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Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
Whats to come:
Moveset Analysis
Tech compendium
Strategies
Playstyles
And more!

Important Notice:
Nothing ATM.

Introduction:
This is a place to discuss all things relating to Bayonetta's metagame! Feel free to theorycraft, discuss techs and strategies! As the time goes on, I will continue to update the OP with many things, mainly what is listed in the Whats to Come section at the top. Even though it is sparse at the moment, please feel free to bring your findings here and discuss them!

Moveset Analysis:



Attacks:

Check out this thread for in-depth moveset data:
crescent-valley-umbra-witch-research-data-repository
Jab:


Hitbox Active: 9
FAF:​
Jab 1: 16
Jab 2: 18
Jab 3: 17​
Damage:​
Hit 1: 1.5%
Hit 2: 1.5%
Hit 3: 2.7%
Finisher: 7​
Use: Damage
Frames on Shield: -21/-29
General Overview:
Jab is Bayonetta's second fastest standard attack, and rather useful. It deals a sizable 12% and is difficult to SDI, unlike many Jabs. It is a great quick punish, but is outclassed by Dtilt.
Ranking::120::120::120:
Dash Attack:

Hitbox Active: 16
FAF: 47
Damage: 10%
Use: Damage
Frames on Shield: -16
General Overview:
Dash Attack sucks... Don't try to defend it. It has high start-up, and is insanely unsafe on shield. Avoid using this move if possible.
Ranking::120::120:

Forward Tilt:


Hitbox Active: 12
FAF:​
Ftilt 1: 16
Ftilt 2: 16​
Damage:​
Hit 1: 3.5%
Hit 2: 3%
Hit 3: 8.5%​
Use: Damage, Positioning, combo
Frames on Shield: -8/-17/-15
General Overview:
Ftilt deals a solid 15% and leads into combos at certain percents. It has good range and the third's hitbox is...questionably large...
Ranking::120::120::120::120:
Up Tilt:

Hitbox Active: 7/11
FAF: 27
Damage:​
Hit 1: 5%
Hit 2: 6%​
Use: Combo
Frames on Shield: -8
General Overview:
A full Utilt combos into Twist and Uair, leading to a plethora of dangerous combos. Dtilt combos into the second hit of Utilt at lower percents, allowing for a little extra damage and slightly better positioning. If only the first hit of Utilt connects, then it easily combos into ABK, which leads to easy high percent combos and easier kills.
Ranking::120::120::120:
Down Tilt:

Hitbox Active: 7
FAF: 26
Damage: 6%/7%
Use: Combo
Frames on Shield: -6
General Overview:
Dtilt is one of Bayonetta's main combo starters. Comboing into Uair, Twist, ABK and Fair. It combos until the mid 100%'s and is a central part of Bayonetta's neutral as it is her fastest tilt.
Ranking::120::120::120::120:

Forward Smash:

Hitbox Active: 19
FAF: 68
Damage: 16%/14%
Use: Positioning, Killing
Frames on Shield: -38
General Overview:
Forward smash is good for killing off of a read and positioning a timed opponent. It has good horizontal reach, but is very punishable.
Ranking::120::120::120:

Up Smash:

Hitbox Active: 18
FAF: 65
Damage: 17%
Use: Killing
Frames on Shield: -35
General Overview:
Usmash is Bayonetta's best smash attack. It is the fastest, with the least amount of start-up and lag. It's kill potential is supplemented by a true combo out of Dtilt and Witch Time. It has high vertical reach and knocback.
Ranking::120::120::120:

Down Smash:

Hitbox Active: 20/25
FAF: 69
Damage: 5%/16%
Use: Spike
Frames on Shield: -29
General Overview:
Dsmash is great for spiking, but other then that, it's use is limited. With 20 frames of start-up and low kill potential, it is completely outclassed by Usmash. Dsmash is great when used with Witch Time, as a Fthrow, Fsmash, Dtilt or Utilt can all send the opponent over the abyss and straight into the path of Dsmash.
Ranking::120::120::120:

Aerials:


Neutral Aerial:

Hitbox Active: 9
FAF: 33
Landing Lag: 10
Damage:​
Hit 1: 8%
Hit 2: 6%​
Use: Spacing
Frames on Shield: +3/+2
General Overview:
Nair is another pillar of Bayonetta's neutral game. It forces tumble at low percents and is extremely safe on shield. When held, it's Bullet Arts deal considerable splash damage, and it's hitbox protects you from some aerial advances.
Ranking::120::120::120:
Forward Aerial:


Hitbox Active: 7/7/12
FAF:​
Fair 1: 27
Fair 2: 32
Fair 3: 36​
Landing Lag: 14/14/14
Damage:​
Hit 1: 3.8%
Hit 2: 2.8%
Hit 3: 6%​
Use: Combo
Frames on Shield: -9/-9/-9
General Overview:
Fair 1 is great for combo extensions and Fair 2 is as well. Using the entire string is mainly for combating correct DI and cutting your losses, but is still deals considerable damage.
Ranking::120::120::120:

Back Aerial:
Hitbox Active: 11
FAF: 30
Landing Lag: 12
Damage: 13%/10%
Use: Killing, Spacing
Frames on Shield: +4
General Overview:
Bair is a great killing option. It is relatively fast and extremely safe on shield.
Ranking::120::120::120::120:

Up Aerial:

Hitbox Active: 9
FAF: 30
Landing Lag: 12
Damage: 9%
Use: Killing, Combo
Frames on Shield: +2
General Overview:
Uair is great for frame traps and killing. Uair is Bayonetta's high percent kill confirm, being true out of ABK and Dtilt, as well as Uthrow. Uair also combos well and does decent percent.
Ranking::120::120::120:

Down Aerial:

Hitbox Active: 18
FAF: 42
Landing Lag: 28
Damage:​
Hit 1: 7/8/9%
Hit 2: 5%​
Use: Killing, Damage
Frames on Shield: -16
General Overview:
Dair is a great kill option. It kills as low as 70% at the edge of the stage, and spikes as well. It is cancelled by Jump and Twist, making it safe even when slightly below the stage. It is a passable OoS option as well.
Ranking::120::120::120:

Specials:


Bullet Climax:
Hitbox Active: 17
FAF: 16
Damage:
Uncharged:​
Hit 1: 1.4%
Hit 2: 1.4%
Hit 3: 1.4%
Hit 4: 1.4%
Charged:​
Hit 1: 2.7%
Hit 2: 2.7%
Hit 3: 2.7%
Hit 4: 2.7%​
Use: Edge-guarding, Jab-Locking and Damage
Frames on Shield: -19/-16
General Overview:
A great Ledge-guarding option and projectile. Negates SH play and can condition the opponent to airdodge off-stage. Is also safe as it can be cancelled by shield.
Ranking::120::120::120:

