Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

[DisidisiD]

It has a small amount of kb near the gun itself.

Also, the way resets work is that, if a move has purely horizontal kb (0 or 180) or has an angle less than 180 and low enough kb that they don't raise above the floor, the move will lock. There are more things with moves with angles greater than 360 but I won't go into that. But basically, nair, bair, her guns in bullet arts, bullet climax, and Fsmash all lock at certain percents.

EDIT: and technically the first hit of dsmash too but it would be hard to hit that without the second hit.

Oh whoops. I meant to edit not reply

 

[Crudele]

Simple but noteworthy: If my fthrow is stale af and won't kill at the ledge, dthrow is actually a decent DI mixup. I've killed with it around like 170% I think.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

Quick question, are her bullets transcendent? Specifically her neutral B? I'm getting worried that Bayonetta might be a little too ridiculous. I'm just curious to learn more about her so I can fight her.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Quick question, are her bullets transcendent? Specifically her neutral B? I'm getting worried that Bayonetta might be a little too ridiculous. I'm just curious to learn more about her so I can fight her.

Neither are iirc.

 

[Kekun Frog]

DESCRIPTION FROM YOUTUBE VIDEO:
*These were only tested on C. Falcon. I am pretty sure some of these can be D.I.'d out of and what not & are rage dependent, etc. I just thought some of these looked pretty flashy.*

Just a few interesting things I found while labbing with Bayonetta for a few. I'm sure some of you out there can expand on these things for better combos/strings and what not.

 

[DE235]

Good work hope we can get more concrete stuff

 

[Mothman]

also have you guys tried downthrow into jab, it's a pretty good start up, I dont think anyone's mentioned it (unless its because everyone knows about it)

 

[Sonicninja115]

These are really good!

The tumble locks are great, and I am not sure if this is what you are referring to, but they are completely true. The Bair-Bair lock is 100% true. The opponent cannot tech it. If they slide off the platform, they are put into tumble and are stunned for too much time. You may already know this, but I am just confirming.

Could you post this post in the Metagame thread as well?

 

[DisidisiD]

Quick question, are her bullets transcendent? Specifically her neutral B? I'm getting worried that Bayonetta might be a little too ridiculous. I'm just curious to learn more about her so I can fight her.

The bullet art bullets are transcendent disjoints I believe.

 

[The Puffer]

Idk if this has been talked about, but you can counter more than one attack using With Time, resulting in more than one slowed down character.

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

If I want to use up b right after I dair offstage, is there a certain way I can time it so I won't just kill myself?

 

[Shadow the Past]

also have you guys tried downthrow into jab, it's a pretty good start up, I dont think anyone's mentioned it (unless its because everyone knows about it)

At low percents, dtilt is also a good option, especially since it leads into a free combo.

If I want to use up b right after I dair offstage, is there a certain way I can time it so I won't just kill myself?

Just practice it in training mode (try 1/2 or 1/4 speed if you can't find the best timing). Dair doesn't last very long, so generally when you're about to go off screen on the bottom is when you should be up-bing. (Obviously doesn't apply to taller stages like Battlefield.)

 

[Vinje]

This might just be me but I feel like her full jab is pretty safe on shield.
Now when I say this I specifically mean when someone gets up from the ledge and shields.
They have only two options, either let the jab/bullets break the shield (Which most people won't let happen) or let the point blank bullets knock them offstage again.

 

[Syde7]

Has their been any extensive discussion (IE a thread made about it) concerning Witch Time. Its properties, how long the duration lasts & scales down, how it fully functions, and various follow-ups out of it? If so, can I get a link to the thread?

I know a lot of it is really up-in-the-air, considering its a counter and some of what you can do is based off what move is being countered, but I'm curious. Thx

 

[Giova]

Has their been any extensive discussion (IE a thread made about it) concerning Witch Time. Its properties, how long the duration lasts & scales down, how it fully functions, and various follow-ups out of it? If so, can I get a link to the thread?

I know a lot of it is really up-in-the-air, considering its a counter and some of what you can do is based off what move is being countered, but I'm curious. Thx

http://smashboards.com/threads/lets-talk-about-witch-time.426404/

We are using this thread to talk about Witch time. We should cover its properties and tips right now!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, guys here we go with the first post.

