm4sh.

this would be me

I have no idea what the context for that picture is. I tried looking for more information, but I don't think he said anything about when or where that picture was taking, just that he was "sharing a memory" or something like that.

If Shantae gets in the game I'll be ****ing ecstatic even if she's the worst character in the game. I legit think she'd end up high tier though. Hair whip would be an incredible spacing tool.

 

[Shinuto]

I have no idea what the context for that picture is. I tried looking for more information, but I don't think he said anything about when or where that picture was taking, just that he was "sharing a memory" or something like that.

If Shantae gets in the game I'll be ****ing ecstatic even if she's the worst character in the game. I legit think she'd end up high tier though. Hair whip would be an incredible spacing tool.

Oh yeah thats like my first thought on how her hair whip attack would work.

I just cant imagine what wacky fanart there'd be, Bayonetta dancing, Shantae messing with Diddy,

I know its bit odd to say, but I'll laugh if she has her little butt wiggle during her crouching animation.

 

[Staarih]

I remember seeing some figure about how Pirate's Curse doing pretty well when it dropped on 3DS over there, top 20 or 30 in sales for the period it came out.

Yeah, Pirate's Curse was #28 on it's first week in Japan, no actual sale numbers but #20 sold 5909 copies so it was less than that. I remember it being on-off on the Japanese eShop for a while though so digital sales helped a bit I guess. I predict Half-Genie Hero on the Switch will do fairly well though: when it was announced it jumped straight to top 10 on Amazon Japan - now it's off the list but will probably climb back up closer to release in May.

Not to compare with Shovel Knight but SK did do a bit better sales-wise in Japan... but Nintendo publishing and pushing the game probably helped. And sales are just one part of the whole picture. I do love my numbers though haha!

I have no idea for certain, but I've heard others say she has a decent niche following there especially from the art community. They said there were a lot of people drawing art for her on DeviantArt over there.

One aspect I expect Shantae to have an upper hand to many others is the fan art potential she has, and the more people love to draw her, the more exposure she gets which is always good.

 

[BigShad]

If Shantae gets in the game I'll be ****ing ecstatic even if she's the worst character in the game. I legit think she'd end up high tier though. Hair whip would be an incredible spacing tool.

I've always seen Shantae as a spacing/hit-and-run/baiting character, so I think depending on the mechanics for this new Switch game part of me hope it takes some inspiration from PM she definitely won't be Smash 4 Jigglypuff tier at the very least. To make her a faster character though, I've always thought of her transformations not being triggered by just holding the B button, but rather pressing B and then inputting a direction, while also having the transformation be timed with a limited move set (mainly because I doubt Sakurai would make an entire move set for all of her transformations)... though once it's up she could either get right back into the fight or do a short animation.

So theoretically, you could be in her Monkey form and do a small charge around the time the transformation ends, and have her end-frames be cancelled so she can chain into something heavier.

 

[MoveMan1]

Personally, my sense of nostalgia desires the GBC style of "hold and wait" dancing, but I can see how that would be impractical in a serious game of Smash.

But let's be real here: Her moveset won't be that complex, as Sakurai only goes that deep for series focused on getting combos.

 

[Shinuto]

Personally, my sense of nostalgia desires the GBC style of "hold and wait" dancing, but I can see how that would be impractical in a serious game of Smash.

But let's be real here: Her moveset won't be that complex, as Sakurai only goes that deep for series focused on getting combos.

I just want in some way her pirate's curse stuff, make like her dash attack that "Haaaah!" dash in that game with the sword.

Hypothetical thing I want to ask, if Shantae was 1st party, meaning she was a Nintendo IP, what do you think her chances would be?

 

[conTAgi0n]

The properties of Shantae's hair whip almost guarantee that it would be a top tier move. It can't be as fast as her upgraded hair whip in her games, or it would be broken (for that reason it shouldn't be her jab). But to be close enough to her games, it does have to be a relatively fast and safe move, with a disjointed hitbox and good range. That combination of traits makes for an incredibly powerful spacing tool. To compensate, Shantae would probably have a very slow walk, which works fine because she also has a very slow walk in her games. Her dash speed would probably be average. I'm thinking tied with Mario, Bayonetta, and Ryu sounds just right.