Heel Slide:

Hitbox Active: 15
FAF: 72/73
Damage: 9-8%/6%
Use: Combo
Frames on Shield: -42/-6
General Overview:
Heel Slide sets up many combos, but is very punishable on block. Use it sparingly on OHKO characters and carefully on everyone else. Still a very good move regardless.
Ranking::120::120::120::120:
After Burner Kick (Aerial):

Hitbox Active: 7
FAF: 32
Damage: 6%
Use: Combo
Frames on Shield: Safe
General Overview:
ABK is a movement option and combo starter. ABK-Uair is a true combo, allowing for an easy kill set-up later in the game.
Ranking::120::120::120::120:

After Burner Kick (Aerial Down):

Hitbox Active: 8
FAF: 44 (32 on hit)
Damage: 8%
Use: Combo
Frames on Shield: Safe
General Overview:
dABK is a great movement option and combo starter. dABK sets up into many death combos at almost any percent. It is also safe on shield when used with proper mix-ups.
Ranking::120::120::120::120:
Input::GCD::GCDR::GCR::GCB:
Witch Twist (WT):

Hitbox Active: 4
FAF: 29
Damage: 8%
Use: Combo
Landing Lag: 19 (1 use)
General Overview:
Great combo starter, OoS option, combo breaker and movement option... use it often.
Ranking::120::120::120::120:

Witch Time:

Counter Active: 5-21
Bat Within: 17-29
FAF: 45
Damage: Action Dependent
Use: Counter
General Overview:
Bayonetta's counter has the lowest start-up, but the highest reward. Bat Within makes this move relatively safe, even on whiff. Be forewarned, as there is a refresh counter. After USING it twice, the time in which the opponent decreases dramatically. Even if it doesn't activate, it still drains a use. use this at least twice a stock, as other wise it is a waste of a possible KO.
Ranking::120::120::120::120::120:
Throws:


Pummel:
Damage: 3%

Forward Throw:

Damage: 10%
Use: Killing, Positioning
General Overview:
Fthrows purpose is killing at high percents, and getting the opponent off-stage at all other percents.
Ranking::120::120::120::120:

Back Throw:

Damage: 9%
Use: Positioning
General Overview:
Bthrow's main purpose is to get the opponent off-stage.
Ranking::120::120:

Up Throw:

Damage: 7.5%
Use: Combo (High %)
General Overview:
Uthrow guarantees into Uair at kill percents, and can combo into twist at low depending on DI. At the very least, Uthrow grants positional advantage when in center stage.
Ranking::120::120::120:

Down Throw:

Damage: 8%
Use: Situational Combos (Low %)
General Overview:
Dthrow has multiple possible follow-ups, but no true combos. This is a situational throw that depends on your reading skills, and your opponents reaction skills.
Ranking::120::120:
 
Last edited:

Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
Tech Compendium:

After Burner Kick Down:

How: Input the Haduken input.

Use: This move is great for landing fast and has good combo potential.

Input:
:GCD::GCDR::GCR:+:GCB:

Down-Side-B

Difficulty: Easy

Ranking::120::120::120::120:


Bullet Climax Cancel:

How: Activate Bullet Climax, and while charging, hold Shield.

Use: This will cancel Bullet Climax and it can serve as a fake-out option.

Input:
:GCB:+ :GCLT:

Standard B-Shield


Difficulty: Easy

Ranking:
:120::120::120:

Bullet Climax Buffer Cancel:

How: Activate Bullet Climax in the air, and within a few frames, press Shield.

Use: You will fall down while charging Bullet Climax.However, as soon as you hit the ground, Shield will come out.

Input: :GCB:+:GCLT:

Bullet Climax-Shield

Video:

Difficulty:Medium

Ranking::120::120::120:

Climax Cancelling:

How:

Use:

Input: :GCB:

Bullet Climax

Video:

Difficulty: Easy

Ranking: :120::120::120::120:

Wave Bullet Climax:

How: Dash and then B-Reverse Bullet Climax. Bayonetta will turn around and slide a small distance because of the dashes momentum.

Use: Wave BCC into shield for safe movement and using it without shield for a quick mix-up are the main options for this tech.

Input:
:GCR:+:GCN::GCB::GCL:

Dash-B-Reverse Bullet Climax

Difficulty: Moderate

Ranking:
:120::120::120:(:120:)?


Double Jump Cancelled Witch Twist (DJCWT):

How: Double Jump, and then immediately Witch Twist.

Use: This will cancel the jump, allow you to use Bayonetta's second Witch Twist and let you still have a Double Jump afterwards.

Input:
:GCY:+:GCU::GCB:+:GCY:

Jump-Up B-Jump

Difficulty: Easy/Moderate

Ranking:
:120::120::120::120:

Easy Ledge Snap:

How: Simply run off the ledge and push back into the ledge.

Use: This is great for ledge-trumping, which is great for Bayo as an ABK or Bair is true afterwards. Or, you can just hop onto the stage and wait for them to grab the ledge without invincibility.

Input::GCR:+:GCL:

Run Off-Hold Back-Ledge Snap

Difficulty: Easy

Video:

Ranking::120::120::120::120:
 
Last edited:

Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
Neutral:

Neutral game is where it all begins. What happens in neutral determines the out come of a match. How you control your opponent and the tools you have to resist or counter their control. Bayonetta has an interesting neutral that is hard to pin down. She has crazy mobility and a lot of options that can counter various options from her opposition. She isn't Mario or Cloud. There is no go to easy option that is obvious in most situations. She requires a different mindset and creative thinking. IMO he neutral really comes down to these moves mainly.

