Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[MoveMan1]

If you consider getting a re-release for the switch "stagnant", then Crash Bandicoot is just as stagnant as Shantae. And I doubt Crash fans would agree with you. (I'm talking about the ultimate edition of Half Genie Hero for the switch.)

 

[Morbi]

If you consider getting a re-release for the switch "stagnant", then Crash Bandicoot is just as stagnant as Shantae. And I doubt Crash fans would agree with you. (I'm talking about the ultimate edition of Half Genie Hero for the switch.)

I meant to say "relative to Shovel Knight". Next time I post here, I am going to be VERY careful what I write, because you people just pick it apart like crazy. My main and only point was that Shovel Knight has done a lot for himself and garnered many more reasons to be included when directly compared with Shantae. If you compare him to Shantae, there is no reason to select her over him outside of, I guess the time spent with Nintendo, according to here. I do not want to burst any bubbles, but that is not objective criteria and means a lot less in the business landscape than seems to be implied here. Her kickstarter having more backers has nothing to do with how notable she is to gaming as a whole. If I asked a random if they have ever played Shovel Knight or Shantae, I am willing to wager literally everything that I own, that the answer is going to be the former.

 

[conTAgi0n]

I am not sure if I put "in relation to Nintendo" or not, I usually do when talking about Shantae. But Shovel Knight was one of the only series granted the honor of a third-party amiibo outside of Monster Hunter, which was a massive success (and beyond that, I never even heard to the amiibo). And that, to me, demonstrates they are moving forward with Nintendo whereas Shantae is same old, same old. Beyond that, Shovel Knight himself as been expanding and making himself more of a gaming/indie icon whereas Shantae is more or less just staying in her lane. I, personally, have heard a LOT more about Shovel Knight since the ballot compared to Shantae.

I do not believe it is "reductive" when pertaining to third-party characters specifically, but that is just my opinion.

I meant it is reductive in the sense that Sakurai and Nintendo most likely consider a lot more factors than that when considering third party characters, rather than just who has made them the most money. Broadly speaking, their overall concern can be better described as, which character will serve their interests best going forward. How much money a character has already made them is only of indirect importance.

What determines which character serves their future interests best is complicated. Which character will generate the most publicity, if they announce that character for Smash? A separate but related question is, which character will generate the most excitement among fans? Would a character detract from the Smash brand, or the artistic integrity of the game? How much would a Smash appearance increase a character's exposure, and will that translate to better sales for Nintendo? For Nintendo's rivals? What kinds of royalty fees would Nintendo have to pay to get a character in the game? How will including that character affect Nintendo's relations with the parent company? With other companies?

Nintendo must consider all those questions, and probably others I haven't thought of, when adding a third party character. Considering how much money some other company has made them is at best a very incomplete picture of the factors that Nintendo has to consider when making that kind of decision.



As for the bit about Shovel Knight, my remarks about his relationship with Nintendo weren't necessarily directed at anything you said. In fact I think I wrote that part of my post before I saw yours.

I do agree that Shovel Knight has been a very successful character, and that he does have uncommonly good ties with Nintendo for an indie character. He has a good chance at making it into Smash. We still don't have anything concrete to base our impression on for statements about which character is rising or stagnating. Even the Shovel Knight amiibo (I actually own one myself lol) was announced during the Smash Ballot, so it isn't indicative of any rising or falling since then. Both Shantae and Shovel Knight have had guest appearances in other indie games, and that is also something that is difficult to read much into.

 

[Shinuto]

I meant to say "relative to Shovel Knight". Next time I post here, I am going to be VERY careful what I write, because you people just pick it apart like crazy. My main and only point was that Shovel Knight has done a lot for himself and garnered many more reasons to be included when directly compared with Shantae. If you compare him to Shantae, there is no reason to select her over him outside of, I guess the time spent with Nintendo, according to here. I do not want to burst any bubbles, but that is not objective criteria and means a lot less in the business landscape than seems to be implied here. Her kickstarter having more backers has nothing to do with how notable she is to gaming as a whole. If I asked a random if they have ever played Shovel Knight or Shantae, I am willing to wager literally everything that I own, that the answer is going to be the former.

to be fair man context is everything.