I imagine her triple fireball would be in her moveset, though it should definitely not be spammable. Her storm puff would be a good candidate also. All this adds up to a considerable zoning/trapping game. When you consider that her moves should also feel agile, and her recovery would probably be quite good, she's shaping up to be quite formidable. They will really have to make sure that Shantae doesn't have easy kill options.



The one rule I never want to see them break for Shantae is that she has to dance to transform. The "hold and wait" system would work great in Smash. The simpler they make her animal forms, the better. That way Sakurai could represent a shapeshifting character without having to re-introduce fully fledged transformation characters. If Shulk can have his Monado Arts, I don't think including this should be a problem.

No, you wouldn't be able to get away with transformations if your opponent is nearby, and you wouldn't be able instantly swap into a different form in the middle of a combo or whatever, but that's how it is in Shantae's games too. BigShad I think that for better or worse, it is very unlikely they are making a Melee or PM style game. Most likely, the engine will be very similar or the same as Smash 4. I personally prefer that anyways, I think the Smash 4 engine is great.

I think most of Shantae's moveset would consist of her pirate's gear and her magic spells. Her fighter's gear from the original would make for some great Smash attacks too. I actually once wrote up a complete moveset for her, but the computer it was on died. I can probably remember most of it, maybe I'll write it up again and post it sometime.

Oh yeah thats like my first thought on how her hair whip attack would work.

I just cant imagine what wacky fanart there'd be, Bayonetta dancing, Shantae messing with Diddy,

I know its bit odd to say, but I'll laugh if she has her little butt wiggle during her crouching animation.

Butt wiggle or riot. She does it in every game, it's a signature Shantae thing. There's no way Sakurai would leave out something like that.

Yeah, Pirate's Curse was #28 on it's first week in Japan, no actual sale numbers but #20 sold 5909 copies so it was less than that. I remember it being on-off on the Japanese eShop for a while though so digital sales helped a bit I guess. I predict Half-Genie Hero on the Switch will do fairly well though: when it was announced it jumped straight to top 10 on Amazon Japan - now it's off the list but will probably climb back up closer to release in May.

Not to compare with Shovel Knight but SK did do a bit better sales-wise in Japan... but Nintendo publishing and pushing the game probably helped. And sales are just one part of the whole picture. I do love my numbers though haha!


One aspect I expect Shantae to have an upper hand to many others is the fan art potential she has, and the more people love to draw her, the more exposure she gets which is always good.

I think that fan art is one of the things that propelled her to success in the Smash Ballot as well. Fan art is great for getting people's attention.



I just had an idea for this thread that I think might be fun. Why don't we go through and discuss each move in Shantae's moveset? We could tackle them in the following order:

Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Fsmash
Usmash
Dsmash
Dash attack
Nair
Fair
Uair
Dair
Bair

neutral B
side B
up B
down B

grab / pummel
forward throw
up throw
down throw
back throw

final smash

We could even set something like a 3-4 day period for discussion, and then a vote on our favorite idea for each move. Yellowlord could use his OP status to set polls for the thread, if he's up to it (I don't wanna just volunteer you in case you're busy).

Or we could just keep it casual and unstructured.

Is this something any of you would be interested in?

 

[Shinuto]

The properties of Shantae's hair whip almost guarantee that it would be a top tier move. It can't be as fast as her upgraded hair whip in her games, or it would be broken (for that reason it shouldn't be her jab). But to be close enough to her games, it does have to be a relatively fast and safe move, with a disjointed hitbox and good range. That combination of traits makes for an incredibly powerful spacing tool. To compensate, Shantae would probably have a very slow walk, which works fine because she also has a very slow walk in her games. Her dash speed would probably be average. I'm thinking tied with Mario, Bayonetta, and Ryu sounds just right.