The Neutral

Neutral game is where it all begins. What happens in neutral determines the out come of a match. How you control your opponent and the tools you have to resist or counter their control. Bayonetta has an interesting neutral that is hard to pin down. She has crazy mobility and alot of options that can counter various options from her opposition. She isnt Mario or Cloud. There is no go to easy option that is obvious in most situations. She requires a different mindset and creative thinking. IMO he neutral really comes down to these moves mainly.

Jab String
Up B - Witch Twist
Side B - Heel Slide
D-tilt
Bair
Nair
Dive Kick - QCF version of ABK
Grab
Bullet Cimax


Jab string - Basic ground punisher. When fully mashed and held for bullet arts you can get an easy 20%. Slow at 9 frames. Make sure you space well.

Up B/Witch Twist: This move is where the money is at. Pretty safe on block and whiff except vs some of the cast. Very high priority as it covers Bayo in multiple hitboxes as she spins. No invincibility but due to the speed of the attack and size of the hitboxes, she can blow through alot of attacks. This is probably the best overall OoS move in the game. Because Bayo does not enter freefall after this, she is free to move and does not really need to fear punishment. Easy thing to do if this whiffs is to dive kick away form your opponent and reset neutral. If you wish to cover yourself while maintaining stage presence, then try fast falling a nair. Use this to shut down hasty aerial approaches or after blocking a poorly spaced attack. OR use it raw to reset spacing and give your opponent pause. The power of this move is that its strong in virtually any situation.

Side b/Heel Slide: This is an anti-short hop approach tactic and can also catch high hitting pokes. Its pretty safe when done close/mid range as you will slide by your opponent. Be sure to confirm if it hit or not, so you dont do the rising flip kick after going past your opponent and not hitting them. You get a combo confirm if it hits. Go into Witch Twist for a combo. This move is high risk/high reward. Use it intelligently to counter specific actions from your opponent.

D-tilt: One of the best pokes in the game. Low profiles under high pokes, sets up for combos, and very safe when spaced well. Hits on frame 7 and if you space it right and your opponent is forced to drop shield, Bayo is only at -6. No char in the game can really punish that. Can confirm into Bair or Uair at higher percents for kills. U-smash around 100% for kills as well. This is the go to move for boxing when you are close to your opponent due to its speed and other great attributes.

Bair: Great SH poke. 13% in damage. Very safe when spaced well. A perfectly timed and spaced Bair is +4 on shield drop?!?!?!? Insanity. One of your main combo enders as well.

Nair: I feel like this is the good version of what Samus' nair is. Hits on both sides of her. +2 on shield drop when spaced well. Only around -5 if your opponent doesnt shield drop which is still stupid good. This will auto cancel in a short hop so she can do any other aerial action after the animation finishes. Nair to Witch Twist can make an opponent weary or catch opponents off guard if they choose to unwisely rush in. This move has 10 frames of recovery. Same as Sheiks fair. Read it again. THE SAME AS SHEIKS FAIR!!! Decent combo ender. Good get off me move if you dont want to witch twist. Just in general a great move to cover yourself with, if you want to maintain space/control.

Dive Kick: This move. Kreygasm. Fairly safe on whiff as long as you arent right next to your opponent. Safe on block as you will bounce back on shield. Even safe from many counters as well. Cept your own. lolz. On hit it leads to easy damage confirms of around 30% or more depending on height, weight, where you hit your opponent and your own rage. Can also lead to kill confirms at higher percents. This is the move that makes Bayos neutral kinda...well...set-play ish. Combine it with Witch Twist and nair and you have a neutral that is very very strong through either aggression or playing reactive. Something as simple as Random up b, jump nair, dive kick away is really tough for many chars to deal with on pure reaction. They either lack the speed, the options or both. Since Dive Kick is fast and leads to combos, many opponents will start to shield on reaction to Bayo jumping. This is called conditioning and it opens up many more doors for her gameplay. When you do it quickly enough you can Instant Air Dive Kick. Jump and quickly do QCF and press B. Bayo will do a dive kick very low to the ground. IADK is very strong in footsies since Bayos foot will crash into her opponent from higher up, often avoid the hitbox on her opponents poke. Its especially strong vs dtilts.