Tools:
Jab String
Up B - Witch Twist
Side B - Heel Slide
D-tilt
Bair
Nair
Dive Kick - QCF version of ABK
Grab
Bullet Cimax


Jab String:
Basic ground punisher. When fully mashed and held for bullet arts you can get an easy 20%. Slow at 9 frames. Make sure you space well.​

Up B/Witch Twist:
This move is where the money is at. Pretty safe on block and whiff except vs some of the cast. Very high priority as it covers Bayo in multiple hitboxes as she spins. No invincibility but due to the speed of the attack and size of the hitboxes, she can blow through a lot of attacks. This is probably the best overall OoS move in the game. Because Bayo does not enter freefall after this, she is free to move and does not really need to fear punishment. Easy thing to do if this whiffs is to dive kick away form your opponent and reset neutral. If you wish to cover yourself while maintaining stage presence, then try fast falling a Nair. Use this to shut down hasty aerial approaches or after blocking a poorly spaced attack. OR use it raw to reset spacing and give your opponent pause. The power of this move is that its strong in virtually any situation.​

Side B/Heel Slide:
This is an anti-short hop approach tactic and can also catch high hitting pokes. Its pretty safe when done close/mid range as you will slide by your opponent. Be sure to confirm if it hit or not, so you don't do the rising flip kick after going past your opponent and not hitting them. You get a combo confirm if it hits. Go into Witch Twist for a combo. This move is high risk/high reward. Use it intelligently to counter specific actions from your opponent.​

D-tilt:
One of the best pokes in the game. Low profiles under high pokes, sets up for combos, and very safe when spaced well. Hits on frame 7 and if you space it right and your opponent is forced to drop shield, Bayo is only at -6. No char in the game can really punish that. Can confirm into Bair or Uair at higher percents for kills. U-smash around 100% for kills as well. This is the go to move for boxing when you are close to your opponent due to its speed and other great attributes.​

Bair:
Great SH poke. 13% in damage. Safe when spaced correctly. A perfectly timed and spaced Bair is +4 on shield drop?!?!?!? Insanity. One of your main combo finishers as well.​

Nair:
I feel like this is the good version of what Samus's Nair is. Hits on both sides of her. +2 on shield drop when spaced well. Only around -5 if your opponent decides to shield grab or jump OoS, which is still stupid good. This will auto cancel in a short hop so she can do any other aerial action after the animation finishes. Nair to Witch Twist can make an opponent weary or catch opponents off guard if they choose to unwisely rush in. This move has 10 frames of recovery. Same as Sheiks fair. Read it again. THE SAME AS SHEIKS FAIR!!! Decent combo finisher. Good get off me move if you do not want to stale Witch Twist. Just in general a great move to cover yourself with, if you want to maintain space/control.​

Dive Kick:
This move. Kreygasm. Fairly safe on whiff as long as you space it properly or cross up on their shield. Safe on block as you will bounce back on shield. Even safe from many counters as well. However, Time will still hit Bayo. On hit it leads to easy damage confirms of around 30% or more depending on height, weight, where you hit your opponent and your own rage. Can also lead to kill confirms at higher percents. This is the move that makes Bayos neutral kinda...well...set-playish. Combine it with Witch Twist and Nair and you have a neutral that is very very strong through either aggression or playing reactive. Something as simple as Random Up B, jump Nair, Dive Kick away is really tough for many chars to deal with on pure reaction. They either lack the speed, the options or both. Since Dive Kick is fast and leads to combos, many opponents will start to shield on reaction to Bayo jumping. This is called conditioning and it opens up many more doors for her gameplay. When you do it quickly enough you can Instant Air Dive Kick. Jump and quickly do QCF and press B. Bayo will do a dive kick very low to the ground. IADK is very strong in footsies since Bayo's foot will crash into her opponent from higher up, often avoid the hitbox on her opponents poke. Its especially strong vs Dtilts.​

Grab:
Not to be slept on. Uthrow leads to combos at low percents and her other throws are good for positioning. Bayo can make opponents fearful thanks to her combo-ability especially when Dive Kick is in the mix. Getting grabs is very easy by mixing in some empty short hops then going for a dash grab. Not much to add here. Getting free damage is pretty easy simply due to risk vs reward. When an opponent sees her jump, and you see a shield, you know to respond with a quick fast fall grab.​

Bullet Climax:
Got a really bad wrap when she first dropped, but I find it has a strong niche role as a strong anti short hop option. This move destroys chars that rely on short hop approaches and footsies. A charged climax is an easy 16% or more. Once an opponent stops jumping and stays grounded, then you can start mixing in more Dive Kicks, grabs, and Dtilts. Bullet Climax forces opponents to play a slower paced ground game and then Bayo can run circles around them.​

When you look at all her tools and how different she is compared to a traditional smash character, its easy to see why many people aren't "getting" her. Shes very very unique. She has TONS of options and is NEVER without an answer.

But seriously tho...dive kick and witch twist. Use them. Abuse them. Love them. They are crazy good. And dtilt. UGH. Dtilt.

Combine all her options with her mobility and you have a char that just flows seamlessly across the battlefield and never feels limited.

Advantage:


Disadvantage:


General Stage Opinions (2/19/2016):

Pick:


Ban:


Character Dependent:


Movement:

Introduction:
Coming Soon!​

Techniques:

Perfect Pivoting:

Foxtrot:

Foxtrot Dancing:

Dash Dance:

Extended Dash Dance:

Short Hop AirDodge:

Shield-Stepping:
Specials:

Bullet Climax:

Heelslide:

After Burner Kick:

Down After Burner Kick:

Down Air:


Playstyles:



Miscellaneous Topics:

Pikmin Jank:

1. Bat within makes all pikmin fall off you instantly. Bat within is triggered by latched pikmin hitting you.

2. Witch time can be triggered by latched pikmin hitting you, but you must be close enough to Olimar for the witch time hitbox to hit him(it extends a bit beyond the purple aura) just like with other projectiles.

3. Shorthop hold Uair is good for getting rid of most pikmin on you, but can miss some on your head.

4. Doing full heel slide gets rid of all pikmin on you and kills retreating ones.

5. Dtilt is good for getting rid of pikmin on your lower half and killing retreating ones.

6. Uptilt is good for getting rid of pikmin on your front and upper half, and killing incoming ones.

7. All bullet arts and all other moves are pretty much useless.

8. Be wary that while pikmin are on you they constantly cause hitstun, essentially giving you terrible framedata on everything you do. This can mess up combos and timings, and make you much more punishable.​

Bayonetta's Crouch:

Can Crouch Under:
Shiek: Uncharged Needles
Fox: Laser
Falco: Laser
Diddy Kong: Monkey Flip
As well as a plethora of Aerials and other moves with high Hitboxes

Applications of Crouching:

Fuzzy Shield: (Is this it's actual name?)