I imagine her triple fireball would be in her moveset, though it should definitely not be spammable. Her storm puff would be a good candidate also. All this adds up to a considerable zoning/trapping game. When you consider that her moves should also feel agile, and her recovery would probably be quite good, she's shaping up to be quite formidable. They will really have to make sure that Shantae doesn't have easy kill options.



The one rule I never want to see them break for Shantae is that she has to dance to transform. The "hold and wait" system would work great in Smash. The simpler they make her animal forms, the better. That way Sakurai could represent a shapeshifting character without having to re-introduce fully fledged transformation characters. If Shulk can have his Monado Arts, I don't think including this should be a problem.

No, you wouldn't be able to get away with transformations if your opponent is nearby, and you wouldn't be able instantly swap into a different form in the middle of a combo or whatever, but that's how it is in Shantae's games too. BigShad I think that for better or worse, it is very unlikely they are making a Melee or PM style game. Most likely, the engine will be very similar or the same as Smash 4. I personally prefer that anyways, I think the Smash 4 engine is great.

I think most of Shantae's moveset would consist of her pirate's gear and her magic spells. Her fighter's gear from the original would make for some great Smash attacks too. I actually once wrote up a complete moveset for her, but the computer it was on died. I can probably remember most of it, maybe I'll write it up again and post it sometime.


Butt wiggle or riot. She does it in every game, it's a signature Shantae thing. There's no way Sakurai would leave out something like that.


I think that fan art is one of the things that propelled her to success in the Smash Ballot as well. Fan art is great for getting people's attention.



I just had an idea for this thread that I think might be fun. Why don't we go through and discuss each move in Shantae's moveset? We could tackle them in the following order:

Jab
Ftilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Fsmash
Usmash
Dsmash
Dash attack
Nair
Fair
Uair
Dair
Bair

neutral B
side B
up B
down B

grab / pummel
forward throw
up throw
down throw
back throw

final smash

We could even set something like a 3-4 day period for discussion, and then a vote on our favorite idea for each move. Yellowlord could use his OP status to set polls for the thread, if he's up to it (I don't wanna just volunteer you in case you're busy).

Or we could just keep it casual and unstructured.

Is this something any of you would be interested in?

Sounds fine. I personally think her hair whip COULD work as a jab, it would feel just right with how sh controls in game. It'd be like a better version of Pikachu's headbutt.

 

[ProtoTwi]

There are 2 moves that kinda NEED to translate 1.1 to smash,
Jab as hair whip.
dtilt crouching Hair whip. (complete with wiggle)

 

[Shinuto]

Jab - Shantae hair whip
Ftilt - Shnatae fires off Risky's Pistol
Utilt either hair upward or maybe fireball upward or bettter the upgraded version wheres its straight up a flamethrower.
Dtilt hair whip again
Fsmash spinning kick
Usmash
Dsmash
Dash attack
Nair hair whip
Fair
Uair
Dair
Bair

neutral B
side B
up B
down B

grab / pummel
forward throw
up throw
down throw
back throw

final smash


thats all I got so far, there so many ways her moveset could be done, either as a stance character via taking on different forms or just have them integerated into certain moves of her moveset.

 

[BigShad]

Oh hell yeah, here we go. I always have fun discussing moves.

Jab - Simple one-two punch into a kick. Nothing special, but great for poking at close range. Not much damage either and can be beaten out by jabs from characters who are faster and in your face.
Ftilt - Either a quick hair whip or a quick kick. If the former, it'd be a nice "get outta my hair" move.
Utilt - Hair whip ala Luigi's U-Tilt, but longer and slightly slower.
Dtilt - Hair whip, just like her game.
Fsmash - A variation of the elbow dash from Shantae GBC. Slightly propels her forward as she uses this, so space it right!
Usmash - Definitely the Spin Kick from Shantae GBC, with maybe less rising power. May or may not cancel into Drill Attack by pressing A at the end of her rise. Both moves can be read and punished though, so it's best used as a surprise option.
Dsmash - Briefly summons a pike ball to circle around her once.
Dash attack - A variation of the Twirl Attack from Shantae GBC but without the jump. think Mega Man's Dash Attack.
Nair - ???
Fair - Simple, long hair whip for spacing.
Uair - ???
Dair - Zelda kick?
Bair - A slow but strong kick backwards.