 

[Morbi]

I meant it is reductive in the sense that Sakurai and Nintendo most likely consider a lot more factors than that when considering third party characters than just who has made them the most money. Broadly speaking, their overall concern can be better described as, which character will serve their interests best going forward. How much money a character has already made them is only of indirect importance.

What determines which character serves their future interests best is complicated. Which character will generate the most publicity, if they announce that character for Smash? A separate but related question is, which character will generate the most excitement among fans? Would a character detract from the Smash brand, or the artistic integrity of the game? How much would a Smash appearance increase a character's exposure, and will that translate to better sales for Nintendo? For Nintendo's rivals? What kinds of royalty fees would Nintendo have to pay to get a character in the game? How will including that character affect Nintendo's relations with the parent company? With other companies?

Nintendo must consider all those questions, and probably others I haven't thought of, when adding a third party character. Considering how much money some other company has made them is at best a very incomplete picture of the factors that Nintendo has to consider when making that kind of decision.



As for the bit about Shovel Knight, my remarks about his relationship with Nintendo weren't necessarily directed at anything you said. In fact I think I wrote that part of my post before I saw yours.

I do agree that Shovel Knight has been a very successful character, and that he does have uncommonly good ties with Nintendo for an indie character. He has a good chance at making it into Smash. We still don't have anything concrete to base our impression on for statements about which character is rising or stagnating. Even the Shovel Knight amiibo (I actually own one myself lol) was announced during the Smash Ballot, so it isn't indicative of any rising or falling since then. Both Shantae and Shovel Knight have had guest appearances in other indie games, and that is also something that is difficult to read much into.

If Nintendo was willing to "adopt" Shantae in the same vein as Bayonetta, I could absolutely see that factoring into their decision. I understand that it is not black and white; however, certain factors weigh more heavily than others and I do not believe it is overly crazy to just assert that monetary interest is the main factor.

There is actually another set coming out. It has Plague Knight, King Knight, and Specter Knight, I believe, I never played the game myself, but it is coming at the end of the year. Pretty convenient timing, I might add.

to be fair man context is everything.

Absolutely. I just figured my overall point was clear enough. This is a first for me, honestly.

 

[Shinuto]

If Nintendo was willing to "adopt" Shantae in the same vein as Bayonetta, I could absolutely see that factoring into their decision. I understand that it is not black and white; however, certain factors weigh more heavily than others and I do not believe it is overly crazy to just assert that monetary interest is the main factor.

There is actually another set coming out. It has Plague Knight, King Knight, and Specter Knight, I believe, I never played the game myself, but it is coming at the end of the year. Pretty convenient timing, I might add.


Absolutely. I just figured my overall point was clear enough. This is a first for me, honestly.

I just personally think that a character to get into smash especially as a third party needs...more time to stand as a character, People were saying SK was likely over other indie during the Smash Ballot despite being ONE YEAR old I just think its ridiculous to say he desrves to be in SMASH....with ONE game and one year ( at the time) under his belt

Now the only difference is 3 total expansions, 4 amiibo and .....thats it, no sign of a new game, no other work that YCG has done outside of Publishing Azure Striker Gunvolt: Striker Pack another indie series. nothing on why the amiibos got made if Nintendo wanted it or YCG asked it from Nintendo and made a deal for them.

I just don't think Shovel Knight or Yacht Club Games deserves representation of being playable in Super Smash Bros. with such little history and honestly a small portfolio of work.

 

[Morbi]

I just personally think that a character to get into smash especially as a third party needs...more time to stand as a character, People were saying SK was likely over other indie during the Smash Ballot despite being ONE YEAR old I just think its ridiculous to say he desrves to be in SMASH....with ONE game and one year ( at the time) under his belt

Now the only difference is 3 total expansions, 4 amiibo and .....thats it, no sign of a new game, no other work that YCG has done outside of Publishing Azure Striker Gunvolt: Striker Pack another indie series. nothing on why the amiibos got made if Nintendo wanted it or YCG asked it from Nintendo and made a deal for them.

I just don't think Shovel Knight or Yacht Club Games deserves representation of being playable in Super Smash Bros. with such little history and honestly a small portfolio of work.

