Secrets of The Seven Sages: Link's Brainstorming Thread, Complete AT list and Combos

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

General Introduction and Summary


Hey Link mainers!

This is Foxy here. I am actually a direct descendant from one of the Seven Sages and as such I have been gifted with all their knowledge. My purpose here is to aid Link on his quest.

This thread will be divided up into three main posts.
This post will contain the Brainstorming section. The Brainstorming section will be a place where anyone can contribute anything! Anything you want to talk about, test, look into further or want to say can be said right here. This means that if you found something that you think is cool, if you have an idea that could help, if you want to advance Link's metagame, if you want to overcome one of Link's weaknesses or if you are interested in developing an AT that you see further down, then again, this is the place to talk about it.
I will personally take every post seriously and contribute myself (when I'm online), but this is really going to have to be a community effort if it's going to work.

The second post will contain Link's Complete List of AT's, Tricks and Cool Stuff. I can guarantee that you'll learn something by looking through this incredibly long list. Even seasoned smashboards veterans will find something that they didn't know as I have updated it a decent bit since the last time. This list will primarily serve as a way of recording everything that is known about Link for easy reference, but it will also help to give us something to talk about and I shall be adding to it from time to time when new things are discovered through our discussion in this thread.

The third post will contain Link's True combos, percent specific combos and mix up combos. The True combos are unescapable even with SDI. They will always work as long as you don't screw up. The percent specific combos will only be unescapable within a certain percent range that will change for each character and will be affected by staling and could potentially be escapable earlier than the specified estimated percent range if the opponent has incredible SDI, but for the most part, they are quite reliable and as long as you stay within the estimated range for it to work on, it should always work as they all register as consecutive hits in Training mode. The mix up combos are debatable whether you could even call them combos because they are escapable at any percent range. They rely on predicting the opponent and are merely there for mix ups.

Also, here's a link to Link's frame data just incase you need it. http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=124952

While I would encourage you to post straight in this thread whenever you have something to say, if you are unsure or embarrassed about sharing something in this thread, you can feel free to PM me first and ask me if it's worth posting. I'll give you all the honest advice that one would expect from a descendant of a Sage.

One last thing that should be said before we move on to the actual thread. Don't thank me, thank Scabe for making me.





Link's Brainstorming Thread

So here's how it's gonna work!

First of all, as stated above, everyone contributes by posting things like any tricks/combos/things you pull off in games that you think are cool and could be useful, any ideas you have that could help (brainwaves, if you will), advancing Link's metagame, overcoming any of Link's weaknesses (maybe you have a few theories that you'd like discussed) or if you are interested in developing/discussing an AT that you see in the second post that you see potential in.

Once discussion gets going, I will continue to update this post with your quotes. This will involve the original idea and then any helpful contributions that are made after it that actually go towards some sort of a conclusion or advancement. In the end, I will ultimately be deciding what gets quoted and what does not, which just means that I'll be the one that decides what's useful/helpful. Don't take it personally if you don't get quoted. I probably had my reasons. Just keep trying to post helpfully and productively. On a lighter note, if you don't get quoted, the chances are, I'm just sitting back and watching where the idea is going before I make my final decision. Once I see that the idea is going somewhere, I will be obliged to quote it and only too happy to do so.




Quoted Ideas and useful/helpful responses

Read through this section so you can get instantly up to date with any of the previous discussions instead of having to read through the entire thread. This will give you a general idea of what we are discussing and will help you contribute.



Hyrulian Shield Ideas
There is some interest in looking into the Hyrulian Shield and possible ways to develop it.

Spoiler

What do you think? Do you know of any other ways that we could implement the Hyrulian Shield? Or maybe you can just discuss the Hylian Slide. Have you tried using it in a real game? (If so, how did it work out?) How useful do you think this application could prove to be?



First hit of Bair
What other things could this combo into other than the second hit of Bair? This has a lot of potential for new ideas.

Spoiler

Let's try to develop this further. What does it combo into? How can it be used? Any info on this one would be really appreciated, so if you have anything to add, go for it.



Jab Locks. Set ups and general discussion
Link's Jab Lock can lead to zero to deaths if you know how to use it. I see it as an incredibly importaint part of his meta game that we simply cannot ignore. Let's find new ways to set Jab locks up, finish them off, keep them going, and any discussion about them at all. Perhaps you have a really easy way of performing it? Perhaps you just need help. Let's discuss the Jab Lock!

Spoiler

Well that's where we are atm. If you want to contribute another Jab Lock set up, post it and presuming that it works, I'll add it to the quoted post that has the list of all known Jab Lock set ups. But this isn't all you can post! Feel free to post anything that is Jab Lock related. Anything at all. Suggestions are at the top of this discussion.



Returning Boomerang. (The Gale Return)
This could lead to some interesting discussions. Link's Gale Return has this amazing pushing and pulling effect caused by wind hitboxes. Very strange things can occur with wind hitboxes. Let's discuss the returning Boomerang and possible uses for it!

Spoiler

This is already turning out great. There are so many uses for the returning Boomerang. This shouldn't be a hard discussion to contribute to. Go for it!



Zair Combos
As you should know, Link's Zair has this amazing property where it has two kinds of hitboxes. There's the chain as it comes out and there's the claw snappy thing at the tip once it's fully extended. In order for Zair to combo into other moves, Link has to cancel the Zair early before the claw chomp comes out. So when I say, "Zair Combos", I'm talking about stuff that combos out of the chain hitbox of Zair when you land on the ground soon after to cancel the Zair. Just a warning about this, it means that you give up some of your spacing.

Spoiler

The first hit of Zair cancelled early has great combo potential. What other combos can you find? If you can't test, you can be just as helpful by suggesting possible combos. One such combo I found was....



Zair to D-tilt Spike 0_o
I found after doing some tests with Zair that Link can register consectutive hits in Training mode with a Zair to D-tilt spike combo. This is absolutely amazing! Or is it? There are still a few things wrong with it, like you have to Zair up really close to the opponent and close to the ground, so we need to find ways to set it up. Also, the D-tilt spike is quite hard to connect with because the spike hitboxes get over powered by the normal hitboxes so there's not much room for error. Still, this could be meta game changing as it means that on stage it can lead straight into a Jab Lock if they don't tech the spike and near the edge it can mean instant death. In short, this could be big.

