• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
His Fair does 15%...lasts a while doing 13%...combos into itself. All of his other aerials are equally stupid in their own ways. Some other parts of his moveset are equally stupid in their own ways. Somehow, nothing is as stupid as Shoryu. Ryu has a lot of issues keeping him balanced (meaning not OP) so I don't complain anymore; I was just issuing some reminders that this is among the top overall frame data ever seen in Smash 4 and even previous Smash.

Well unfortunately there isn't really much to talk about when it comes to Marth right now, which is why the past few pages have been spent talking about other characters.

Shoryu is overtuned and should probably be nerfed, but I would be pretty sad if they did nerf it. I'm really sure how to nerf it in a way that wouldn't make it kill too late on heavy weights and super heavy weights.
Maybe if rage was nerfed, my number one wish for an entire year. Then we wouldn't see 50 or 60% deaths from frame 1 invincible - 12 frames of landing lag - confirming into from the entire moveset - moves.

.

You're right EL that there are few competent Ryus; well said. My opinion is that he really isn't a easy character...at all.
 

FallenHero

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2015
Messages
641
Location
Bronx, New York
If you nerf shoryu Ryu drops two tiers. There is no way around it.

Which is fine, tho I would def drop the game if Ryu got worse.
Yeah probably. I hope that they don't ever nerf shoryu, but it will probably happen eventually. I am fine if they nerf some of his other moves like fair which is just ridiculously strong for how good it's frame data is and that it can combo into itself.

Maybe if rage was nerfed, my number one wish for an entire year. Then we wouldn't see 50 or 60% deaths from frame 1 invincible - 12 frames of landing lag - confirming into from the entire moveset - moves.
Yeah I feel like if rage was removed from the game and true shoryu had a lot more landing lag it would not be that overtuned anymore. I'm not sure if removing the one frame of invincibility would really change much, but it definitely needs at least 18 frames of landing lag. I've been able to just hit someone with a true shoryu right after missing one because they tried to go for a kill move.

You're right EL that there are few competent Ryus; well said. My opinion is that he really isn't a easy character...at all.
I like to think I'm one of these competent Ryu players. I can consistently do all of his special inputs, cancels, and setups. Wish I could get some footage of me playing Ryu on a good day so that people could see whether or not I really am a good Ryu player or not. The only thing I have been trying to do more with Ryu lately that I really should have been doing for a long time is walking.
 
Last edited:

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
Yeah probably. I hope that they don't ever nerf shoryu, but it will probably happen eventually. I am fine if they nerf some of his other moves like fair which is just ridiculously strong for how good it's frame data is and that it can combo into itself.



Yeah I feel like if rage was removed from the game and true shoryu had a lot more landing lag it would not be that overtuned anymore. I'm not sure if removing the one frame of invincibility would really change much, but it definitely needs at least 18 frames of landing lag. I've been able to just hit someone with a true shoryu right after missing one because they tried to go for a kill move.



I like to think I'm one of these competent Ryu players. I can consistently do all of his special inputs, cancels, and setups. Wish I could get some footage of me playing Ryu on a good day so that people could see whether or not I really am a good Ryu player or not. The only thing I have been trying to do more with Ryu lately that I really should have been doing for a long time is walking.
While it's great that you are that dedicated with him, there are many Ryu's like that. What I meant by competent is competence when competing at top level play.
 

Murlough

Euphoria
Joined
May 2, 2015
Messages
2,708
Location
Tennessee
NNID
Murl0ugh
3DS FC
4828-8253-7746
How does Marth do against DK? The match-up thread is near useless for finding information so I'm posting here.

Some DK's say it's negative for them while others think it's positive.

What do you think?

I'm considering Marth as a secondary for dealing with DK and other character's Mewwo has troubles with but I want to be sure I'm making the right decision.
 

FallenHero

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2015
Messages
641
Location
Bronx, New York
While it's great that you are that dedicated with him, there are many Ryu's like that. What I meant by competent is competence when competing at top level play.
Oh. Yeah I really wish there were more top level Ryu players. It is hard to learn from other good Ryu players when there are so few good Ryu players that are really making it that far in tournaments or at least performing well within certain matches. I am still more dedicated to Marth though. A few months after Ryu came out, my Ryu was better, but I would say my Marth is significantly better than my Ryu now (and my Ryu has also improved a lot since then too).

I know that Pugwest is pretty much the best Marth player right now from what I have been hearing on these boards, but honestly I barely watch Smash 4 videos or streams anymore other than tech videos. I've been focusing more of my attention on other games, mostly Dark Souls 3 (I know this is not really a place to talk about that game, but I would love to just talk about how awesome this game is with you guys if any of you have played it).
 

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
How does Marth do against DK? The match-up thread is near useless for finding information so I'm posting here.

Some DK's say it's negative for them while others think it's positive.