To be fair, and this is all just speculation, but they might have another game that is Switch exclusive. You never know, really. Beyond that, however, that was sort of my point. He was very young at the time, he still is, but undeniably, he has become a more practical choice which was always something that Shantae had in her favor. His merit has only increased and she can still make the same case she could prior.

I do not really believe they deserve it either. Shantae is absolutely more deserving; however, as I stated above, I believe the monetary aspect of the conversation is going to be the most relevant to their decision, realistically.

 

[Shinuto]

To be fair, and this is all just speculation, but they might have another game that is Switch exclusive. You never know, really. Beyond that, however, that was sort of my point. He was very young at the time, he still is, but undeniably, he has become a more practical choice which was always something that Shantae had in her favor. His merit has only increased and she can still make the same case she could prior.

I do not really believe they deserve it either. Shantae is absolutely more deserving; however, as I stated above, I believe the monetary aspect of the conversation is going to be the most relevant to their decision, realistically.

I can agree on that.

I guess Im being dumb by trying to get people to look at both of them more logically since people just seem to focus SO MUCH on " HE HAS AN AMIIBO HIS GAME WAS PUBLISHED BY NINTENDO IN JAPAN" an granted those are good things, but a lot of people look at that and say yep that makes him like a billion times more deserving, forget everything else about him...he has an amiibo so thats that.

Im perfectly aware I focus way too much on all this lol.

 

[conTAgi0n]

If Nintendo was willing to "adopt" Shantae in the same vein as Bayonetta, I could absolutely see that factoring into their decision. I understand that it is not black and white; however, certain factors weigh more heavily than others and I do not believe it is overly crazy to just assert that monetary interest is the main factor.

There is actually another set coming out. It has Plague Knight, King Knight, and Specter Knight, I believe, I never played the game myself, but it is coming at the end of the year. Pretty convenient timing, I might add.


Absolutely. I just figured my overall point was clear enough. This is a first for me, honestly.

I wouldn't say it's crazy at all. Increasing future earnings is the fundamental motivation for every decision that a company makes. Lots of business decisions involve imporant tradeoffs that can't be easily quantified in monetary terms though. Adding a third party character to Smash involves a lot of those. There is also a human element to these decisions too - it is well known that Sakurai added Snake to Brawl first and foremost as a personal favor to his friend Kojima, for example.

And yeah, I could imagine Nintendo seeing potential in the Shantae series and arranging some kind of exclusivity deal and involvement with development for a future Shantae title. Nintendo might also figure that Shantae has more room to grow from the exposure of a Smash appearance, plus she has four different Shantae titles available on Nintendo consoles, one of which is Nintendo exclusive. Therefore giving her a Smash appearance may boost sales on Nintendo consoles much more than Shovel Knight would, since his saturation is already much higher, and he only has one game.

We just have so little insight into the process that just about anything is possible. Plus the fact that our evidence is so limited and subjective about which characters are rising or falling, whether that even matters, whether Sakurai is using Smash Ballot data, how Nintendo weighs a character's exposure in Japan vs. in the West... I think it's really hard to make any meaningful evaluation of whether Shantae or Shovel Knight stand a better chance.

By the way, I hope you don't feel attacked or anything, I think these discussions are fun to have. I also respect that you came in here and shared your opinion politely with a crowd you must have known would be inclined to see things a little differently.

 

[Shinuto]

I wouldn't say it's crazy at all. Increasing future earnings is the fundamental motivation for every decision that a company makes. Lots of business decisions involve imporant tradeoffs that can't be easily quantified in monetary terms though. Adding a third party character to Smash involves a lot of those. There is also a human element to these decisions too - it is well known that Sakurai added Snake to Brawl first and foremost as a personal favor to his friend Kojima, for example.

And yeah, I could imagine Nintendo seeing potential in the Shantae series and arranging some kind of exclusivity deal and involvement with development for a future Shantae title. Nintendo might also figure that Shantae has more room to grow from the exposure of a Smash appearance, plus she has four different Shantae titles available on Nintendo consoles, one of which is Nintendo exclusive. Therefore giving her a Smash appearance may boost sales on Nintendo consoles much more than Shovel Knight would, since his saturation is already much higher, and he only has one game.

