Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[Parallel_Falchion]

Okay Connor and other shantae fans. A few of my pals said this over on the Isaac thread when I asked them about shantaes chances. It’s be nice if any of you would let me know what your take is on these opinions.

I do agree that we shouldn't be expecting her to be playable. I still think people need to stop comparing her to Shovel Knight, though. They're completely different characters from different companies. Saying Shantae won't be in because Shovel Knight is an assist trophy would be like saying Geno can't get in because Bomberman is an assist trophy. It doesn't make sense.

People also harp on sales a lot, but I don't think the raw numbers are all that people should look at. Did Shantae's first game sell poorly? Yeah. But consider this: we remember it today. It goes for crazy amounts of money if you try to buy a cartridge. I don't think sales matter unless it's to a massive degree, like Duck Hunt and Wii Fit. Any less than that and I think popularity and legacy matter more than raw sales numbers, else we wouldn't have two Earthbound characters in.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I personally don't agree with really any of them. While many of us do understand Shantae's shortcomings, I still think it isnt wrong to be hopeful.

Also...really, really unpopular opinion... Im not sure it was the greatest idea to post negativity. While I understand you wanted genuine opinions, and that is perfectly fine...it feels kind of weird and kills any sort of mood to have it posted. I know a lot of people dont feel she's that likely, but what they are saying isn't really anything we haven't already seen.

As one of the posters cited in this thread, I think dissenting voices can be helpful to discussion. I really do like Shantae, I just don’t think her chances are all that great. She still has a chance mind you, and I wish you all the best of luck, but I don’t personally believe it’s a particularly high one.

 

[TOY the Gamer]

Okay Connor and other shantae fans. A few of my pals said this over on the Isaac thread when I asked them about shantaes chances. It’s be nice if any of you would let me know what your take is on these opinions.

These are solid counter-arguments. I do think she has a chance still, but I don't quite agree with WayForward being silent just because they lost the Ballot. I say that because the Wii U and 3DS versions HAD to be on parity with one another, and since the 3DS couldn't handle transforming characters, that's why she wasn't picked.

I do believe she's going to be in Ultimate. I'd LOVE to see her make it as a Fighter, but an Assist is looking more and more likely as we inch closer to the launch of the game.

 

[WingedSupernova]

Lol

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I've made that comparison myself actually lol. It was funny seeing how similar they look.

 

[Wwlink55]

As one of the posters cited in this thread, I think dissenting voices can be helpful to discussion. I really do like Shantae, I just don’t think her chances are all that great. She still has a chance mind you, and I wish you all the best of luck, but I don’t personally believe it’s a particularly high one.

I do agree that we shouldn't be expecting her to be playable. I still think people need to stop comparing her to Shovel Knight, though. They're completely different characters from different companies. Saying Shantae won't be in because Shovel Knight is an assist trophy would be like saying Geno can't get in because Bomberman is an assist trophy. It doesn't make sense.

People also harp on sales a lot, but I don't think the raw numbers are all that people should look at. Did Shantae's first game sell poorly? Yeah. But consider this: we remember it today. It goes for crazy amounts of money if you try to buy a cartridge. I don't think sales matter unless it's to a massive degree, like Duck Hunt and Wii Fit. Any less than that and I think popularity and legacy matter more than raw sales numbers, else we wouldn't have two Earthbound characters in.

Oh, im not saying it isn't important to have dissenting voices, or remembering to acknowledge shortcomings. Its just that it, even if it was unintentional, feels like simple negativity. Im not saying that was the intention, but considering many of us already know about the shortcomings and have almost every reason under the book why she may be unlikely, it is sort of "rubbing salt in the wound" before anything happens.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I do agree that we shouldn't be expecting her to be playable. I still think people need to stop comparing her to Shovel Knight, though. They're completely different characters from different companies. Saying Shantae won't be in because Shovel Knight is an assist trophy would be like saying Geno can't get in because Bomberman is an assist trophy. It doesn't make sense.

People also harp on sales a lot, but I don't think the raw numbers are all that people should look at. Did Shantae's first game sell poorly? Yeah. But consider this: we remember it today. It goes for crazy amounts of money if you try to buy a cartridge. I don't think sales matter unless it's to a massive degree, like Duck Hunt and Wii Fit. Any less than that and I think popularity and legacy matter more than raw sales numbers, else we wouldn't have two Earthbound characters in.