Grab: Not to be slept on. Uthrow leads to combos at low percents and her other throws are good for positioning. Bayo can make opponents fearful thanks to her comboability especially when Dive Kick is in the mix. Getting grabs is very easy by mixing in some empty short hops then going for a dash grab. Not much to add here. Getting free damage is pretty easy simply due to risk vs reward. When an opponent sees her jump, and you see a shield, you know to respond with a quick fast fall grab.

Bullet Climax - Got a really bad wrap when she first dropped, but I find it has a strong niche role as a strong anti short hop option. This move destroys chars that rely on short hop approaches and footsies. A charged climax is an easy 16% or more. Once an opponent stops jumping and stays grounded, then you can start mixing in more Dive Kicks, grabs, and dtilts. Bullet Climax forces opponents to play a slower paced ground game and then Bayo can run circles around them.

When you look at all her tools and how different she is compared to a traditional smash character, its easy to see why many people arent "getting" her. Shes very very unique. She has TONS of options and is NEVER without an answer.

But seriously tho...dive kick and witch twist. Use them. Abuse them. Love them. They are crazy good. And dtilt. UGH. Dtilt.

Combine all her options with her mobility and you have a char that just flows seamlessly across the battlefield and never feels limited.

 

[Giova]

Ok, guys here we go with the first post.

The Neutral

Neutral game is where it all begins. What happens in neutral determines the out come of a match. How you control your opponent and the tools you have to resist or counter their control. Bayonetta has an interesting neutral that is hard to pin down. She has crazy mobility and alot of options that can counter various options from her opposition. She isnt Mario or Cloud. There is no go to easy option that is obvious in most situations. She requires a different mindset and creative thinking. IMO he neutral really comes down to these moves mainly.

Jab String
Up B - Witch Twist
Side B - Heel Slide
D-tilt
Bair
Nair
Dive Kick - QCF version of ABK
Grab
Bullet Cimax


Jab string - Basic ground punisher. When fully mashed and held for bullet arts you can get an easy 20%. Slow at 9 frames. Make sure you space well.

Up B/Witch Twist: This move is where the money is at. Pretty safe on block and whiff except vs some of the cast. Very high priority as it covers Bayo in multiple hitboxes as she spins. No invincibility but due to the speed of the attack and size of the hitboxes, she can blow through alot of attacks. This is probably the best overall OoS move in the game. Because Bayo does not enter freefall after this, she is free to move and does not really need to fear punishment. Easy thing to do if this whiffs is to dive kick away form your opponent and reset neutral. If you wish to cover yourself while maintaining stage presence, then try fast falling a nair. Use this to shut down hasty aerial approaches or after blocking a poorly spaced attack. OR use it raw to reset spacing and give your opponent pause. The power of this move is that its strong in virtually any situation.

Side b/Heel Slide: This is an anti-short hop approach tactic and can also catch high hitting pokes. Its pretty safe when done close/mid range as you will slide by your opponent. Be sure to confirm if it hit or not, so you dont do the rising flip kick after going past your opponent and not hitting them. You get a combo confirm if it hits. Go into Witch Twist for a combo. This move is high risk/high reward. Use it intelligently to counter specific actions from your opponent.

D-tilt: One of the best pokes in the game. Low profiles under high pokes, sets up for combos, and very safe when spaced well. Hits on frame 7 and if you space it right and your opponent is forced to drop shield, Bayo is only at -6. No char in the game can really punish that. Can confirm into Bair or Uair at higher percents for kills. U-smash around 100% for kills as well. This is the go to move for boxing when you are close to your opponent due to its speed and other great attributes.

Bair: Great SH poke. 13% in damage. Very safe when spaced well. A perfectly timed and spaced Bair is +4 on shield drop?!?!?!? Insanity. One of your main combo enders as well.