What do you think?

I'm considering Marth as a secondary for dealing with DK and other character's Mewwo has troubles with but I want to be sure I'm making the right decision.
Marth won't help you against Mr. IntangibleLimbs, especially if since you have more experience with Mewtwo. Use Cloud for DK and other characters. He's easier to pick up as well.
 

Murlough

Euphoria
Joined
May 2, 2015
Messages
2,708
Location
Tennessee
NNID
Murl0ugh
3DS FC
4828-8253-7746
Marth won't help you against Mr. IntangibleLimbs, especially if since you have more experience with Mewtwo. Use Cloud for DK and other characters. He's easier to pick up as well.
I'm not gonna use Cloud. He is boring. Thanks for the advice though.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
I've been good in the match up since Brawl...
It's probably around even in smash4..

Trap him at the ledge or something.
Don't try to land where he can up tilt.
Be happy the window for cargo up air is less than most characters.

Spacing well is vital. But it isn't one of the most difficult characters in the cast for Marth to space against.
 
Last edited:

kj22

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
1,025
Location
Texas
NNID
openupyourworld
When are you coming back to Austin? CATI3? Are you going to team with Hakii again? Why am I asking so many questions?

Also I got fifth Sunday at a local. It's been a while since I top 8 at a local.
Yes Cati, yes teaming with Hakii, and that's not many ;b

Most important question though...is will YOU be there this time?!?
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,315
Location
Canada
It's been a pretty good month for Marth, huh?

He's had excellent tournament results these past few weeks, coupled with folks having a higher opinion of him overall

High tier prestige achieved :')
 

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
It's been a pretty good month for Marth, huh?

He's had excellent tournament results these past few weeks, coupled with folks having a higher opinion of him overall

High tier prestige achieved :')
High tier prestige absolutely not achieved. Bowser placed higher than Marth and we saw Marth struggle hard against Sheik, even in the match he did win (sure Mr. E's autopilot short-hop Nairs and near complete lack of Tilts didn't help).

Marth looks like a good doubles character though. His flaws are covered by his teammate and the general choas of doubes. His kill power is very important.
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,315
Location
Canada
High tier prestige absolutely not achieved. Bowser placed higher than Marth and we saw Marth struggle hard against Sheik, even in the match he did win (sure Mr. E's autopilot short-hop Nairs and near complete lack of Tilts didn't help).

Marth looks like a good doubles character though. His flaws are covered by his teammate and the general choas of doubes. His kill power is very important.
Perhaps high tier is out of reach at the moment but it's definitely attainable. I don't think Bowser placing higher takes away from Mr. E getting into top 8, or Fuwa's 9th placing at Sumabato 10. I genuinely think Marth is in a good position atm. Players just need to take him further from here.

He's looking a lot better than he was pre-patch, at least.
 
Last edited:

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
High tier isn't attainable in my opinion. High tier is made up of some solid characters and the differences between tiers will get larger and larger as the game goes on. We see mid-tier characters get some amazing placings in tournament all the time. We'll continue to see it. Marth barely getting into top 8 doesn't faze me in the slightest.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
27,654
Location
/人◕‿‿◕人\ FABULOUS Max!
NNID
ShayaJP
Marth is competent now.
So competent in fact that he's probably towards the best degree of neutral balance one would want in a character.
He beats just about everyone weaker than him, evenish with everyone around him, and loses to just about everyone better than him.

But Marth's results, while starting to look really solid, aren't exactly a far cry from what Ike was doing for a while before, and their mains do not have much in terms of top level player take downs to hype over. The people who've essentially never lost to Marth before in tournament, still don't ever lose to those marth players in tournament.

Ultimately our character being able to use our aerials in a way that is scary (KO power) has allowed us to be able to compete with what set of options our character was given on release - as in, they should've been doing that the entire time.
The only thing that's changed for the better is jab, which is honestly a pretty awesome move and there's more that could come from it.

But we're still cumbersome, we have fantastic footies/pokes (always have), but we still lack the neutral transitions into a real advantageous state in contrast to most other high tiers. We get nearly all of our damage through reads/traps.

Marth's range being increased to me was kind of a bad idea, it's highlighted what we're supposed to do, but it isn't stopping the likes of Sheik, Fox or Sonic shielding and punishing everything we do with impunity - we're just walling out worse characters more effectively. If we were given abilities that would correlate to our weight class now, we'd be pretty stupid and character nullifying.
The more I play Mewtwo the more I feel like that's essentially where an almost-ideal Marth's numbers, design and balance reside. He's lighter than us, more range than us in a lot of good pokes, a lot more damage than us, competitive disjoints,
and obviously the much stronger frame data for advantageous state, plus neutral winning tools with a reflector and a silly strong and safe charge projectile. He's always been a similar design and style to Marth (at least in Melee), but now he's sitting exactly where Marth would like to be. If Marth did not get the range buffs but rather the Mewtwo styled ones, he'd be high/top tier swordie who still has to compete with most character's footsie tools rather than approaching binary interactions like he does now.