Spoiler

This still needs a lot of input from everyone. Let's try to think of ways to set this up and ensure the spike hitbox to connect. Maybe you can think of a different way entirely to perform this? How about finding out what percents it is easiest to connect the spike on? In general though, we need to brainstorm and find ways to over come it's problems and find new ways to take advantage of it's good points. Remember, this could be big.



BDACUS
The Buffered Dacus is still a relatively new tech and certainly hasn't been given enough thought by us Link mainers. This section is to be devoted to the BDACUS amd its uses for Link, specifically, what should it be buffered out of and how can we use it best?

Spoiler

As you can see, major contribution to this will require a major effort, but don't let that put you off; if you feel you're not up to any testing, then contributions in the form of ideas are also appreciated. So if you have any ideas or are just curious to know if something to Bdacus is any good, then what are you waiting for? Post it up.





What now? Contribute of course!

It's time to contribute. You can add something on to a previous discussion ^ or you can create a new topic of conversation. So if you have anything to share, go for it! If you have any ideas or brainwaves that you reckon could be a good topic, let's hear it!

If you don't have anything to contribute atm, then feedback about this thread is also good to hear.


(Also, any help with getting some more pictures is also appreciated. This thread may as well be epic and look nice at the same time.)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Link's Complete List of AT's, Tricks and Cool Stuff

Welcome Link mainers to the new home of Link's techs.

If you are wondering why I say "new", it's because I actually made a thread that contained some of this stuff a while ago. The difference is of course that there are many new things in here that weren't known back then and this post is now not the main feature that I'm trying to promote. Also I've matured a lot since then.
I realise now that AT's aren't everything. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm still a bit obsessed with them and I love how they can create a lot of interesting discussions, but I realise now that they should not be the centre of one's gameplay. They should only be there to complement your already existing gameplay. I ask that you take this advice and keep it in mind while reading through this list. It's not all bad news though. AT's and Tricks do give you more options and the more options you have, the less predictable and punishable you become. But if you're going to use techs in a serious match, please make sure you can perform them without thinking and you feel like they are already apart of your normal gameplay. If you're focusing on trying to pull off a flashy move in the middle of a game and not focusing on the game itself, it probably won't end well. But again, don't worry too much, I only say this to make sure you practise them a lot first.

With all the serious talk out of the way, here it is.

Stay Flashy!



Index

Bombs
IBomb
Z-Dropping Techs
Sliding Techs
Ledge Techs
Bomb Catching Techs
Spiking Techs
While Holding a Bomb Techs

Boomerang
Phantom Boomerang
Gale Guard
Reversing Techs
Gliding Techs
Zero Lag Catching
The In-between Angles
Boomerang Glitches

Arrows
Quickdraw Techs
Reversing Techs
BCAT
The Jerk

Sword Play
Up-B Techs
Up-B Reversals
D-tilt Techs
Up-smash Techs
Jab Techs
Dair Techs
Uair Techs
Fair Techs
Dash Attack Techs

General
Running/Pivoting Techs
Grabbing Techs
Tether/Zair Techs
Infinite Banana Lock

AT Videos!!!
Bombsliding: Everything You Need to Know
DACUS (Boost Smash) Guide
SSBB Link Edgeguard Guide
SSBB Link Edgeguard Guide Part 2
Link's Ledge Hop Invincibomb
......35......?
In-Depth Analysis of the Ledge Hop Fair




Bombs

Spoiler

Boomerang

Spoiler

Arrows

Spoiler

Sword Play

Spoiler

General

Spoiler

Advanced Technique Videos!!!

Spoiler

Cool, well that's it for now. I hope you learnt something.

I'm gonna get some cake. You should too.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Link's Combos

Well here it is!

Link mainers! Welcome to the Combo section! I'm glad you were able to scroll down this far, in fact I congratulate you, because this is a very important and highly factual post. I highly recomend that you have a little browse of what I have compiled here. I'm sure you'll find something new.


Here's how it's going to work.

First up will be the relatively small section that is by no means the least important. In fact you may say it is the most important. It contains all of Link's known and proven True Combos. I intend to do lots of testing eventually to try and complete this section, but for now we'll have to make do with what we have. True Combos are quite rare in Brawl, so to have any true combos at all is quite a significant claim. These combos cannot be escaped. Plain and simple. Of course, this relies on you not stuffing up, but if you pull it off correctly, I can guarantee that the combo shall be completed.

The second section which will be quite large, will contain all the percent specific combos. These are your more average every day combos. The percent specific combos will only be unescapable within a certain percent range that will change for each character and will be affected by staling and could potentially be escapable earlier than the specified estimated percent range if the opponent has decent SDI, but for the most part, they are quite reliable and as long as you stay within the estimated range for it to work on, it should always work as they all register as consecutive hits in Training mode.

The third section will contain the mix up combos. I'm not entirely sure how popular this section will be simply because they technically aren't combos. They can be escaped at any percent and do not register as consecutive hits. These are merely here as little moves you pull off in games that shoudn't work but do. They will rely on predicting your opponent. For example, a mix up combo may be escapable if the opponent jumps, so you want to predict that the next time you do a certain move, the opponent will not jump but will airdodge.


Anyway, here it is!



True Combos


The Jab Lock

While there is no true combo way to set up a Jab lock, once the Jab Lock is activated (yes activated), there is no way out of it unless you screw it up.

For any information about the Jab Lock, refer to the second post in the Swordplay section where I go into the Jab lock with great detail.


The Dropkick

The Dropkick is simply the first hit Bair being cancelled on the ground right after it's hitbox comes out. The most generally accepted way to perform it is to SH, fast fall asap and hit Bair with the C-stick at the same time as you hit down to fast fall. This will ensure that the Bair is cancelled at the perfect time and it is also quite fast.

The Drop kick, because it has a decent amount of hitstun and it has set knockback, can true combo into a few moves which are a bit character specific.

Dropkick > Jab: It will work on every character except Bowser.

Dropkick > turn around U-tilt: It will work on Mario, Luigi, Peach, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Sheik, Toon Link, ZSS, Pit, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Meta Knight, Olimar, Fox, Falco, Pikachu, Squirtle, Jigglypuff, Marth, Ness, Lucas, Mr GaW and Sonic.

Dropkick > turn around D-smash: This will work on ZSS, Kirby, Meta Knight, Fox, Falco, Pikachu, Squirtle and Mr GaW.



And that's all there is that has been confirmed so far. Hopefully next time you check, we'll have more.