I think that’s probably a little disingenuous to say of indie reps in comparison to one another. I wouldn’t possibly expect there to be more than one space for an indie rep, so they would inherently have some relation. I think most people would agree here that Shovel Knight being in the game at all is a positive idea towards Shantae’s potential inclusion, and that’s most certainly a relationship between the two as opening the door further for indies in Smash.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

Hey, Connor? Listen to this!

Noticed him when browsing that thread. Yeah, he clearly doesn't belong there.

I wonder who he's referring to, eh?

 

[Deleted member]

Okay Connor and other shantae fans. A few of my pals said this over on the Isaac thread when I asked them about shantaes chances. It’s be nice if any of you would let me know what your take is on these opinions.

They are at least largely respectful with their arguments. I could very easily debate most of their claims.

But it not really their fault. They are focused on Issac and not Shantae. So they may not know the smaller details of Shantae's case.

 

[Deleted member]

KoopaSaki

Steve gets to be the indie rep and shantae as an assist?

Switch their names and we’re good also Minecraft isn't considered indie anymore so we’re all good

I know people have their own opinions but that doesn’t mean theirs come true just have fun with Isaac shantae geno and BANJO & KAZOOIE!
We still have 2 months left till release so just sit back relax and be ready for what’s coming!

Also I’ve got to admit to all of you those Steve models really are scary as f***!

Btw do you guys like this picture?

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

I think that’s probably a little disingenuous to say of indie reps in comparison to one another. I wouldn’t possibly expect there to be more than one space for an indie rep, so they would inherently have some relation. I think most people would agree here that Shovel Knight being in the game at all is a positive idea towards Shantae’s potential inclusion, and that’s most certainly a relationship between the two as opening the door further for indies in Smash.

Why, though? How do we know Sakurai will see them specifically as "indie characters" and only be willing to pick one or the other (or neither)? We once thought we couldn't get two 3rd party characters from the same company, or two characters from the same 3rd party series, but those "rules" both broke. We thought 3rd parties had to be super special popular mega-sellers but Bayonetta got in.

Some of the "rules" the fanbase has had over the years were at least based on things Sakurai said, but this doesn't even have that. It's pure speculation.

 

[EarlTamm]

I think that’s probably a little disingenuous to say of indie reps in comparison to one another. I wouldn’t possibly expect there to be more than one space for an indie rep, so they would inherently have some relation. I think most people would agree here that Shovel Knight being in the game at all is a positive idea towards Shantae’s potential inclusion, and that’s most certainly a relationship between the two as opening the door further for indies in Smash.

It was Shovel Knight's status as an assist that gave us our original spark of hope. And let's not forget people, there is a relation between the two. Yaghtclub's founders are made up of former Wayforward employees and, if anything, that helps us! Shantae is pretty much the meta Mother to another indie icon!

 

[Wwlink55]

They are at least largely respectful with their arguments. I could very easily debate most of their claims.

But it not really their fault. They are focused on Issac and not Shantae. So they may not know the smaller details of Shantae's case.

Oh, they are definitely respectful, but I would say its sort of unintentionally rude to really post it. Right now, I think all the newcomer groups are feeling really anxious, especially since news is so close yet so far, and I feel the last thing thats needed is for people to start abandoning ship. Smash Speculation is the most enjoyable with people, even if you are wrong.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey, Connor? Listen to this!

I wonder who he's referring to, eh?

FINE IF YOU DONT WANT ME HERE HAVE IT YOUR WAY!

I’m leaving

Good bye

 

[Dyllybirdy]

FINE IF YOU DONT WANT ME HERE HAVE IT YOUR WAY!

I’m leaving

Good bye

Success.

Now, where were we, guys?
Also, sorry.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Why, though? How do we know Sakurai will see them specifically as "indie characters" and only be willing to pick one or the other (or neither)? We once thought we couldn't get two 3rd party characters from the same company, or two characters from the same 3rd party series, but those "rules" both broke. We thought 3rd parties had to be super special popular mega-sellers but Bayonetta got in.

Some of the "rules" the fanbase has had over the rules were at least based on things Sakurai said, but this doesn't even have that. It's pure speculation.

