Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[Dyllybirdy]

She lives for half of eternity.

But eternity doesn't have a half, it's infinite time.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

FYI, immortality isn't just "lives forever". It can mean you cannot die by age or die by being killed in any way beyond age, or both. So even terminal diseases could do nothing to you but be a royal pain.

So for a half-immortal, it could mean she would live forever. Take a look at various fictional witches. They often don't die of old age, but certainly aren't invincible.

 

[SoupCanMafia]

If she was a fighter, her NDA would be much stricter, so my verdict is that she's going to be an Assist Trophy at best. (I REALLY Hope I'm wrong.)

Hmm... this does sound troubling. However, I'll still keep on the optimistic side of things. And by that, I mean simply state that NDAs simply forbid a company from stating something under an agreement, while liking and retweeting fanart or mockups isn't going to end them.

 

[DOTBHDD]

We keep talking about NDA but like... shouldn't someone post in this thread what an actual NDA is?

I'm gonna head off to Dream Land but I think tomorrow this thread needs to analyze what all an NDA would cover.

So. Homework tonight is finding out what an actual NDA is and are In-Class assignment tomorrow is discussing what classifies under a NDA and if WayForward meets those qualifications.

Alright, class dismissed! You can stay after and talk amongst yourselves if you so choose.

 

[LaBeteNoire]

But eternity doesn't have a half, it's infinite time.

Right, so take Infinite time, but stop halfway through.

FYI, immortality isn't just "lives forever". It can mean you cannot die by age or die by being killed in any way beyond age, or both. So even terminal diseases could do nothing to you but be a royal pain.

So for a half-immortal, it could mean she would live forever. Take a look at various fictional witches. They often don't die of old age, but certainly aren't invincible.

Although it very well could be that, I was only joking on the paradox of "halving infinity" That's why the original post was accompanied by a ""

 

[Sudz]

We keep talking about NDA but like... shouldn't someone post in this thread what an actual NDA is?

I'm gonna head off to Dream Land but I think tomorrow this thread needs to analyze what all an NDA would cover.

So. Homework tonight is finding out what an actual NDA is and are In-Class assignment is discussing what classifies under a NDA and if WayForward meets those qualifications.

Alright, class dismissed! You can stay after and talk amongst yourselves if you so choose.

Generally speaking, my impression is that NDAs deal with the release of confidential information (which obviously varies in specificity)

For one to interact in a nondescript and indirect way with posts on social media doesn't really say anything, so I am going to make the assumption that an NDA would be unaffected by it

 

[Veodok]

We keep talking about NDA but like... shouldn't someone post in this thread what an actual NDA is?

We have; about 50+ pages back. You can just google what an NDA is.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

NDA's don't mean they automatically can say nothing. What it means is they are prevented from saying certain stuff.

Certain stuff can still be "cannot reply to someone asking about if your content is in our product". Another notable thing is that another type of NDA can also include special things like "they cannot be in a similar game right now genre-wise, thus, they cannot speak of whether they're in your product or not". For instance, Rayman is in Brawlhala. It's possible that he isn't able to be in Smash due to a special NDA of a case of "one or the other". This is highly unlikely, and imo, not really a great business idea, but it's still logical. You don't want competition for your product. The important thing to remember, though, is Sakurai wouldn't care, but he isn't Nintendo, and they're more stingy as is. Ironically less so for Rabbids than Rayman(Rabbid versions of Mario and other Nintendo characters is a huge deal since Nintendo is trusting their IP to Ubisoft to uniquely use. That's a major thing that isn't something that happens often, as Nintendo is super protective of their IP). Tangent aside, NDA could just be as simple here as them not saying whether Shantae is playable or not, or they can't directly say she's in Smash. They can be vague without confirming it.

Although it very well could be that, I was only joking on the paradox of "halving infinity" That's why the original post was accompanied by a ""

I'm a Mortal Kombat fan and roleplay as deities all the time. It was relevant to my interest. XD

 

[LaBeteNoire]

We keep talking about NDA but like... shouldn't someone post in this thread what an actual NDA is?

I'm gonna head off to Dream Land but I think tomorrow this thread needs to analyze what all an NDA would cover.

So. Homework tonight is finding out what an actual NDA is and are In-Class assignment tomorrow is discussing what classifies under a NDA and if WayForward meets those qualifications.

