Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

[Dtlt]

I do, I was just lazy . Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D2lIlT_Qk4

Any tips for this? Can't seem to connect the last upair. Doing this in training mode shiek and I both have 40%. Could that be the issue?

 

[DunnoBro]

It pops them up so they won't be able to shield, but jumping away lets them avoid it. It does however beat nairs (tested vs luigi and yoshi) Also, you can snipe their jump by just finishing the combo. Considering how the jab tends to send people offstage, this can be pretty damning as well.

Also, speaking of testing vs luigi, it seems like the only way you can punish his landing nair optimally with witch time is dair > upsmash.

The hitbox of usmash is disabled on his nair. I think it's intentional to beat nairs this way since the little flip away bayonetta does for witch time positions her just about perfectly to accomplish this. Also, since it actually puts them in hitstun I can see this being optimal vs higher opponents.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I can't test this for myself right now, but if this is a true combo it could really improve our neutral. Jab is far easier to connect than Dtilt IMO.

Great find.

I've tried this on people, but they usually just mash jump and get out of it.

 

[Otterz]

I've tried this on people, but they usually just mash jump and get out of it.

Oh well, good mixup.

 

[Pseud0]

Alright, so, I made a video showcasing the Climax Cancelling!

EDIT: That video kinda sucks but whatever

 

[bitt-d]

I may be doing something wrong, maybe it's the stage or something, but I've tried utilizing Bayo's Dair to kill and sometimes I can return and sometimes I just flat out kill myself, is there something specific you have to do/cancel or is it dependent entirely on the stage?

 

[Saykrd]

Any tips for this? Can't seem to connect the last upair. Doing this in training mode shiek and I both have 40%. Could that be the issue?

It should be doable in training mode just fine. Make sure you ABK right after WT ends as opposed to interrupting it.

 

[Smoking_Hot_BBQ]

One of my friends was testing what I mentioned earlier and he said that it worked on puff up to high percents with no di.

 

[Action Kazimer]

It should be doable in training mode just fine. Make sure you ABK right after WT ends as opposed to interrupting it.

Is your double jump right before the second Witch Twist? I've been having a hard time properly working the second jumps into my combos without sending myself way off track.

 

[DunnoBro]

Due to the stall it's really just trading off positioning for hitboxes. Doesn't seem worth it unless you were intentionally trying to connect with the bullets rather than avoid the lag

 

[deepseadiva]

charge bullet arts

I thought Bullet Arts are the ones that shoot out after her moves.

Charge... Bullet Climax...?

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea, bullet climax

 

[The Puffer]

Is it just me, or if you use d-air after a long air combo the landing lag is reduced to the one produced by down air???

 

[ElMoro995]

Is it just me, or if you use d-air after a long air combo the landing lag is reduced to the one produced by down air???

I've just tried at 1/4 speed, it's quite the same amount of lag

 

[Saykrd]

Is your double jump right before the second Witch Twist? I've been having a hard time properly working the second jumps into my combos without sending myself way off track.

The second WT should be double jump canceled, so after the whole combo finishes you should still have your double jump

 

[Tythaeus]

Alright, so, I made a video showcasing the Climax Cancelling!

EDIT: That video kinda sucks but whatever

I've been diving into more ways of cancelling the landing lag and the closest thing i found was finishing the Witch Time animation before you land. If someone with some time on their hand can confirm this that would be great.

EDIT: The window is a bit strict but it seems you land slightly faster than Climax Cancelling. I'm still working on confirming this.

 

[divade]

I've been diving into more ways of cancelling the landing lag and the closest thing i found was finishing the Witch Time animation before you land. If someone with some time on their hand can confirm this that would be great.

EDIT: The window is a bit strict but it seems you land slightly faster than Climax Cancelling. I'm still working on confirming this.

Couldn't you charge bullet climax and roll out once you land? May not be as fast but definitely gives some good options.

 

[Tythaeus]

Couldn't you charge bullet climax and roll out once you land? May not be as fast but definitely gives some good options.

Yes and no. In situations where you have extra lag and you try to land while charging bullet climax it forces you to perform the move sadly. In situations where you wouldnt have that extra lag you can roll out, etc.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Expect a nice post about her neutral game later guys. And then another post about her trap game.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

i havent seen anyone say this yet, but you JCWT with every WT as long as you still have your second jump. you get a total of 4 jumps and 2 up b.

if everything is done correctly, this means that using our double jump is the VERY LAST thing we should be doing, ever. this also means that bayo is almost ungimpable since if you string her moves correctly you should be able to recover from almost anywhere off the stage, and since you still have your double jump, you can keep on JCWT every time you get hit.

