Self Defense: "Weak men put their hands on women for any reason!"

[adumbrodeus]

I think you're being far too complimentary given the behavior I've seen when they filter over to reddit (which is saying something). Not to mention they're perfectly fine with running their own raids and the like, the father's day thing was their false flag op for example.

 

[DunnoBro]

Like I said, they're not without fault. I'll take some harmless idiocy like that when they do stuff like get deluded, hateful women who ruin the lives of others over petty **** that didn't involve them whatsoever like Adria Richard fired too.

Parts of reddit aren't really any better than /pol/ though. SRS being the most relate-able and opposite. Though the site itself with its censorship, shadowbans, and overall shady **** is even less palpable to me than a site where people are(were) free to be themselves. I love reddit and use it daily as well, but let's be for real. You disagree in the wrong subreddit despite the most eloquent, and logical explanation you can muster, you're still going to get downvoted to hell, banned, and even if the users would disagree with that decision they probably will never know cause you were shadowbanned.

There are prices to pay for everything. For a nice, friendly environment like reddit, it's the potency of people afraid to go too far. For a cruel but effective environment like 4chan, it's that people kind of want to go too far, just because they can. Anonymity + freedom of speech = The true person inside. It just so happens to turn out most people are really crappy inside.

 

[Doon]

i like to consider myself a support egalitarian humanism, and it really makes me sad to see people focusing on a single issue like gender issues as sopposed to other issues that encompass gender issues.

some people make the argument that only one thing can be fought for at a time, but i disagree. even if that were true, aren't racial genocides deserving to have more priority taken over the way some japanese nerd draws samus in a a latex suit?? lol, just my 2 cents.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Like I said, they're not without fault. I'll take some harmless idiocy like that when they do stuff like get deluded, hateful women who ruin the lives of others over petty **** that didn't involve them whatsoever like Adria Richard fired too.

Parts of reddit aren't really any better than /pol/ though. SRS being the most relate-able and opposite. Though the site itself with its censorship, shadowbans, and overall shady **** is even less palpable to me than a site where people are(were) free to be themselves. I love reddit and use it daily as well, but let's be for real. You disagree in the wrong subreddit despite the most eloquent, and logical explanation you can muster, you're still going to get downvoted to hell, banned, and even if the users would disagree with that decision they probably will never know cause you were shadowbanned.

There are prices to pay for everything. For a nice, friendly environment like reddit, it's the potency of people afraid to go too far. For a cruel but effective environment like 4chan, it's that people kind of want to go too far, just because they can. Anonymity + freedom of speech = The true person inside. It just so happens to turn out most people are really crappy inside.

Reddit leans the same way politically and quite frankly isn't a "nice enviroment". SRS is a tiny minority relative to the community as a whole.

My point is reddit is a notoriously racist, misogynistic, and generally unfriendly area. /pol/ is a far more extreme version, so you're downplaying it extremely.

Also shadowbanning only happens when you break site rules, like brigading.

i like to consider myself a support egalitarian humanism, and it really makes me sad to see people focusing on a single issue like gender issues as sopposed to other issues that encompass gender issues.

some people make the argument that only one thing can be fought for at a time, but i disagree. even if that were true, aren't racial genocides deserving to have more priority taken over the way some japanese nerd draws samus in a a latex suit?? lol, just my 2 cents.

Sorry, can't hear you. I only read words that might save babies.

 

[DunnoBro]

Reddit leans the same way politically and quite frankly isn't a "nice enviroment". SRS is a tiny minority relative to the community as a whole.

SRS has mods in other reddits, their inherent size isn't as relevant as their influence.

It depends on the subreddit, but no not really. /pol/ is definitely middle whereas reddit is middle-left. 4chan as a whole is harder to gauge. /soc/ /co/ /lgbt/ and the like are very left, but /fit/ /tech/ and /v/ are more middle or right. (And /a/ /b/ and the like really hate politics in general unless it directly effects them) /pol/ is merely where the most enthusiastic of both ends of the spectrum can come together to duke it out.

My point is reddit is a notoriously racist, misogynistic, and generally unfriendly area.

Unfriendly I can get sort of, but the other two...? It depends on the subreddit, there's just as much misandry and anti-racism(or anti-white depending on how you look at it) on there really. But that's not the problem to me, I don't have a problem with people having the ability to be jerks, I have a problem not being allowed to call them out on it. Which reddit 100% doesn't support. All you can do is circlejerk really. This promotes ignorance and corruption, unlike /pol/ (Though /pol/ does support being a jerk)

Also shadowbanning only happens when you break site rules, like brigading.

Oh my, no. There were tons of shadowbans for posting in topics like gamergate week or two ago. You also get shadowbanned if enough of the userbase decides your post, while not rule-breaking is just plain disagreeable.

They selectively enforce how those anti-brigading shadowbans are enforced based on the content/member, not the actual act. A more extensive post on the subject of how mods use shadowbans as a whole: http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/248oc8/warning_reddit_admins_are_selectively_enforcing/

 

[adumbrodeus]

Reddit is left wing, but it's politics are generally racist, misogynistic, pro-lgbtq in theory, but reinforce pretty much every type of social discrimination, and racist. There are some subs that are the opposite, but that's the general bent. They're also of course on average staunch atheists and have a variety of other leftwing positions. Reddit is what you'd expect from a bunch of young straight white cis male STEM fielders, along with all the biases that come with it.

Some subs are the exception but if anyone thinks SRS shows the general state of reddit, they haven't spent much time on reddit. They're a tiny minority of the subs and support for their position on mainlne subs is usually met by massive downvotes.

As for calling people out on it, of course you can, just expect a torrent of downvotes if people aren't sympathetic to your cause.


As far as the shadowbans, lets be honest, probably the anti-brigading system that caught them as brigading, given the reddit staff's general politics.

 

[DunnoBro]

Reddit is left wing, but it's politics are generally racist, misogynistic, pro-lgbtq in theory, but reinforce pretty much every type of social discrimination, and racist. There are some subs that are the opposite, but that's the general bent. They're also of course on average staunch atheists and have a variety of other leftwing positions. Reddit is what you'd expect from a bunch of young straight white cis male STEM fielders, along with all the biases that come with it.