Yeah, it’s speculation. But it’s grounded in Sakurai’s comments on third parties which requires them to be of particular noteworthiness for inclusion. Indies would break his rules in that way for third party inclusions, so he’s likely not going to go super out of the way for more than one when one can represent indie gaming as a whole through inclusion. Especially when there would likely be a substantial backlash to multiple indie newcomers in a game with already limited newcomers.

Plus again, Shovel Knight is the highest status indie character we’ve ever seen. He demonstrates that, hey, Sakurai is at least willing to take indie characters seriously enough for AT status, which is better than the trophy in the last game. Not a super strong connection, but by virtue of being indies, they have some.

 

[Wwlink55]

Success.

Now, where were we, guys?

Why so mean to Connor?

 

[TOY the Gamer]

I still think Shantae did better on the Ballot, just because she had a LOT more hype and support surrounding her, and she still does.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

Why so mean to Connor?

I pledged a sacred oath to this thread, as a double posting officer, to keep this thread safe. It's called justice.

 

[EarlTamm]

Yeah, it’s speculation. But it’s grounded in Sakurai’s comments on third parties which requires them to be of particular noteworthiness for inclusion. Indies would break his rules in that way for third party inclusions, so he’s likely not going to go super out of the way for more than one when one can represent indie gaming as a whole through inclusion. Especially when there would likely be a substantial backlash to multiple indie newcomers in a game with already limited newcomers.

Plus again, Shovel Knight is the highest status indie character we’ve ever seen. He demonstrates that, hey, Sakurai is at least willing to take indie characters seriously enough for AT status, which is better than the trophy in the last game. Not a super strong connection, but by virtue of being indies, they have some.

Makes sense to me. Plus again, Shovel Knight has some orgins in Wayforward itself, we can't exactly say they don't have a connection.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Alright, gentlemen. Here we have an on-demand timer! I think Yellowlord should pin this or put it in the poll so everyone can agonize how much longer it'll be until we get Smash Bros!
https://ssbucountdown.netlify.com/

 

[EarlTamm]

Alright, gentlemen. Here we have an on-demand timer! I think Yellowlord should pin this or put it in the poll so everyone can agonize how much longer it'll be until we get Smash Bros!
https://ssbucountdown.netlify.com/

Huh, neat.

Edit: Also, with this whole discussion on how the Isaac thread thinks of her chances, why don't we just link them the evidence spreadsheet? That is it's purpose after all, to better showcase our evidence for her.

 

[Wademan94]

So since I didn’t get the chance to join in the earlier discussion much, I’d just like to get out some quick thoughts so we can move right along.

I think referring to Shantae as asexual is a bit strong, for all we know she’s probably just content in her current state but is still open to a relationship regardless. None of the potential ships in the series are really that offensive with maybe a few exceptions and I think WayForward is doing fine not making any of them official and just letting fans ship what they want. For me it’s fun to think about the relationships and dynamics between characters, platonically, romantically or otherwise.


Also the music preview is up for those asking

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9qucmc/fan_made_shantae_victory_theme_oc/

Someone put this on the subreddit. Great fan-made victory theme for our favorite gal!

THIS IS GREAT!

 

[meleebrawler]

THIS IS GREAT!

Uh, isn't it a bit long for a victory theme? They're usually half that length.

Still think the Pirate's Curse boss victory hits the sweetspot in length and capturing that arabic vibe.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

Uh, isn't it a bit long for a victory theme? They're usually half that length.

Still think the Pirate's Curse boss victory hits the sweetspot in length and capturing that arabic vibe.

I'd say, the HGH Stage Clear music could work well too, but I do agree with you there, that one is the best.

 

[N3ON]

It's kind of like asking a crowd of people who have never played Golden Sun or Super Mario RPG whether or not they think Isaac/Geno are likely, and then letting many Isaac/Geno fans know the results. Yes, its somewhat informative, but it just seems to be overall....negative...and one of the best parts of Smash speculation is about getting excited.

This isn't the first time my response has been met with claims that I've never played Shantae games, as if playing the games inherently correlates to believing she has a good chance. In fact I have played the first three, I backed the fourth, I like the character, she'd be cool in Smash, you can see I think as much on the first page of this thread, yet having said that, it doesn't mean I believe she has a good chance, because I don't. It's not for a lack of familiarity.