Alright, class dismissed! You can stay after and talk amongst yourselves if you so choose.

NDA stands for non-disclosure agreement. The most important word there (at least relevant to our speculation) is "agreement"

What exactly is not to be disclosed is subject the what the parties in question agree on. In this case, Nintendo would give a number of stipulations that Wayforward would have to abide by, but what exactly those stipulations are are completely subject to what Nintendo feels is incredibly important.

Some NDA's can be as free as "Don't directly openly admit to X" under which, hinting or pointing people in certain directions would be fine. Others can be so strict that you are to avoid any position that could even lead you to accidentally reveal a hint to the information not to be disclosed.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

NDAs and stuff
Well here is the Wikipedia page for anyone who wants to learn more about the different types of NDAs.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Naturally, I acknowledge the possibility of Shantae being an AT. However, if that's the case, then I find it to be a bit thoughtless to not have just included her in the previous AT massacre so that they could rip the bandaid off. If she (and Shovel Knight) got in as ATs, it would almost assuredly be a result of the ballot. Therefore, they would absolutely know that she has a fanbase clamoring for her (playable) inclusion. (And though it's conjecture, I believe it's a reasonable assertion to believe that Ashley was shoe-horned in at the end of that segment in an attempt to "rip the bandaid off" for her fans.)

In that case, she should have been presented alongside Shovel Knight. Moreover, her absence (and Shovel Knight's inclusion) obviously ignites the hope that she's playable. At that, the development team would have been doubly thoughtless not to take that into consideration. Unless they just assume that we're that pessimistic that we would have interpreted it as her not being in at all, in any capacity.

I don't know... it just seems really sloppy.

I wouldn't be surprised, but it would be sloppy and I have to call them on that.

 

[Cool Guy 36]

Hi Shantae fans, just came here to support you. Sorry about the direct being delayed due to the earthquake. I hope everybody in Japan is all right. Hopefully, their recovery is swift and speedy.

I hope all of you guys get your wish come true soon. So, I made some fan art for you guys to enjoy.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Naturally, I acknowledge the possibility of Shantae being an AT. However, if that's the case, then I find it to be a bit thoughtless to not have just included her in the previous AT massacre so that they could rip the bandaid off. If she (and Shovel Knight) got in as ATs, it would almost assuredly be a result of the ballot. Therefore, they would absolutely know that she has a fanbase clamoring for her (playable) inclusion. (And though it's conjecture, I believe it's a reasonable assertion to believe that Ashley was shoe-horned in at the end of that segment in an attempt to "rip the bandaid off" for her fans.)

In that case, she should have been presented alongside Shovel Knight. Moreover, her absence (and Shovel Knight's inclusion) obviously ignites the hope that she's playable. At that, the development team would have been doubly thoughtless not to take that into consideration. Unless they just assume that we're that pessimistic that we would have interpreted it as her not being in at all, in any capacity.

I don't know... it just seems really sloppy.

I wouldn't be surprised, but it would be sloppy and I have to call them on that.

Well, consider how Ashley was just shown but not focused on. It was actually worse than simply giving her a proper showcase. So I wouldn't say it's impossible for her to be an AT just because of what you said, it just means Sakurai isn't perfect at noting each AT as is. He gave Waluigi a showcase too, after all.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

Hi Shantae fans, just came here to support you. Sorry about the direct being delayed due to the earthquake. I hope everybody in Japan is all right. Hopefully, their recovery is swift and speedy.

I hope all of you guys get your wish come true soon. So, I made some fan art for you guys to enjoy.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Hopefully elephant Shantae doesn't accidentally squish poor Kirby... great artwork though!

 

[Shinuto]

Well, consider how Ashley was just shown but not focused on. It was actually worse than simply giving her a proper showcase. So I wouldn't say it's impossible for her to be an AT just because of what you said, it just means Sakurai isn't perfect at noting each AT as is. He gave Waluigi a showcase too, after all.

I believe this is different, since we're dealing with someone else's property here.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I believe this is different, since we're dealing with someone else's property here.

That doesn't really mean she would've been shown off alongside Shovel Knight either way.