I find it concerning you try to take a moral highground yet project stereotypes of your own. Do you have any examples of this racism/sexism? I admit i suspect it may not be quite so bad considering the use of buzzwords suggesting an intolerance of white culture here, but I must assure you my ears are fully open to you.

Some subs are the exception but if anyone thinks SRS shows the general state of reddit, they haven't spent much time on reddit. They're a tiny minority of the subs and support for their position on mainlne subs is usually met by massive downvotes.

SRS is A MASSIVE conglomeration of other subreddits and other sites (Something Awful forums, NeoGaf, etc) dedicated to criticizing reddit and whining over the most trivial stuff. SRS is not the general state of reddit, but neither is /pol/ to 4chan. Hence why I related them originally. /pol/ is disliked by many of the other boards on 4chan, especially /a/ parts of /v/ (though /lgbt/ isn't as disgusted with them as you might think for reasons unknown to me)

They're just as racist, sexist if not more, and even raid/brigade like /pol/. They're truly bizarro /pol/
https://encyclopediadramatica.es/****_Reddit_Says

As for calling people out on it, of course you can, just expect a torrent of downvotes if people aren't sympathetic to your cause.


As far as the shadowbans, lets be honest, probably the anti-brigading system that caught them as brigading, given the reddit staff's general politics.

Uh, we were already honest. I've been gauging this for a while now, especially with gamergate. Extremely visible corruption censorship there.

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAct...ehensive_overview_of_gamergate_censorship_on/

 

[adumbrodeus]

I find it concerning you try to take a moral highground yet project stereotypes of your own. Do you have any examples of this racism/sexism? I admit i suspect it may not be quite so bad considering the use of buzzwords suggesting an intolerance of white culture here, but I must assure you my ears are fully open to you.

You seem to be under the impression that I couldn't substitute any of those words for it's opposite and if a place constituted that culture, while it would have different prospective you could certainly point to a set of attitudes that the average person has within that culture, and problems that are commonplace among the resulting culture.

That's because cultures are defined by average experience and most people don't have the experiences to understand the experiences of other groups, often even when they try. As such, the biases of a given group are quite easy to predict given enough contact with the specific group and you can usually get a good idea of what slight variations in group identity will cause in terms of bias by contact with social groups that have the other attributes.

Point is, these are the particular biases within this group, you want to discuss the biases of young cis white straight women, young cis asian chinese men, or young cis white gay men, enough contact will allow you to make the same conclusions about common biases, exempting majority culture in the area as expressed in public spaces because everyone's immersed in it there.

(Note: I'm a major in an Engineering field and a social science field, so I'm myself a STEM person) STEM people tend to be unconcerned about culture unless it directly affects them, they also tend to concentrate too much on figures and statistics without considering context and that there might be information you don't have yet. This causes major confirmation bias issues.

Also there tends to be a "smarter then thou" assumption, essentially the idea that because a field is soft and because the person (especially if they're math, physics, engineering, or computers) is smarter then people in the arts, humanities, and social sciences fields then all they need to do is plug in the relevant data and they'll be able to understand any field, again ignoring context, reliable methods of analysis, etc.

Finally (and this is unfortunately common among every field) you get a lot of hero worship of personalities relevant in STEM fields, which is great when they're speaking in their fields, but a problem when say, an astrophysicist is talking about history.

SRS is A MASSIVE conglomeration of other subreddits and other sites (Something Awful forums, NeoGaf, etc) dedicated to criticizing reddit and whining over the most trivial stuff. SRS is not the general state of reddit, but neither is /pol/ to 4chan. Hence why I related them originally. /pol/ is disliked by many of the other boards on 4chan, especially /a/ parts of /v/ (though /lgbt/ isn't as disgusted with them as you might think for reasons unknown to me)

They're just as racist, sexist if not more, and even raid/brigade like /pol/. They're truly bizarro /pol/
https://encyclopediadramatica.es/****_Reddit_Says

My point wasn't that /pol/ is representative of 4chan, my point was that by every expirience I've had with /pol/ tells me that it's a particular ****hole of the biases that are most common in majority culture in america but generally if people express them they're considered assholes, and rightfully so. The thing is sites like this act like it's politically correct because racism is right and nobody wants to ruffle the SJW's feathers, when in reality it's all confirmation bias and poor context.

Not much experience with SRS, but plenty of tumblr experience, blackwashing is extremely racist in that it's eurocentric but no less racist then factual falcon.

Uh, we were already honest. I've been gauging this for a while now, especially with gamergate. Extremely visible corruption censorship there.

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAct...ehensive_overview_of_gamergate_censorship_on/

I think you're misunderstanding my point which is "never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity". The adminship of reddit is not feminist and falls along the same demographics as reddit in general, if there's anything I'd expect to be censored on purpose it's the anti-gamersgate crowd.

Speaking of which, that entire thing was bull****.

 

[DunnoBro]

You seem to be under the impression that I couldn't substitute any of those words for it's opposite and if a place constituted that culture, while it would have different prospective you could certainly point to a set of attitudes that the average person has within that culture, and problems that are commonplace among the resulting culture.

You seem to be under the impression the issue is more the words themselves rather than the views likely connected to those who use them. Those perceived sterotypical views don't flip just because the words do.

That's because cultures are defined by average experience and most people don't have the experiences to understand the experiences of other groups, often even when they try. As such, the biases of a given group are quite easy to predict given enough contact with the specific group and you can usually get a good idea of what slight variations in group identity will cause in terms of bias by contact with social groups that have the other attributes.

Point is, these are the particular biases within this group, you want to discuss the biases of young cis white straight women, young cis asian chinese men, or young cis white gay men, enough contact will allow you to make the same conclusions about common biases, exempting majority culture in the area as expressed in public spaces because everyone's immersed in it there.

(Note: I'm a major in an Engineering field and a social science field, so I'm myself a STEM person) STEM people tend to be unconcerned about culture unless it directly affects them, they also tend to concentrate too much on figures and statistics without considering context and that there might be information you don't have yet. This causes major confirmation bias issues.