Nair: I feel like this is the good version of what Samus' nair is. Hits on both sides of her. +2 on shield drop when spaced well. Only around -5 if your opponent doesnt shield drop which is still stupid good. This will auto cancel in a short hop so she can do any other aerial action after the animation finishes. Nair to Witch Twist can make an opponent weary or catch opponents off guard if they choose to unwisely rush in. This move has 10 frames of recovery. Same as Sheiks fair. Read it again. THE SAME AS SHEIKS FAIR!!! Decent combo ender. Good get off me move if you dont want to witch twist. Just in general a great move to cover yourself with, if you want to maintain space/control.

Dive Kick: This move. Kreygasm. Fairly safe on whiff as long as you arent right next to your opponent. Safe on block as you will bounce back on shield. Even safe from many counters as well. Cept your own. lolz. On hit it leads to easy damage confirms of around 30% or more depending on height, weight, where you hit your opponent and your own rage. Can also lead to kill confirms at higher percents. This is the move that makes Bayos neutral kinda...well...set-play ish. Combine it with Witch Twist and nair and you have a neutral that is very very strong through either aggression or playing reactive. Something as simple as Random up b, jump nair, dive kick away is really tough for many chars to deal with on pure reaction. They either lack the speed, the options or both. Since Dive Kick is fast and leads to combos, many opponents will start to shield on reaction to Bayo jumping. This is called conditioning and it opens up many more doors for her gameplay. When you do it quickly enough you can Instant Air Dive Kick. Jump and quickly do QCF and press B. Bayo will do a dive kick very low to the ground. IADK is very strong in footsies since Bayos foot will crash into her opponent from higher up, often avoid the hitbox on her opponents poke. Its especially strong vs dtilts.

Grab: Not to be slept on. Uthrow leads to combos at low percents and her other throws are good for positioning. Bayo can make opponents fearful thanks to her comboability especially when Dive Kick is in the mix. Getting grabs is very easy by mixing in some empty short hops then going for a dash grab. Not much to add here. Getting free damage is pretty easy simply due to risk vs reward. When an opponent sees her jump, and you see a shield, you know to respond with a quick fast fall grab.

Bullet Climax - Got a really bad wrap when she first dropped, but I find it has a strong niche role as a strong anti short hop option. This move destroys chars that rely on short hop approaches and footsies. A charged climax is an easy 16% or more. Once an opponent stops jumping and stays grounded, then you can start mixing in more Dive Kicks, grabs, and dtilts. Bullet Climax forces opponents to play a slower paced ground game and then Bayo can run circles around them.

When you look at all her tools and how different she is compared to a traditional smash character, its easy to see why many people arent "getting" her. Shes very very unique. She has TONS of options and is NEVER without an answer.

But seriously tho...dive kick and witch twist. Use them. Abuse them. Love them. They are crazy good. And dtilt. UGH. Dtilt.

Combine all her options with her mobility and you have a char that just flows seamlessly across the battlefield and never feels limited.

Very good guide!

 

[Sonicninja115]

Ok, guys here we go with the first post.

The Neutral

Neutral game is where it all begins. What happens in neutral determines the out come of a match. How you control your opponent and the tools you have to resist or counter their control. Bayonetta has an interesting neutral that is hard to pin down. She has crazy mobility and alot of options that can counter various options from her opposition. She isnt Mario or Cloud. There is no go to easy option that is obvious in most situations. She requires a different mindset and creative thinking. IMO he neutral really comes down to these moves mainly.

Jab String
Up B - Witch Twist
Side B - Heel Slide
D-tilt
Bair
Nair
Dive Kick - QCF version of ABK
Grab
Bullet Cimax


Jab string - Basic ground punisher. When fully mashed and held for bullet arts you can get an easy 20%. Slow at 9 frames. Make sure you space well.

Up B/Witch Twist: This move is where the money is at. Pretty safe on block and whiff except vs some of the cast. Very high priority as it covers Bayo in multiple hitboxes as she spins. No invincibility but due to the speed of the attack and size of the hitboxes, she can blow through alot of attacks. This is probably the best overall OoS move in the game. Because Bayo does not enter freefall after this, she is free to move and does not really need to fear punishment. Easy thing to do if this whiffs is to dive kick away form your opponent and reset neutral. If you wish to cover yourself while maintaining stage presence, then try fast falling a nair. Use this to shut down hasty aerial approaches or after blocking a poorly spaced attack. OR use it raw to reset spacing and give your opponent pause. The power of this move is that its strong in virtually any situation.