JCWT may also make her BnB combos even better when killing off the top, as JCWT the second WT will make you go higher then you can jump and use an aerial to finish the job.

-------------------------

has anyone found how to jablock with bayo?

ive been able to get people consistently to the upper platform on battlefield with HSK > WT > ABK. after the ABK i always tried to get another one but apparently you can DI out of it making it so that they land on the platform instead.

i tried using BC but they are 4 shots so its an instant getup instead.

if theres a way to jab lock people there we could follow up with a kill confirm off the top.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Mew2King made a guide about Bayo(it was day 1, I'll link it if we want) who suggested spacing with bair and mixing up with dABK, which is what I've been doing to fairly good effect. What do you guys think?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Mew2King made a guide about Bayo(it was day 1, I'll link it if we want) who suggested spacing with bair and mixing up with dABK, which is what I've been doing to fairly good effect. What do you guys think?

It's pretty much what everyone was doing so far. I didn't feel his guide was necessary at this point.

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't want to see anyone's guide until a year from now.

 

[Tythaeus]

I don't see how you can make a guide on a character that was released that same day.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

it was more of a showcase/first impressions tbh

 

[SameOldG]

I've been in the lab testing different approaches and think I may have found a decent mix up for bullet arts nair, cancelling it into ABK (down or up) or Witch twist just before landing for a surprise combo. Labbing it but thought it could be something for others to evaluate

 

[DisidisiD]

I retested and now I see that, upon landing with the BC, you are forced to shoot and it doesn't let you shield. However, one thing I noticed is that you could also just Dair. This reduces air time and the Dair landing lag is only slightly increased due to the increased lag. This might be more superior in cases where you are far above the stage.

Also, I believe nair, bair, and fsmash can jab reset at low percents. I need frame data to see the rest.

Oh and climax canceling sounds perfect. And I agree tech names must be innuendos to some extent.

 

[Beetle Juice]

I believe Bayonetta is best at a "run and gun" passive aggressive neutral game because she can bait a lot of things out and force her opponent to even shield. Explaining in detail might take a while but on the other hand I out up a couple of videos of how I play with her and combo with her. My primary focus is to get damage at a certain distance where I feel I can combo to death, in my case I prefer around 30%-60%. If my opponent can out camp be I am force to approach and apply pressure from close to mid range (EX: Sheik's Needle). I can still combo to death at late percentages with arial side b as my start up but I would prefer to pressure with Nairs and grabs on the neutral and B charge shots at mid or when my opponent jumps. Any who I'm rambling so here are my vids on FG:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUEz42ixqiY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPLg1rf3qbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz2BAqp9KU0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_qbrzNGPYw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qz5wYOYTzI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0m0oitp76Q

#Dexter'sLaboratory

 

[KirbyMonadoBoy]

I may be doing something wrong, maybe it's the stage or something, but I've tried utilizing Bayo's Dair to kill and sometimes I can return and sometimes I just flat out kill myself, is there something specific you have to do/cancel or is it dependent entirely on the stage?

Always do Witch Twist first right after doing the Dair, then do Afterburner Kick towards the stage (if neccesary), then use your 2nd jump and then do 2nd Witch Twist. Important is not to waste your 2nd jump too early, if you keep this in mind, you should always be able to recover back to the stage from pretty much any position.

 

[GHOST4700]

How do you all think Bayonetta will deal with projectiles (specifically ones that you can't catch and throw back.)

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

crouch under them.

 

[Ghidorah14]

You can also jump over them and punish with a divekick.

 

[Pseud0]

I retested and now I see that, upon landing with the BC, you are forced to shoot and it doesn't let you shield. However, one thing I noticed is that you could also just Dair. This reduces air time and the Dair landing lag is only slightly increased due to the increased lag. This might be more superior in cases where you are far above the stage.

Also, I believe nair, bair, and fsmash can jab reset at low percents. I need frame data to see the rest.

Oh and climax canceling sounds perfect. And I agree tech names must be innuendos to some extent.

Glad you like, this is the information we need! Improving this tech is what I'm shooting for. Thanks for your input!

 

[Ornicola]

After searching through Bayonetta's move set I discovered that her back air jab resets, but at terribly low percents.