Again, my issue is not that you are pointing out stereotypes, but rather speaking against racism/classism yet perpetuating it with the same breath. I aim to be neutral as I simply cannot partake in these discussions when they become emotional, so please take no offense when I accuse you of a bit of "doublethink" here.

Also there tends to be a "smarter then thou" assumption, essentially the idea that because a field is soft and because the person (especially if they're math, physics, engineering, or computers) is smarter then people in the arts, humanities, and social sciences fields then all they need to do is plug in the relevant data and they'll be able to understand any field, again ignoring context, reliable methods of analysis, etc.

Finally (and this is unfortunately common among every field) you get a lot of hero worship of personalities relevant in STEM fields, which is great when they're speaking in their fields, but a problem when say, an astrophysicist is talking about history.

These are both woefully true points. But as you said, it's common among every field, and those among the arts, humanities, social sciences, etc are just as guilty of it. It's not a white or cis thing so I'm not sure why you attributed it to them.

My point wasn't that /pol/ is representative of 4chan, my point was that by every expirience I've had with /pol/ tells me that it's a particular ****hole of the biases that are most common in majority culture in america but generally if people express them they're considered *******s, and rightfully so. The thing is sites like this act like it's politically correct because racism is right and nobody wants to ruffle the SJW's feathers, when in reality it's all confirmation bias and poor context.

I'd suggest one shouldn't base their experiences based on the extremes. /pol/ is far from only the raiders, the racists, the misogynists, anymore than smashboards is. But I wouldn't recommend you just barge in to /pol/ to see for yourself, it takes a very special sort of... "tolerance"

I think you're misunderstanding my point which is "never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity". The adminship of reddit is not feminist and falls along the same demographics as reddit in general, if there's anything I'd expect to be censored on purpose it's the anti-gamersgate crowd.

Speaking of which, that entire thing was bull****.

Gamergate is directly aligned against all the huge advertisers like gawker and other leftist media. While Reddit may not be pro feminist, they are pro greed.

And I disagree about gamergate being bull****. I don't appreciate every little thing that's come of it, but overall gaming journalism has had a vicegrip on gamers for years and steadily hurting our games. Anything that challenges that lunacy and corruption is good in my book.

In the end though, I agree with you that both sites have their faults. I am just perhaps a little more accepting (or perhaps pessimistic?) of the fact that people are a little scummy on the inside. I just feel like refusing to let them be scum also hinders their ability to eventually do the right thing and come to the right conclusion.

And I must admit, I have honestly defended /pol/ more than I can really justify to myself on a tangent, so I hope you forgive me if I choose not to reply to a future response. I understand that may be immature of me but I'm not actually so fond of /pol/ to keep typing out these long responses. I hope you can respect that as I have your posts and your contributions to the smash community.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You seem to be under the impression the issue is more the words themselves rather than the views likely connected to those who use them. Those perceived sterotypical views don't flip just because the words do.


Again, my issue is not that you are pointing out stereotypes, but rather speaking against racism/classism yet perpetuating it with the same breath. I aim to be neutral as I simply cannot partake in these discussions when they become emotional, so please take no offense when I accuse you of a bit of "doublethink" here.

You're misunderstanding, these are still minority positions, but they're the most common biases within that group. As such they tend to flourish in environments which are opposed to political correctness and that group is majority (hence why I generally argue that what is qualified as political correctness is usually just being a decent human being). This is especially true in environments given to second opinion bias (for example, if one believes they're smarter then the sheep).

Still not the majority position for any of these things, but loud enough that it will organize into communities and due to level of commitment versus an uncaring majority you'll find it fairly often in cross-community areas.

It's not a stereotype, it's a recognition of how a minority bias can get an inordinate amount of pull on sites like this, there's a reason why reddit is a primary recruiting venue for stormfront.

These are both woefully true points. But as you said, it's common among every field, and those among the arts, humanities, social sciences, etc are just as guilty of it. It's not a white or cis thing so I'm not sure why you attributed it to them.

They're not, it's not that misinformation doesn't come into those fields, it's that there's different attitudes which cause it, which results in slightly different misinformation. There's a reason why this attitude of "every other field is doing it wrong" is particularly famous in physicists. To be fair, laywers aren't STEM and have it too.

I'd suggest one shouldn't base their experiences based on the extremes. /pol/ is far from only the raiders, the racists, the misogynists, anymore than smashboards is. But I wouldn't recommend you just barge in to /pol/ to see for yourself, it takes a very special sort of... "tolerance"

No thanks, the leaks into reddit is more then I can handle.

Gamergate is directly aligned against all the huge advertisers like gawker and other leftist media. While Reddit may not be pro feminist, they are pro greed.

Not... really. The closest reddit goes to pro greed is bowing to lawyers.

And I disagree about gamergate being bull****. I don't appreciate every little thing that's come of it, but overall gaming journalism has had a vicegrip on gamers for years and steadily hurting our games. Anything that challenges that lunacy and corruption is good in my book.

And I think that it's ignoring the large scale corrupting of major outlets with large corperations in favor of finding fault in innocuous indy relationships because the movement needed an excuse to say "we're not misogynists" when it came to light that the most basic research would've shown that there was no review for depression quest.

In the end though, I agree with you that both sites have their faults. I am just perhaps a little more accepting (or perhaps pessimistic?) of the fact that people are a little scummy on the inside. I just feel like refusing to let them be scum also hinders their ability to eventually do the right thing and come to the right conclusion.

Haha, I more don't like their views at the end of the day.

And I must admit, I have honestly defended /pol/ more than I can really justify to myself on a tangent, so I hope you forgive me if I choose not to reply to a future response. I understand that may be immature of me but I'm not actually so fond of /pol/ to keep typing out these long responses. I hope you can respect that as I have your posts and your contributions to the smash community.

Haha it's fine. These discussions are at the end of the day, entertainment. Unless you're of this bent.

 

[AfungusAmongus]

Several tables in here demonstrate what I was referring to.

Clearly blacks above all others are incarcerated more often and for longer periods of time. Something I just learned from this study, Female college students are more likely to have longer sentences than male college students. Granted this study focused on demographics between 1998 and 2002 (which is why I hate statistics to begin with, it's dead information), but that's not to say it's improved any.