We just have so little insight into the process that just about anything is possible. Plus the fact that our evidence is so limited and subjective about which characters are rising or falling, whether that even matters, whether Sakurai is using Smash Ballot data, how Nintendo weighs a character's exposure in Japan vs. in the West... I think it's really hard to make any meaningful evaluation of whether Shantae or Shovel Knight stand a better chance.

By the way, I hope you don't feel attacked or anything, I think these discussions are fun to have. I also respect that you came in here and shared your opinion politely with a crowd you must have known would be inclined to see things a little differently.

We'll all just have to wait till E3 to see what happens not just in Smash but if perhaps Shantae and SK might get some mention of a brand new game announced maybe during E3.

 

[Deleted member]

Im tired

We'll all just have to wait till E3 to see what happens not just in Smash but if perhaps Shantae and SK might get some mention of a brand new game announced maybe during E3.

Shovel Knight is probably gonna show off Shovel Knight "King of Cards" at E3.

Do we know what Wayforward is working on? last game to come out of them was Mummy Demastered. Have they announced anything?

 

[Shinuto]

Im tired

Shovel Knight is probably gonna show off Shovel Knight "King of Cards" at E3.

Do we know what Wayforward is working on? last game to come out of them was Mummy Demastered. Have they announced anything?

considering nothing so far, Id venture to say they are waiting for E3 if anything.

 

[MoveMan1]

Well, they're re-releasing Half Genie Hero for switch, and they already re-released Pirates Curse for the switch. If the N Sane trilogy can justify Crash, those two can justify Shantae.

 

[RetroMetalSonic]

Here to give some support to the Half-Genie Hero! It'd be great if Shantae made it into Super Smash Bros. (Plus Smash could use some more female protagonists.)

 

[Shinuto]

Here to give some support to the Half-Genie Hero! It'd be great if Shantae made it into Super Smash Bros. (Plus Smash could use some more female protagonists.)

What do you think her chances are?

Man today's RTC went eehh for Shantae.

 

[BigShad]

Oof, looks like our half-genie didn't do too well in the RTC... though I think it was better than last time? I guess it's not that big of a surprise though, Shantae's games are kinda few, and when she's pit against the population, there's always gonna be quite a bit of hurdles to jump over when compared to the other choices out there. That being said, I'm still keepin' the dream of her being in. We never know what's going on in Massivehero Samurai's head.

 

[Shinuto]

Oof, looks like our half-genie didn't do too well in the RTC... though I think it was better than last time? I guess it's not that big of a surprise though, Shantae's games are kinda few, and when she's pit against the population, there's always gonna be quite a bit of hurdles to jump over when compared to the other choices out there. That being said, I'm still keepin' the dream of her being in. We never know what's going on in Massivehero Samurai's head.

just watch ShovelKnight's gonna overall have a chance percentage of 60%
Im so salty lol.

 

[BigShad]

just watch ShovelKnight's gonna overall have a chance percentage of 60%
Im so salty lol.

I ain't gonna complain about SK at all really, I like the guy... but I find it weird how everyone pits him up against Shantae. That's like pitting up an old but semi-reliable truck you know and love against some fancy new car from some weird company. Of course, any of my cases against SK will mirror what everyone else has already said, but the dude has like zero Nintendo loyalty and is still a youngun lol.
If anything, I feel like a worthy foe for Shantae, as I said in the RTC thread, would be Quote/Curly from Cave Story. Now those bots have some staying power.

 

[Shinuto]

I ain't gonna complain about SK at all really, I like the guy... but I find it weird how everyone pits him up against Shantae. That's like pitting up an old but semi-reliable truck you know and love against some fancy new car from some weird company. Of course, any of my cases against SK will mirror what everyone else has already said, but the dude has like zero Nintendo loyalty and is still a youngun lol.
If anything, I feel like a worthy foe for Shantae, as I said in the RTC thread, would be Quote/Curly from Cave Story. Now those bots have some staying power.

It has been argued Nintendo Loyalty doesn't matter or isn't an actual argument in terms of third parties?

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

Oof, looks like our half-genie didn't do too well in the RTC... though I think it was better than last time? I guess it's not that big of a surprise though, Shantae's games are kinda few, and when she's pit against the population, there's always gonna be quite a bit of hurdles to jump over when compared to the other choices out there. That being said, I'm still keepin' the dream of her being in. We never know what's going on in Massivehero Samurai's head.