neutral B - If transformations are a thing... as much as I hate to admit it now (because I love fast-paced characters lol), I think the stop-and-go of her animal transformations would be the best thing to do here, since it'd be the most faithful to her games. Like her games, hold B to change what you transform into. Otherwise, it could be a fireball that you can make into 3 via charging.
side B - Storm Puff. Kinda works like a timed bomb like in her games.
up B - Grabs her cannon from Pirate's Curse and shoots downward, propelling her up pretty high.
down B - Briefly dashes with her schimar (did I say it right), ala FALCON KICK!

grab / pummel -- Grabs 'em with her hair. Kinda slow, but nice range. Pummel is her giving them the knee at a decent speed.
forward throw -- Just tosses them with her hair.
up throw -- ???
down throw -- ???
back throw -- ???

final smash -- DDR, baby! Like Shantae GBC's dance parlors, press buttons to have coins thrown all over the stage. At the end, they'll all explode, doing massive damage.

I'm not sure if we're supposed to do this one at a tine but too late for me now lol

 

[Shinuto]

If Shantae was 1st party, what would her chances be?

 

[RetroMetalSonic]

If Shantae was 1st party, what would her chances be?

If she was 1st party I'd think that she'd have a pretty good chance. About a 60% chance, maybe? Eh, I don't know, either way, I think her chances would definitely improve if she was one of Nintendo's own characters.

About ideas for Shantae's moveset, I never got around to coming up with ideas for that... Gotta do some research on the older games and/or play Pirate's Curse again for inspiration.

 

[ProtoTwi]

I dunno if you guys have seen smash bros crusade. But their Shantae move set is pretty good looking

 

[conTAgi0n]

If Shantae were first party, she would already be in the game.



I would make Shantae's jab a simple jab combo, and make her forward tilt her hair whip. Making hair whip her ftilt allows her to use the move while standing still or while walking. I think the ftilt input would feel right for a hair whip, but that is subjective. With its range and disjoint though, there is no way hair whip can have the startup or end lag of a typical jab. Its frame data would have to be more in the ballpark of a typical ftilt. Depriving Shantae of a more normal jab would really hurt her close quarters options.

Shinuto using Risky's pistol as her ftilt instead is an interesting idea, but my concern is that - especially with hair whip for a jab, and fireballs or storm puffs in her moveset - it turns Shantae into a dedicated projectile zoner, which I'm not too crazy about. So if we are sticking with your idea to have her hair whip be her jab, what other options are there for her ftilt? An obvious idea would be her kick attack that she has in Pirate's Curse and Half Genie Hero. From a design perspective, I don't like this choice. To save myself (and you) the trouble of an extended digression, I'll just say that it wouldn't "feel" as much like an ftilt as her jab, and depending on how it was balanced, would overlap too much with jab or fsmash in purpose. Another option would be to simply make her ftilt also hair whip, similar to Mega Man. While I like that choice for Mega Man though, I don't really like it for Shantae. It detracts from her versatility, and shrinks the effective moveset of a character that has way too many good options for moves.

Okay, back to considering ftilt as hair whip, and jab as a standard jab combo. To give Shantae's jab combo a little flavor from her games, she would punch, punch, and then perform the kick attack from Pirate's Curse and HGH. It would have unusually good knockback for a jab finisher, and at high percents would be a kill move near the ledge. It could also be her fsmash, but I think there is a much better idea for Shantae's fsmash...

...specifically, her fsmash should be the elbow dash from the original Shantae, as BigShad suggested. It would have very long startup, but exceptional power and travel distance, and low end lag. I disagree about using her twirl attack from her first game as her dash attack though, I think it should be part of her fsmash. If you press A during fsmash, the move cancels immediately into the twirl attack, which flies through the air and also has exceptional power and travel distance, but unlike the elbow dash has very high end lag.