"And unexplained differences in the sentencing of women compared to men are greater than any unexplained differences in the sentencing of different racial and ethnic groups"

Read pages 120-130, which clearly show that men are incarcerated more often and for longer periods of time even than blacks, proving my point.

 

[Chinaux]

Reddit leans the same way politically and quite frankly isn't a "nice enviroment". SRS is a tiny minority relative to the community as a whole.

My point is reddit is a notoriously racist, misogynistic, and generally unfriendly area. /pol/ is a far more extreme version, so you're downplaying it extremely.

Nah dude, they're totally cool about feminism

Spoiler

• Riding to work on my exact replica of the Triumph Bonneville Motorcycle that Steve McQueen used to jump the barbed wire in The Great Escape, erection already growing so early in the day, excited by the trail of female oppression im leaving in my wake.
  
  
• Arrive at work and remove my helmet, sporting a 5 o'clock shadow at 9am
  
  
• Walk into the office with a full erection and beat my chest to signify my arrival, all the men in the office jump on their tables and reciprocate while the women cower at their workstations, quivering at this display of chauvinism.
  
  
• Hear a woman struggling with something, my engorged penis swings in the direction of the noise and pulls me towards its source.
  
  
• I glide up behind her and press my penis into her back, all the men in the office begin grunting.
  
  
• She turns around holding a jar she is struggling to open
  
  
• "P-p-please James...I...-"
  
  
• I raise my hand to her face to signify its my turn to start speaking.
  
  
• She is instantly pregnant.
  
  
• 3 women faint and the men are now engaged in a masturbatory fury, losing control over the impending **** we are all about to witness. Semen starts flying from all corners of the room.
  
  
• I take the jar into my hand, maintaining eye contact throughout.
  
  
• The office goes silent and the remaining conscious women all move into a corner together and start praying silently, horrified by this blatant misogynist attack on this once strong, independent woman.
  
  
• Suddenly a brave trans- autistic, quad gender, hyper liberal, multi- race, LGBT feminist pulls forward on her mobility scooter and speaks up: "STOP ****** HER STOP RAP-"
  
  
• "POP"
  
  
• The sound of the jar opening causes every female of every species of animal within a 15 mile sphere of patriarchal influence to become instantly pregnant with quintuplet, exact genetic hybrids of Sean Connery and a Silver back Gorilla.
  
  
• All the men of the office run out into the world, tripping over each others gigantic penis' and begin holding doors open, lighting cigarettes with matches lit on their stubble and throwing their coats over puddles all for women, triggering the start of the patriarchal revolution.
  
  
• I hand the jar back to this once proud woman, the **** almost complete.
  
  
• "T-t-thanks....J-J-James..."
  
  
• There's only one thing left to say.
  
  
• "IT..."
  
  
• Pakistan invades India. Iran invades Israel. Islam declared world religion.
  
  
• "WAS..."
  
  
• Arnold Schwarzenegger begins furiously masturbating in California and just as he climaxes he lays face down and the force of his ejaculation causes him to fly across America to Washington DC, through the window of the White House, killing Obama instantly.
  
  
• Schwarzenegger claims the presidency. Socialised gym memberships for all. Shaving becomes illegal.
  
  
• "MY..."
  
  
• Steve McQueen, Theodore Roosevelt and King Leonidas come back from the dead and assume their final form and are picked up by King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia in his giant, solid gold, penis shaped helicopter. This union complete, they become the four horsemen of the patriocolypse and fly around the world spreading testosterone and oppression in their wake, all who view the helicopter instantly grow full beards and thick chest hair.
  
  
• "PRIVILEGE"
  
  
• The polar ice caps melt, Atlantis revealed beneath Greenland. Africa's Rift Valley begins to tear apart.
  
  
• Gaben releases Half- life 3, its a perfect blend of Half Life, Portal and Left4Dead.
  
  
• Horrified by the Patriarchal revolution, the feminists of the world unite and march on Washington DC only to be met by Clint Eastwood and Hugh Jackman riding their own penis' into battle, leading 300,000 Sean Connery-Silver back Gorilla hybrids pole vaulting down the street on their 12 foot long erect penis' in perfect unison, beating their chests as they bound through the air, wearing the final uniform for the final solution to the matriarchal problem designed by Hugo Boss with diamond penis' for buttons that are too big for the vagina shaped button holes so the first time it is is worn it tears the button holes permanently.
  
  
• At the sight of this epic vision of pure masculinity, the feminists all orgasm in unison and a raging torrent of vaginal juices floods the city. The force of the orgasm turns some women inside out and causes every volcano on the planet to erupt simultaneously.
  
  
• President Schwarzenegger runs out of the White house with Vladimir Putin and they begin bench pressing as many of the writhing, orgasming, females bodies as possible, the 300,000 Sean Silver Connery Backs surround them and beat their chests.
  
  
• Helicopter news crews beam the revolution all over the world, every woman on the planet becomes pregnant and they voluntarily start wearing burqas and veils to cover themselves.
  
  
• As all this is happening the sky goes black, its planet Nibiru, fabled home of legendary patriarchs, completing its 10,000 year cycle.
  
  
• Nibiru stops over the city.
  
  
• A giant, diamond, erect penis escalator with solid gold hand rails emerges from the planet and lands at my feet.
  
  
• My time has come.
  
  
• I step onto the escalator and begin my ascension.
  
  
• As i reach the top i am met by Alexander the great and Genghis Khan, both sporting huge erections.
  
  
• I grab their erections and they pull me onto the planet.
  
  
• I turn to take one last look at earth, the revolution complete.
  
  
• The four horsemen of the patriocolypse are standing in King Abdullhas helicopter, saluting me, manly tears falling down their faces, all with 9 mile long and 1 mile wide erections causing 4 separate total, solar, erectile eclipses across four different latitudes of the earth.
  
  
• Bearded Silver back Connerys now outnumber original humans, bounding across the planet performing acts of chivalry as they chant "ooo ooo it was my privilege ooo ooo".
  
  
• Tsunamis tear across the ocean, destroying every coastal city, Africa is now two continents, plant life begins to die out as the sun begins to be blocked out by the clouds of smoke from the volcanoes, India and Israel destroyed by nuclear winter, feminism eradicated.
  