She did better than I expected, to be honest. ~15% chance is definitely higher than I would have guessed, and ~44% want is reasonable. Her ranking overall isn't great right now, but that's because the most popular characters are the ones up to bat first.

 

[Shinuto]

She did better than I expected, to be honest. ~15% chance is definitely higher than I would have guessed, and ~44% want is reasonable. Her ranking overall isn't great right now, but that's because the most popular characters are the ones up to bat first.

What did you expect?

I think the chance is reasonable enough, I kinda expected the want to be higher. sigh

 

[BigShad]

It has been argued Nintendo Loyalty doesn't matter or isn't an actual argument in terms of third parties?

You're right there, I think... Cloud did get in, after all, but I think that's because his series is super old and super popular. And in the case of Bayonetta, I think that's a huuuge case of luck with being adopted by Nintendo and her popularity at the time (and her easily-imported model, as covered in one of RelaxAlex's videos). Of course I say "I think" because Sakurai's got his own way of thinking.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

What did you expect?

I think the chance is reasonable enough, I kinda expected the want to be higher. sigh

I'm saying this after the fact since I didn't actually make a prediction, but I think I would have expected an average of ~10% chance. I don't know what I would have expected for want.

 

[Shinuto]

s

I'm saying this after the fact since I didn't actually make a prediction, but I think I would have expected an average of ~10% chance. I don't know what I would have expected for want.

so how many nominations on that thread does a character need to begin being rated?

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

s

so how many nominations on that thread does a character need to begin being rated?

I honestly do not know how that works.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

If you want to re nominate Shantae there is a two week cooldown period for nominating the character. Just letting you know.

Nominations matter once we are off the fixed schedule, in which we go down from most nominated down the list.

 

[Shinuto]

If you want to re nominate Shantae there is a two week cooldown period for nominating the character. Just letting you know.

Nominations matter once we are off the fixed schedule, in which we go down from most nominated down the list.

Wait why is re nominating a thing? I mean as that ever happnend and the results were different enough to matter?

 

[Deleted member]

Well we survived the day only being a lil discouraged/salty. We Already knew her chances were low if she has to compete with Nintendo's own characters. I believe she still is a top contender in the indie scene.

Plus I had a laugh at the "Mega man isn't loyal to Nintendo comment."

 

[Shinuto]

Well we survived the day only being a lil discouraged/salty. We Already knew her chances were low if she has to compete with Nintendo's own characters. I believe she still is a top contender in the indie scene.

Plus I had a laugh at the "Mega man isn't loyal to Nintendo comment."

what page is it on? sounds funny.

 

[WingedSupernova]

I'm here to rep my #1 most wanted character.

 

[Shinuto]

I'm here to rep my #1 most wanted character.

You......big jerk! Where were you when needed you most during the The rate this character thread today about Shantae?!

You had to join today not like..YESTERDAY!? Hmmph, well guess we know you don't care about her!

Shantae FOR SMASH!

Nice to see a new face who supports our favorite half genie.

 

[conTAgi0n]

I looked over the RTC thread and it went pretty much exactly as I was expecting. I honestly would not take it too seriously guys. The Smash speculation community here is kind of echo chamber-y, and the Smash Ballot mentality of talking up the characters you like and talking down the ones you don't still persists here. I don't really want to write an extended post criticizing another thread on here, so I'll just leave it at that. I hope they have fun in that thread, but I really would not put any weight on whatever consensus they reach, for any of the characters.

Since I'm procrastinating again, as usual, I want to take a moment to discuss what I mean by the Smash Ballot mentality, and why it's important.

The Smash Ballot mentality

By the "Smash Ballot mentality", I mean the mindset that by arguing for or against a character's chances, you can actually affect that character's chances in the Smash Ballot, even if only slightly.

That is actually correct, at least in theory. A character's perceived likelihood affects their level of support, which in turn affects their actual likelihood (at least if the Smash Ballot really mattered). Nobody wants to get their hopes up and waste their time advocating for a lost cause. Conversely, people are more likely to take an interest in a character they perceive as already being popular and having lots of support.