And I get where you're coming from about negativity. Wallowing in it doesn't help anyone, and I would never stick around here to just belabour my difference of opinion. But hearing contrasting beliefs now and again is probably good to prevent echo chambers from forming.

I do agree that we shouldn't be expecting her to be playable. I still think people need to stop comparing her to Shovel Knight, though. They're completely different characters from different companies. Saying Shantae won't be in because Shovel Knight is an assist trophy would be like saying Geno can't get in because Bomberman is an assist trophy. It doesn't make sense.

It's because Shantae and Shovel Knight have more in common with each other than any other regularly-discussed character, as far as criteria for Smash. For better, but more for worse. They both have similar deficits that stem from being western indie characters fighting for inclusion in a triple-A, Japanese crossover that focuses on Japanese characters, and therein their paths to inclusion would, ostensibly, be quite alike.

The difference is Shovel Knight has a stronger standing in several notable categories such as popularity, impact, and ties to Nintendo, and he still only made AT. The areas in which Shantae may prove superior, which I believe is mostly just a greater number of titles, seems to be of lesser merit as criterion. So including Shantae over Shovel Knight seems like forgoing the hierarchy of qualities Smash historically values.

These are solid counter-arguments. I do think she has a chance still, but I don't quite agree with WayForward being silent just because they lost the Ballot. I say that because the Wii U and 3DS versions HAD to be on parity with one another, and since the 3DS couldn't handle transforming characters, that's why she wasn't picked.

You're right, WayForward is quiet about the ballot because that **** ended three years ago. Like every other company who pushed for a character in the ballot, including Yacht Club, who actually had their character included, the silence is simply because the campaign is over.

Oh, im not saying it isn't important to have dissenting voices, or remembering to acknowledge shortcomings. Its just that it, even if it was unintentional, feels like simple negativity. Im not saying that was the intention, but considering many of us already know about the shortcomings and have almost every reason under the book why she may be unlikely, it is sort of "rubbing salt in the wound" before anything happens.

I would think simple negativity is negativity that doesn't justify or explain itself. It would be negativity that exists just to be negative. The outlooks of those posts may not have been positive, but they all at least elaborated on why they came to that conclusion.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

The difference is Shovel Knight has a stronger standing in several notable categories such as popularity, impact, and ties to Nintendo, and he still only made AT.

Shovel Knight absolutely does not have stronger ties to Nintendo, I don't know how one can even think that. I'd argue against impact as well; Shovel Knight is a well-loved game, but that's about all. Shantae's history puts her more as a character who helped the rise of the indie scene become thing.

You're right, WayForward is quiet about the ballot because that **** ended three years ago. Like every other company who pushed for a character in the ballot, including Yacht Club, who actually had their character included, the silence is simply because the campaign is over.

This doesn't explain why they completely ignore whenever someone asks something regarding Smash. It isn't that they're not actively campaigning for her, it's that they are uncharacteristically silent on the matter altogether.

 

[Deleted member]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9qucmc/fan_made_shantae_victory_theme_oc/

Someone put this on the subreddit. Great fan-made victory theme for our favorite gal!

That’s sweet!!!!

Now do banjo next.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

That’s sweet!!!!

Now do banjo next.

Speaking of Banjo, go back to that thread please.

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of Banjo, go back to that thread please.

Make me

 

[meleebrawler]

This isn't the first time my response has been met with claims that I've never played Shantae games, as if playing the games inherently correlates to believing she has a good chance. In fact I have played the first three, I backed the fourth, I like the character, she'd be cool in Smash, you can see I think as much on the first page of this thread, yet having said that, it doesn't mean I believe she has a good chance, because I don't. It's not for a lack of familiarity.

And I get where you're coming from about negativity. Wallowing in it doesn't help anyone, and I would never stick around here to just belabour my difference of opinion. But hearing contrasting beliefs now and again is probably good to prevent echo chambers from forming.


It's because Shantae and Shovel Knight have more in common with each other than any other regularly-discussed character, as far as criteria for Smash. For better, but more for worse. They both have similar deficits that stem from being western indie characters fighting for inclusion in a triple-A, Japanese crossover that focuses on Japanese characters, and therein their paths to inclusion would, ostensibly, be quite alike.

