Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Bowserboy3]

The only other thing that could possibly have easier tippers is Uair but meh idk if it does. We'll see.

As far as more moves that could have more range, I left out Jab 1 because I wasn't sure. But yeah Jab 1 is another possibility. BTW for Nair, both Nair 1 and Nair 2 got the bigger hitboxes. Not just Nair 2.

Ooh, for some reason, I didn't think to check both hits of Nair. Good spot.

I really hope we get a real data dump soon so we can see exactly how much has changed.

 

[Loachy]

Ooh, for some reason, I didn't think to check both hits of Nair. Good spot.

I really hope we get a real data dump soon so we can see exactly how much has changed.

Watch everything be placebo. Everything, even the damage buffs. idk how but for some reason I don't doubt it either.

 

[Vipermoon]

^This is my post from the other thread. I'm here to debunk a couple of things.

Nair. The Smashville white dot numbers for Nair that I was referring to were apparently for Nair 1. Nair 2 has more range than Nair 1 so this is why when I got much bigger numbers; I though it was hitbox size increases. Nair range is the same guys.

Dsmash. In 1.1.3 and previous, Dsmash's sword trail slightly went through the opponent's foot before it hit. It isn't like that in this patch where Dsmash hits when the sword is very close to the foot but not quite there. Dsmash had an animation change because I'm otherwise getting the same range numbers on re-test.

I still stand by Fair, Dtilt, Ftilt, and SB.

Edit: oh and Lucina still matches Marth

Well I wouldn't call this placebo. More like making mistakes but anyway, here's my post from the patch discussion thread. I was quoting my range post from the patch notes thread.

 

[ElementUser]

Not sure if Marth could do this pre-patch but I was throwing out f-tilts in training and it seems to slide Marth forward just like u-tilt. Someone want to confirm this as well?

I noticed that too, confirming. Though UTilt seems to move you forward more than FTilt.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well I wouldn't call this placebo. More like making mistakes but anyway, here's my post from the patch discussion thread. I was quoting my post range post from the patch notes thread.

Wait...

"and Lucina still matches Marth"

So Lucina also gets the same slight range buffs Marth got to his tipper?

 

[Vipermoon]

Wait...

"and Lucina still matches Marth"

So Lucina also gets the same slight range buffs Marth got to his tipper?

Lucina has the same hitboxes Marth has. She has the "tipper hitbox" it just does the same knockback, damage, and hitlag as her closer hitboxes. So yes, of course they would give her the same stuff.

 

[BozzMac]

Lucina has the same hitboxes Marth has. She has the "tipper hitbox" it just does the same knockback, damage, and hitlag as her closer hitboxes. So yes, of course they would give her the same stuff.

I remember Lucina having shorter range than Marth. When she gets a phantom hit on her jab, Marth can jab and hit Lucina with the tipper. Unless you're saying that Lucina's range got buffed to be equivalent with Marth's this patch.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I remember Lucina having shorter range than Marth. When she gets a phantom hit on her jab, Marth can jab and hit Lucina with the tipper. Unless you're saying that Lucina's range got buffed to be equivalent with Marth's this patch.

That's due to her frame being smaller than Marth. Marth is slightly taller, so it makes sence he reaches slightly farther.

 

[DariusM27]

What is your favorite change to Marth? I for one love that our Nair is improved. I used to use Nair against short characters and hitboxes would go right over their head very often. Being short no longer gives such a huge advantage against Marth!

 

[Bowserboy3]

What is your favorite change to Marth? I for one love that our Nair is improved. I used to use Nair against short characters and hitboxes would go right over their head very often. Being short no longer gives such a huge advantage against Marth!

I like the damage buffs to Fair and Uair. Fair dealing more damage when stale is a huge boon, and the potential for it to kill is nice (I killed a Bayonetta near the edge at 118% the other day with tipper Fair). Uair's damage buff is super nice too, it just helps tack on that extra damage when comboing/juggling.

 

[DariusM27]

I like the damage buffs to Fair and Uair. Fair dealing more damage when stale is a huge boon, and the potential for it to kill is nice (I killed a Bayonetta near the edge at 118% the other day with tipper Fair). Uair's damage buff is super nice too, it just helps tack on that extra damage when comboing/juggling.

The extra damage and range is kind of weird to me. I'm not used to that much power, lol, so I need to adjust to it.

 

[Spc2799]

The extra damage and range is kind of weird to me. I'm not used to that much power, lol, so I need to adjust to it.

SAME. I've been surprised by how much easier it it to rack up damage with fair walls and such. idk if these tipper buffs are real but it really feels like somethings helping me tip easier. Marth just feels better right now.

 

[ElementUser]

What is your favorite change to Marth? I for one love that our Nair is improved. I used to use Nair against short characters and hitboxes would go right over their head very often. Being short no longer gives such a huge advantage against Marth!