Side b/Heel Slide: This is an anti-short hop approach tactic and can also catch high hitting pokes. Its pretty safe when done close/mid range as you will slide by your opponent. Be sure to confirm if it hit or not, so you dont do the rising flip kick after going past your opponent and not hitting them. You get a combo confirm if it hits. Go into Witch Twist for a combo. This move is high risk/high reward. Use it intelligently to counter specific actions from your opponent.

D-tilt: One of the best pokes in the game. Low profiles under high pokes, sets up for combos, and very safe when spaced well. Hits on frame 7 and if you space it right and your opponent is forced to drop shield, Bayo is only at -6. No char in the game can really punish that. Can confirm into Bair or Uair at higher percents for kills. U-smash around 100% for kills as well. This is the go to move for boxing when you are close to your opponent due to its speed and other great attributes.

Bair: Great SH poke. 13% in damage. Very safe when spaced well. A perfectly timed and spaced Bair is +4 on shield drop?!?!?!? Insanity. One of your main combo enders as well.

Nair: I feel like this is the good version of what Samus' nair is. Hits on both sides of her. +2 on shield drop when spaced well. Only around -5 if your opponent doesnt shield drop which is still stupid good. This will auto cancel in a short hop so she can do any other aerial action after the animation finishes. Nair to Witch Twist can make an opponent weary or catch opponents off guard if they choose to unwisely rush in. This move has 10 frames of recovery. Same as Sheiks fair. Read it again. THE SAME AS SHEIKS FAIR!!! Decent combo ender. Good get off me move if you dont want to witch twist. Just in general a great move to cover yourself with, if you want to maintain space/control.

Dive Kick: This move. Kreygasm. Fairly safe on whiff as long as you arent right next to your opponent. Safe on block as you will bounce back on shield. Even safe from many counters as well. Cept your own. lolz. On hit it leads to easy damage confirms of around 30% or more depending on height, weight, where you hit your opponent and your own rage. Can also lead to kill confirms at higher percents. This is the move that makes Bayos neutral kinda...well...set-play ish. Combine it with Witch Twist and nair and you have a neutral that is very very strong through either aggression or playing reactive. Something as simple as Random up b, jump nair, dive kick away is really tough for many chars to deal with on pure reaction. They either lack the speed, the options or both. Since Dive Kick is fast and leads to combos, many opponents will start to shield on reaction to Bayo jumping. This is called conditioning and it opens up many more doors for her gameplay. When you do it quickly enough you can Instant Air Dive Kick. Jump and quickly do QCF and press B. Bayo will do a dive kick very low to the ground. IADK is very strong in footsies since Bayos foot will crash into her opponent from higher up, often avoid the hitbox on her opponents poke. Its especially strong vs dtilts.

Grab: Not to be slept on. Uthrow leads to combos at low percents and her other throws are good for positioning. Bayo can make opponents fearful thanks to her comboability especially when Dive Kick is in the mix. Getting grabs is very easy by mixing in some empty short hops then going for a dash grab. Not much to add here. Getting free damage is pretty easy simply due to risk vs reward. When an opponent sees her jump, and you see a shield, you know to respond with a quick fast fall grab.

Bullet Climax - Got a really bad wrap when she first dropped, but I find it has a strong niche role as a strong anti short hop option. This move destroys chars that rely on short hop approaches and footsies. A charged climax is an easy 16% or more. Once an opponent stops jumping and stays grounded, then you can start mixing in more Dive Kicks, grabs, and dtilts. Bullet Climax forces opponents to play a slower paced ground game and then Bayo can run circles around them.

When you look at all her tools and how different she is compared to a traditional smash character, its easy to see why many people arent "getting" her. Shes very very unique. She has TONS of options and is NEVER without an answer.

But seriously tho...dive kick and witch twist. Use them. Abuse them. Love them. They are crazy good. And dtilt. UGH. Dtilt.

Combine all her options with her mobility and you have a char that just flows seamlessly across the battlefield and never feels limited.

If you don't mind, I would like to adapt this a bit and add it to the OP. I would credit you, and my changes would purely be aesthetic, probably.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do your thang bruh.