Still, can see Marth doing better and better. Mr E and Pugwest are newer players in the grand scheme of things, and we probably haven't pushed the character as far as he could. Here's to hoping.
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
13,676
I guess that kind of explains why Mewtwo was such an easy pickup for me. Plus he can drag characters offstage with fair and get the spike if they foolishly airdodge. Oh memories :')
 

FallenHero

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2015
Messages
641
Location
Bronx, New York
Lately I just have been feeling so bored playing smash. I just play two or three matches and I just don't feel like playing anymore. Anyone know what to do? It is like I want to play the game but at the same time I just really don't want to.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
I got a better question.

Why do you feel the need to force yourself to play something you are obviously bored with and no longer brings you happiness?
 

FallenHero

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2015
Messages
641
Location
Bronx, New York
I got a better question.

Why do you feel the need to force yourself to play something you are obviously bored with and no longer brings you happiness?
It is not really that I feel the need to, but I just start playing feeling like I want to play and then a couple of matches later I already feel like I don't want to play. Maybe it is time I just move on from this game to something else, but I don't like the thought of just abandoning the game...I prefer watching the game now over playing it and I rarely watch Smash anyways. I'm going to take a break from the game for a few months and see if I don't get bored so quickly when I come back to it.

I think part of it might be caused by having the past 3 weeks in school being really stressful for me and on last Saturday (last time I played smash), I went to a party when I had woken up at like 5:30 PM and planning to just relax that day and then a friend texted me to go to the party. When I was at the party I was playing smash and I just got so bored so quickly, and getting to try out Overwatch for the first time at the party definitely did not help me to want to play smash for the rest of the day. The problem seems to be caused by me having so much on my mind that I just want to stop and just not have to think about anything for a while.
 
Last edited:

CURRY

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
486
Location
Smashville, USA
It is not really that I feel the need to, but I just start playing feeling like I want to play and then a couple of matches later I already feel like I don't want to play. Maybe it is time I just move on from this game to something else, but I don't like the thought of just abandoning the game...I prefer watching the game now over playing it and I rarely watch Smash anyways. I'm going to take a break from the game for a few months and see if I don't get bored so quickly when I come back to it.

I think part of it might be caused by having the past 3 weeks in school being really stressful for me and on last Saturday (last time I played smash), I went to a party when I had woken up at like 5:30 PM and planning to just relax that day and then a friend texted me to go to the party. When I was at the party I was playing smash and I just got so bored so quickly, and getting to try out Overwatch for the first time at the party definitely did not help me to want to play smash for the rest of the day. The problem seems to be caused by me having so much on my mind that I just want to stop and just not have to think about anything for a while.
I improve so much after month+ long hiatuses because I think so much more clearly afterwards.
Maybe it's because I had glaring problems in my play that I probably thought over during the time away from Smash, haha.

Anyhow, I don't really know why I improve after hiatuses, but it's put me into the mindset that taking breaks from Smash is never bad.

I don't know what a hiatus would do for you.
I mean, I'm a really, really bad player because I don't have an easily accessible group of people to play Smash with (I will soon, though! Anyone at NCSU?), so it might also have something to do with the fact that I have a TON of room to improve.
Heck, I don't have to worry about being "rusty on my tech" after hiatuses because I don't even use them while playing yet.

I never force myself not to play though... my hiatuses usually happen because Smash just fades away in my head as something fun to do. (Probably because I lose to FG players all too often...)

You're probably a much better player than me, meh.
Everyone here seems to be so much better. I'm always afraid to post, because it always doesn't look constructive.

Shaya, Vipermoon, Emblem Lord, and everyone else, I enjoy following this thread and reading your posts. <3
Oh yeah, and that guy with a Mettaton avatar.
 
Last edited:

FallenHero

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2015
Messages
641
Location
Bronx, New York
I improve so much after month+ long hiatuses because I think so much more clearly afterwards.
Maybe it's because I had glaring problems in my play that I probably thought over during the time away from Smash, haha.

Anyhow, I don't really know why I improve after hiatuses, but it's put me into the mindset that taking breaks from Smash is never bad.

I don't know what a hiatus would do for you.
I mean, I'm a really, really bad player because I don't have an easily accessible group of people to play Smash with (I will soon, though! Anyone at NCSU?), so it might also have something to do with the fact that I have a TON of room to improve.

I never force myself not to play though... my hiatuses usually happen because Smash just fades away in my head as something fun to do. (Probably because I lose to FG players all too often...)

You're probably a much better player than me, meh.
Everyone here seems to be so much better. I'm always afraid to post, because it always doesn't look constructive.