Because of Bayonetta's low crouch, she has an easy time Perfect Shielding. You may be wondering, "what the heck does Crouching have to do with Perfect Shielding?" Well, think no more! Bayonetta has a low Hurtbox and high Shield (Due to her height) Thus, she can Crouch to lower and minimize her Hurtbox, and then Shield to get an easy Perfect Shield, because of the size of the Shield compared to her Hurtbox. It is extremely safe and makes it so you can wait longer before activating Shield, assuring the Perfect Shield.​


Frame Traps:

Tools:
Uair (Hold)
Nair (Hold)
Twist
Bair?
Traps:

Uthrow:
Uthrow-Uair (Hold):
Info: This is a kill confirm at high percents, but is rather frame tight. Holding Uair guarantees a hit and damage if the Uair misses.
Uthrow-Uair-Twist (Unconfirmed):
Info: A Uthrow-Uair can be airdodge at medium percents, but a Twist follow-up is possible, as momentum in airdodges is cut out of hitstun.
Dthrow:
None known
Bair:
Bair-ABK (Unconfirmed):
Info: It seems that this would work. The opponent airdodges the Bair, and then Bayonetta should be able to follow-up with a ABK/diveKick.​


Recovery:

Tools:
Twist
ABK
DiveKick
Dair​

Overview:

Edge-Guarding:

Tools:
Dair
Nair
Bair
Uair​

Overview:

Ledge-Guarding:

Tools:
Bullet Climax
Dsmash
Dtilt​

Overview:

Set-ups:


Bat Within:

Info:

Frame Data:
Spotdodge:
Start: 1-4
End: 00-00
Roll (F):
Start: 3-5
End: 00-00
Roll (B):
Start: 3-5
End: 00-00​
Airdodge:
Start: 1-4
End: 00-00​
Witch Time:
End: 17-29 (Fun-fact, Bayonetta's counter ends on frame 21, so BW will activate as well as Counter from frame 17-21.)​

Applications:

Grounded:
Info:​
Aerial:
Info:

Terms:

ABK: After Burner Kick, Bayonetta's aerial Side Special.
dABK/DiveKick: Down After Burner Kick, sometimes known as DiveKick. This is the downwards variant of Bayonetta's Side Special.
Twist/WTw/WTwist: Witch Twist. This is Bayonetta's Up Special.
Time/WTi/WTime: Witch Time. This is Bayonetta's Counter.
BC: Bullet Climax. This is Bayonetta's Neutral Special.
Neutral (State): The state in which neither character has an advantage.
BA: Bullet Arts. The tiny bullets that shoot out if you hold a move.
Please post more so I can just copy and paste...

Very Useful Non-Stickied Threads:
Combo Thread:
combo-followup-thread-wip.​
Combo Explanation Thread:
kill-confirm-do-you-know-your-timing-and-numbers.​
Q&A, Technique Compendium:
bayonetta-technique-compendium-and-q-a.​
Discord:
bayonetta-discord-group​
Witch Time Discussion:
lets-talk-about-witch-time.​

Things up for Discussion:
1. New Findings! (Excluding combos)
2. New Tech
3. Playstyles
4. Strategies
5. Tier List Discussion? (Minimal)
6. Neutral, Disadvantage, Advantage
7. Recovering
8. Ledge/Edge-Guarding
9. Tech names!
10. Suggestions? Improvements for this thread?

General Rules:
1. No false information. If you didn't know it was false, then it's fine, but don't purposely spread misinformation.
2. Don't get mad if someone corrects misinformation.
3. Don't argue much. Try to keep it minimal.
4. No taunting or demeaning people.

Major Contributors:
@Emblem Lord (Neutral Section)
@Squiiidzoid (Skype Findings)
Sonicninja115 Sonicninja115 (Thread, General Labbing)


Update Log:
0.1 General Outline
0.2 Large Update (Tech, Moveset, Neutral)
0.3 Miscellaneous Section and General Update.

"Squiiidzoid

Also I have the data for dealing with pikmin, and for the angles on the bullet arts explosions(for jab locks and prattacks, and also some combos), should I post that stuff here?


I think we beat him, he's light and dies early, but you need to remember that its almost never safe to do vertical kill combos on him, because he can upair or up b in like 1 frame during your combo which will make you fly offscreen combined with your up b momentum and die. So it's better just to go for damage combos or horizontal kill combos

For one, it gives witch twist a massive distance boost. from my testing on battlefield doing witch twist just before I land, regular witch twist has her feet way below the top platform, but with DJCWT, her feet are way above it. It gives witch twist roughly more than 1.5x the distance, which is massive when talking about a recovery move. Not to mention, you can do this with both witch twists, essentially giving you 3 double jumps.

Not only does this make her recovery amazing, but also, if you use it right she loses practically all her gimpability, as you can do 2 DJCWTs with crazy distance, and an afterburner kick in any order. With this, she can make it back from the bottom left corner of FD, BF, Umbra Clock Tower, Duck Hunt, Dreamland and probably every other stage (in the blastzone, offscreen, right before you die) EASILY, while KEEPING HER DOUBLE JUMP(this is insane, Sheik and Rosalina can't even come CLOSE to doing this!!!). You can even do a Witch Time during your recovery and still make it back while keeping your double jump!

With this, I think it's safe to say she has the best recovery in the game(villager doesn't have hitboxes on his recovery and has very limited mixups). So basically, you should always be doing DJCWT for all of your recovery witch twists. Also, she can EASILY make it back from directly underneath FD, BF and Dreamland while keeping her double jump(no more getting pineappled!). She can also go right under FD and BF and grab the ledge on the other side easily with her double jump. Basically with this, she is completely ungimpable. Unless you get launched or spiked directly into the blastzone and are unable to act before you die, no edgeguarding will work on you, as you can easily recover from literally anywhere on the screen, as many times as you want, while keeping your double jump, since each time you get hit it will refresh both witch twists and your afterburner kick.

You should also pretty much never double jump when offstage too. Even if they stage spike you, most stage spikes don't directly kill but send you to the bottom corner where even most top tiers can't make it back, however Bayonetta can easily survive this. We should also be able to go super deep and as far from the stage as we want with edgeguards, so long as we don't burn our double jump. Also, if you ever find yourself out of witch twists and just a little below the ledge after doing something like an edgeguard or risky mixup, you can afterburner kick into the stage and hold towards the stage, which will make you bounce off the stage and go up quite high towards the ledge. She also has wall jumps, and can climb walls on flat stage sides without any recovery moves left if that wasn't enough.

Not only does this make her recovery broken, it also has massive implications for her combo game. With this she can carry the opponent way higher, making her vertical kill combos kill way earlier. Also, after the complete combo and both witch twists and an aerial, she can still doublejump after them to finish with another aerial! Sorry for being so overly hyped, but I just discovered this stuff and wanted to share it with you guys.

Jumping offstage and holding upair and nair for the bullet arts extension is amazing for gimping recoveries.
Also, when the opponent is descending onstage after being launched up, you can jump up and hold upair, which turns what would be a 50/50 of airdodging or being hit for any other character, into a guaranteed hit/frametrap, because if they airdodge upair still hits them, and if they wait then upaid still hits them. Upair also has amazing range and priority, with a massive hitbox all around you. Being able to do this means that at pretty much any % you can do an upthrow > hold upair, and you can follow up with another aerial afterwards. This esentially gives her a great combo throw, and this should be used as much as possible in the neutral because of how powerful grabs are in this game.

