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Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/
That's Melee^. See how the multiple hitboxes overlap? They moved only the tipper hitboxes further down the sword so that they overlap a little bit less. This both increases the range and makes tippers easier. The reason why tippers get easier is because with sourspots having a higher hitbox priority/a.k.a. lower hitbox ID number (like hitbox 0, hitbox 1, 2, etc.), the sourspots override in situations where both hitboxes make contact with something. The further from the sourspot the tipper can get, the better.
D
Deleted member
Guest
So after all these amazing patches, is marth finally a top 15 character yet?
Well, he's gotta enter a lot of tourneys before that, but it's likely he may have what it takes to reach the higher tiers.
(Lucina is clearly out of the high/bottom tier)
That new tier list they made a few days ago already needs to be reworked.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Marth is probably now where Roy is on the current tier list.
Darklink401
I just realized that because DB1 has frame 6 start-up, that's means you were right that it ended earlier. Nice man.
Darklink401
I just realized that because DB1 has frame 6 start-up, that's means you were right that it ended earlier. Nice man.
Darklink401
Smash Master
:3Marth is probably now where Roy is on the current tier list.
ty~ I knew somethin was off about it, haha
Man, FE got so much love...
Trunks159
Smash Journeyman
^I know right. Marth, Lucina, Roy and Ike got buffed, plus we got a new character.
So is jab>ftilt perfect yet?
So is jab>ftilt perfect yet?
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Darklink401
Smash Master
Jab > Ftilt is a great kill-confirm near the ledge, as it kills a bit earlier than jab uptilt depending on your stage position.
Jab's just great overall xD
Jab's just great overall xD
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Jab to jab is serious now too (and makes you look really good/hype especially on stream at tourney)
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Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Wait, really? Have you got a video of that? That would be cool to see.
DariusM27
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 5, 2015
- Messages
- 518
https://youtu.be/eclHGqDvNi4
I'll upload more after work. It seems like knockback growth is a bit better, but I don't know. The throw itself hasn't changed.
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Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Interesting... is this really true?
But about the knockback etc, it's knockback will be higher, or it will launch people further thanks to the damage increase.
Rashyboy05
Your Average Touhou fan~
Sometime before the Corrineta patch came out, one of the users at the Marcina Discord said that he found a kill confirm, which is a true combo, on ZSS with Dthrow->UAir which kills her regardless of DI. He also found a 50/50 kill confirm on Fox with Dthrow->Uair/Bair which is dependent on DI. I guess its safe to say that this combo works on most fastfallers on a specific percent range.
Darklink401
Smash Master
That was me. Hi~
Also not just fastfallers, this combo will now work on Marth (and presumably Lucina as well)
I plan to make a video explaining it today. I did some serious testing.
BTW these are the current characters I've tested it works on:
ZSS, Fox, Mac, Meta Knight, Falco, Marth
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Welcome to the world of Marth, Corrin...
I'll say this though, Corrin's Fair has the 14 frames of Landing Lag that our Fair should have at a minumum.
I'm actually gonna say this though. I expected to be really salty about Corrin when he was released. I expected his frame data to completely shatter ours, but I am happy that it's actually pretty balanced.
Like, our Fair has slightly more reach and comes out sooner, but his has less landing lag. His Fsmash has more reach, but ours is more powerul at the tip (heavily so), and has less endlag. Infact, I am pretty sure all of our tilts are quicker than Corrin's (aside from Dtilt, where his comes out quicker, but ends later). Needless to say, Sakurai and co. could have made Marth completely irrelevant by introducing Corrin, yet they have somehow managed to make them both relevant, and have slight differences. Kudos, balancing team!
I'll say this though, Corrin's Fair has the 14 frames of Landing Lag that our Fair should have at a minumum.
I'm actually gonna say this though. I expected to be really salty about Corrin when he was released. I expected his frame data to completely shatter ours, but I am happy that it's actually pretty balanced.
Like, our Fair has slightly more reach and comes out sooner, but his has less landing lag. His Fsmash has more reach, but ours is more powerul at the tip (heavily so), and has less endlag. Infact, I am pretty sure all of our tilts are quicker than Corrin's (aside from Dtilt, where his comes out quicker, but ends later). Needless to say, Sakurai and co. could have made Marth completely irrelevant by introducing Corrin, yet they have somehow managed to make them both relevant, and have slight differences. Kudos, balancing team!
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Darklink401
Smash Master
Mr. R is also interested in Marth now.
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Great! It's about time Marth started getting some real representation. I hope these players really do break him out and show what he can do.
kesterstudios
Smash Journeyman
I love the buffs Marth got in this patch. The only thing I'm still disappointed about Marth is his throws. They don't do enough damage. Hopefully, if there's just 1 more balance patch in Smash 4, I really want Marth's throws to do more damage, or give them less knockback to followup (except upthrow).
Other than that, Marth is looking pretty good now. His far even outranges sheik's now! HAHA TAKE THAT SHEIK.