Percent Specific Combos

A quick explanation is in order. I tested all these on Mario in Training mode at varying percents and I added it if it registered as a consecutive hit in combination with DI, jumping, shielding and airdodging to try to escape. So for example, I tested .... > .... on Mario and found out at what percents it doesn't register as a consecutive hit and from that I found the rough estimate percent range that the combo will work at. I have put the CPU on control to input DI, Jumping, shielding and airdodging to get better results (the consecutive hits counter isn't always correct especially at higher percents, so in no way have I relied on it to get these results).

If you want to add to this section, then suggestions are preffered to be pre-tested and resgister as consecutive hits in training mode. I will then test them myself to find the range which will include things like DI, Jumping, Shielding and Airdodging from the opponent.

Just quickly, there will be little sub sections in here, for example, the first one is Jab. This just means that everything in that sub section will be a combo that has Jab as the first hit. It's fairly intuitive, but I just thought I'd point it out.


Jab

Jab > Second Jab > Third Jab: Will work between 60% and 180%. Damage total = 12%.
Just to use this one as an example of how accurate I'm trying to make this, below 60%, Mario can DI down and Shield the second hit, and above 180%, Mario can DI away from the first hit to avoid the second. If you want to know why I've set a percent range the way it is, then feel free to ask me, but I figured I wouldn't add how you can avoid all the combos beyond the given percentage as that would just be helping everybody else XD (like DI away, double jump/footstool, airdodging and so on). So just trust me, when I say it works between this and that percent, it just does and I've checked. The damage total is assuming that the moves used are fresh.


F-smash

F-smash > Second hit of F-smash: Will work between 0% and 20%. Damage total = 31%.


Hard hit of Nair

Hard hit of Nair > Jab: Will only work on 0%. Damage total = 14%.


Soft hit of Nair

Soft hit of Nair > Jab: Will only work on 20%. Damage total = 10%.


First hit of Fair

Fair > Jab: Will work between 20% and 30%. Damage total = 13%

Fair > Jab > Second Jab > Third Jab: Works between 20% and 30%. Damage total = 21%.


Zair

Zair > Jab: Will work between 0% and 50%. Damage total = 8%.

Zair > Jab > Second Jab > Third Jab: Will work between 0% and 20%. Damage total = 16%.

Zair > U-tilt: Will work between 0% and 40%. Damage total = 13%.

Zair > F-tilt: Will work between 0% and 60%. Damage total = 17%.

Zair > D-tilt: Will work between 0% and 30%. Damage total = 16%.

Zair > Dash attack: Will work between 0% and 110%. Damage total = 16%.

Zair > U-smash: Will work between 0% and 40%. Damage total = between 8% and 17%.

Zair > DACUS: Will work between 0% and 220%. Damage total = between 8% and 17%.

Zair > F-smash: Will work between 0% and 110%. Damage total = 19%.

Zair > F-smash > Second hit of F-smash: Will work between 0% and 5%. Damage total = 36%.

Zair > D-smash: Will work between 0% and 45%. Damage total = 18 - 20%.

Zair > Grab: Will work between 0% and 40%. Damage total = around 11%.

Zair > Nair: Will work between 20% and 110%. Damage total = 14%.

Zair > Fair: Will work between 85% and 110%. Damage total = 13%

Zair > Bair: Will work between 0% and 110%. Damage total = 15%

Zair > Standing Bomb Forward throw: Will work between 0% and 110%. Damage total = 12%

Zair > SH Bomb D-throw

Zair > FH Bomb D-throw


Standing Bomb Forward throw

Bomb > what?


JC Bomb Forward Throw

Bomb > what?


SH Bomb D-throw

Bomb > what?


FH Bomb D-throw

Bomb > what?


Grab D-throw?

Grab D-throw > ?



As you can see, I still have a lot to test and a lot to think of to test. Any suggestions are appreciated.



Mix up Combos

I've run out of time. I'll start these later, but it seems that this might actually come in handy.



More to come.

If you want to help then you can suggest any kind of combo that I should test.

 

[Rizen]

Good thinking, FoxIOD!

Could start with discussing the hylian slide?

Basically a worthless Hylian shield tech here unless it's on ice. It could save (normal) shield pressure when blocking Aura spheres/charged shots etc. Shield dash>immediately release shield>Link slides the shield dash distance in his normal stance and the Hylian shield blocks range attacks like usual but with no lag or push-back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY1M7HIUMnQ

 

[swordsaint]

I was thinking that a lot of Link's don't cancel their bair enough on the first hit (cancel it on the ground that is) so they could follow up more.

It's known by everyone, but it's not here anyway.

 

[Scabe]

Nice work Foxy, you work quick!

Could you add these pictures corresponding to each section just to spruce it up a bit?

Bombs

Boomerang

Arrows

Sword

​

And to make it not a wall of text, perhaps you could add collapse boxes for each section.

[noparse][collapse]Insert info here[/collapse][/noparse]

[collapse=bombs]Bombs

Invincibomb (Ibomb)
Probably the most versatile AT that Link has.
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, Jump, use airdodge then hit A Instantly after (Almost at the same time).
Effect: Link will do an air dodge and drop the bomb at the same time. This means that you can hit them with the bomb and avoid the blast and any other attacks at the same time.
Note: This can be used in almost any situation. Whether you’re attacking, defending, falling or rising, this is always a good option and should be used by all Links. Something to keep in mind; the airdoge of the Ibomb can be cancelled with Zair. This AT comes in handy whenever you know that an opponent is going to jump up and attack you in the air, an example is Metaknights's Shuttle Loop. For example, if he tries to gimp you off stage with Shuttle Loop, then the Ibomb will win every time. Doing a SH Instant Ibomb can be quite useful for things like doing a cross up (which is simply where you jump through them and land behind them so they have their back to you).
Stages: All

The Invincibomb Drop
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, Jump, Airdodge and Instantly Hit A at the same time that you would normally C4. So this just means that you either jump through a platform and Ibomb at the right time or drop through a platform and Ibomb at the right time.
Effect: Link will drop a Bomb on the platform just behind him without it exploding.
Note: Very similar to the C4 only you drop the Bomb behind you and you have invincibility frames.
Stages: Will work on any Stage that has a go through able platform. So every Stage except....
Final Destination, Mushroomy Kingdom, Bridge of Eldin, Mario Bros, Green Hill Zone, Yoshi's Island Melee and Corneria.