Hey, so in my testing I've been labbing a bit with this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bEVDvfzcvXU

Not the shield break (I am thinking about a version for us, but that's not what I need help with), but the combo. Specifically, the second one. What he does, is z-drop, fastfall, item hits them, footstool, z-catch, wait, z-drop, fastfall, item hits them, footstool, z-catch, and repeat. When the jump eventually gets too small he goes to the side and then shorthops back, with a z-drop to footstool, z-catch, then repeats the whole combo. I don't think the hydrant is necessary at all, as he demonstrates.

Basically, I'm trying to get this to work for bayo. She seems to have the perfect jump height and fall speed to be able to do this. But I'm having trouble doing it with either her or pac-man. The best way to lab it I've found, is vs Mario in training mode, 1/4x speed, 999%, using star rods(bouncy items that behave just like pac-man's items), and then before the combo footstool Mario to get perfect positioning. These combos wouldn't only annihilate pac-man in our MU with him, but would also be possible and practically identical with any other bouncy non-explosive item(peach'es turnips and items, sheik's grenades, robin's tomes and sword, rob's gyro, any of pac-man's items, and villager's wood chip), and could be ended with a dair for the kill.

So the problem with I'm having, is with both pac-man and bayo, I get as far as z-drop, item hits, footstool, but then I either z-drop too late and Mario stands up first during invincibility frames, or I z-drop too early and he gets launched before I can fastfall and get the footstool. So it's a tight window, but it feels slightly easier for bayo. I just wanted to see if any of you guys could get it, and also to share it with you, it's sort of like wobbling, a strict input timing infinite combo, and I think it may eventually be a staple in top level play, after all, some random player in Japan was able to do it consistently so top players should be able to too. Also, I don't think it requires a shield break to start, shorthop z-drops really aren't hard to land in the neutral or as a punish, and are extremely safe. Also if I find some good shield breaker combos with items they're gonna be way too scared to shield them.


I was just getting the framedata from kuroganehammer http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bayonetta where both spotdodge and airdodge have bat within within frames 1-4. And yea, the pikmin stuff is crazily good, not only can you just time an airdodge or spotdodge to trigger bat within and get all pikmin off you, you can also use it to trigger witch time which is kinda broken lol. And the thing with upthrow hold upair thing is crazily good too, it gives her a great combo throw which is amazing in this game, and it kills mario at 125% on FD (no rage, so in an actual match it's more like 90-100%, and even earlier for lighter characters like sheik or kirby). Also please add all this data I'm giving you to the OP(you may want to edit it go make it more compact though, so it doesn't take up too much space).

Btw here is the data on the knockback angles of the bullet arts explosions:

Diagonal: All jabs, dtilt, upsmash front hit, dair, fair 12, fsmash, full charge bullet climax, upair, nair.
Horizontal: Dash attack, ftilt 12, bair, bullet climax, afterburner kick.
Vertical: Ftilt 3, fair 3 up hit, dsmash, upsmash up hit, uptilt, fair 3 down hit(inner not sides).
Spike: Fair 3 down hits(sides not inner).

These aren't necessarily useful on their own, but you can use them to make things like jab locks, prattacks(great with platforms!) etc, and also some combos. And for some reason some of them take like 2 or 3 shots before the explosions start dealing knockback. Any of the ones that send them straight up can be used for combos, especially uptilt. These combos will pretty much never stop working, and only become more true at higher %s. A good one is uptilt bullet arts to witch twist, which can start a long combo. This also makes uptilt amazing for platform shield pressure, as when you are under them you can do uptilt and hold for all the bullet arts, and they can't drop shield because the explosion extends above the platform so if they drop shield they will get hit up by the bullet arts explosions, letting you combo into another uptilt or a witch twist. Also bullet arts totally eat through shield which makes this even better.

And I was thinking, like you said in the OP, we should rename our techs and stuff, preferably to inuendos or Bayonetta references/quotes. I think at least for simplicities' sake we should nickname ABK boost kick, because the name makes more sense, and is less of a mouthful than afterburner kick. Also I think we should rename Double Jump Cancel Witch Twist or DJCWT to something like Witch Cyclone, because it's much less of a mouthful, and the move is kinda similar to Luigi cyclone in the height it gets and how you need to do a double jump right before. It also implies that Witch Cyclone is a direct upgrade from Witch Twist, which it is. And I think the z-drop footstool infinite thing should be called Z-Stooling. I think the upthrow upair frametrap deserves a name too, all I can really think of for ideas are how she's spinning like a cartwheel/blade/hands on a clock.

Maybe because the move in her game is called waxing umbran eclipse the frametrap could be called like Umbran Eclipse, Total Eclipse or Total Umbran Eclipse, because i guess you're like covering the sky with a moon shape and occupying the whole airspace because it's not safe for them to be there. And also I don't want to give too much away before I've fully completed collecting the data for them, but jab seems to be one of her best shield breaker finishers by far, so it should probably have a cool name for when it's used in a shield breaker combo. Since the move is called Skull Barrage, and the rapid jab is loads of glowing skulls, I was thinking something like Skull Bite, Skeletal Bite, Skull Crush, Death Crush, etc. All of these are just ideas, and are also just temporary starting names until we think up something better like an inuendo, bayo quote or Bayonetta game reference.

Oh and the upair frametrap thing can also be done after any move that launches them upwards, like after a combo, or uptilt, dtilt, ftilt, heel slide, upair, upsmash etc, not just after upthrow.

TheReflexWonder:

When it's activated, it starts a whole new animation, rather than continuing the frame data of the roll/spotdodge/airdodge/Down-B cooldown. They have different animation lengths between them. Bayonetta and the opponent triggering Bat Within do not experience hitlag, and the opponent does not transition (if a Jab1 loops normally, holding A will not give them Jab2).

Bat Within causes slowdown on the opponent for most of the animation. While the animation length is long-ish, the opponent's slowdown gives it much better frame data than that would suggest.

Spotdodge BW basically has a FAF of 17. Forward/Back Roll BW FAF is 25. Airdodge BW FAF is 22. Down-B BW FAF is 29.

This means that her Frame 1 BW spotdodge gives her +13 extra frame advantage compared to her normal animation (or +9 if you compare it to the first true invincibility frame, which is Frame 5). Bat Within seems truly outrageous.

Lavani:
No vulnerability if ledge snap above horizontal.
http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-69#post-20907002


Yea, witch time can't be b reversed, like you said, the inputs are the same as a RAR, but you jump cancel/buffer the witch time. And yea, it's really useful cos it makes it super easy to have the counter triggered.