Shaya, Vipermoon, Emblem Lord, and everyone else, I enjoy following this thread and reading your posts. <3
Oh yeah, and that guy with a Mettaton picture.
Going on a hiatus does the exact same thing for me as it does with you. I was playing worse than usual last time I played, but that happened after a few matches when I just didn't feel like playing. I also don't have an easily accessible group of people to play with (I don't even own a Wii U). I never really know what to post here either so I rarely post and when I do it is just something about Smash in general rather then about Marth. I don't know how good you are, but I consider myself to be decent at the game fundamentally, but I constantly lose to one of my friends ever since he started because he has slightly better fundamentals and his tech skill is really good, meanwhile I don't get to practice tech skill on a GC controller (sorry if I sound salty cause I am not really that salty about it). I'm really not as good as I consider myself though.
 

Zano

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
4,327
Location
Corpus Christi, Texas
NNID
DuelistZano
Not that I'll ever check this again anytime soon and only really logged on to see Shaya's Plutia avi again, but at TGC this weekend I'm going all Marth and I'm in the same pool as Mr. E. Unfortunately he's on the other side of the bracket and I don't think I'll ever have to play him at any point to try getting out but I will try to make it in bracket and **** him up in dittos.

Or I'll drown like usual, that's cool too.

bye forever
 

kj22

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
1,025
Location
Texas
NNID
openupyourworld
I'm going to Marth money match him there(hopefully on stream). Hoping he accepts, unlike Pugwest at last TGC, who says he doesn't do Marth dittos and refused to ditto or even friendly me smh.

Yes those are shots
 

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
I'll tell you all right now, no other Marth can just go out and beat Void.

 

Bowserboy3

Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
1,842
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
Bowserboy3
I'll tell you all right now, no other Marth can just go out and beat Void.

I saw this on YouTube last night, and somehow knew it would end up on here before I woke up, haha!

There were so many things I took from this set. I honestly think False is the best Marth of the three (being False, Mr E and Pugwest). Mr E I feel, has done most overall with Marth in the overall lifespan of Smash 4, and Pugwest has shown us the way forward for the doubles meta, and he's done his fair share of competing.

But there's just something about False's Marth, that is super fun to watch. No other Marth plays on point as him. He utilises all of Marth's options at given points of the game. Most importantly, he uses Marth's walk far more than the others; I never see Mr E utilise Marth's walk for example.

With False announcing he's going to be using Marth more than Sheik, I'm excited to see what he can do with Marth.
 

Sir Lancelot

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
58
Posting this here since I don't know if it warrants its own thread.

D-Tilt to run up Dolphin Slash if they miss the tech is a safe kill setup at high percents, since it is hard to tech the low angle d-tilt sends you at, as shown here:
https://youtu.be/4gRDLNbI0pQ?t=757
 

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
Posting this here since I don't know if it warrants its own thread.

D-Tilt to run up Dolphin Slash if they miss the tech is a safe kill setup at high percents, since it is hard to tech the low angle d-tilt sends you at, as shown here:
https://youtu.be/4gRDLNbI0pQ?t=757
Yes I use this often. Usmash works too.

However, fast fallers will land so soon that by the time Marth gets there, they can already act from the ground. The Marth would have to read their roll/get-up/get-up attack.
 

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
And it's good to know when Dtilt puts them in tumble (to even set this up). Rage affects this heavily. You know with experience (like Uthrow kills).
 

FallenHero

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2015
Messages
641
Location
Bronx, New York
Man I remember last year you guys were sleeping on False's Marth and now you are talking about how he might be better than Mr.E and Pugwest lol.
 

Vipermoon

King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
2,661
Location
PNW
Switch FC
SW-3371-7457-0227
Man I remember last year you guys were sleeping on False's Marth and now you are talking about how he might be better than Mr.E and Pugwest lol.
Not me! I always thought he was the best.
 

HFlash

Future Physician and Sm4sher
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
620
Location
Miami, Florida
NNID
HFlash
I know it's been awhile since I've come here, but I'm wondering if any of you guys are going to CEO in Orlando, Florida this year? Would love to meet you guys and get some Marth games in.
 

Locuan

D&D Obsessed
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
4,381
Location
San Antonio, TX
I know it's been awhile since I've come here, but I'm wondering if any of you guys are going to CEO in Orlando, Florida this year? Would love to meet you guys and get some Marth games in.
I wish I was able to. This year has been a lack of huge tournaments for me. I'm shooting to at least go to Smash Con but even that seems difficult. I will be at First Attack but nobody goes to it yet on the Smash 4 sides of things, hopefully that will change soon.
 

ReRaze

'Nee Sama
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
768
NNID
ReRaze
3DS FC
0705-3321-7681
How am I supposed to lurk here when it's so dead? D:
 
Top Bottom