So it really is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a consensus emerges that some character has no chance, whether rightly or wrongly, supporters of that character will get discouraged, people in general will become less interested, and that character's support will drop.

Whether consciously or unconsciously, most of the partisans online picked up on this truth during the Smash Ballot. And most people who cared enough to spend their time discussing the Smash Ballot online were partisans for one or more characters.

The result of this was that online discussions during the Smash Ballot devolved into propaganda wars. People played up the chances of characters they wanted, and in many cases also did their best to tear down those characters they didn't want, or which they felt were competition to their preferred choices. Hence the funny phenomenon that as Shantae became more popular over the course of the Smash Ballot, comments dismissing her chances increased dramatically. People began to register her as a threat, and so were anxious to let everyone know why she was a waste of time and had no chance.

That is why I myself became something of a one-man propaganda machine during the Smash Ballot. When I saw comments dismissing Shantae as a pipe dream, I couldn't help but wonder how many people on the fence about Shantae, or who had never heard of Shantae, were also reading that comment, and having their opinion shaped by it. I wanted to make sure that the very next thing they saw after that negative comment was thoughtful, well-reasoned disagreement. So, I went out of my way to provide it myself.

For that same reason, I also posted a lot in the Shantae support thread here, trying to keep people's optimism up. Having confident and optimistic supporters definitely makes for a more effective campaign.


What does all of this have to do with anything? Well, hopefully it highlights that simply not giving up hope for Shantae is in a small way its own contribution to the cause.

Also, I think the propaganda wars of the Smash Ballot still affect how people think about potential newcomers. People still tend to rate characters they want as more probable, and characters they don't as less probable. You also still see dismissive comments stated with authority, that are very vague and ungrounded when you stop to think about them. My favorite one currently is that Shantae supporters are actually just a "vocal minority". How do people know that? Well, it just feels like it. Finally, you still see people speculate about the chances of various characters with a lot more confidence and precision than could possibly be justified with how little we know. I suppose all of this could be written off as more human nature than anything, but I still contend that at least part of it is a legacy from the Smash Ballot.

Mind you, the roster for Smash on Switch is most likely already finalized, and I don't expect another ballot, so really none of this matters anymore. Maybe I'm just reminiscing about all that time and energy I wasted arguing about videogame characters back during the heady days of the Smash Ballot. Oh well...

 

[Shinuto]

I looked over the RTC thread and it went pretty much exactly as I was expecting. I honestly would not take it too seriously guys. The Smash speculation community here is kind of echo chamber-y, and the Smash Ballot mentality of talking up the characters you like and talking down the ones you don't still persists here. I don't really want to write an extended post criticizing another thread on here, so I'll just leave it at that. I hope they have fun in that thread, but I really would not put any weight on whatever consensus they reach, for any of the characters.

Since I'm procrastinating again, as usual, I want to take a moment to discuss what I mean by the Smash Ballot mentality, and why it's important.

The Smash Ballot mentality

By the "Smash Ballot mentality", I mean the mindset that by arguing for or against a character's chances, you can actually affect that character's chances in the Smash Ballot, even if only slightly.

That is actually correct, at least in theory. A character's perceived likelihood affects their level of support, which in turn affects their actual likelihood (at least if the Smash Ballot really mattered). Nobody wants to get their hopes up and waste their time advocating for a lost cause. Conversely, people are more likely to take an interest in a character they perceive as already being popular and having lots of support.

So it really is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If a consensus emerges that some character has no chance, whether rightly or wrongly, supporters of that character will get discouraged, people in general will become less interested, and that character's support will drop.

Whether consciously or unconsciously, most of the partisans online picked up on this truth during the Smash Ballot. And most people who cared enough to spend their time discussing the Smash Ballot online were partisans for one or more characters.

The result of this was that online discussions during the Smash Ballot devolved into propaganda wars. People played up the chances of characters they wanted, and in many cases also did their best to tear down those characters they didn't want, or which they felt were competition to their preferred choices. Hence the funny phenomenon that as Shantae became more popular over the course of the Smash Ballot, comments dismissing her chances increased dramatically. People began to register her as a threat, and so were anxious to let everyone know why she was a waste of time and had no chance.