 

[pikazz]

The nice detail is really nice, but I actually like to save my BAir to be fresh when it will actually kill!
sure its nice to use it at low to middle, but later keeping it fresh until the kill

 

[Lakuto]

I didn't see people talk about stages so much so I'll just drop this here.

You all know you can ABK only one time in the air unless you hit an opponent. The thing is not restricted to characters. For example you can get another ABK after hitting a balloon on Town & City and Smashville or even ducks on Duck Hunt. It looks really cool for stage movement (kinda looks like Pikachu's Quick Attack) and opens escapes when recovering or quickly escaping the ledge.

On a side note, you can also use this on Luma too.

So yeah, stages.

 

[Giova]

I didn't see people talk about stages so much so I'll just drop this here.

You all know you can ABK only one time in the air unless you hit an opponent. The thing is not restricted to characters. For example you can get another ABK after hitting a balloon on Town & City and Smashville or even ducks on Duck Hunt. It looks really cool for stage movement (kinda looks like Pikachu's Quick Attack) and opens escapes when recovering or quickly escaping the ledge.

On a side note, you can also use this on Luma too.

So yeah, stages.

Nice I didnt thought of duck hunt ducks, maybe that stage is a good pick for bayo!

 

[Burgundy]

Also important to remember that getting hit midair will restore ALL of your ABK's. I managed to get a kill off the top after doing ABK -> ABK, getting hit, then doing two more ABK's, Fair 1 2, Witch Twist.

 

[DisidisiD]

Does anyone know
a) the slowdown factor of WTime?
or
b) the rate at which bullet arts shoot the opponent (frames per bullet pls)?
Thanks.

 

[Sonicninja115]

The nice detail is really nice, but I actually like to save my BAir to be fresh when it will actually kill!
sure its nice to use it at low to middle, but later keeping it fresh until the kill

This is really good advice. It is super annoying how some Diddy mains insist on avoiding Uair in case it becomes a kill option later on, completely ignoring the stale moves list and combos Uair can bring. Use your moves people! Just, make sure you use 9 moves between mid and high Percents.

Also, you can chain 5 Uairs-WT1.

 

[DisidisiD]

This is really good advice. It is super annoying how some Diddy mains insist on avoiding Uair in case it becomes a kill option later on, completely ignoring the stale moves list and combos Uair can bring. Use your moves people! Just, make sure you use 9 moves between mid and high Percents.

Also, you can chain 5 Uairs-WT1.

The thing to take into consideration is if there are better, more damaging options off of the current situation. If yes, do those. If not, there;s a new path.

Ignoring the stale moves list, the choice comes down to this. Will the amount more of damage I do by using this move in combo or as a finisher be higher than the amount of percent I'll kill later with this move because of staling? If not, then choose the next best option. Otherwise, use the move. It will pay off in the end as they may need a higher percent to be killed with that move but you are closer to that percent than you would have been to the original percent (I hope that made sense).

I'll give an example. Let's say a ryu is doing a a combo and he hits with a light dtilt at 20%. He can either use shoryuken or he can do a more damaging combo. If he realizes that he can do the combo, he should go for it.

However, lets say this is an inexperienced ryu who doesn't know that he has better options. He has to decide between two things: tatsumaki or shoryuken. While shoryuken will do more damage, it will stale the move, increasing the kill percent. However, shoryuken does about 9% more than tatsumaki. Using shoryuken will only raise the kill percent by 2-3% max. In this situation, shoryuken is ideal.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I'm glad you mentioned Divekick, Emblem Lord. I've been using and abusing that for days and no one else I can see really used it too often. It's so versatile. Safe, leads to combos, mixes up with bair, and can make it hard for an aerial punish. I can't tell you how many times I avoided a usmash or uair by divekicking away, or how many times I've gotten confirms off of projectiles or conditioning. it's amazing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

People dont realize its good because most of this community hasnt played other games. Certainly not other fighters. They think in "Smash" terms and are thus limited.

Makes no difference to me.

People that can't think beyond will never ascend past a certain level of skill.