The difference is Shovel Knight has a stronger standing in several notable categories such as popularity, impact, and ties to Nintendo, and he still only made AT. The areas in which Shantae may prove superior, which I believe is mostly just a greater number of titles, seems to be of lesser merit as criterion. So including Shantae over Shovel Knight seems like forgoing the hierarchy of qualities Smash historically values.


You're right, WayForward is quiet about the ballot because that **** ended three years ago. Like every other company who pushed for a character in the ballot, including Yacht Club, who actually had their character included, the silence is simply because the campaign is over.


I would think simple negativity is negativity that doesn't justify or explain itself. It would be negativity that exists just to be negative. The outlooks of those posts may not have been positive, but they all at least elaborated on why they came to that conclusion.

Since we're talking western/japanese divide, Shantae is far more popular in Japan than Shovel Knight.

And yes, developers aren't talking about the ballot anymore... but Wayforward's silence goes beyond that, avoiding any and all conversation that even remotely pertains to Shantae in Smash. Other developers have either straight up deconfirmed their characters or encouraged fans to continue rallying support even despite the end of the ballot. If you were done with the ballot and didn't get your character in nor wanted to discuss it further, would it not be simpler to just say "no" and put an end to it all immediately?

Shovel Knight is kind of a flash in the pan, his timing was very convenient, but I'd say his brand is losing value with every cameo he makes without releasing a new game of his own. And until that happens, how can we be completely certain that his one game was not just a fluke, or that the original talent behind it still remains?

 

[LaBeteNoire]

This isn't the first time my response has been met with claims that I've never played Shantae games, as if playing the games inherently correlates to believing she has a good chance. In fact I have played the first three, I backed the fourth, I like the character, she'd be cool in Smash, you can see I think as much on the first page of this thread, yet having said that, it doesn't mean I believe she has a good chance, because I don't. It's not for a lack of familiarity.

And I get where you're coming from about negativity. Wallowing in it doesn't help anyone, and I would never stick around here to just belabour my difference of opinion. But hearing contrasting beliefs now and again is probably good to prevent echo chambers from forming.


It's because Shantae and Shovel Knight have more in common with each other than any other regularly-discussed character, as far as criteria for Smash. For better, but more for worse. They both have similar deficits that stem from being western indie characters fighting for inclusion in a triple-A, Japanese crossover that focuses on Japanese characters, and therein their paths to inclusion would, ostensibly, be quite alike.

The difference is Shovel Knight has a stronger standing in several notable categories such as popularity, impact, and ties to Nintendo, and he still only made AT. The areas in which Shantae may prove superior, which I believe is mostly just a greater number of titles, seems to be of lesser merit as criterion. So including Shantae over Shovel Knight seems like forgoing the hierarchy of qualities Smash historically values.


You're right, WayForward is quiet about the ballot because that **** ended three years ago. Like every other company who pushed for a character in the ballot, including Yacht Club, who actually had their character included, the silence is simply because the campaign is over.


I would think simple negativity is negativity that doesn't justify or explain itself. It would be negativity that exists just to be negative. The outlooks of those posts may not have been positive, but they all at least elaborated on why they came to that conclusion.

You are overlooking how Shantae has been far more successful in Japan than Shovel Knight ever was. Nintendo themselves published the game in Japan and audiences still failed to care much for him. Shantae on the other hand has seen a more than modest reception from Japanese audiences (even among Nintendo employees as can be seen by the pieces of fan art Nintendo designers have made and Junichi Masuda tweeting his playthrough of Pirates Curse)

People give Shovel Knight a bit too much credit. He had one game (a great one, no doubt) And it did really well in some places and very poorly in others. He is no closer In Nintendo's heart than Shantae is (yes they published a game for him in one region, but that also proved to be a bad decision on their part and Nintendo often holds a grudge when they give a developer a chance and fail. Just look at Rare after the DK 64 fiasco)

Meanwhile Shantae has had 4 games making money for Nintendo (that they didn't have to back in any way) and they have done well in all regions. They promote her heavily even featuring her in official advertisements putting her alongside Mario and Link. She was the cover for the 3ds Indie section for quite a while before it got removed from the 3ds eshop main menu.