C4
There are two ways to do this, so there are two "How to Perform"s.
How to Perform 1: Stand underneath a go throughable platform (Like on Battlefield), Pull out a bomb, full hop then Z-drop just as your jumping through the platform.
Effect: Link will Jump up and land on the platform but as he is doing this, he will Z-drop a bomb safely on the platform.
Note: This is the main way that Link Z-drops Bombs on the ground. (Can also be done with an Invincibomb Drop).
Stages: Will work on any Stage that has a go through able platform. So every Stage except....
Final Destination, Mushroomy Kingdom, Bridge of Eldin, Mario Bros, Green Hill Zone, Yoshi's Island Melee and Corneria.

How to Perform 2: Stand on top of a go throughable platform, Pull out a bomb, Hit down to pass through the platform (quickly return the Joystick back to neutral) and Z-drop the bomb as your going through.
Effect: Link will pass through the platform and he will leave behind a bomb sitting on the platform.
Note: This is harder then the first way to C4. You can use the two, one after the other, to leave two bombs on the platform above you. (Can also be done with the Invincibomb Drop).
Stages: Same as above.


Bomb Up-smash
How to Perform: First of all use a C4, Run towards the dropped Bomb then when your right over it use a Dash Attack Cancelled Up-smash (for more information on the DACUS, look in the Swordplay section).
Effect: Link will drop a Bomb on the ground, run at it then do an Up-smash while holding a Bomb.
Note: You can also charge the Up-smash. The Dash Attack part picks up the Bomb then you cancel into an Up-smash. Do I need to tell you what you can do next? Throw the Bomb Up at them and follow up.
Stages: All

Bomb Dash Attack Cancel
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, Jump (SH or FH), Z-drop the Bomb just as you start going back down, as soon as you land hit left or right (depending on which way you want to go), Instantly Hit the C-stick down then Instantly use U-smash (just think DACUS).
Effect: Link will Z-drop the Bomb, then slide across the stage using Up-smash while holding a Bomb.
Note: This is basically the same as the Bomb Up-smash only it's a bit harder to perform and a lot easier to find the time to use in a real match. If you don't understand how this all works, it's simple. The Dash attack catches the Bomb that you Z-dropped and then you cancel the dash attack with an Up-smash.
Stages: All

Slope Bombing
How to Perform: Stand on a slope/slanted platform facing towards the higher end, Pull out a bomb, Jump, Instantly Z drop on the way up, or Jump then Z-drop the Bomb just before you land.
Effect: Link will drop a bomb on the slope without it exploding, the bomb will slowly slide down the hill and will be surrounded in a 'white aura'.
Note: When the bomb is sliding, if your opponent touches the bomb when it is in this state it will blow up and if the bomb touches your opponents shield in this state the bomb will jump up vertically. This can be used as a mine or to combo with.
Stages: This AT can be used on any Stage that has a slope. That said, I'll only list the Stages that this is easiest to perform on (steeper slopes).
Delfino Plaza, Mario Circuit, Pirate Ship, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Pokemon Stadium 2, Spear Pillar, Distant Planet, New Pork City, Summit, Green Hill Zone, Temple, Yoshi's Island (Melee), Corneria, Rainbow Ride, Brinstar and Pokemon Stadium.

The Bouncy Bomb
How to Perform: First of all you need to be on a stage that has the screen moving up and the stage moving down. Pull out a Bomb, Jump through a go through able platform and Z-drop the Bomb just as you go through the platform you're jumping through (think C4).
Effect: Link will Jump through the platform, drop a Bomb which will land on the platform and jump around on the spot with the same 'white aura' as Slope Bombing.
Note: When the Bomb is bouncing around on the spot, the Bomb is 'active'. This means that if an opponent touches it, it will explode on them and if it is shielded by your opponent, the Bomb will jump upwards. This can also be done with the Invincibomb drop instead of the Z-drop.
Stages: Unfortunately this will only work on two stages, Rumble Falls and Rainbow Ride. On Rumble Falls because the 'speed' of the stage is always changing, it can sometimes be hard to do the Bouncy Bomb. The easiest time to do it is when the stage is moving at a medium pace (like right at the start). On Rainbow Ride it can only be done on the left side of the 'circuit' when the screen is moving up and the stage is moving down.

Tree Bombing
How to Perform: Go on to Onett, Pull out a Bomb, Then C4 on one of the branches (Jump through the branch and Z-drop just over it).
Effect: The Bomb will start Bouncing up and down on the Branch because the branch will be shaking up and down hitting it.
Note: While the Bomb is in this state, it is 'active', just like Slope Bombing and the Bouncy Bomb. This means that if an opponent touches it, it will explode. This can also be done with the Invincibomb drop instead of the Z-drop.
Stages: Onett.

JC Throw
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, run in one direction, Jump then instantly hit the C-stick up, left or right (will also work with down, but you will get hurt, so what's the point).
Effect: Link will run then slide a tiny bit and throw the bomb.
Note: JC simply stands for Jump Cancel. Although this is easy to pull off, Link has many other, much better ways to slide and throw the Bomb. So this could be used to quickly and easily run away from your opponent and throw the bomb back at them while running which can't be done with a normal throw.
Stages: All

Bomb Slide Up Throw Fake Out
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, Run in one direction, Hit the C-stick down then Instantly use Up-smash.
Effect: Link will Pull out a Bomb, Run in one direction, Slide Forwards, Throw the Bomb Forwards during the slide then raise his arm as if he were throwing the Bomb upwards.
Note: This is the same controls as the DACUS (Dash Attack Cancelled Up-smash). There are a few variations of this Tech and all are useful. So you should learn how to do this before moving on.
Stages: All

Bomb Slide Up throw
How to Perform: Similar to the previous tech, Pull out a Bomb, Run in one direction, Hit the C-stick Down then Instantly Charge Up-smash.
Effect: Link will run in one direction, Slide Forwards and Throw the Bomb Upwards during the slide, then he will continue to slide a decent way.
Note: This is an excellent way to throw Bombs up at an opponent. This isn't that hard if you can do the Bomb Slide Up Throw Fake Out, the only difference is you have to be a little quicker and you need to charge the Up-smash.
Stages: All

Bomb Slide Forward Throw
How to Perform: Again, these are all quite similar, Pull out a Bomb, Run in one direction, Hit the C-stick Down, Instantly Hit Diagonally Forward Up-smash then Instantly move the joystick to Forwards.
Effect: Link will run in one direction, Slide Forwards and Throw the Bomb Forwards during the Slide.
Note: This is Link's way of Glide Tossing. This really should be learnt by all Link mainers because by doing this it allows you to instantly follow up after the Bomb Throw (amongst other things).
Stages: All