And for the moves I'm having trouble against, is against certain characters, like Mario, pika, and sonic. For Mario, it's really any lingering or multihitting moves, that also happen to be pretty much lagless and safe on shield. Such as dair, bair, nair, fireball, and dash attack. A lot of these also beat spotdodges, like dash attack because it lingers so long. Also pika is similar to Mario, with the thunder jolts being just like the fireballs, but also having multihits like dsmash, nair and bair that do the same things. I have trained myself to perfect shield very reliably, but due to how fireball and thunder jolt work if used correctly, when they use it on the approach, even if I perfect shield it they have a big frame advantage. As such even if I perfect shield them they can true shield combo it into a grab while I'm in shieldstun.

And the other moves, when I try and punish them by dropping shield and going for a grab punish or something, I just end up getting punished for trying to punish them, because what they did was safe. And for sonic, he has a ton of moves that are lingering hitboxes or multihits or something, that all seem to beat witch time and her other moves, such as spindash, spincharge, homing shot, upair, fair, dash attack, upsmash. The issues I'm having also apply to when I'm above them being juggled, or on a platform above them, they can just safely use these moves and if I witch time then I still get hit. But yea this is more specific, and thanks for the help. I don't really use divekick and Bair enough in my neutral game currently, and whenever I've used Bair in a match I usually end up having terrible spacing and just getting shieldgrabbed or something, but maybe I just need to practice it more.

Also, does anyone know where the bair sweet and sourspots are? It's quite important for making it safe on shield, and also for killing with it. And I saw some people saying bat within looks slow, but actually, when bat within activates, it slows down you and the opponent for a slow mo effect, but it's actually pretty fast if you factor in the opponent being slowed down too. And for some reason whenever I do Nair or bullet arts Nair on shield it's really unsafe and I get punished. Also I guess a big part of the problems I'm having, is what should I use as an anti-air against high priority aerials? Also preferably safe if they airdodge it. I was thinking uptilt but the marios often go for tomohawk bairs or dair descending from above/a little behind me.

And please could someone test the bullet climax cancel needle fidgeting thing? I think it would be suuuper useful for her movement options and gameplay. Also, I think we should look into doing ABK from the ledge/shorthop buffered ABK/SHAD ABK through shield, and then Bair after. If it hits them, it combos them for a sweet 19% and possibly a kill, and if they shield it, it's safe on shield, and because of how it's spaced, if they chase you and try and punish, they either eat a Bair to the face, for 13% and possibly a kill, or if they shield then it's just a perfectly spaced Bair on shield and so unpunishable, weakening their shield by 19% (shields have 42 health, although apparently that number may not be totally correct).
I've tried this some days ago, I don't remember if witch time is one of those moves which cannot be b-reversed (like mario's downb), but I was able to do this on the ground while running with the same inputs you use to do a RAR bair
First off, I really like the idea of that tech. I never thought of utilizing the B reverse (you are B reversing it, right?) like that, but it sounds useful. I have complained about this, im not sure if its here or in another area of smashboards, but all the counters that stall or dodge for a bit are so annoying! You are COUNTERING, don't DODGE, just get hit so you can counter! I have done so many counters where the slight stall makes them miss a smash, then I just get punished because counters all have horrific endlag.

The moves that beat Witch Time aren't generally great moves for using in the neutral. Usually a feint combined with either a divekick or bair can punish these options. I can't think of any move that beats Witch Time cleanly that can be used in neutral to a strong effect, can you give some examples of what troubles you?

Everything beats our smash attacks, they are projectile priority. This is fine, because Bayonettas smash attacks should be used in neutral extremely sparingly. I know it is tempting to try and use their range to get something going, but it really isn't worth it. They are slow and predictable, and extremely punishable. Only use the smash when you know it will hit.

In general, Bayonetta's dodges aren't the greatest. And she is rather delicate. I wouldn't spend nearly as much time dodging with Bayonetta as you do with most characters, they aren't good and she can't stand too many hits. Use a mobile neutral to get in, space your extremely low lag aerials (nair and bair) to pressure them. If they are using a move that cleanly beats our moves, chances are it is fairly punishable. Use calm, collected spacing (people might call what I see here 'microspacing', but I think that is a dumb term) to work your way in. If they whiff hard, HSK can punish.

In general, fighting games are rock paper scissors, and you need to beat them by choosing your correct option. For example, spaced bairs are extremely strong. If they beat your spaced bairs by using some tool, come at them like you are going to do another spaced bair. Then, jump away and up; if they react with the move that usually beats your bair, you can probably punish it with divekick.

Without specifics, I can't really help you more than the basics I gave you there. Do you have any specific moves which are giving you trouble, or even a video for critique?

Zoning is kinda tough on Bayonetta, but know that your reward is exponentially higher than theirs for their projectile hits. So be patient. Walk on the ground and powershield each projectile (if you can't do this, practice practice practice! you should be able to powershield most projectiles on reaction, the large window in this game combined with how skinny bayonetta is means it isn't hard, you can have it down in a few hours easy), encroach on their space until their back is to the ledge, then start scoring some hits. Most projectile characters don't have a great recovery, so push them off the ledge and end their stock there! After that,they have to approach you, so you hold all the cards and they can't zone any more =D
Hey, I just wanted to share a neat bayo technique I found, reverse jump cancel witch time. The uses of this are, normally witch time makes you move backwards, which can make it hard to use against approaching moves, aerials and projectiles and time correctly. However, this makes you move forward, and she also swings her leg forward in a cartwheel animation, giving it a MASSIVE counter trigger hitbox. This can be done from a run, and it's main use is getting through spacing and projectile zoning walls, when you're at mid to close range. This is useful, as this is one of her big weaknesses.

Also, I've been having some issues with my play, and I was wondering if you guys could help me. One of the things I'm really struggling against, is people abusing moves that beat witch time, such as lingering moves or multihits, which quite often just still hit you when you witch time them, or sometimes just beat your smash attacks. Also, with them using these moves a lot in neutral, I can't find a way to beat them, as they quite often outlast and beat her dodges which have quite bad framedata, are often safe on shield, and beat most of her moves, and they especially beat her smashes.