There's little difference overall. The point is just because you're an AT doesn't mean you follow the same rules as others when being shown off. Yes, there's the 3rd party factor, but there could be other reasons she wasn't. Her AT might've not been fully ready(Waluigi's isn't in the e3 Demo), it could've been intended to be shown off while promoting a game or game update coming soon. There's too many possible factors. It does little to really give us a clue of what Shantae's chances are. The only thing the Shovel Knight AT proved is that "Yes, Indies can be in Smash's gameplay." No more, no less.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Well, consider how Ashley was just shown but not focused on. It was actually worse than simply giving her a proper showcase. So I wouldn't say it's impossible for her to be an AT just because of what you said, it just means Sakurai isn't perfect at noting each AT as is. He gave Waluigi a showcase too, after all.

Hence, I believe she (Ashley) was shoe-horned in.

I actually take it as a silver lining that Ashley (she was my third most wanted) was shown off haphazardly at the end like that because it almost feels as though they felt compelled to do so. Like they figured, "we should rip this band-aid off before it gets out of hand". All the prior ATs were either new or returning after being dropped (Gray Fox). She's out of place in that line-up.

And I never suggested that it was impossible for Shantae to be an AT due to that reasoning. I was saying that it is possible and if it comes to pass, it was sloppy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hence, I believe she (Ashley) was shoe-horned in.

I actually take it as a silver lining that Ashley (she was my third most wanted) was shown off haphazardly at the end like that because it almost feels as though they felt compelled to do so. Like they figured, "we should rip this band-aid off before it gets out of hand". All the prior ATs were either new or returning after being dropped (Gray Fox). She's out of place in that line-up.

And I never suggested that it was impossible for Shantae to be an AT due to that reasoning. I was saying that it is possible and if it comes to pass, it was sloppy.

Note my post above about why I don't think it'd necessarily be sloppy. It could be, but there might be more to it than meets the eye. In many cases, the reveal of things have timing as a key point to it. Just like some pic of the days actually were correlated to game releases and such. Or for another example, Wario's showcase trailer was posted right in time for WarioWare Gold to promote it. Despite it not being an older game he's from, which you think "Memories" would be. Could go anywhere. I did misread and sorry for implying something you weren't making an argument of. That's my bad.

 

[Hollywoodrok12]

A lot of those are art related though. And they have still only liked those Tweets. Never fully saying anything about Smash directly. There's definitely an NDA going on.

Maybe for a few of them, but for the art with Crash and Banjo, along with the tweet with Lilac the subject matter isn't "Shantae". It's Smash. If there was an NDA on the fighter level, they'd definitely steer clear of anything involving it.

Just look at Shovel Knight. Nintendo knew that the game wouldn't be ruined if Shovel Knight was leaked as an AT, so they were allowed to RT that one article that had SK in it with no problem.

NDAs and stuff
Well here is the Wikipedia page for anyone who wants to learn more about the different types of NDAs.

The page states that any forms of disclosure must be previously outlined, and it's very unlikely that Nintendo would think to allow Twitter Likes (at least on a fighter level).

Naturally, I acknowledge the possibility of Shantae being an AT. However, if that's the case, then I find it to be a bit thoughtless to not have just included her in the previous AT massacre so that they could rip the bandaid off. If she (and Shovel Knight) got in as ATs, it would almost assuredly be a result of the ballot. Therefore, they would absolutely know that she has a fanbase clamoring for her (playable) inclusion. (And though it's conjecture, I believe it's a reasonable assertion to believe that Ashley was shoe-horned in at the end of that segment in an attempt to "rip the bandaid off" for her fans.)

In that case, she should have been presented alongside Shovel Knight. Moreover, her absence (and Shovel Knight's inclusion) obviously ignites the hope that she's playable. At that, the development team would have been doubly thoughtless not to take that into consideration. Unless they just assume that we're that pessimistic that we would have interpreted it as her not being in at all, in any capacity.

I don't know... it just seems really sloppy.

I wouldn't be surprised, but it would be sloppy and I have to call them on that.

Actually, it would make sense for her to be withheld as an AT, since they would need a heavy hitter reveal for their November(?) AT massacre.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Theres nothing saying they can't retweet a tweet with hasthtags and stuff related to smash.

You guys are pretty diligent huh?

Anyway, I've been making a shantae video but my progress got lost because of a thunderstorm. It would have been to explain why she has a chance to people who think she's a joke pick.

Should I start over?

 

[Shinuto]

That doesn't really mean she would've been shown off alongside Shovel Knight either way.