The strong hitbox has a jab reset on most characters, the exceptions being Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Kirby, Game N Watch, Rosalina, Olimar, Fox, Pikachu, and Metaknight who do not get reset.
Unfortunetly, along with this, characters with thin character models are super difficult to hit (without platforms).
-Falco, Little Mac, Zelda, Shiek, Lucina, and Marth can be reset from 0-10%
-Duck Hunt, Palutena, Diddy Kong, Toon Link, Lucas, Ness, Greninja, Pacman, Roy, Sonic, Robin, Pit, and Dark Pit can be reset from 0-11%
-Luigi, Villiger, Mario, Dr. Mario, Lucario, Cloud, and Ryu get reset from 0-12%
-Yoshi, Link, Captain Falcon, R.O.B, Wario, Ike, Samus and Bowser Jr. get reset from 0-13%
-Ganondorf, Charizard, and Dedede get reset from 0-14%
-Donkey Kong gets reset from 0-15%
-Bowser gets reset from 0-16%

However, the weak hitbox (the hitbox that hits in front of her and a little under her for 10% without staling) can jab reset seemingly every character.

-Jigglypuff can be reset from 0-16%
-Mewtwo can be reset from 0-17%
-Kirby, Game N Watch, Rosalina, Olimar, Fox, Pikachu, and Metaknight can be reset from 0-18%
-Falco, Little Mac, Zelda, and Shiek can be reset from 0-19%
-Marth, Lucina, Duck Hunt, Palutena, Diddy Kong, and Toon Link can be reset from 0-20%
-Lucas Ness, Greninja, Pacman, Roy, Sonic, Robin, Pit, Dark Pit, Luigi, Villager, Mario, Dr. Mario, Lucario, and Cloud can be reset from 0-21%
-Ryu, Yoshi, Link, Captain Falcon, And R.O.B can be reset from 0-22%
-Wario, Ike, Samus, Bowser Jr. can be reset from 0-23%
-Ganondorf and Charizard can be reset from 0-24%
-King Dedede and Donkey Kong can be reset from 0-25%
-Bowser can be reset from 0-26%

The characters that were not tested were the Mii fighters, Shulk, Zelda, Peach, Zero Suit Samus, Corrin, and Bayonetta.
Shulk was not tested because he has many different weights depending on what art he has selected.
Peach, Zelda, And Zero Suit Samus were not tested because their character models were super thin and annoying to hit on the ground. This could have been solved if I threw them on a platform but I'm lazy.
Bayonetta and Corrin were not tested because they were just released and I didn't want to take the time to find out their weights. (I figured out most of the characters reset percents through their weight, I could just check their percents any time I wanted but I'll do it later)
Lastly, I have no idea how staling affects her jab reset.

Unfortunately, this seems absolutely useless in singles, but it can help in doubles combos
Obviously feel free to experiment with this.
Feedback and advice is welcome and appreciated.

 

[Otterz]

I've been wondering if Fair1 can Jab Reset on platforms, but haven't tested it yet. I'm not too familiar with how Jab Resets are determined.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Bullet arts and low charge bullet climax also jab lock. You have to hit the opponent with the close up version of Bullet Arts though.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

bullet climax jab locks. but its extremely hard to do, as you have to do it while falling otherwise all 4 shot will hit and cause an instant get up.

 

[ElMoro995]

You have to hit the opponent with the close up version of Bullet Arts though.

Does every BA move, if done closely to the opponent, have some kind of KB? Yesterday I gimped a falcon with BA fair, but i remember Sakurai told that BA don't stop enemies in the presentation video

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Does every BA move, if done closely to the opponent, have some kind of KB? Yesterday I gimped a falcon with BA fair, but i remember Sakurai told that BA don't stop enemies in the presentation video

The bullets won't gimp, but if you basically touch then with the guns then it'll cause hitstun.

 

[DisidisiD]

Does every BA move, if done closely to the opponent, have some kind of KB? Yesterday I gimped a falcon with BA fair, but i remember Sakurai told that BA don't stop enemies in the presentation video

It has a small amount of kb near the gun itself.

Also, the way resets work is that, if a move has purely horizontal kb (0 or 180) or has an angle less than 180 and low enough kb that they don't raise above the floor, the move will lock. There are more things with moves with angles greater than 360 but I won't go into that. But basically, nair, bair, her guns in bullet arts, bullet climax, and Fsmash all lock at certain percents.