Did Nair get a range buff or something? Also are you doing immediate Nair when rising, or doing a falling Nair to hit the shorter characters?

Was just unsure since it's not something obvious I picked up in 1.1.4, unlike something like Fair buffs or the tilt endlag changes

 

[Vipermoon]

Well I wouldn't call this placebo. More like making mistakes but anyway, here's my post from the patch discussion thread. I was quoting my range post from the patch notes thread.

Did Nair get a range buff or something? Also are you doing immediate Nair when rising, or doing a falling Nair to hit the shorter characters?

Was just unsure since it's not something obvious I picked up in 1.1.4, unlike something like Fair buffs or the tilt endlag changes

Click on the arrow next to "Vipermoon said:"

I guess you guys missed it but Nair hitboxes are the same.

 

[Reizilla]

I'm liking how they finally made it possible to spike on the right side of the stage! :D

 

[DariusM27]

Did Nair get a range buff or something? Also are you doing immediate Nair when rising, or doing a falling Nair to hit the shorter characters?

Was just unsure since it's not something obvious I picked up in 1.1.4, unlike something like Fair buffs or the tilt endlag changes

Sh Falling fastfall Nair. I think marths air speed is different. In any case, I know it's hitting lower than it used to.

I'm liking how they finally made it possible to spike on the right side of the stage! :D

What do you mean?

 

[Vipermoon]

Reizilla I also don't know what you mean

DariusM27 stop spreading misinformation

 

[FallenHero]

Vipermoon Darius isn't even spreading misinformation, he literally said "I think", he never stated it as if it was true.

 

[Vipermoon]

Vipermoon Darius isn't even spreading misinformation, he literally said "I think", he never stated it as if it was true.

That's all it takes for people to spread things in youtube comments, twitter, reddit, facebook groups, another smashboards thread, or at a local tourney.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Sh Falling fastfall Nair. I think marths air speed is different. In any case, I know it's hitting lower than it used to

Though it seems most likely placebo, if it is hitting lower than you think it is, it wouldn't be to do with his air speed, but fall speed.

Just to clarify, I see no change unfortunately.

 

[Vipermoon]

For a fact his fall speed is unchanged. You can still do full hop Dair then double jump before you land.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Who remembers this old favourite?

I wonder if the buff to Marth's Forward Air tipper has anything to do with this...

 

[Reizilla]

Old Brawl joke. Probably a poor time to make it considering all the speculation. My b.

 

[DariusM27]

DariusM27 stop spreading misinformation

Are you freaking serious. I said "I think" I didn't say "I know". I don't know why for sure, but Nair is definitely connecting lower better than before. And you don't own marth and nothing you say is more important than what anyone else says and you can be wrong too, so cut the attitude please. Geeze man, chill, learn how to express your thoughts to people without being so accusatory and demeaning.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Who remembers this old favourite?

I wonder if the buff to Marth's Forward Air tipper has anything to do with this...

Justice has been served also sup folks.

 

[Vipermoon]

Are you freaking serious. I said "I think" I didn't say "I know". I don't know why for sure, but Nair is definitely connecting lower better than before. And you don't own marth and nothing you say is more important than what anyone else says and you can be wrong too, so cut the attitude please. Geeze man, chill, learn how to express your thoughts to people without being so accusatory and demeaning.

I'm sorry that I came across as that. I had a placebo problem like anyone else in the patches earlier in 2015 so I know what it's like.

About your speculation:

No matter what I do it's here upside down (even if I upload upside down) but anyway, I remember Nair sometimes had this issue with Diddy. The arm hitbox and sword hitbox both missed, the sword trail went right above his head. This is exactly the same as before. I know the sword trail didn't go through his head but it doesn't have to because hitboxes are spheres so they're a lot fatter than the sword.

Note: don't pay attention to the metal, I was just tired of Diddy taking so much knockback in 1/4 mode

 

[EnGarde]

I'm sorry that I came across as that. I had a placebo problem like anyone else in the patches earlier in 2015 so I know what it's like.

About your speculation:
View attachment 95263
No matter what I do it's here upside down (even if I upload upside down) but anyway, I remember Nair sometimes had this issue with Diddy. The arm hitbox and sword hitbox both missed, the sword trail went right above his head. This is exactly the same as before. I know the sword trail didn't go through his head but it doesn't have to because hitboxes are spheres so they're a lot fatter than the sword.

Note: don't pay attention to the metal, I was just tired of Diddy taking so much knockback in 1/4 mode

Here you go.

 

[DariusM27]

Airdodge nair1 never worked on short characters before. Now it works on them. Idk why for sure, but it does.

 

[Vipermoon]

Airdodge nair1 never worked on short characters before. Now it works on them. Idk why for sure, but it does.

Nair 1 up close, middle, or tipper?

 

[DariusM27]

Nair 1 up close, middle, or tipper?