That's probably enough explaining for one post, but since we seem to just be throwing all our ideas out there, I'll briefly run through what I have in mind for the rest of her moves.


Jab - Punch punch kick, the kick being taken from Pirate's Curse / HGH. Described in more detail above.
Ftilt - Hair whip.
Utilt - Hair sweep upwards, kind of like Greninja's or Shulk's utilt. I can't think of anything from her games that would work well for this one.
Dtilt - Hair whip.
Fsmash - Shoulder bash, cancelable by pressing A into twirl attack. Described in more detail above.
Usmash - Spin kick from original Shantae, cancelable by pressing A into drill kick from original Shantae. Exactly what BigShad suggested, in other words. That way all her fighter's gear moves are represented perfectly, and she has some pretty unique smash attacks.
Dsmash - Either a breakdance style leg sweep, maybe kind of like Sonic's dsmash in PM, or she swings a pike ball in a circle on the ground around her. I'd prefer the pike ball become its own item though, rather than a part of Shantae's moveset.
Dash attack - Scimitar charge, as Shinuto suggested. This means that she has to be dashing to perform scimitar charge, just like in her games, which I like. Also she has too many other good choices for B moves to make scimitar charage a B move.
Nair - She extends her limbs and spins in a circle, animation similar to her death animation in the original Shantae.
Fair - Hair whip. Just like dtilt and either jab or ftilt, this absolutely has to be hair whip.
Uair - Risky's hat. Pretty good-sized hitbox, slightly disjointed, low damage and knockback. Hold A to float in one direction or the other, allowing for it to be used as a secondary recovery move.
Dair - Scimitar dive, taken from Pirate's Curse. Similar to Link's and Cloud's dairs, but fairly safe move with pretty low power.
Bair - Spins around, swinging her hair behind her horizontally, like Ike swings his sword in his bair. Good kill move.

neutral B - Storm puff. Only one at a time, it takes a second or two before it starts droppiong its lightning bolt, which can also hit Shantae. Any character can push it back and forth horizontally with a hitbox.

I considered giving her Risky's pistol as a neutral B, but it is a more generic move, and making both neutral B and side B projectile really set Shantae up to be a zoner/keepaway kind of character, where I prefer her to be more of a versatile, bag-o-tricks spacing kind of character.

side B - Triple fireball. Startup and especially end lag make it so that this is not at all an oppressive zoning tool. Kind of like Ryu's Shakunetsu Hadouken, but smaller, a little faster and further traveling, no multi-hit, and there are three of them obviously.
up B - Cannon from Pirate's Curse. Shantae can use it up to three times. Each cannon blast individually doesn't give her much air, but the three combined give her very good vertical recovery. It does not put her into freefall animation. Each cannon shot has high end lag before you can air dodge or use a different move. Pressing A or B before the end lag expires causes Shantae to use her next cannon shot. If you try to do an aerial between each cannon shot, you aren't going to get much if any vertical height, because the of the end lag after each cannon shot.
down B - Transformation dance. Shantae cycles through three dance moves. Release B during a dance move to transform into the corresponding animal form - spider, tinkerbat, or elephant (tinkerbat is negotiable). Like Peach's or Pokémon Trainer's down Bs, Shantae must be grounded to use this move. Details about these animal forms are too much to describe here, plus I did so in a previous post anyway.

grab / pummel - Just a normal grab, and she knees her opponents for her pummel. I do not think she should grab opponents with her hair, I think that would be kind of weird. It has never been prehensile in any of her games.

I don't have any special ideas for her throws. Like most characters, I think she would probably just have some regular ass throws, made up for Smash. Whether she has a combo throw just depends on game balance. I don't really see her as having a kill throw, but it's not impossible.

forward throw
up throw
down throw
back throw

final smash - Hmmm I'm not sure. I can't think of anything better than the gem mini-game, which is actually a pretty cool idea. I'll go with that I guess.

Oh, and one more absolutely critical part of her repertoire I completely forgot about!