I've also been struggling at getting in against characters with strong zoning and spacing games, especially with projectiles. Any help with these would be greatly appreciated, thanks

Also, I've been looking into bayo having the ability to cancel her bullet climax charge into things, like sheik's needle cancelling and needle fidgeting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=99vpSSd68U4

I have been unable to successfully do it in my testing, but I also can't do it for sheik, so It is probably me at fault. It may also help to know things like what frame it starts charging. Assuming it works like sheik's needles, there would be many powerful uses for this, especially in the air. With sheik's, in the air she can cancel it into any special, including needle charge again. For sheik the needle fidgeting itself is pretty useless, but for bayo, each time bayo charges bullet climax, she has her momentum cancelled and hovers in the air for a long time. I also tested, and no matter how many times you use it in the air before landing, it still stops your momentum to the full extent, unlike witch time.

Because of this, when high up, she would be able to hover in the air for a very long time, only descending very slowly. You can also b reverse any of them. When you are done, you could cancel it into an airdodge, witch time, witch twist, ABK, divekick, or even release the charged bullet climax bullets. This could be useful for mixing up landing options, stalling, recovering mixups and stalling, edgeguarding mixups and stalling, etc. It may also be useful in the neutral, letting you full/shorthop into the air and then hover for however long you want, and then divekicking towards them when you want, or witch timing if they try and attack you. So please could someone try and lab this, it would make sense for it to exist, due to how her cancelling mechanics work.
 
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Theosmeo

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This seems cool, I'm excited to learn peoples strategies. I'm wondering what the optimal offensive neutral is myself.
 

meleebrawler

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Preliminary matches suggest a passive approach works best. Space your moves while chipping Bullet Arts and study your opponent's habits so that you can hit them hard when it counts. A relatively safe burst movement attack is downward Afterburner Kick.
 

Sonicninja115

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Preliminary matches suggest a passive approach works best. Space your moves while chipping Bullet Arts and study your opponent's habits so that you can hit them hard when it counts. A relatively safe burst movement attack is downward Afterburner Kick.
She really matches my style so I am guessing the same. Spacing is key with her, as well as the ability to read DI.
 

pikazz

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she is really great! but I think she struggles a bit against those who can create a wall like Link, Toon Link, DHD, Villager.
however, once she actually between the wall and the opponent she can wreck ****
 

Flamegeyser

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Yeah, I wanna find out how to deal in the neutral and how to approach, both of which are quite hard for me atm.
 

Sonicninja115

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Nair is godlike for edge-guarding. Lasting hitbox, good angle, easy to recover afterwards. It is very nice.

If anyone could get pictures or tell me how to get good pictures of all of Bayonetta's moves that would be great! I want them for the moveset analysis.

Is it possible to take a photo directly from a youtube vid?
 

Shrimpchris

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Nair is godlike for edge-guarding. Lasting hitbox, good angle, easy to recover afterwards. It is very nice.

If anyone could get pictures or tell me how to get good pictures of all of Bayonetta's moves that would be great! I want them for the moveset analysis.

Is it possible to take a photo directly from a youtube vid?
Full screen and press prt sc, then copy it into paint and save as whatever.

That's the best I got.
 
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deepseadiva

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My day two analysis:

Uhmmmm shoot them with the guns. Down angled After Burner Kick is the world. Learn yo combos. Spinning uair seems to eat a lot of landings recoveries. Kill with dairs. This is the best counter in the game......... and everyone knows that. <_<
 

XakYm

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You can shield jump out of her neutral B, only if you input jump to L (Pro Controller) or anywhere easy to press. Its not really new tech but using her B moves out of shield can be good option.
 
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sirchadakiss18

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"Witch Time timer will stale if you use it repeatedly (even if you don't counter opponent) so spamming it (even if you don't counter someone) will diminish the timer for when it actually is in use. only way to remedy this is to let time go by (A few seconds) and Witch time will be like new."

 

Xpwnage123

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I've been play Bayonetta non-stop, and currently have 70 games with her. Here are some random tips that I figured out along the way.

1. Her jab is very great. You should always go to the multi-hit variant and let it run its course, since it's difficult to get out of. Also, you can use it as a follow-up to one of your smash attacks. Generally, people think that your smash attacks have a lot of lag and will try to punish you after. Just jab right away and they will have a hard time punishing you.
2. The dair is amazing if you use it right. I killed Corrin at the ledge of FD while he was at 60%, making me come back from the game. It also completely shuts down lots of recoveries, and you can always come back with a forward B or up B.
3. For approaching on the ground, I generally use ftilt, forward B and the occasional grab. If you hold B down for the right about of time after your Forward B, you can almost always follow it up with an up B then another forward B (plus uair or bair depending on percentages). Just vary up your approaches because if you spam the forward B too much they will start catching on.
4. For approaching from the air, I generally throw out a lot of n-airs or downward forward B attacks. The forward B combos into a lot of things and the nair is very safe.
5. Speaking of nairs, this is possibly one of her best attacks. I SH nair a lot and it's a very good poking tool. It's also really good for covering your ass. Say if you up-b but miss the follow up, you can just use your nair and it will cover your landing. You can time it two ways. Either you jump and immediately press A, or jump, wait, and then press A right before you land (which functions similar to ZSS's nair or Rosa's lunar landing). It's hitboxes are disjointed, come out quick, and there's no lag to it.
6. This one is a bit gimmicky, but it actually works for me a fair amount. If you dsmash near the ledge and someone grabs it, you can turn around and usmash and it will generally hit them as they are coming up from the ledge. Since they see the giant boot hitbox from the dsmash, they assume the best way to recover onto the stage is either jumping or rolling, so if you turn around and usmash it will generally cover both of these options.

Overall, I think Bayonetta has a ton of potential and she's a blast to play. In my second day playing her, I'm already having success with her, so I can't wait to see the things she can accomplish after she develops further.
 

pikazz

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DAir might have a "slow" hitbox frame, but OoS SH DAir is a really great tool to kill with (speaking with the landing DAir) at kill%.

if shorter, its better to OoS ABK or WT to combo
 

KirbyMonadoBoy

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I also already played almost 100 matches with her and she is simply amazing, love her!

Her D-Air is actually really strong and is (besides her F-Throw) probably her easiest killing option at higher percents. Furthermore D-Air is a really good meteor and I love using it off-stage (and then recovering with jump, side-b and/or up-b). It can kill many characters starting from 0% (at least against many players in for glory) and definitely one of the best spikes in the game, imo.
 
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Crudele

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My neutral game so far has honestly consisted of a lot of heel slides, fishing for set ups into witch twist combos. Dtilt > fair1 > witch twist > whatever you want has been working pretty well, and I've killed off the top with it as early as 50%.

If they're shielding a lot, I try to condition them out of their shield with fthrow for stage positioning and damage, since I haven't had too much success with dthrow or uthrow combos. Does anyone here have a typical throw combo they go for when they get a grab?
 