That is why I myself became something of a one-man propaganda machine during the Smash Ballot. When I saw comments dismissing Shantae as a pipe dream, I couldn't help but wonder how many people on the fence about Shantae, or who had never heard of Shantae, were also reading that comment, and having their opinion shaped by it. I wanted to make sure that the very next thing they saw after that negative comment was thoughtful, well-reasoned disagreement. So, I went out of my way to provide it myself.

For that same reason, I also posted a lot in the Shantae support thread here, trying to keep people's optimism up. Having confident and optimistic supporters definitely makes for a more effective campaign.


What does all of this have to do with anything? Well, hopefully it highlights that simply not giving up hope for Shantae is in a small way its own contribution to the cause.

Also, I think the propaganda wars of the Smash Ballot still affect how people think about potential newcomers. People still tend to rate characters they want as more probable, and characters they don't as less probable. You also still see dismissive comments stated with authority, that are very vague and ungrounded when you stop to think about them. My favorite one currently is that Shantae supporters are actually just a "vocal minority". How do people know that? Well, it just feels like it. Finally, you still see people speculate about the chances of various characters with a lot more confidence and precision than could possibly be justified with how little we know. I suppose all of this could be written off as more human nature than anything, but I still contend that at least part of it is a legacy from the Smash Ballot.

Mind you, the roster for Smash on Switch is most likely already finalized, and I don't expect another ballot, so really none of this matters anymore. Maybe I'm just reminiscing about all that time and energy I wasted arguing about videogame characters back during the heady days of the Smash Ballot. Oh well...

This support thread doesn't deserve someone as smart and level headed as you ConTAgI0n

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Wait why is re nominating a thing? I mean as that ever happnend and the results were different enough to matter?

Renominations have changed scores greatly, be it after leaks or new games or a Desire by fans. For example, if day we rated Zoroark in ssb4, but then gen 6 is announced, he might drop. Or say a new dkc is announced at e3 and k Rool is in it, he could go up. Or say you feel that you could mobilize support better, sometimes popular characters get multiple re rates due to boredom or internet in opinion.

 

[Deleted member]

what page is it on? sounds funny.

It was the last really long post. He's complaining that the 3rd party reps were never completely loyal to Nintendo. The mega man excuse was mega man was on Sony for a bit.
Boy if I wasn't working I was gonna rip him a new one that.

 

[BigShad]

(snip)

I always thought that any media was good media for her, since it shows that she still exists (after all, why would anyone be debating her so heavily and there be so many posts against her if she didn't?) but you do have a point. I think people in this side of the community are a tad more "gullible," (saying it a tad rudely because I dunno any other word) when it comes to seeing bad media for her. There's that chance a lotta uninformed people could see "bah this character is bad and won't get in at all" and actually believe it without doing their research, and then that just gives a bad mentality for the character.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

It was the last really long post. He's complaining that the 3rd party reps were never completely loyal to Nintendo. The mega man excuse was mega man was on Sony for a bit.
Boy if I wasn't working I was gonna rip him a new one that.

Maybe you don’t remember but the franchise essentially jumped ship from being a huge Nintendo franchise in the 5th and 6th generation of consoles aside from handhelds, where there was no realistic competition to the game boy. Claiming Megaman is entirely loyal to Nintendo is just flat out wrong. Besides Nintendo loyalty doesn’t mean anything to third parties anyway. Only popularity matters and importance to gaming history. Out of our current third parties, none can be said to be in due to Nintendo loyalty. Bayo is in due to ballot. Snake Cloud and Ryu due to gaming importance. Sonic due to rivalry. Megaman and PacMan were in there for being gaming icons. Clinging to some idea of Nintendo loyalty is like me saying Travis Touchdown should be likely over other characters due to being primarily on Nintendo systems. The best arguement for Shantae is popularity, which is the only reason that I did not rate her lower. Shantae seems more popular then she is due to how dedicated her fans are.