The ones that do are the ones that become champions.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WejDhH9EIlA
I sense a strong case of "I don't want my Sheik to lose to Nairo's Bayonetta" bias, no combo potential? Apparently he didn't watch the Video Presentation completely, she was made specifically to combo, whereas Sheik can only combo because of the frame data, no kill options? Her fthrow is a kill throw and even if it doesn't kill, it sends you off stage, where Bayonetta can easily put you in a bad position, even Sheik isn't save from Witch Time.

 

[Sonicninja115]

People dont realize its good because most of this community hasnt played other games. Certainly not other fighters. They think in "Smash" terms and are thus limited.

Makes no difference to me.

People that can't think beyond will never ascend past a certain level of skill.

The ones that do are the ones that become champions.

IMO, what makes Bayonetta top/high tier is mainly one thing. She doesn't have a bad move. She doesn't really have a situational move either. Everything works together, is good, and has a purpose. Some characters have an pretty bad moveset, but three or four OP tools (sorta)
Shulk is pretty bad, but he has Monado arts and a top tier Nair/Fair.

 

[Ghidorah14]

IMO, what makes Bayonetta top/high tier is mainly one thing. She doesn't have a bad move. She doesn't really have a situational move either. Everything works together, is good, and has a purpose.

Uptilt.

 

[Jaxas]

Uptilt.

Apparently it's disjointed/invincible enough to beat Cloud's Dair flat-out, so I mean it has that going for it

 

[Emblem Lord]

Witch twist beats cloud dair clean.

**** is the new mach tornado.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Witch twist beats cloud dair clean.

**** is the new mach tornado.

That's pretty sick

 

[DisidisiD]

Witch twist beats cloud dair clean.

**** is the new mach tornado.

Mach tornado without the special fall. Oooooh

 

[Giova]

I want to mention that dive kick is pretty damn good, theres a true kill combo with it with all the cast that cant be DIed, light weight die from 0%-40%, middle weight from 10%-40% , heavy weight from 20%-50%. (Starting % are confirmed I tested, final needs some testing)

True Kill Combo:
Dive Kick > Dive Kick > Upb > JC Upb

So every time you have the opening to do it, do it and get yourself the stock, is easier than it looks, I have taken a lot of stocks this way. Is very reliable!

PD: works on every Omega and FD we need to test % on battlefield and town & city etc

EDIT: on pikachu works at 25% - 40% idk wha and I think on Fox it doesnt work

 

[Jaxas]

I want to mention that dive kick is pretty damn good, theres a true kill combo with it with all the cast that cant be DIed, light weight die from 0%-40%, middle weight from 10%-40% , heavy weight from 20%-50%. (Starting % are confirmed I tested, final needs some testing)

True Kill Combo:
Dive Kick > Dive Kick > Upb > JC Upb

So every time you have the opening to do it, do it and get yourself the stock, is easier than it looks, I have taken a lot of stocks this way. Is very reliable!

PD: works on every Omega and FD we need to test % on battlefield and town & city etc

And you've tested (or seen tests of) this with DI and airdodging attempts?

How tight are the links?

 

[Giova]

And you've tested (or seen tests of) this with DI and airdodging attempts?

How tight are the links?

Yeah ive done this several times on for glory and with friends. (I can upload replays to youtube if needed) needs some proper testing with all the DIs but cant test it alone.

Im pretty sure you cant do anything

The links marks true combo on training and I havent seen an airdodge or 3frame attack yet. The only thing that can go wrong is that you mistake in the combo

 

[Sonicninja115]

Uptilt.

Utilt hit 1 true combos into ABK.

Hit 2 combos from Dtilt and into WT at mid/lower Percents. Utilt also deals a fair amount of damage, which is great if you get a Dtilt at low % and want a better combo. (Need more percent) Utilt also combos into Fair, which starts combos as well. I don't see how this is a bad move?

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

I also think that in neutral, Bullet Climax and dtilt Bullet arts is good for pressuring the opponent and forcing them to make a rushed or unsafe approach. If they sit in shield or try to camp, you can use Bullet climax as a response. If they apply the kirby vs fox strategy of crouching to avoid it, you can use dtilt bullet arts to rack up damage. I wouldn't advise spamming them, but it's a good tool for pressure, as it forces an opponent to approach you, leading to openings for combos.