Other than that, Marth is looking pretty good now. His far even outranges sheik's now! HAHA TAKE THAT SHEIK.
Darklink401
Smash Master
Xisin
Smash Ace
this is me jumping to conclusions and **** but i think hes lower high tier now. I.E viable. I've played good players and stuff and honestly... he feels great.
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Nah, he'd need more results to get that high, but mid tier is within the realm of possibility now.
LordWilliam1234
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2014
- Messages
- 410
- Switch FC
- 7820-3654-7995
Here you go. Updated Marth data.WhenLordWilliam1234 gets the chance to do Marth we'll know for sure but from what I can tell, his throws are identical.
Spc2799
Smash Cadet
Its so cool that everyone is excited about Marth again. Hopefully Mr. E tries to use him more now!
Darklink401
where can i find your channel?
Darklink401
where can i find your channel?
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Darklink401
Smash Master
He is already mid-tier.
Tier lists are determined more by MU spread than by results.
That being said, this is what I was talking about.
EDIT:
Spc2799
if you open that video I just posted in a new tab you'll see it n.n
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Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
More by voting lol and since there are so many MUs I'd say the voters weigh results moreHe is already mid-tier.
Tier lists are determined more by MU spread than by results.
That being said, this is what I was talking about.
EDIT:
So your video.
It was good, I liked it. I love that you said that it worked before the patch and that his throws didn't change.
What you could mention is that all of Marth's throws have the weight based property, which makes his entire throw animations slower or faster depending on character weight (heavy is slow). That is why light weight, high gravity characters are victim to this. Just to explain why things are happening.
Your explanation about Bair and Uair making the throw work better could have been more clear. You could just say Uair kills earlier due to the 1% increase in damage and that Bair reaches slightly further due to the tipper hitbox moving outwards and kills earlier thanks to 0.5% (but the hitbox is the same size).
Here's where everything goes down the toilet:
http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-44#post-20106322
Remember this? You can air dodge before hitstun ends as knockback increases. All the combos in your video are air dodge-able despite what the combo counter says. I think it's really important to explain this in your video.
Marth throws are too laggy and his jumps don't rise too fast... he simply doesn't have enough time to hit them especially with how much knockback they're taking.
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Darklink401
Smash Master
Thank you :3
I guess I could have mentioned that, but I felt that everyone knows most dthrows are weight dependent :o
I also figured everyone knew about the patch notes already, but I guess an explanation ont he upair/bair changes would be better...xD
And here's the thing, I've actually tested previously, before the patch, dthrow upair vs ZSS with DI, and mashing airdodge, and I actually couldn't airdodge. The admin of the Marth discord and another player from there tested this exact same thing, and they couldn't escape the combo either.
Seeing as this is just an extension of it, since fair/bair hit easier than upair in that scenario, due to positioning, I highly doubt they can airdodge...
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Hmm, idk what to say. You should be able to air dodge. It does more than enough KB compared to that chart that the air dodge window should basically stop increasing. You tested this with another person and in what patch? I get people air dodging online and in tourney all the time and yes I'm making sure I'm frame perfect.
@Pugwest are you done telling people about Marth's Usmash yet? Honestly, that isn't cool at all. You're a relatively famous, respected Marth so that kind of thing will spread and people will believe you. I saw you going around twitter with that and there were some smashboards posts mentioning your Usmash "discovery"
But anyway, hopefully you know by now that we have all of Marth's hitbox differences data mined and Usmash is unchanged.
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Darklink401
Smash Master
I tried it by myself, mashing airdodge/DIing, and then a few people from the Marcina discord tried it with other people and they tried to escape, and couldn't.
I'm not sure why, it just sort of...works xD
You have to be precise in the way you jump as well, so while you may have acted out of throw as fast as you could, perhaps you timed your jump slightly off? And remember this is only vs certain characters.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Yeah that's what I meant. I even interrupted the full hop with double jump early since the full hop gets slower at the top and inputter Uair as early as possible.
I'll use Dthrow more (usually i just throw off-stage because that has way more reward) and see for myself
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
It's the same for sure because of how jumping works with gravity. Marth has a medium max fall speed but a very low gravity (that's why sometimes he seems really floaty), so if he jumped harder (faster), he would jump higher and be in the air longer which he isn't doing.
They haven't been changing character attributes as specific as these so we can rule these out.
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Buffoon
Smash Ace
I've noticed that the spike hitbox D-Air connecting on a grounded opponent gives more time for follow-ups at percentages that pop them off the ground. Is this a result of the damage increase, or am I just crazy?
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Yeah because the damage increased, it does more knockback at the same percent. But nothing else changed to give us more time. Hitstun seems the same and the landing lag is the same.
DariusM27
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 5, 2015
- Messages
- 518
I'll get you some results
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Oh you go to tournaments?
Loachy
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2013
- Messages
- 101
- NNID
- Loachy
- 3DS FC
- 3780-9091-2349
You'll see. YOU'LL ALL SEE!