  
• The world is in safe hands.
  
  
• I shout "SEE YOU IN 10,000 YEARS......bros" and raise my fist into the air, shadowed by my now permanent erection.
  
  
• Nibiru begins to move away from earth, the giant diamond and gold penis escalator retracts into the planet.
  
  
• Everything went better than expected.
  
  
• N-no homo...

 

[OmegaSorin]

@Thor I read every post of yours with an epic Chris Hemmingsworth voice.

I have no real opinion that I wish to state on this matter.

I've always had the idea that if a woman attacks me, I'll attack back, a slap is okay, but intentionally moving to harm me is something else entirely.

Thats pretty much it, so I'm on the stance of @ Claire Diviner on this one.

I don't know enough about feminism to really care about it, only what I've seen on the news and other websites, which are hardly good sources to cite from.

 

[FirestormNeos]

No group is safe from bad apples, backstabbers, straw wo/men, double agents and/or saboteurs looking to ruin the group's image. Feminism and the MRA are no exceptions to this rule.

Now that my not-being-on-either-side is made apparent, I'll express my idea and leave; I would suggest that a person be able to defend themselves to the extent they're willing to defend themselves. I don't care if they're a man, woman, or rainbow-colored fruit bat.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Either way, raising a child without both parents is absolutely disastrous for their future prospects.

Wait, am I supposed to be taking that article seriously?

 

[LarsINTJ]

Wait, am I supposed to be taking that article seriously?

Not an argument.

 

[Chinaux]

Not an argument.

gee you sure contributed to that lack of contribution

 

[FirestormNeos]

Not an argument.

 

[LarsINTJ]

You would think a lack of argumentation is obvious for most people, but it really isn't. We're not the only ones viewing this thread.

 

[FirestormNeos]

You would think a lack of argumentation is obvious for most people, but it really isn't. We're not the only ones viewing this thread.

It takes one person and one moron to derail a thread. One moron who doesn't want to contribute (that would be me), and one person who is continuously acting as though said moron is trying to contribute and is just doing badly (which would be you).

 

[EZdelFresco]

According to society, a woman can go upside my head with a 2x4 but if I even pretend that I'm gonna hit her back then I'm a punk. If I don't hit her back and I get rekt, I'm also a punk. It's harder to be a man than people realize.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Perhaps everyone wants to get rid of double standards, but fear that there are double standards they are unaware of that are the only reason they continue to go about their lives.

i like to consider myself a support egalitarian humanism, and it really makes me sad to see people focusing on a single issue like gender issues as sopposed to other issues that encompass gender issues.

some people make the argument that only one thing can be fought for at a time, but i disagree. even if that were true, aren't racial genocides deserving to have more priority taken over the way some japanese nerd draws samus in a a latex suit?? lol, just my 2 cents.

 

[Sucumbio]

What young males think about hitting young females (you'll have to load the page, then click the video to begin it, because it cannot be embedded in this post.

My thoughts...

"Weak men put their hands on women for any reason!"

The difficulty with the OP's quoted statement (which essentially means men who hit women are inferior to men who do not) lies in its total simplicity. It seeks to uphold axiomatically that a man must NEVER hit a women under any circumstances, because women are inferior to men. Therefore the idea of gender equality is dissolved. Men and women cannot ever be equal, because a man must never hit a woman, and those that do are lesser males. This stance therefore also serves to reinforce typical Male gender roles/expectations.

We have argued (if not unanimously) that it IS okay to hit a woman, under some circumstances, and therefore men and women -are- equals (in this regard, anyway). So basically, our conclusion goes against what these children have adopted as "right." Now I will grant that some of the kids at least said it gender neutrally, but there were plenty of young boys who immediately assumed the role of "protector" and though were just as disgusted by the idea as the other boys, it seemed the source of disgust came from a different place than with the other participants. The former comes from a level of understanding that sees past gender EVEN in the face of Gender Role Reinforcement (the camera man asking them to "caress" the girl, which on a side note I found a bit iffy, but w/e), whereas the other is rooted IN gender roles, and could arguably have been played up by the fact that their role as Heteronormative Male was being reinforced from the onset of the encounter (what do you think of this girl? pretty eyes, nice hair, etc.).

Therefore it seems to me that the point of the video, which was to convince us that boys in their innocence already believe it's wrong to hit a woman (and that's a good thing), is failed. It IS a good thing these boys do not want to hit girls. It's a bad thing as to why they believe that's true. SO then, we face the outcome. How does one proceed, in this case? Do we just, let it go and face the music when they're adults? I think it's too late by then. To drive the absolute impulse from a person who is indoctrinated from day one, nah that could take years of effort and it still may not actually work (we can say we're changed people but are we really?).

Then again it could just be me. I dislike oaths. "I'm a real man, I'd never hit a woman." See, cause what happens if you do? I guess it's the woman's fault, then? She must have been SO.... EVIL! He was made undone, his pristine record, his indestructible moral (ego) fortitude which allowed him to boast "I don't hit women," now crumbled to dust in the wake of this. this... w-o-m-a-n.

 

[LightlyToasted]

ignoring context, reliable methods of analysis, etc.

Finally (and this is unfortunately common among every field) you get a lot of hero worship of personalities relevant in STEM fields, which is great when they're speaking in their fields, but a problem when say, an astrophysicist is talking about history.

I reddit as well and one thing that does piss me off are the number of people there that likely want to literally suck Bill Nye's metaphorical phallus because he was such a genius and "one of their childhood icons"

And ol scumy pretty much summed up what needed to be said with never hitting a woman and conflicting gender roles. That video he linked went very viral, and while its good for the potential attention for abuse help it may bring, the real issue in an abusive relationship isn't a women being beat up by a man ect. It's someone in a position of power(which often is a man because of physical dominance) mistreating someone and abusing who is in a position of weakness and cannot stop it for whatever reason.(which more often than not is a women because of they are typically weaker.)

Though there is much more to it than just strength and physical capabilities. Men and Women ARE different in many way physically and mentally(chemically, which is physical but w/e), as are EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING. But neither one should necessarily have more rights to anything than the other, and the differences should be celebrated, not abused; while also creating equal opportunities!