Bomb Slide Reverse Fake Out
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, Run in one direction, Hit the C-stick Down, Instantly Hit Diagonally Backwards Up-smash then Instantly move the Joystick to Backwards.
Effect: Link will Run in one direction, Slide Forwards, Throw the Bomb Forwards, do a Fake Throw Backwards then continue to slide Backwards a decent way.
Note: This one looks really trippy, it's also pretty hard. Another good way to Slide and Throw the Bomb.
Stages: All

Bomb Slide Reversal
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, Run in one direction, Hit the C-stick Down, Instantly Charge Diagonally Backwards Up-smash.
Effect: Link will run in one direction, Slide Forwards, Throw the Bomb Backwards then continue to slide Backwards.
Note: This is Link's other way to 'Glide Toss'. This also should be learnt by all Link mainers. This is possibly the most useful of all the Bomb Sliding techs and also the hardest. This should not be attempted before you can do all the others.
Stages: All

Ledgehop Invincibomb
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, Jump off the edge and hang on to the ledge, Hit Down to let go of the ledge as soon as you can (You can't let go straight away, you need to wait like half a second), Instantly Double Jump with slight DI towards stage and Throw the Bomb Down at the edge.
Effect: Link will throw the Bomb down at the edge of the stage but he won't be hurt because he will still have the invincibility frames from grabbing the ledge.
Note: This can also be done by throwing the bomb Forwards. The only difference is you need to Double Jump slightly later so you don't throw the Bomb over the edge. If you DI towards stage far enough when you Double Jump, you can actually land back on stage in the explosion. This can be incredibly useful because it allows you to follow up. You obviously don't need to pull out your Bomb on stage, just as long as you're holding a Bomb when you grab the ledge.
Stages: All except, Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Circuit, Rumble Falls, Summit, 75m, Mario Bros, Flat Zone 2, Hanenbow and Shadow Moses Island.

Ledgehop Bombing
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, hang on to the ledge, jump up (ledge jump) and hit Z just as Link is about to Jump (You hit jump then a second later Link jumps).
Effect: Link will jump up off the ledge and leave a bomb behind him sitting near the edge on the ground (sort of like C4).
Note: This is an unexpected way of Z-dropping a bomb on the ground. Some opponents might accidently pick up the bomb without noticing. Because Link has very few ways to Z-drop the Bomb on the ground, AT's like this should be learnt.
Stages: All except Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Circuit, Rumble Falls, Summit, 75m, Mario Bros, Flat Zone 2 and Shadow Moses Island.

Ledge Grab Bombing
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, Jump off the edge and Z-drop the bomb just before you grab the ledge.
Effect: Link will jump off the edge, Z-drop a Bomb down the side of the stage then automatically turn around and grab the ledge.
Note: This is best used against characters that recover more vertically as they try to sweet spot the ledge. You will grab the ledge, the bomb will hit them, you won't get hit because of the invincibility frames and you can easily follow up.
Stages: All except Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Circuit, Rumble Falls, Summit, 75m, Mario Bros, Flat Zone 2 and Shadow Moses Island.

Chaining
How to Perform: Catch a bomb in midair with Bair, Dair or Uair then instantly use any other aerial.
Effect: Bair, Dair and Uair are special in that if you catch a bomb with them and try to do another aerial, Link won't throw the bomb. This means that you can chain aerials together while holding a bomb without throwing the bomb.
Note: You can do as many Bair's, Dair's and Uair's as you like then finish with any aerial, but if you try to do another aerial after Nair or Fair, Link will throw the bomb, breaking the chain. Something to keep in mind; If you catch the Bomb with Bair, Dair or Uair and you want to instantly throw the Bomb at your opponent, then there is a way that you can break the chain. After catching the Bomb with Bair Dair or Uair, simply throw the Bomb with the Instant Bomb Throw which you can find a little further down the list. This allows you to break the chain and throw the Bomb instead of using another aerial.
Stages: All

ZAC
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, Jump, Z-drop the bomb at the peak of your jump, then instantly catch it with an aerial (Bair, Fair, Nair, Uair or Dair).
Effect: Link will Jump, Z-drop the bomb then instantly catch it with an aerial.
Note: This allows you to use aerials while holding a bomb. This is good because it means you can follow up with a bomb throw.
Stages: All

IZAC
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, Jump, Instantly Z-drop the bomb, Instantly let go of Z (so you really want to just flick or tap Z as quickly as possible) then Instantly catch the Bomb while rising with an aerial.
Effect: Similar to the ZAC, the only difference being that the IZAC comes out faster and is much more useful.
Note: This is super hard to pull off. But if you do manage to pull it off it means that you can do things like use both hits of Fair in the one SH while holding a Bomb or you can Chain together two Bairs in the one Full hop while holding a Bomb then you can easily follow up with a bomb throw.
Stages: All

Instant Bomb Throw
How to Perform: Catch a Bomb by Hitting Airdodge, A and a direction (Up, Down, Left or Right) at the same time.
Effect: Link will Instantly catch and throw the Bomb without the catching animation. So it's an Instant Bomb Throw.
Note: What's really happening is your catching the Bomb with an airdodge then you're instantly cancelling the airdodge with the throw. This move can also be done by catching a Bomb with Airdodge and C-stick; it all depends on what you prefer. You can do this move to a Bomb that you threw up in the air, or to a Bomb that has been C4'd on a platform above you by jumping then doing it, you can even do it to a Bomb that has been shielded or thrown at you, just as long as you catch it with Airdodge+A+Direction or Airdodge+C-stick. It doesn't even have to be a Bomb, you can do this to a bannana or nade or anything. I see big potential in finding new AT's with this move, just like this one.......
Stages: All.