Could she still not be in the game? Of course, but Shovel Knight has nothing to do with it. He is not the end all be all indie, especially not in Japan (where you admitted being the biggest obstacle for a western character would be Japanese demand) Just because he became an Assist doesn't mean no indie could ever hope for more.

Shantae has many feathers in her cap that SK lacked and even tho they might not be enough, the fact that they exist is reason enough to not shackle her to Shovel Knight so she could never rise above.

 

[Mario9919]

For the record, I'm not homophobic. I just don't think Rottae is a good ship.

Maybe Riskae?

Or Shantae X Sky?

 

[hassoutobi]

This isn't the first time my response has been met with claims that I've never played Shantae games, as if playing the games inherently correlates to believing she has a good chance. In fact I have played the first three, I backed the fourth, I like the character, she'd be cool in Smash, you can see I think as much on the first page of this thread, yet having said that, it doesn't mean I believe she has a good chance, because I don't. It's not for a lack of familiarity.

And I get where you're coming from about negativity. Wallowing in it doesn't help anyone, and I would never stick around here to just belabour my difference of opinion. But hearing contrasting beliefs now and again is probably good to prevent echo chambers from forming.


It's because Shantae and Shovel Knight have more in common with each other than any other regularly-discussed character, as far as criteria for Smash. For better, but more for worse. They both have similar deficits that stem from being western indie characters fighting for inclusion in a triple-A, Japanese crossover that focuses on Japanese characters, and therein their paths to inclusion would, ostensibly, be quite alike.

The difference is Shovel Knight has a stronger standing in several notable categories such as popularity, impact, and ties to Nintendo, and he still only made AT. The areas in which Shantae may prove superior, which I believe is mostly just a greater number of titles, seems to be of lesser merit as criterion. So including Shantae over Shovel Knight seems like forgoing the hierarchy of qualities Smash historically values.


You're right, WayForward is quiet about the ballot because that **** ended three years ago. Like every other company who pushed for a character in the ballot, including Yacht Club, who actually had their character included, the silence is simply because the campaign is over.


I would think simple negativity is negativity that doesn't justify or explain itself. It would be negativity that exists just to be negative. The outlooks of those posts may not have been positive, but they all at least elaborated on why they came to that conclusion.

we (or at least i) appreciate antithesis here on the shantae board, but are you really gonna tell me the character with one multi-platform game has more ties with nintendo than a character whom 75% of their games were wholly nintendo exclusive at one point and has history with them dating back to the gameboy? comical. forget the shovel knight amiibo, yacht club commissioned that anyway so it doesnt count, shantae was voluntarily featured on one of the more popular issues of nintendo power and is prominently displayed on eshop and indie promotional material by nintendo.

also on the subject of the ballot ending, and there not being an NDA, i posted this comment a while back:
"...literally everyone involved with the Shantae I.P. is completely radio silent and not even answering questions pertaining to smash. had she have not been in the game, they could easily save themselves and the entire staff a lot of twitter mentions and questions by simply saying "she's not in the game, guys", similar to what (i hear) Pyra's voice actress did. as far as im aware, there's no counter-argument for them directly and deliberately ignoring any and all discussion related to smash, especially when simply telling people "no" would quell a lot of unnecessary hype/inevitable dissapointment if she ended up not being in the game. "

 

[Wwlink55]

Or Shantae X Sky?

Risky + Sky is RiSky and that bugs me.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

I mean, if you think about the indie scene in Japan, you could even say that a character from Cave Story, or maybe even Touhou, would be more likely than Shovel Knight.

 

[Takasmash]

The Dream

My roster is complete
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiiZYoBvegs

 

[Inoj]

LaBeteNoire , what are you doing viewing this thread? You need to help me get out of this situation, before I accidentally do start having sexual congress with a woman, TWICE my age!

Oh, is this PMs? Sorry, wrong place, my bad.

Accidental /ss/ with an Ara Ara? Has meme magic gotten so strong doujins are becoming reality?

Just remember the phrase "I need an adult".

 

[Speculator]

As far as Japan goes, as a resident hopefully I can offer some perspective. The truth is that the vast majority of Western-designed series do not reach the same level of popularity here as their domestic counterparts. I would say SK and Shantae are roughly equal in their presence in Japan - you will see both in boxes on shelves in game stores, but are better known as eShop downloads and are unlikely to generate much discussion.