 

[FirestormNeos]

I reddit as well and one thing that does piss me off are the number of people there that likely want to literally suck Bill Nye's metaphorical phallus because he was such a genius and "one of their childhood icons"

And ol scumy pretty much summed up what needed to be said with never hitting a woman and conflicting gender roles. That video he linked went very viral, and while its good for the potential attention for abuse help it may bring, the real issue in an abusive relationship isn't a women being beat up by a man ect. It's someone in a position of power(which often is a man because of physical dominance) mistreating someone and abusing who is in a position of weakness and cannot stop it for whatever reason.(which more often than not is a women because of they are typically weaker.)

Though there is much more to it than just strength and physical capabilities. Men and Women ARE different in many way physically and mentally(chemically, which is physical but w/e), as are EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING. But neither one should necessarily have more rights to anything than the other, and the differences should be celebrated, not abused; while also creating equal opportunities!

"All power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." ~Can't remember who said it first.

 

[Dr. Doctor]

I used to be a regular Tumblr user, but when my feed started getting filled up with the word "cis," misandry, racism, and otherkin, I had to stop. And now that this feminism is taking on gaming with the warzone that is #gamergate, I think that this "feminism" is actively destroying the progress any feminist movement has made.

 

[Claire Diviner]

It doesn't help that Gamergate targets non-extremist feminists as well. They seem to be anti-women and anti-transgender among other things. That being said, what are we debating exactly?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Have you ever heard of the term "nutpicking"? It's basically a logical fallacy where you search a group for their most fanatical, insane members (or, failing that, look for anything "insane" that you can quote-mine) and point to them as meaningful representatives of the whole group. For example, acting like this woman is somehow representative of the movement as a whole. Don't get me wrong, people like this do themselves no favors, but acting like they're somehow representative is kind of ridiculous.

And what do you mean, "Thid wave 'Tumblr' Feminism"? The concept of third-wave feminism dates back to the 90s, and is phenomenally broad. Not to mention that you don't elaborate on the examples you give.

In particular, your dismissive attitude of "cis" - I'm sorry, what should we call individuals who are not trans? "Normal"? That's exactly the kind of loaded, polarizing language that we should be fighting against. Cisgendered people are more common, but referring to them as normal inherently paints transgendered people as "not normal", with all of the unfortunately loaded language that comes with that. It's a lot like how we don't refer to people as "homosexual" or "normal" - same thing. This is about not being a **** with the way you speak and act, and not letting loaded language lead the conversation.

What's more, feminists are not "taking on gaming" in gamergate. What happened was that some feminists raised some (admittedly hit-or-miss) criticism of the way women are portrayed in gaming, and the internet essentially threw a ****fit. There are real issues of misogyny and female portrayal both within video games and within video gaming communities, and pointing a spotlight on them is not a bad thing, even if Sarkeesian occasionally happens to be talking out of her ass. But the response to this was a directed hate campaign against people like her, Zoe Quinn, and others, stemming essentially from 4chan with the intent of basically ruining their lives. This was the birthplace of gamergate - an attempt to ruin one woman's life because she had the gall to speak up about women in gaming and to cheat on her boyfriend, and Quinn has the screenshots to prove it. Everything else followed afterwards, and most of it was misinformed. Certainly a lot of it was misogynistic.

So I'd appreciate it if you expanded on what you're talking about. I don't know what you mean by "Tumblr feminists". It's not really a coherent group, it's a snarl word. It's not meant to denote any actual belief, it's meant to dismiss a group of people out of hand. What do Tumblr feminists believe? What do they act on? What demarcates them as such? There isn't really a debate here until you clarify what you're talking about.

 

[Grass]

Have you ever heard of the term "nutpicking"? It's basically a logical fallacy where you search a group for their most fanatical, insane members (or, failing that, look for anything "insane" that you can quote-mine) and point to them as meaningful representatives of the whole group. For example, acting like this woman is somehow representative of the movement as a whole. Don't get me wrong, people like this do themselves no favors, but acting like they're somehow representative is kind of ridiculous.

first off the term is "nitpicking" and second of all, nitpicking is not a logical fallacy. I love how people are literally throwing this word around like they know what it really means. And feminism isn't some fanatical group of miscreants devoted to women's rights...at least not anymore. Back in the 50s there were women that were for feminism but that was a time when men and women weren't getting equal pay, couldn't go out by themselves so women's freedom was necessary. Somewhere along the lines, this became synonymous with the word "man hater", which couldn't be farther from the truth. I'm not sure exactly how our culture deviated so far between the lines, but the current mainstream definition of women's rights is not what it used to be.

And what do you mean, "Thid wave 'Tumblr' Feminism"? The concept of third-wave feminism dates back to the 90s, and is phenomenally broad. Not to mention that you don't elaborate on the examples you give.

Tumblr has had a history of inaccurate truths and fallacies based on poor research and weak facts. This is a given. I'm not sure what the whole "third wave" is, but if it's anything like the stuff I've seen on tumblr then lol.

In particular, your dismissive attitude of "cis" - I'm sorry, what should we call individuals who are not trans? "Normal"? That's exactly the kind of loaded, polarizing language that we should be fighting against. Cisgendered people are more common, but referring to them as normal inherently paints transgendered people as "not normal", with all of the unfortunately loaded language that comes with that. It's a lot like how we don't refer to people as "homosexual" or "normal" - same thing. This is about not being a **** with the way you speak and act, and not letting loaded language lead the conversation.

"Cisgender" is not a word boys and girls. Please grow up and learn to use real words like homosexual or bisexual.

What's more, feminists are not "taking on gaming" in gamergate. What happened was that some feminists raised some (admittedly hit-or-miss) criticism of the way women are portrayed in gaming, and the internet essentially threw a ****fit. There are real issues of misogyny and female portrayal both within video games and within video gaming communities, and pointing a spotlight on them is not a bad thing, even if Sarkeesian occasionally happens to be talking out of her ***. But the response to this was a directed hate campaign against people like her, Zoe Quinn, and others, stemming essentially from 4chan with the intent of basically ruining their lives. This was the birthplace of gamergate - an attempt to ruin one woman's life because she had the gall to speak up about women in gaming and to cheat on her boyfriend, and Quinn has the screenshots to prove it. Everything else followed afterwards, and most of it was misinformed. Certainly a lot of it was misogynistic.