There's little difference overall. The point is just because you're an AT doesn't mean you follow the same rules as others when being shown off. Yes, there's the 3rd party factor, but there could be other reasons she wasn't. Her AT might've not been fully ready(Waluigi's isn't in the e3 Demo), it could've been intended to be shown off while promoting a game or game update coming soon. There's too many possible factors. It does little to really give us a clue of what Shantae's chances are. The only thing the Shovel Knight AT proved is that "Yes, Indies can be in Smash's gameplay." No more, no less.

I meant that her being 3rd party means she will likely be shown off BEFORE the game's release.

You guys are pretty diligent huh?

Anyway, I've been making a shantae video but my progress got lost because of a thunderstorm. It would have been to explain why she has a chance to people who think she's a joke pick.

Should I start over?

Yes

 

[Dyllybirdy]

You guys are pretty diligent huh?

Anyway, I've been making a shantae video but my progress got lost because of a thunderstorm. It would have been to explain why she has a chance to people who think she's a joke pick.

Should I start over?

How long had you been working on the video for? As much as I would love to see another Shantae for Smash video, if it's too hard to redo, I perfectly understand.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I meant that her being 3rd party means she will likely be shown off BEFORE the game's release

Ahhhh.

I thought so too anyway. I'm just saying her being shown off in a direct other than Shovel Knight didn't seem super obvious as an idea to me. They're in similar overall positions(likely Indie options, super popular), but yeah.

 

[Shinuto]

Ahhhh.

I thought so too anyway. I'm just saying her being shown off in a direct other than Shovel Knight didn't seem super obvious as an idea to me. They're in similar overall positions(likely Indie options, super popular), but yeah.

Here's the thing, I can't remember but was there a second AT reel for Smash 4, I know it had less overall but unless the next Smash Direct has another reel I doubt she'd show up as one. ( I say this as I assume a general Nintendo direct like this delayed one is unlikely to have a portion long enough to put time on something as relatively "unimportant" as Assist Trophies.)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Here's the thing, I can't remember but was there a second AT reel for Smash 4, I know it had less overall but unless the next Smash Direct has another reel I doubt she'd show up as one. ( I say this as I assume a general Nintendo direct like this delayed one is unlikely to have a portion long enough to put time on something as relatively "unimportant" as Assist Trophies.)

I think I'm almost starting to misread/missay stuff. But yeah, I agree. I think she'll be known as an AT(if as one) in a Direct, Smash or Nintendo-focused as is.

If she's playable, she's obviously going to be shown before release. I feel she's talked about way too much to be only shown after Smash's release.

 

[zferolie]

wow that was like 6 pages in the last 6 hours.... jesus guys did something happen haha

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Note my post above about why I don't think it'd necessarily be sloppy. It could be, but there might be more to it than meets the eye. In many cases, the reveal of things have timing as a key point to it. Just like some pic of the days actually were correlated to game releases and such. Or for another example, Wario's showcase trailer was posted right in time for WarioWare Gold to promote it. Despite it not being an older game he's from, which you think "Memories" would be. Could go anywhere.

While I understand their patterns for revealing things, to the casual observer it only makes it appear as though Shantae's chances skyrocket with Shovel Knight out of the way. Even if Shovel Knight's AT is complete and ready to go, I would think it would be a better move to hold him back until he could be revealed alongside Shantae's.

This lack of consideration makes me believe they're misinterpreting their audience's reactions. Which is completely possible (given Nintendo didn't even know people wanted K. Rool back; seriously?), but also disappointing.

I'm not suggesting I'd fly off the rails if she's an AT, to the contrary, I understand how valuable even receiving just an AT (or trophy) is for that character and what it means for their potential in the future. It's some of the best advertising you can get (seriously, how many people on this board actually knew who Ayumi or Donbe were prior to Melee?) for a series. Unprecedented for an indie even.

But while I understand that, the average joe won't. It's pretty apparent (given that this thread is the third largest support thread now; second if you exclude Ashley's) that spirits have ignited in the wake of Shovel Knight's AT reveal. I feel like it's a fair criticism to lobby against the development team that they've misread the crowd and have done a slight disservice by not nipping this in the bud sooner.