SHDB (Short Hop Double Bomb)
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, Tilt Throw it Up, Pull out a Bomb, SH, Throw the Bomb, catch the second Bomb with an Instant Bomb Throw Forwards.
Effect: Link will Throw a Bomb up, Pull out another then in the one SH he will throw two Bombs quickly.
Note: This all has to be done really quickly except for the SH Bomb throw because if you do that too quickly you will cancel the SH and just throw the Bomb. This can also be done using a platform, just C4 the Bomb on the Platform (like one of the side platforms on Battlefield) go under the platform and Pull out a Bomb, then SH, Throw Bomb, Catch the second Bomb with an Instant Bomb Throw. It is a great move to pull off if you have the time, assuming you already have a Bomb in hand, you still have to tilt throw it up, Bomb Pull and SH before you throw any Bombs. But once you're in the air this is a dominating move because you can throw two Bombs at almost the same time in the one SH. Now I can see real potential in this because you can also vary the strength of your throws, so you can have two Bombs coming at them at the same speed and distance or at varying speeds and distances. So you could have a strong throw then a weak throw or visa versa. We could even have new techs coming from this. I mean imagine what we could do even if they shielded them both and they both bounce up off the shield. Something to keep in mind; if you Full hop the SHDB, it can be Quickdrawed.
Stages: All

The Invincicatch
How to Perform: Simply catch a Bomb with the Invincibomb (Airdodge then Instantly Hit A. Just remember to keep the joystick neutral.)
Effect: Link will catch the Bomb, airdodge and the Bomb will slowly fall down like a Z-drop. The Effect all depends on what the Bomb was doing before you caught it, but pretty much, the Bomb will instantly slowly fall as if it had been Z-dropped. So a quick example, someone throws a Bomb up at you, you catch it with the Invincicatch, it instantly starts slowly falling or if you catch a bomb that is falling down, it will instantly loose it's momentum and slowly fall.
Note: This can be used to make the Bomb fall through platforms. Simply stand underneath a platform, Jump and catch the Bomb with the Invincicatch when you're just starting to jump through the Platform or you can just catch it at the peak of your SH. To make the Bomb go through the platform, you can either C4 it on top of the platform then Invincicatch it, or throw it up through the platform then Invincicatch it when it's on it's way back down just before it explodes on the platform. The Invincicatch can also be used to Invincidrop the Bomb on platforms. You are not limited to your own Bomb either. You can Invincicatch other things as well like Rob's Gyro and Diddy's Bananas.
Stages: All

Running Bomb Pick Up
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, Z-drop it on the ground in any way you wish (C4 will do), Run towards it, Then just as your right on top of it, Put the Joystick in neutral then Hit A.
Effect: Link will Dash towards the Bomb on the ground, then instead of using his Dash Attack to pick the Bomb up, he will reach down, pick it up and slide a little.
Note: This cannot be done out of the initial Dash animation, Link has to be actually Running. It is essential that the Joystick is in neutral before you Hit A, otherwise Link will just pick the Bomb up with his Dash Attack. Something to remember; This can also be done on other items as well, including Diddy's banana's. It works even when they are in his control.
Stages: All

The Bomb Spike!!!
This is Link's way of saying, "You just got owned".
How to Perform: Simply make a bomb explode on the ground near the edge when an opponent is under the ledge, not hanging on.
Effect: The blast of the bomb will go through the stage and hit your opponent, this will send them up but they will hit the stage and get snapped downwards in a fiery display of ownage. This will doubtlessly result in you wetting yourself (it's worth it).
Note: Your opponent may give up at this point.
Stages: Battle Field, Final Destination, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Spear Pillar, Castle Siege, Smashville, New Pork City, Sky World, Temple, Jungle Japes, Corneria, Rainbow Ride, Big Blue and Pokemon Stadium.

F-smash while holding a Bomb
How to perform: Pull out a bomb or pick up/catch a bomb then hold A, Hit the C-stick left or right.
Effect: Link will perform his F-smash without throwing the bomb.
Note: If you continue to hold A, Link will charge his F-smash. To use the F-smash quickly simply let go of A as soon as you hit the C-stick, then hit A again if you wish. You can also hold A after Rolling, side stepping or any B move. In fact it works for pretty much anything that you can do while holding a Bomb without throwing it (including Pivoting), then you hold A while Link is still in the animation of the move and Hit C-stick left or right.
Stages: All

Zair while holding a Bomb
How to Perform: Pull out a bomb, jump, airdodge, Zair.
Effect: Link will use his Zair without throwing the bomb.
Note: You can also Tether recover with a Bomb using the same technique. This technique is used in the VG Combo. To do the VG combo, simply SH, airdodge, Zair (cancelled on the ground), Bomb throw, Up-smash.
Stages: All

Ledge Re-Grab with a Bomb
(Look in the General Section at the bottom if you want to know more about the Ledge Re-Grab.)
How to Perform: Pull out a Bomb, Grab on to the ledge, Hit Backwards (away from the ledge), Quickly Airdodge and Hit Z twice.
Effect: Link will move away from the ledge, then quickly Zair with a Bomb and snap to the ledge. This will quickly regain your Invincibility Frames while still holding a Bomb.
Note: This is another good way to edgeguard. If you can do it fast enough, it is more useful then the normal Ledge Re-Grab because this way means you have a bomb in hand. Something to keep in mind, because you regain your invincibility frames this means that if the Bomb explodes you won't get hurt.
Stages: All except Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Circuit, Rumble Falls, Summit, 75m, Mario Bros, Flat Zone 2 and Shadow Moses Island.[/collapse]

Anyways, I'm going to help out alot and post up lots of ideas of mine and help record all the AT's etc.

If we can get a video for all the AT's there listed that would be amazing.

If you would like to help, just save a replay of you doing the AT and send the replay to me and I'll upload it.

I may give this a sticky when it gets rolling.

 

[IYM!]

thanks Fox Is Openly Deceptive (do you have a shortest name?? jaja?)

that is helpfull info, link have several of tricks, i need training my bomb sliding, i am starting to master it

thanks for the vids too

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@Anonano: I really appreciate the offer to be saved from Ganon, but Scabe beat you to it. He saved me from Ganon (EA XD (it's an inside joke)) years ago. This is just my way of saying thanks.
I think we could definitely have a discussion about the Hyrulian Shield in general and the Hylian Slide is one good way of using it. I'll post a quick something up the top.

@MES: Or should I call you Risen now? As I said to Anonano, I'll get some discussion going about the Hyrulian Shield. No probs man. Thanks for the post and the link.

@Scoot: Wow, you're on the link boards. Good to hear from you man. That is definitely an interesting thought. Does it true combo into anything? I'm not sure. Which is exactly the point. I'll find out once and for all unless anyone else knows already. I might wait until a Link main responds about it before I quote the idea up the top just in case it's general Link knowledge that I didn't know about (Scabe? Where you at?). This is good stuff so far.