It takes an absolute smash hit Western game to penetrate the Japanese public awareness - basically something on the level of Minecraft, which is often used as a demo display game in stores for the PS Vita. Even then, a game as big globally as Minecraft pales in comparison to Japanese-grown indie series like Fate or Touhou, which often have whole sections dedicated to them.

It is a massive obstacle for any series to overcome, especially when you consider that even among first-party characters only three have their design origins in the West. Shovel Knight's appearance as an AT is unquestionably the result of his performance in the ballot - I do not think he would have ever been considered to appear on his own merits.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

This isn't the first time my response has been met with claims that I've never played Shantae games, as if playing the games inherently correlates to believing she has a good chance. In fact I have played the first three, I backed the fourth, I like the character, she'd be cool in Smash, you can see I think as much on the first page of this thread, yet having said that, it doesn't mean I believe she has a good chance, because I don't. It's not for a lack of familiarity.

And I get where you're coming from about negativity. Wallowing in it doesn't help anyone, and I would never stick around here to just belabour my difference of opinion. But hearing contrasting beliefs now and again is probably good to prevent echo chambers from forming.


It's because Shantae and Shovel Knight have more in common with each other than any other regularly-discussed character, as far as criteria for Smash. For better, but more for worse. They both have similar deficits that stem from being western indie characters fighting for inclusion in a triple-A, Japanese crossover that focuses on Japanese characters, and therein their paths to inclusion would, ostensibly, be quite alike.

The difference is Shovel Knight has a stronger standing in several notable categories such as popularity, impact, and ties to Nintendo, and he still only made AT. The areas in which Shantae may prove superior, which I believe is mostly just a greater number of titles, seems to be of lesser merit as criterion. So including Shantae over Shovel Knight seems like forgoing the hierarchy of qualities Smash historically values.


You're right, WayForward is quiet about the ballot because that **** ended three years ago. Like every other company who pushed for a character in the ballot, including Yacht Club, who actually had their character included, the silence is simply because the campaign is over.


I would think simple negativity is negativity that doesn't justify or explain itself. It would be negativity that exists just to be negative. The outlooks of those posts may not have been positive, but they all at least elaborated on why they came to that conclusion.

All I gotta say to you is beware our determination, as well as what you claim to know, because any event could knock your world right up. At the same time, I acknowledged that we should also be careful with our knowledge base since that can knock us up with a rather stone-solid fist. But trying to adapt Omni's argument of "oh WF doesn't respond because no ballot" is faulty, at best, because if you don't do your research on your company, you'll simply fall into the assumption cycle, assuming one thing when it's another thing that's correct. WayForward's always been quite open, and during the Ballot Days, they were definitely as vocal as a needy bird. Then they're suddenly silenced, not daring to even comment on anything related to Shantae and Smash. At best, your Shantae fanart that may have Smash elements may get a like, but you won't get a peep out of them. Their silence after their squawking is far more fishy than your eyes currently see at this point in time. So, I'll just end it with this, beware of what you say, because that statement could be proven false with nothing more than a 30 second cinematic. Or a few second clip of her as an AT, which personally works well enough for me.

As far as Japan goes, as a resident hopefully I can offer some perspective. The truth is that the vast majority of Western-designed series do not reach the same level of popularity here as their domestic counterparts. I would say SK and Shantae are roughly equal in their presence in Japan - you will see both in boxes on shelves in game stores, but are better known as eShop downloads and are unlikely to generate much discussion.

It takes an absolute smash hit Western game to penetrate the Japanese public awareness - basically something on the level of Minecraft, which is often used as a demo display game in stores for the PS Vita. Even then, a game as big globally as Minecraft pales in comparison to Japanese-grown indie series like Fate or Touhou, which often have whole sections dedicated to them.

It is a massive obstacle for any series to overcome, especially when you consider that even among first-party characters only three have their design origins in the West. Shovel Knight's appearance as an AT is unquestionably the result of his performance in the ballot - I do not think he would have ever been considered to appear on his own merits.

Your statement's actually incredibly helpful. Thanks for that! At least to me, it is.