I similarly felt critical of Ridley's initial stage hazard reveal (in Smash 4) because they didn't make it absolutely apparent that he wasn't playable. You could consider that an unfair criticism (and I would understand that) as, after all, they're only human and they aren't mind-readers. And by their measure, that should be a hard deconfirmation. But as a business entity, I feel it's incumbent upon them to understand their audience a bit more clearly than that. And at the very least, be absolutely clear in regards to highly requested characters.

So while by every metric the good intention isn't lost on me, it feels sloppy. It could have been more clear.

Especially considering that prior to Shovel Knight's reveal, people did seem genuinely pessimistic about her odds. Revealing an AT at that moment would have garnered the absolute best reaction because her fans weren't expecting anything. (And while there are a litany of Shovel Knight fans that were salty about it, a lot of them took the news very well since they were in the same boat expecting nothing; far different from most AT reveals, as you could see with Waluigi i.e. no one was genuinely happy to see him be an AT, aside from haters).

They already missed their best opportunity.

Actually, it would make sense for her to be withheld as an AT, since they would need a heavy hitter reveal for their November(?) AT massacre.

Doesn't actually refute my point that it would be sloppy.

It would be a complete misread of her fans' desires and reactions.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

While I understand their patterns for revealing things, to the casual observer it only makes it appear as though Shantae's chances skyrocket with Shovel Knight out of the way. Even if Shovel Knight's AT is complete and ready to go, I would think it would be a better move to hold him back until he could be revealed alongside Shantae's.

This lack of consideration makes me believe they're misinterpreting their audience's reactions. Which is completely possible (given Nintendo didn't even know people wanted K. Rool back; seriously?), but also disappointing.

I'm not suggesting I'd fly off the rails if she's an AT, to the contrary, I understand how valuable even receiving just an AT (or trophy) is for that character and what it means for their potential in the future. It's some of the best advertising you can get (seriously, how many people on this board actually knew who Ayumi or Donbe were prior to Melee?) for a series. Unprecedented for an indie even.

There is no patterns. That's the point.

But while I understand that, the average joe won't. It's pretty apparent (given that this thread is the third largest support thread now; second if you exclude Ashley's) that spirits have ignited in the wake of Shovel Knight's AT reveal. I feel like it's a fair criticism to lobby against the development team that they've misread the crowd and have done a slight disservice by not nipping this in the bud sooner.

Possibly, but there's probably more reasoning than just "sloppy", as you're putting it.

I similarly felt critical of Ridley's initial stage hazard reveal (in Smash 4) because they didn't make it absolutely apparent that he wasn't playable. You could consider that an unfair criticism (and I would understand that) as, after all, they're only human and they aren't mind-readers. And by their measure, that should be a hard deconfirmation. But as a business entity, I feel it's incumbent upon them to understand their audience a bit more clearly than that. And at the very least, be absolutely clear in regards to highly requested characters.

Shantae on the other hand isn't in the same boat here. She isn't even hinted at in any way. SK just means SK, no more, no less.

So while by every metric the good intention isn't lost on me, it feels sloppy. It could have been more clear.

Especially considering that prior to Shovel Knight's reveal, people did seem genuinely pessimistic about her odds. Revealing an AT at that moment would have garnered the absolute best reaction because her fans weren't expecting anything. (And while there are a litany of Shovel Knight fans that were salty about it, a lot of them took the news very well since they were in the same boat expecting nothing; far different from most AT reveals, as you could see with Waluigi i.e. no one was genuinely happy to see him be an AT, aside from haters).

They already missed their best opportunity.

There was never a prime opportunity because we don't know if she's even an AT at this point. There's too much riding on the idea she's an AT or playable only, without taking into account how they intended to reveal her. We don't know enough factors. Forgot about SK for a moment. His reveal was his own thing and nothing to do with any other character. He was a popular ballot pick as is, and that was among a direct full of them too. So that could be the sole reason he was shown. There's no denying him being shown helps speculation for Shantae, but that's kind of all they got in common.

Doesn't actually refute my point that it would be sloppy.

It would be a complete misread of her fans' desires and reactions.