@Scabe: This is what I do man. Those are some sweet pictures, I'll add them for sure. But wait, no general section or AT Video section pictures? Any ideas what we can use for them? That code is a good idea. It should tidy things up. I'll get that happening. I can't wait until you just start flooding this thread with all those ideas like the one we were talking about (what was it, like bomb throw, the bomb hits their shield, you full hop Instant Throw the Bomb down at them, Footstool to Dair or something like that). The attempt has been made to get a vid of every AT before, and I'll tell you that it's no easy task. It really would be amazing if we could get it done though. Maybe I'll help out by doing any of the hard ones (Like The Jerk, it's amazing XD, can you do it consistently yet? I told you I'd be asking about it.) I'll see what I can do to speed things up then.

@IYM: Just call me Fox or Foxy. Fox Is Openly Deceptive is a bit of a mouthful so people don't usually bother.
Link's Bomb sliding is legit, keep working at it. And no worries.


I'm gonna try to update it all in one go. If it doesn't all get done, it will get done next time.
Keep the ideas for discussion coming!

 

[quirkynature]

I was thinking that a lot of Link's don't cancel their bair enough on the first hit (cancel it on the ground that is) so they could follow up more.

It's known by everyone, but it's not here anyway.

B-air cancel? That's definitely new.

Fox, you're a godsend. All these ATs all in one place. Thanks. A million. No joke. This is awesome.

 

[Rizen]

I was thinking that a lot of Link's don't cancel their bair enough on the first hit (cancel it on the ground that is) so they could follow up more.

It's known by everyone, but it's not here anyway.

The landing lag makes it hard to not be grabbed. Sometimes when we're both in the air I'll Bair>Fast fall when the first hit connects>land and Utilt. Utilt/Usmash have farther reach behind Link so Bair (first kick) canceling>Utilt/USmash from a lower position is a good low platform poker.

@IYM: Just call me Fox or Foxy.

Foxy? What, am I Falco from Starfox Assault? Lol. I go by Rizen.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

All done updating.
It sounds like the first hit of Bair could generate some discussion. I'll quote it and we'll see what happens.

@quirkynature: No worries man. It's good to hear that people are getting something out of it.

@Rizen: Thanks again for your contributions. I've got a feeling you're gonna come in handy XD.
Foxy is just what the Aus smash scene call me. You can call me whatever you want.

 

[Huggles828]

Ha, I just glanced at this for like five minutes and already learned something. The revers Bomb toss DACUS or whatever. I never figured out how to actually do it and thought it'd be really useful.

I like cancelling out the bair first hit into utilt usually, but I bet it could combo into other things.

 

[Rizen]

Bair's first kick>Dsmash first cut is a legit combo, I hear. It's almost impossible to space and time because you must land behind the opponent.

 

[Huggles828]

When I do utilt, I spin around before using the utilt. If you hold forward while sliding the control stick up, you can attack as if facing the other way. I wonder if you can do that with dsmash too?

 

[Anonano]

Well, I was using a wiichuck controller yesterday when playing friends and due to the chuck's crappy controller I was pulling off stuff like autocanceled fair into reverse fsmash and dsmash.
Too bad the reverse fsmashes and dsmashes were always the WRONG DIRECTION.
/punished

But yes, you can reverse the dsmash although it will take a few more frames to change direction. Dsmash is still Link's fastest killer, so it'll probably be two or three frames shorter than a reversed utilt, which is shorter than a non-reversed utilt.

 

[Scabe]

I don't know why I never use the first hit of back air. It seems pretty good. It's got set knockback so that things are pretty guaranteed. Even if they aren't true combos.

There's like First hit of Back Air into Back air. I usually do First hit of back air into Uptilt. But I like the idea of Doing a reverse dsmash. Maybe even just doing a Dsmash could be a mind game. I'll test these things out and see what I get.

Anyone know a full list of what Hylian shield blocks?
All projectiles?

Also I wonder if we get any frame disadvantages when the shield blocks projectiles with Hylian shield.

I think it be goot to aim to use our Hylian shield to block all projectiles.

It be cool if we found something really useful with his shield or if we started using his shield more to block projectiles instead of our normal shield. It could somehow frustrate the opponent lol.

When your sliding on Ice and your about to crouch do you still get that slide?

Edit: I just pulled of first hit of Back into fsmash on Zelda. O_O

 

[Rizen]

Anyone know a full list of what Hylian shield blocks?
All projectiles?

Also I wonder if we get any frame disadvantages when the shield blocks projectiles with Hylian shield.

I think it be goot to aim to use our Hylian shield to block all projectiles.

It be cool if we found something really useful with his shield or if we started using his shield more to block projectiles instead of our normal shield. It could somehow frustrate the opponent lol.

When your sliding on Ice and your about to crouch do you still get that slide?

I did a lot of testing in the past.
"Hshield is in effect when Link is already standing or crouching, not transitioning to those states. Link occasionally lets down his guard when standing still and puts his Hshield away when holding an item but keeps a constant guard if he’s crouching. If any part of a range attack hits the actual shield Link will be pushed back and remain unharmed (Fox’s lasers will push him). Link himself can still be hit. Explosions, including Snake’s missile, penetrate it but Link’s safe from moves that continue through like Razor Leaf and Robo Beam.

The only time I’d intentionally Hshield is if the opponent was far and using a big range attack; the constant guard doesn’t deplete Link’s normal shield and it’s easier than power shielding. Big controlled blasts like PK Flash/Freeze and Din’s Fire will be blocked if any part touches the Hshield. Charged Aura Balls and Beam Shot’s are easy to Hshield from a distance." (Written before I discovered the slide)
HShield stops every range attack, explosions and Pikmin aren't considered range attacks. There is slight stun and pushback but not while Link's sliding. Crouching on ice makes Link slide but stops him on normal terrain. Tapping 'shield' automatically makes Link stand from running with no direction input. He slides the distance of shield dashing while the Hylian shield blocks range so you save a few frames of shield drop lag and shield pressure.
It's not great but any lag reduction/shield alternative helps.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@Rizen: Nice post! I'll get that quoted in a sec.


Ok! Link Mainers, I have something fantastic to say. But it will mean a long post. I'll try keep it short, as I intend to quote it. But trust me, you want to read this.