Let's be honest, women have never truly been involved in gaming over the years. They treat it as some sort of dirty animal that the boys dragged home. I am happy that more women are coming into the gaming world and being recognized for their abilities in gaming. However, this is still a fairly small minority when you look at the big picture.

So I'd appreciate it if you expanded on what you're talking about. I don't know what you mean by "Tumblr feminists". It's not really a coherent group, it's a snarl word. It's not meant to denote any actual belief, it's meant to dismiss a group of people out of hand. What do Tumblr feminists believe? What do they act on? What demarcates them as such? There isn't really a debate here until you clarify what you're talking about.

/rant What you believe in has literally nothing to do with the rest of the world. I actually recently talked about "belief" and what it means for everyone else. It's on my youtube page under the title GG Gaming episode 4. But shameless self promotion aside, belief is nothing more than your opinion. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "what they act on" because from where I see it, it's just a bunch of teenagers trying to seem relevant to the rest of the world.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

first off the term is "nitpicking" and second of all, nitpicking is not a logical fallacy. I love how people are literally throwing this word around like they know what it really means.

No, nutpicking is not nitpicking. It's the art of finding a handful of lunatics espousing a group's message and using them to tar the group as a whole. For example, if you're against political action against global warming, you could nutpick some random blog that espouses a communistic world government to deal with the issue and use that to proclaim "all those climatologists are socialists!" Fun fact: this actually happens.

And feminism isn't some fanatical group of miscreants devoted to women's rights...at least not anymore. Back in the 50s there were women that were for feminism but that was a time when men and women weren't getting equal pay, couldn't go out by themselves so women's freedom was necessary. Somewhere along the lines, this became synonymous with the word "man hater", which couldn't be farther from the truth. I'm not sure exactly how our culture deviated so far between the lines, but the current mainstream definition of women's rights is not what it used to be.

Yes, synonymizing feminism with "man hater" is indeed far from the truth. You'll find a few self-ascribed feminists who are, in fact, heavily misandristic. Andrea Dworkin being the classical example. But you cannot judge the larger movement by a handful of bad apples. By and large, feminism really is about equality. It's no longer fanatical because we've made huge strides in realizing how ingrained sexism is to our culture and heritage, and that we should do something about it. Not that you should ask Phyllis Schafly about it, mind you.

Tumblr has had a history of inaccurate truths and fallacies based on poor research and weak facts. This is a given. I'm not sure what the whole "third wave" is, but if it's anything like the stuff I've seen on tumblr then lol.

Wikipedia might help. There's quite a lot to it and it's a fairly disparate group. Hell, many have even complained about the designation of "third wave". Boiling that down to "a handful of morons on Tumblr" is really kinda silly.

"Cisgender" is not a word boys and girls. Please grow up and learn to use real words like homosexual or bisexual.

Cisgendered/Transgendered has nothing to do with homosexual/heterosexual. Cisgendered individuals have genders that match up with their biological sexes; Transgendered to not. This has nothing to do with what sex or gender they are attracted to.

Let's be honest, women have never truly been involved in gaming over the years. They treat it as some sort of dirty animal that the boys dragged home. I am happy that more women are coming into the gaming world and being recognized for their abilities in gaming. However, this is still a fairly small minority when you look at the big picture.

I wonder why women saw gaming as a "boys-only" club for a while. Surely it has nothing to do with the rampant misogyny involved in the design and play of games? Things like this?

Or this where sexual harassment is apparently "part of the culture"? Or the numerous female smashers I've heard of (and keep in mind - there aren't that many female smashers) who've complained of sexual harassment? Or try jumping on CoD as a girl and turning on voicechat. Or convince your SO or one of your female friends to do so. My girlfriend is coming with me to her first large out-of-town tournament, and she's actually terrified of going on the stream at all because she's seen the abuse hurled at women at tournaments like that. Especially if they're not good at the game, or not good-looking.

/rant What you believe in has literally nothing to do with the rest of the world. I actually recently talked about "belief" and what it means for everyone else. It's on my youtube page under the title GG Gaming episode 4. But shameless self promotion aside, belief is nothing more than your opinion. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "what they act on" because from where I see it, it's just a bunch of teenagers trying to seem relevant to the rest of the world.

What you believe informs your actions.

 

[Grass]

Cisgendered/Transgendered has nothing to do with homosexual/heterosexual. Cisgendered individuals have genders that match up with their biological sexes; Transgendered to not. This has nothing to do with what sex or gender they are attracted to.

That doesn't really stop cisgender from not actually being a word. I honestly didn't mean to connect that word with homo/gay/bi/asexual or whatever. I'm just saying flat out that it's not a word.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That doesn't really stop cisgender from not actually being a word. I honestly didn't mean to connect that word with homo/gay/bi/asexual or whatever. I'm just saying flat out that it's not a word.

That's a bizarre argument. "Cisgender" has been in use since the 90s and in general parlance a lot for the last few years. It's a useful "neutral" description, has a clear, well-defined meaning, and if you use it, most people will know exactly what you mean.

 

[Nino Rybicki]

I do agree that certain video games do have issues with portrayal of women, but some games are more guilty of it than others. Overall, Nintendo's pretty fair with gender representation. They have plenty of female characters, both good and evil ones, plenty of them wear real clothes, and there's a lot of games that let you choose your gender. What annoys me is when the only girls in a series are either the girlfriends or sisters of the male leads.

Many people's image of a "typical gamer" is that of a white (or Asian), straight, single, college-aged, nonreligious, pessimistic, snarky male, and it's sad that even some of the companies seem to think so.

Gamergate unleashed a rift between male and female gamers, although I think the majority of women complaining in Gamergate are non-gamers (or at least non-console players). Sadly, there is a belief held by many that girls can't be gamers. Also, notice that many gaming websites will not review games specifically aimed at girls. The few that do generally give snarky, sarcastic reviews, which makes it hard to tell whether the games really are that bad or they're just dismissed for being girly.