It kind of does. You're making a heavy assumption of when she must be revealed. No, she shouldn't necessarily be revealed near Shovel Knight's. She should be revealed based upon promotional purposes that fit the current Shantae games. It's not sloppy because there was absolutely zero hints she was in the game(unlike ones like Ridley). She's her own thing. I feel the issue here is that it's like you're trying to compare Shovel Knight and Shantae's situations, but also saying he somehow is being treated better as her due to the timing of his reveal. It's really not. We don't know the full story. There's not enough data. I can understand your point too, but I don't agree whatsoever with it being sloppy. I agree it'd have been a potential good time to show her. But that's all I can honestly agree upon.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

I'm gone for half a day and come back to 9 new pages, holy moly. I see we have ever more conspiracies to theorize. Good, I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Baws]

Ahh I didn't know about these WayForward Twitter Smash likes. So they are refraining from RESPONDING to anything, but they are able to "like" Shantae4Smash related posts. They are basically in almost the exact same situation Yacht Club was in.

Sorry, this all but confirms that she is in the game, but not playable. I hate to be a party pooper, but at this point everyone should just prepare themselves for the worst and be ready for that Assist Trophy.

Personally, I am still super excited that she even made it this far and I can't wait to see how an official HD 3D Shantae looks for the first time

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

There is no patterns. That's the point.

I thought you may have been suggesting a pattern with your "co-incidence to events" claim (which has some validity to it) and was countering with a suggestion in spite of patterns. If you don't believe there are patterns, that actually strengthens my point.

Possibly, but there's probably more reasoning than just "sloppy", as you're putting it.

I'm sure there are reasons. It's still a misread.

Shantae on the other hand isn't in the same boat here. She isn't even hinted at in any way. SK just means SK, no more, no less.

Shovel Knight and Shantae, despite being from two totally different series and companies, are often depicted together. Often in cross-overs, in Nintendo promotions on the eshop and neck-in-neck in fan polling. I've seen your apprehensions with the latter before so I won't use her placement in those polls as evidence, but what is important here are the depictions of the two characters and how the wider public interpret it. To them, they may as well be conjoined at the hips.

I'm actually critical of this in the same way as you are. I believe they should be treated as two totally different characters, franchises and companies, because they are. But in the business world, your image is who you are. If people see them conjoined, they're conjoined. Despite my protests. They are, simply put, a duality. But I'm certainly fine with you joining the fight with me against this interpretation. xD

There was never a prime opportunity because we don't know if she's even an AT at this point. There's too much riding on the idea she's an AT or playable only, without taking into account how they intended to reveal her. We don't know enough factors. Forgot about SK for a moment. His reveal was his own thing and nothing to do with any other character. He was a popular ballot pick as is, and that was among a direct full of them too. So that could be the sole reason he was shown. There's no denying him being shown helps speculation for Shantae, but that's kind of all they got in common.

True. She could be a regular trophy.

In which case, unfortunately, I believe people would clamor for her to be DLC and would likely be disappointed. Her moveset is too complex to work with the limited resources involved with DLC (I believe there's an interview somewhere in regards to Smash 4's DLC that mentions this; it was part of their "realizable" statement, whether or not they could use assets in the game already to take programming shortcuts).

As well, we don't even know if DLC will necessarily follow ballot guidelines. The ballot may only apply to the base roster.

It kind of does. You're making a heavy assumption of when she must be revealed. No, she shouldn't necessarily be revealed near Shovel Knight's. She should be revealed based upon promotional purposes that fit the current Shantae games. It's not sloppy because there was absolutely zero hints she was in the game(unlike ones like Ridley). She's her own thing. I feel the issue here is that it's like you're trying to compare Shovel Knight and Shantae's situations, but also saying he somehow is being treated better as her due to the timing of his reveal. It's really not. We don't know the full story. There's not enough data. I can understand your point too, but I don't agree whatsoever with it being sloppy. I agree it'd have been a potential good time to show her. But that's all I can honestly agree upon.

The saving grace here (though it would be unfortunate for her fans) is if she's a regular trophy.

That means they'd have an excuse not to show her and WayForward don't look like jerks for staying quiet about Smash. All the other scenarios would entail someone being sloppy.

If she isn't in the game at all, I would say WayForward has a lot to answer up for. They definitely should have nipped this in the bud in that scenario. No question at all.

If she's an AT, I would say the Smash developers were sloppy for opening up the idea of indie representation and not realizing that Shantae and Shovel Knight are seen as a duality (when Nintendo, themselves, advertise them side-by-side).

If she's playable... Welp.