Mid and tip it seems

 

[Jterr]

yeah fair and tippers have been easier to land lately. I hope it just isn't a placebo, but it does feel like it reaches farther. And up tilt could combo before, but now its even faster so thats great.

 

[DariusM27]

I'm getting immediate Nair to land the second hit and at higher percents, first hit at earlier percents, but the second hit landing on marth at 0% from immediate sh nair before fastfall doesn't seem normal.
But the first hit strings into the second better now, probably because of damage buff.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm getting immediate Nair to land the second hit and at higher percents, first hit at earlier percents, but the second hit landing on marth at 0% from immediate sh nair before fastfall doesn't seem normal.
But the first hit strings into the second better now, probably because of damage buff.

Rejoice, Nair DID get a tipper buff!

 

[PK Gaming]

Haha jesus christ

It actually happened

The fabled "range" increase is a thing now

I'm pretty happy for you all. Hopefully this makes a big difference

 

[Vipermoon]

Hmm, i can't find any changes to Bowz JR's side-b at least as far as ACMD goes.

Anywayz, here's marth. A whole bunch of stuff :D (keep in mind that XYZ coords may be in reverse order in the dumps at the moment. So ZYX instead

Since everyone's asking about Marth (and Lucina) hitbox changes...

Jab1, Jab2
Tipper hitbox X value change 6.5 → 7

Ftilt
Tipper X 6.7→7.7

Dtilt
Sour hitbox Y 3.2→2.7, X 15.2→16.7 (hitbox not tied to sword, those numbers aren't as silly as they sound)
Tipper hitbox X 6.7→8.2

Nair
Hit 1 tipper X 6.7→7.7
Hit 2 tipper X 6.5→7.5

Fair
Tipper X 6.7→7.7

Bair
Tipper X 6.7→7.7

Utilt, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Uair, Dair
Same hitboxes


tl;dr - sword/tipper is longer for many attacks and dtilt reaches further below the ledge

edit: orz, tad too slow

All of the tippers in the moves above moved outwards those many units. Dtilt had its sourspot moved down and out as well (which could be a nerf because then that means it won't hit aerial opponents as easily).

And it turns out I was initially right above Nair reaching further but I took it back so I won't take credit. DariusM27 they just moved the tipper outwards for both hits of Nair, this doesn't help it hit below, but you could see other things happen with the tipper that didn't before. We'll see with time.

Shield Breaker is unchanged, I don't know what happened with my data, sorry guys.

edit: and of course the damage buffs that we already covered are in there as well and that's all for damage. no knockback changes. Dancing Blade 1 does hit 1 frame earlier as we already found out

 

[DariusM27]

Rejoice, Nair DID get a tipper buff!

For sure confirmed? Sure seems that way.

Edit - Oh goody. Knew the whole time, lol.

 

[DariusM27]

Anyone know what's going on with dthrow to uair? I just hoo ha ko'd capn falcon, bayonetta, and corrin several times easy. I'm getting it consistently at kill percent against different players and characters. Sometimes my marth even has 60 to 80%. Never did that before. o_0

 

[Vipermoon]

Anyone know what's going on with dthrow to uair? I just hoo ha ko'd capn falcon, bayonetta, and corrin several times easy. I'm getting it consistently at kill percent against different players and characters. Sometimes my marth even has 60 to 80%. Never did that before. o_0

I quoted a post with this link: https://www.diffchecker.com/zq6ncwvg up there^^

The stuff on the right side is current patch and there are no changes in knockback to his throws. It seems to me that the end lag on his throws are the same as well. When @LordWilliam1234 gets the chance to do Marth we'll know for sure but from what I can tell, his throws are identical.

Fun fact about all of Marth's throws is that they have the "weight based" property. How fast his entire throw animations are depends on the opponent's weight. Marth can never throw combo Bowser for example.

 

[kingxpiccolo]

what ive figured out in training mode is that the first frames of up air (just before you land) will combo into almost anything until high percents. pretty sure this was the case before the patch, but since tilts are faster, or have reduced lag or whatever, uair(tip)+utilt+utilt is a true combo on some fastfallers at very low percents (almost everything is tested on CPU). and uair+bair+fair is also true on most fighters around mid percents. considering i only really messed around with him before the patch, and im fairly new to smash in general, im completely ignorant to any actual data on him. but im having a lot of fun. marth feels really smooth now and i just thought i could share some of my knowledge just case i could help someone out. but i wouldnt be surprised if im either wrong about everything, or if everyone already knew this. i mean, i could definitely post more findings if anyone is actually interested (because this is interesting to me) but i feel like i might just be spouting nonsense at this point. who knows. because i sure dont. in fact, im informed rather poorly on many things, but id really like to learn

 

[Spc2799]

I'm very happy. After last patch i almost gave up hope on us getting some legitimate buffs. Now I'm not saying this will make Marth high tier or anything but its so nice to know that we are gonna have just a bit easier of a time playing this frustrating character. Thanks for the info everyone!