Up taunt - She strikes her victory pose from HGH and shouts, "I'm RET-2-GO!"
Side taunt - She flips off the camera and says, "eat your heart out, Shovel Knight!" jk obviously, I don't have any ideas for this one.

EDIT: Shinuto suggested the lamp holding dance from Pirate's Curse, that would be perfect I think.

Down taunt - She enters dance mode from the first game. In dance mode, she can do any of her dance moves from the original Shantae. Shield, grab, or jump inputs cancel dance mode. If she does any of the complete dances from the first game, she does some corresponding taunt. For example, do the monkey dance and she will transform into the monkey and do a taunt as the monkey. Do the dance for Water Town, and Bolo will briefly appear and do a taunt with Shantae. For simplicity's sake, there is no special rhythm you have to hit for the dances to work.

Alternatively, you could leave out the up taunt and side taunt, and just pressing any taunt input puts you into dance mode.

EDIT: ProtoTwi yeah I remember seeing a trailer for her Smash Bros. Crusade moveset and being impressed. I haven't messed around with Crusade myself though, so I don't know her moveset in it very well.

 

[Shinuto]

If Shantae were first party, she would already be in the game.



I would make Shantae's jab a simple jab combo, and make her forward tilt her hair whip. Making hair whip her ftilt allows her to use the move while standing still or while walking. I think the ftilt input would feel right for a hair whip, but that is subjective. With its range and disjoint though, there is no way hair whip can have the startup or end lag of a typical jab. Its frame data would have to be more in the ballpark of a typical ftilt. Depriving Shantae of a more normal jab would really hurt her close quarters options.

Shinuto using Risky's pistol as her ftilt instead is an interesting idea, but my concern is that - especially with hair whip for a jab, and fireballs or storm puffs in her moveset - it turns Shantae into a dedicated projectile zoner, which I'm not too crazy about. So if we are sticking with your idea to have her hair whip be her jab, what other options are there for her ftilt? An obvious idea would be her kick attack that she has in Pirate's Curse and Half Genie Hero. From a design perspective, I don't like this choice. To save myself (and you) the trouble of an extended digression, I'll just say that it wouldn't "feel" as much like an ftilt as her jab, and depending on how it was balanced, would overlap too much with jab or fsmash in purpose. Another option would be to simply make her ftilt also hair whip, similar to Mega Man. While I like that choice for Mega Man though, I don't really like it for Shantae. It detracts from her versatility, and shrinks the effective moveset of a character that has way too many good options for moves.

To give Shantae's jab combo a little flavor from her games, she would punch, punch, and then perform the kick attack from Pirate's Curse and HGH. It would have unusually good knockback for a jab finisher, and at high percents would be a kill move near the ledge. It could also be her fsmash, but I think there is a much better idea for Shantae's fsmash...

...specifically, her fsmash should be the elbow dash from the original Shantae, as BigShad suggested. It would have very long startup, but exceptional power and travel distance, and low end lag. I disagree about using her twirl attack from her first game as her dash attack though, I think it should be part of her fsmash. If you press A during fsmash, the move cancels immediately into the twirl attack, which flies through the air and also has exceptional power and travel distance, but also has very high end lag.


That's probably enough explaining for one post, but since we seem to just be throwing all our ideas out there, I'll briefly run through what I have in mind for the rest of her moves.


Jab - Punch punch kick, the kick being taken from Pirate's Curse / HGH. Described in more detail above.
Ftilt - Hair whip.
Utilt - Hair sweep upwards, kind of like Greninja's or Shulk's utilt. I can't think of anything from her games that would work well for this one.
Dtilt - Hair whip.
Fsmash - Shoulder bash, cancelable by pressing A into twirl attack. Described in more detail above.
Usmash - Spin kick from original Shantae, cancelable by pressing A into drill kick from original Shantae. Exactly what BigShad suggested, in other words. That way all her fighter's gear moves are represented perfectly, and she has some pretty unique smash attacks.
Dsmash - Either a breakdance style leg sweep, maybe kind of like Sonic's dsmash in PM, or she swings a pike ball in a circle on the ground around her. I'd prefer the pike ball become its own item though, rather than a part of Shantae's moveset.
Dash attack - Scimitar charge, as Shinuto suggested.
Nair - She extends her limbs and spins in a circle, animation similar to her death animation in the original Shantae.
Fair - Hair whip. Just like dtilt and either jab or ftilt, this absolutely has to be hair whip.
Uair - Risky's hat. Pretty good-sized hitbox, slightly disjointed, low damage and knockback. Hold A to float in one direction or the other, allowing for it to be used as a secondary recovery move.
Dair - Scimitar dive, taken from Pirate's Curse. Similar to Link's and Cloud's dairs, but fairly safe move with pretty low power.
Bair - Spins around, swinging her hair behind her horizontally, like Ike swings his sword in his bair. Good kill move.