---

Incidentally, I don't mean any spite by this (even if it seems that way; it can be difficult to convey emotion through text). But I do feel that calling the ordeal "sloppy" in the case that she's an AT (and only in that case) is a very mild criticism.

If you feel differently, that's fine too. I'm not an arbiter of objectivity in regards to Smash, luckily people can draw their own conclusions. I'm merely offering my opinion.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

Sorry, this all but confirms that she is in the game, but not playable. I hate to be a party pooper, but at this point everyone should just prepare themselves for the worst and be ready for that Assist Trophy.

I'll just be happy for her even if she is an assist trophy, but I really don't think this says anything about her status within the game.

 

[DeadlyLampshade]

Ahh I didn't know about these WayForward Twitter Smash likes. So they are refraining from RESPONDING to anything, but they are able to "like" Shantae4Smash related posts. They are basically in almost the exact same situation Yacht Club was in.

Sorry, this all but confirms that she is in the game, but not playable. I hate to be a party pooper, but at this point everyone should just prepare themselves for the worst and be ready for that Assist Trophy.

Personally, I am still super excited that she even made it this far and I can't wait to see how an official HD 3D Shantae looks for the first time

Fundamentally, liking #ShantaeForSmash posts doesn't mean anything about her chances, it might be their continued support of this fact and have nothing to do with her actually appearing in Smash. Its one of those cases where I think people read too deep into innocent things.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'll keep it simple, since I only disagree with one point; that Shovel Knight and Shantae being shown together means much. It doesn't for Sakurai. He doesn't follow the patterns of other companies.

The reality is he does his own thing entirely. Yes, he might show something off to correspond with a release/promotional date, but that's kind of it. It's irrelevant to him how SK and Shantae are shown together, because that's not how he does things. He has his own pace. He's very very stubborn that way. So that won't matter. It's the same reason you shouldn't expect a highly prominent/promoted character from a series to inherently be playable. This is why Ashely was seen as super likely yet she isn't in. Because that's not enough for Sakurai. Things like fan demand and making the moveset work are significantly more important. For the same reason, this is why I don't believe Isabelle is a remote shoe-in. I rate her a realistic 70%(she is highly popular, but it's less so during the ballot. She also does not work as an Echo, due to vastly different proportions and being unable to really work similar to Villager. She doesn't do even half of what he does. She has her own very unique styles in her game that makes her only best as a clone or more unique. Beyond that, her explicit personality in Smash is she won't fight. So while I think she has a very good chance, there's enough factors that she isn't a lock).

Hopefully that gives you an idea of why trying to think Sakurai follows usual business patterns isn't the best way to look at it. I mean, yes, he can sometimes. But if he didn't show off Shantae(who honestly I'd be flabberghasted if she isn't remotely present in the game at all) because it wasn't the right time for how he wanted to show her off, assuming she's an AT in this case. It didn't work for his plans. He plans this stuff out. He has an ideal setup of how he does it. Revealing two AT's that happen to be often shown off together in unrelated works to Smash as is? Eh, kind of irrelevant to him. That's not the best way to do it. The best way is to figure out what fits the situation as is. For instance, say an actual Indie character is playable(ignoring Steve? who is the true face of Indies, as he actually started as one and was immensely iconic before being bought out). This is a better time to show off Shantae as an AT as she also more relevant to Nintendo. SK is given a lesser appearance time-wise because he has a lower popularity rating in Japan(another good reason to not show them together). Or, alternatively, Shantae is meant to have a game showcased specifically in the Nintendo direct, and they want to show her AT only then. Nindies would easily be overshadowed by Smash content, so the timing isn't good to do so then. Thus, they wait for the proper direct.

 

[Baws]

Fundamentally, liking #ShantaeForSmash posts doesn't mean anything about her chances, it might be their continued support of this fact and have nothing to do with her actually appearing in Smash. Its one of those cases where I think people read too deep into innocent things.

No, because realistically speaking: If they are allowed to like and retweet Smash posts, then they are also allowed to respond as long as they are not revealing anything. This almost certainly means their NDA is not as strict as we (or I, at least) thought. There is absolutely no way a 3rd Party with a language barrier would ever be allowed to even entertain the idea of their characters' existence relative to Smash if they were a fighter.