That being said, I think Sarkeesian is nitpicking and she does strike me as a social justice warrior.

 

[Grass]

That's a bizarre argument. "Cisgender" has been in use since the 90s and in general parlance a lot for the last few years. It's a useful "neutral" description, has a clear, well-defined meaning, and if you use it, most people will know exactly what you mean.

in that case, I concede. I genuinely thought this was some bs that tumblr made up. Shows what I know. :/

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That being said, I think Sarkeesian is nitpicking and she does strike me as a social justice warrior.

+1. Sarkeesian has said some very stupid things in the past. She's also not particularly representative of much of feminism - she represents a small niche, a very sex-negative set that is largely not representative of what many feminists think about sex in general. Also, her thesis is hella dumb.

in that case, I concede. I genuinely thought this was some bs that tumblr made up. Shows what I know. :/

I'll tell you this much - Tumblr hasn't done it any favors. :/

 

[NotaSkeleton]

Many people's image of a "typical gamer" is that of a white (or Asian), straight, single, college-aged, nonreligious, pessimistic, snarky male, and it's sad that even some of the companies seem to think so.

Maybe that's because the main demographic, the typical gamer, is a white, straight, single, college-aged, nonreligious, pessimistic, snarky male? If that's the case, what's wrong with targeting that specific audience? It seems to work really well so far.
Games are not something people are entitled to. Developers are not forced to pander to minorities. They never should be. Games are products and if you don't like a game because the main character is white, buy another game. It's that simple. There are so many games out there, some of them are bound to fit your tastes perfectly, if only you bother to look.
In the end, money talks. Who buys the most games? Straight men in their 20s. Naturally, as a developer, you want to make games appealing to that audience.
Men and boys have always been the main consumers of video games. If you would like to see this pattern change, start buying more games that target a different audience.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Maybe that's because the main demographic, the typical gamer, is a white, straight, single, college-aged, nonreligious, pessimistic, snarky male? If that's the case, what's wrong with targeting that specific audience? It seems to work really well so far.
Games are not something people are entitled to. Developers are not forced to pander to minorities. They never should be. Games are products and if you don't like a game because the main character is white, buy another game. It's that simple. There are so many games out there, some of them are bound to fit your tastes perfectly, if only you bother to look.
In the end, money talks. Who buys the most games? Straight men in their 20s. Naturally, as a developer, you want to make games appealing to that audience.
Men and boys have always been the main consumers of video games. If you would like to see this pattern change, start buying more games that target a different audience.

Question. Do you think certain games would sell better if they didn't pander to one demographic to the exclusion of all others? I mean, seriously, it's kind of ridiculous. I'm not sure if "most" is accurate, but a lot of the time when you have a female protagonist, they're eye candy, and act like it as well. They pose like they're being photographed for a gravure magazine. They dress like they just found their way off the set of "Bound ******* XVI". If you're a girl and you're into fighting games, take a look at some of the more famous female characters - Ivy, Mai, Cammy, Orchid... Those aren't characters, they're melons on sticks.

Yeah, it's gotten better, but "why don't women buy games" isn't exactly as straightforward as "they just don't". There are serious issues with female representation in video gaming that drive women away. I mean, here's the cover for Remember Me, a game with a strong, empowered female protagonist:

Notice what's front and center in the picture? Not her face. Not the gameplay. Her ass. It's what the eye is immediately drawn to on the picture. And this happens all the time. Oh yeah, and there's a nasty little backstory there as well.

Also, she's very much traditionally attractive. Just like every other woman in gaming. No, seriously. Since that video came out, I can name only one more that comes to mind - Helga from Loadout, and in that case, it was played for laughs.

Misogyny in the games industry is very real and a serious problem when it comes to marketing to demographics other than your vaunted white straight single college-age male. It's also a problem when it comes to recruiting women to design games. After Gamergate, it's entirely reasonable to think that many women will look at the industry and think, "I don't need to deal with that ****."

Nobody is saying "video games need to change". The argument is mostly, "Hey, wouldn't it be nice if you treated women like actual human beings in your games? Oh, and it'll probably get more women buying your product because they don't feel alienated by it." And money talks. More and more women are getting into gaming. It's no longer a boys club. There's a damn good reason to deal with these problems - your own bottom line.

And that's just on the development end. What about the player end? Like I said, try just being female on an FGC stream, or CoD voicechat, or similar environments. It ain't pretty. That needs to change.

TL;DR:

Who buys the most games? Straight men in their 20s.

I wonder why that is. Oh wait, no I don't.

 

[Grass]

See, I get where @ NotaSkeleton is coming from. And while I realize that women have never really been represented well in games, I'd like to point out the fact that most developers are males. I'm not trying to support this, mind you, but I think as far as developers are concerned. We should hire more female developers and have some females on the design team for games. I think this is a sociological issue when it comes to portrayal of men and women and while I realize, it's very likely this kind of thing will never go away, I think we need some balance between bad portrayal of women and overly positive portrayal. Just some sort of common ground.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, I've heard that the lack of female game devs is a problem. Although the way the industry is structured and the existing representation of them in video games doesn't help fix that problem very much. Virtually all of computer science started as mostly a "boy's club", and gaming was no different. By the time women really got on board, we had graphics good enough to render boobies, and the rest is history. :/

 

[NotaSkeleton]

Men make games that they'd enjoy. Surprising literally nobody. Also, when you say ''We should hire more female developers'' who are you talking about? Triple A studios? Doubt it. They always play it as safe as possible, which means catering to the largest consumer base. I think females who want more females in video games should take the initiative themselves. Indie games are very popular and relatively cheap to make. If you want something done, you'll have to do it yourself. You can not sit around and wait for an industry as large as that of video games to just turn a 4 decades strong system around to cater to a different audience in hope that it somehow pays off.
To try and get back and focus on the topic, there's a trend going on in the feminist movement that all women are victims of an oppressive system. Whatever bad happens to you, it happens because you are a woman. Perhaps that is why we don't see many women aspiring to become video game developers. They are led to believe that it is hopeless and indeed a boy's only club, when that simply is not true. There is nothing stopping anyone from learning how to program a video game of their own and selling it.