 

[MoveMan1]

Maybe you don’t remember but the franchise essentially jumped ship from being a huge Nintendo franchise in the 5th and 6th generation of consoles aside from handhelds, where there was no realistic competition to the game boy. Claiming Megaman is entirely loyal to Nintendo is just flat out wrong. Besides Nintendo loyalty doesn’t mean anything to third parties anyway. Only popularity matters and importance to gaming history. Out of our current third parties, none can be said to be in due to Nintendo loyalty. Bayo is in due to ballot. Snake Cloud and Ryu due to gaming importance. Sonic due to rivalry. Megaman and PacMan were in there for being gaming icons. Clinging to some idea of Nintendo loyalty is like me saying Travis Touchdown should be likely over other characters due to being primarily on Nintendo systems. The best arguement for Shantae is popularity, which is the only reason that I did not rate her lower. Shantae seems more popular then she is due to how dedicated her fans are.

That is complete bull****. Shantae best argument is that her moveset would be far more unique than anything else the completion has, due to her use of magic and transformations, and movesets are the stuff that catches Sakurai's attention. Popularity (or even sales) has NEVER been that big a deal in Smash, otherwise the Ice Climbers would have never be with us now.

And as for the impact, the only reason Shovel Knight has been showing up in other games and getting Amiibos is because Yacht CLub desperately need money for all the DLC they promised. The cameos only came about because they repeatedly sell his cameos to other devs for appearance money, and the amiibos came because they freaking asked when no-one else did, not because Nintendo personally wanted them to be their best friends. And if you're more famous for your cameos than your actual game, then you have basically become the Battletoads. And if sale determined who got in, Shovel Knight will be tossed to the wayside by freaking Minecraft, or even Undertale.

Look, Shovel Knight is a great game, and he definitely deserves second place in the run for the "indie slot". but don't delude yourself into thinking a game with three dlc packs has a chance with a series with four games to it's name, especially when the latest dlc packs don't really feature Shovel Knight at all. Plauge Knight, King Knight and Specter Knight has more screen time than him in his own game, thanks to the DLC. That's pretty embarrassing, and we don't even know if they'll be a Shovel Knight 2 in the next decade. Shantae, on the other hand, has far better chances of a future beyond DLC. If you genuinely think "nostalgia" is all that's needed to get a slot, then there's plenty of indie games that can offer that, too. Shantae offers more. Deal with it.

 

[RetroMetalSonic]

What do you think her chances are?

Man today's RTC went eehh for Shantae.

What do I think her chances are? Well...I think it's about...I don't know...45%? She has a couple of things to her advantage, like having a bit of a history with Nintendo (With her first game being a Nintendo exclusive.) and having good moveset potential, but she has some tough competition when it comes to the 3rd Party category... I still really want her in, though. I'm hoping that she had enough votes in the ballot to get Sakurai's attention.

 

[Deleted member]

ConTAGI0n is right. Shantae's popularity pretty much Skyrocketed after Matt's "See you in smash" tweet.

Maybe you don’t remember but the franchise essentially jumped ship from being a huge Nintendo franchise in the 5th and 6th generation of consoles aside from handhelds, where there was no realistic competition to the game boy. Claiming Megaman is entirely loyal to Nintendo is just flat out wrong. Besides Nintendo loyalty doesn’t mean anything to third parties anyway.

Non of the 3rd party reps were 100% loyal I'll give you that. But you gotta realises there are only a handful of mega man games didn't launch on Nintendo consoles. So Mega is pretty dam loyally to the house of Mario.
Only a few titles have never made it too a Nintendo console.
Sure X4-8. Legends 2, miss adventures of Tron bon, classic 8, the 2 pro games, and I'll even put the obscure games like Battle and chase, the power fighters 1 and 2, and the wonderswan games to really pad the numbers for you, didn't launch on a Nintendo system. However you forget that Mega Man gets ported alot. Over the years most of these titles Have made it too Nintendo in collections/rerelease.

As of today the only titles on this list not playable on a Nintendo console are.
Legends 2, tron bonn. X7, X8, mega man 8. And the wonder swan game's and Xover. And Dr Wily revenge. Edit. forgot the 2 psp games.

But we have a crap load of Classic and X games on the way for switch. So X7 and X8 along with classic 8 are gonna be playable on switch

Not too mention the 4 sub series that to this day are still EXCLUSIVE to Nintendo. (Battle network, Star force, Zero, and ZX.)

That leaves 5 games.. And a handful of really obscure titles. But yeah totally not loyal.