They are probably only refraining from actually responding because of the particularly annoying (for them) fans who interrogate them on every single post, like Toy the Gamer. When they know that they have hardcore fans like that, it's simply easier to just not respond, even though they can.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

snip

I can understand that.

And in that regard, I disagree with Sakurai. Personally, I think it would have been better to showcase them together. But, as I've said before, that's simply my opinion. My opinion is no more valid than anyone else's.

I hope that's fair.

They are probably only refraining from actually responding because of the particularly annoying (for them) fans who interrogate them on every single post, like Toy the Gamer. When they know that they have hardcore fans like that, it's simply easier to just not respond, even though they can.

Unlikely.

They could nip all speculation in the bud immediately by responding to even a single user with a clear and concise answer. It's also out-of-character for them not to communicate in a clear fashion.

So at absolute minimum, I'd say she's a regular trophy in the game. (Unless stickers are back, then that would be the minimum.)

Edit: Ah, you are still insinuating they're under an NDA. My bad.

Anyways, I still disagree as it's not in their character to be that malicious. If there was a way for them to communicate more loosely, you can reasonably expect them to do so. That would imply their NDA prevents them from responding.

 

[M00NFIRE94]

I personally hope she's not a trophy but in the event that happens (if that happens), I'll get over it but until that day comes, I'll continue rooting for her chances as a fighter.

 

[GoldLiger]

Well as one poster pointed out that another Indie dev answered someone's question when it pertains to their IP being in Smash yet WayForward, Matt Bozon and even Shantae's VA has been silent on the matter. They could have ended all of this speculation by just answering someone's tweet and letting us know she is NOT in as playable. Heck if Shantae was in any other fighting game I would be okay with her being an AT because at least I can play as her in another fighting game. Yet what do we see:

- No other fighting game even though she is highly requested
- WayForward and Friends silence when it comes to DIRECT question about Shantae
- The devs of those other fighting games vague answers to why Shantae isn't in their games(again even though she is highly requested)

If Shantae turns out to be a simple AT after all then why the heck would WayForward not allow her to be in those other fighters. They would be under no such restrictions if all it turns out to be is a simple cameo(via a simple trophy or AT).

That plus all the obvious hints they dropped on us with Jammies Mode(like seriously the amount of hints in that mode just SCREAMS Smash Bros related) but they won't outright talk to us about the subject. If all this is just for an AT position then WayForward will have A LOT to answer for.

EDIT: Another thing Snake who came out for Brawl was under a None compete clause that didn't allow him to be in another platform fighting game which is why he wasn't in PlayStation All Stars. Shantae could be under a STRICTER None Compete Clause that won't allow her to be shown in ANY fighting game until months after Smash Ultimate comes out.

 

[EarlTamm]

Man, this thread has certainly increased over night. Lots to talk about I guess.

 

[Hollywoodrok12]

Well as one poster pointed out that another Indie dev answered someone's question when it pertains to their IP being in Smash yet WayForward, Matt Bozon and even Shantae's VA has been silent on the matter. They could have ended all of this speculation by just answering someone's tweet and letting us know she is NOT in as playable. Heck if Shantae was in any other fighting game I would be okay with her being an AT because at least I can play as her in another fighting game. Yet what do we see:

- No other fighting game even though she is highly requested
- WayForward and Friends silence when it comes to DIRECT question about Shantae
- The devs of those other fighting games vague answers to why Shantae isn't in their games(again even though she is highly requested)

If Shantae turns out to be a simple AT after all then why the heck would WayForward not allow her to be in those other fighters. They would be under no such restrictions if all it turns out to be is a simple cameo(via a simple trophy or AT).

That plus all the obvious hints they dropped on us with Jammies Mode(like seriously the amount of hints in that mode just SCREAMS Smash Bros related) but they won't outright talk to us about the subject. If all this is just for an AT position then WayForward will have A LOT to answer for.

EDIT: Another thing Snake who came out for Brawl was under a None compete clause that didn't allow him to be in another platform fighting game which is why he wasn't in PlayStation All Stars. Shantae could be under a STRICTER None Compete Clause that won't allow her to be shown in ANY fighting game until months after Smash Ultimate comes out.

They could just be strict with who they let use the IP. The only thing that was leading our speculation to a non-compete clause is confirmation bias.

EDIT: An NDA is an NDA. They can’t say anything until Nintendo says so, regardless of if she’s playable or not.