Sonicninja115

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You can shield jump out of her neutral B, only if you input jump to L (Pro Controller) or anywhere easy to press. Its not really new tech but using her B moves out of shield can be good option.
Diddy kongs use this as a bait option. They can do many things out of charging a Popgun. It doesn't look like Bayonetta can IPC though.
 

Rawbinator

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Btw, you don't HAVE to QCF to do downward side B. It's just one way to do it, I believe the key is to be in the fast-falling state when side B is inputted
 
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ncncope1

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Hitbox on her neutralB is kinda weird. I've had opponents standing right next to me not get hit at all. Other than that, sideB combos into upB really well if you get her to do the kick at the end (I'm not sure what causes this, but I think it has to do with distance.)
 

Action Kazimer

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sideB combos into upB really well if you get her to do the kick at the end (I'm not sure what causes this, but I think it has to do with distance.)
Just hold B during the After Burner Kick for the launcher.
 
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XakYm

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Diddy kongs use this as a bait option. They can do many things out of charging a Popgun. It doesn't look like Bayonetta can IPC though.
What is IPC? Also if practiced enough, you can do aerial down B towards the ground but its really tough.
 

Sonicninja115

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What is IPC? Also if practiced enough, you can do aerial down B towards the ground but its really tough.
Instant Popgun cancel. I there is a thread talking about it on the Diddy boards, but it is really complex.

Do you mean side b? If you do the haduken input you will fly down, and if you hit the ground you will slide a bit. Is this what you are talking about?
 

XakYm

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Do you mean side b? If you do the haduken input you will fly down, and if you hit the ground you will slide a bit. Is this what you are talking about?
Yes, doing the downwards after burner kick out of shield is something I was thinking to experiment.
 

Smoking_Hot_BBQ

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There are also follow ups out of the (disclaimer: not actually a cancel) "Fair cancel" that I think add to the character, but I can't figure out how land with fair1.
 

Parisienne

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(disclaimer: not actually a cancel) "Fair cancel"
Mmm, this is pretty much post of 2016 for me so far. Good job!

I certainly appreciate the amount of effort people are trying to put into Bayonetta but people are prone to trying to call things names as if they're techniqiues, when they're really not. This is just a Fair1.

Also what's this chat about f-throw killing. At what percent? Even the CPU is living at high percents from it.
 

Stylin'

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Anyone else finding an issue with the lack of Bæonetta's priority, both aerial and ground? It sometimes feels like I should see the moves hit but they either trade or get beaten
 

Sonicninja115

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Mmm, this is pretty much post of 2016 for me so far. Good job!

I certainly appreciate the amount of effort people are trying to put into Bayonetta but people are prone to trying to call things names as if they're techniqiues, when they're really not. This is just a Fair1.

Also what's this chat about f-throw killing. At what percent? Even the CPU is living at high percents from it.
It kills with rage and 120+%
is bayos upb safe on shield?
If they are shielding next too you and you WT, no.
There are also follow ups out of the (disclaimer: not actually a cancel) "Fair cancel" that I think add to the character, but I can't figure out how land with fair1.
DI'ing away negates Fair 1 combos. However, I am pretty sure Fair 2 is better for comboing and cannot be DI'ed as well.
 

Parisienne

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Aha, that's certainly not nearly as good as people claim but I didn't even consider rage when I was wondering how it's done.
 

BlackCephie

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Yeah, I wanna find out how to deal in the neutral and how to approach, both of which are quite hard for me atm.
Full hop nair bullet arts is amazing in neutral. Auto cancel into bullet climax for pressure and defense. BC eats through every projectile ive seen so far.
 

Jaxas

Smash Lord
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My neutral game so far has honestly consisted of a lot of heel slides, fishing for set ups into witch twist combos. Dtilt > fair1 > witch twist > whatever you want has been working pretty well, and I've killed off the top with it as early as 50%.

If they're shielding a lot, I try to condition them out of their shield with fthrow for stage positioning and damage, since I haven't had too much success with dthrow or uthrow combos. Does anyone here have a typical throw combo they go for when they get a grab?
Unfortunately after some tests, we basically get absolutely nothing off grabs when they DI. (This tested on 100 weight characters, so heavies might be combo-able?)

But yeah, grabbing is pretty much useless except as a way to punish shield directly; no followups :/

There are also follow ups out of the (disclaimer: not actually a cancel) "Fair cancel" that I think add to the character, but I can't figure out how land with fair1.
Most reliable way I've found to do it is, while falling, flick forward on the Cstick and FF with the analog stick; you seem to be able to cancel the little pop-up thing with the FF. It's the only way I've been able to get Fair1->Fsmash to combo (and WOW do I love that combo, because I'm terrible at all the others right now >.>)
 

bitt-d

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Aug 3, 2015
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Kaidaman
I've played a decent amount of games as Bayo and I think she has a lot of potential and I believe she's more passive for sure, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to deal with aggressive play styles like Falcon who likes to Dash-Grab and other rush-down like characters. Has anyone faced a similar problem? I usually don't have this using Mario or Fox since their jabs can keep him out pretty good, but while Bayo's jab is really great, it doesn't work similarly to theirs.
 

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
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Sep 8, 2014
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Canada, Quebec
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meleebrawler
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I've played a decent amount of games as Bayo and I think she has a lot of potential and I believe she's more passive for sure, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to deal with aggressive play styles like Falcon who likes to Dash-Grab and other rush-down like characters. Has anyone faced a similar problem? I usually don't have this using Mario or Fox since their jabs can keep him out pretty good, but while Bayo's jab is really great, it doesn't work similarly to theirs.
You could, and this is something I need to start implementing, fake out Bullet Climax (shield cancel0 at a distance to give them pause, or Witch Twist then down Afterburner Kick to get away (with the benefit of being able to start a combo should the twist land).
 

Sonicninja115

Experiment. Innovate. Improve.
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
2,429
Unfortunately after some tests, we basically get absolutely nothing off grabs when they DI. (This tested on 100 weight characters, so heavies might be combo-able?)

But yeah, grabbing is pretty much useless except as a way to punish shield directly; no followups :/


Most reliable way I've found to do it is, while falling, flick forward on the Cstick and FF with the analog stick; you seem to be able to cancel the little pop-up thing with the FF. It's the only way I've been able to get Fair1->Fsmash to combo (and WOW do I love that combo, because I'm terrible at all the others right now >.>)
Do you know if Fair 2 is better for combing? It seems so, but I want confirmation.

Kangaexe Kangaexe the opponent can DI away on Fair 1, though fair 2 might work.

The opponent can probably DI down on the second ABK to escape it, however, the first ABK could true into Uair.

Is there a butter zone were DI won't let you escape anything? It seems like ther would be a 10% window.
 
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