neutral B - Storm puff. Only one at a time, it takes a second or two before it starts droppiong its lightning bolt, which can also hit Shantae. Any character can push it back and forth horizontally with a hitbox.

I considered giving her Risky's pistol as a neutral B, but it is a more generic move, and making both neutral B and side B projectile really set Shantae up to be a zoner/keepaway kind of character, where I prefer her to be more of a versatile, bag-o-tricks spacing kind of character.

side B - Triple fireball. Startup and especially end lag make it so that this is not at all an oppressive zoning tool. Kind of like Ryu's Shakunetsu Hadouken, but smaller, a little faster and further traveling, no multi-hit, and there are three of them obviously.
up B - Cannon from Pirate's Curse. Shantae can use it up to three times. Each cannon blast individually doesn't give her much air, but the three combined give her very good vertical recovery. It does not put her into freefall animation. Each cannon shot has high end lag before you can air dodge or use a different move. Pressing A or B before the end lag expires causes Shantae to use her next cannon shot. If you try to do an aerial between each cannon shot, you aren't going to get much if any vertical height, because the of the end lag after each cannon shot.
down B - Transformation dance. Shantae cycles through three dance moves. Release B during a dance move to transform into the corresponding animal form - spider, tinkerbat, or elephant (tinkerbat is negotiable). Like Peach's or Pokémon Trainer's down Bs, Shantae must be grounded to use this move. Details about these animal forms are too much to describe here, plus I did so in a previous post anyway.

grab / pummel - Just a normal grab, and she knees her opponents for her pummel. I do not think she should grab opponents with her hair, I think that would be kind of weird. It has never been prehensile in any of her games.

I don't have any special ideas for her throws. Like most characters, I think she would probably just have some regular *** throws, made up for Smash. Whether she has a combo throw just depends on game balance. I don't really see her as having a kill throw, but it's not impossible.

forward throw
up throw
down throw
back throw

final smash - Hmmm I'm not sure. I can't think of anything better than the gem mini-game, which is actually a pretty cool idea. I'll go with that I guess.

Oh, and one more absolutely critical part of her repertoire I completely forgot about!

Up taunt - She strikes her victory pose from HGH and shouts, "I'm RET-2-GO!"
Side taunt - She flips off the camera and says, "eat your heart out, Shovel Knight!" jk obviously, I don't have any ideas for this one.
Down taunt - She enters dance mode from the first game. In dance mode, she can do any of her dance moves from the original Shantae. Shield, grab, or jump inputs cancel dance mode. If she does any of the complete dances from the first game, she does some corresponding taunt. For example, do the monkey dance and she will transform into the monkey and do a taunt as the monkey. Do the dance for Water Town, and Bolo will briefly appear and do a taunt with Shantae. For simplicity's sake, there is no special rhythm you have to hit for the dances to work.

Alternatively, you could leave out the up taunt and side taunt, and just pressing any button puts you into dance mode.

EDIT: ProtoTwi yeah I remember seeing a trailer for her Smash Bros. Crusade moveset and being impressed. I haven't messed around with Crusade myself though, so I don't know her moveset in it very well.

Side Taunt is her lamp holding dance from Pirate's Curse.

Also I fully bet with you that Shantae's Jab WILL be her hair whip, and it'll be a great jab.