So I wanted to do some tests on the first hit of Bair cancelled on the ground just to see if I could get any "consecutive hits" in Training mode and to get some general info. The consecutive hits are usually a pretty reliable way of getting true combos.
I tested it on Mario and I was able to true combo the first hit of Bair into a turn around Jab. With practise I was also able to barely pull of a true combo with turn around U-tilt as well. (To get the true combos, you need to focus on using Bair at the last possible moment and of course turning around and Jabbing instantly.)
As Scabe said, the first hit of Bair has set knockback, so anything that I say true combos will true combo at any percent.
I tried a few other moves that didn't work like D-smash, Up-B and U-smash, and while I'm uncertain atm (I'll need to test it properly with another player and not just my spare fingers), I'm pretty sure that it can combo into turn around Grab. The only thing Mario could do was double jump just before he touched the ground, but we might still be able to grab him out of the air. We don't have to worry much about people landing then shielding/sidestepping because for some reason they can't shield straight away when they land (hitstun? in brawl?). This discovery made me think that even though with some moves it says it's not a consecutive hit, it might still be inescapable (again, I'll need to test with another person).
I then tried some things on a few other characters and I soon found that different characters were having different results even though it has set knockback. For example, some characters can't even jump before they touch the ground so with them we may have a guaranteed Grab.

I decided to test all characters to see which ones could double jump before they land and which ones I could get a consecutive hit with a turn around Jab. I found something, character specific, yet mind blowing, which I'll tell you in a sec.

Instead of writing all the characters, I'll give you the highlights.

I was able to get a consecutive hit with a Turn around Jab on every character except Bowser. I tested this strange phenomenon for a while and for some reason, Bowser is immune. Some characters were slightly easier or harder to get the consecutive hit with.

Almost every character was able to double jump out before they touched the ground except Bowser, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Ganon, Meta Knight, Fox, Falco, Wolf and Captain Falcon. Some characters were able to double jump sooner then others. With the characters listed that can't double jump, theoreticaly, we should be able to get a guaranteed turn around grab.

And here it is! The big one. As I was going through the characters, I got to Meta Knight. Oh yes. As I have said, we should be able to get a free grab on him, but that isn't what I'm most pleased about. I did the quick test to see if I could get consecutive hits by doing the usual SH, Bair (cancelled on the ground) turn around Jab, and it worked first time. A little too easily.... You see, I'd accidently stuffed the timing up and I had used Bair slightly too early. The Jab should not have been a true combo. For some reason unknown to me, out of curiosity perhaps, I tried to combo the Bair into a turn around D-smash and IT FRIKEN WORKED! I got that consecutive hit I was looking for but not expecting to see. For some reason, the first hit of Bair absolutely owns Meta Knight. He is the only character that I've been able to get a consecutive hit with D-smash (I haven't tested it on all characters yet, but still).
This means that on any percent, as long as you don't screw it up, LINK HAS A GUARANTEED D-SMASH ON META KNIGHT.


I'm off to do some updating. Have fun with that.

 

[Arcade]

So first hit bair > dsmash on MK is guaranteed? That's too cool. That's one more one more tool we can use to tip the scales ever so slightly. Did you try it on other probable candidates?

Just a suggestion, did you try dash attack? Unless I'm dumb and misremembering its speed it might work.

 

[Rizen]

@ Fox: Good data. That is interesting...
Bair first kick data:

--BAir landing animation can happen immediately.
Frame 5: Hitbox out: 4 damage, 4 frame duration.
Frame 17: Hitbox out: 7 damage, 6 frame duration.
Frame 28: Autocancel.
Frame 30: IASA
--BAir landing lag has a frame 10 IASA

Frame 5-9 first hitbox out- faster than jabbing. The reach is almost equal to Fair and covers Link's body. The problem is normal jumping and landing lag prevents consecutive chains.
I wonder if we could Bair on the opponent and use the hitbubble on Link's body to chain with another body hitbubble without turning?:
UTilt:

Frame 7: Hitbox out: 9 damage.
--Angle: Blade: 95. Hilt, Arm, Torso: 85.
Frame 12: end of hitbox.
Frame 35: IASA
Jab 1:

Frame 6: Hitbox out: 4 damage, 2 frame duration.
DSmash:

3 frames until charging. Upon release:
Frame 3: Hitbox out: 3 frame duration. Angle = 75.
--Damage: Blade = 14. Hilt = 16. Arm = 17. Torso = 16.
Frame 15: Hitbox out: 3 frame duration. Angle = 75.
--Damage: Blade = Hilt = Torso = 16. Arm = 17.
Frame 50: End of animation.
GRABS

Standing Grab:
Frame 11: Catch collisions out: 8 frame duration.
Frame 85: End of animation.
FSmash 1:

8 frames until charging. Upon release:
Frame 5: Hitbox out: 3 frame duration.
--Damage: Blade = Hilt = 15. Arm = Torso = 14.
Frame 10: You can begin FSmash 2.
Frame 39: IASA
xX Crow Xx recorded the frame data and pics. Thanks a million!


Fsmash with 'C' instantly turns Link that direction. Grab and Fsmash are the slower options.

 

[Anonano]

And here it is! The big one. As I was going through the characters, I got to Meta Knight. Oh yes. As I have said, we should be able to get a free grab on him, but that isn't what I'm most pleased about. I did the quick test to see if I could get consecutive hits by doing the usual SH, Bair (cancelled on the ground) turn around Jab, and it worked first time. A little too easily.... You see, I'd accidently stuffed the timing up and I had used Bair slightly too early. The Jab should not have been a true combo. For some reason unknown to me, out of curiosity perhaps, I tried to combo the Bair into a turn around D-smash and IT FRIKEN WORKED! I got that consecutive hit I was looking for but not expecting to see. For some reason, the first hit of Bair absolutely owns Meta Knight. He is the only character that I've been able to get a consecutive hit with D-smash (I haven't tested it on all characters yet, but still).
This means that on any percent, as long as you don't screw it up, LINK HAS A GUARANTEED D-SMASH ON META KNIGHT.

I KNEW it. But now that I know who it works on, it makes me even happier.

I wonder if this applies to all Link's set knockback moves, like boomerang. If it does, then we might be onto something character roster wide.

 

[Scabe]

So I've been messing around with this First hit of Back air. Buffering the turnaround Dsmash is hard and I get pretty inconsistent with getting that true combo on the consecutive hits counter (which can be pretty innacurate). But I think this is cool though. It seems like on MK you can do a buffered turnaround Uptilt which is also true combo.

Seems like on heavy characters you can't link into Uptilt/Dsmash, but usually you can link into Jab.

I tested with a bomb, doing a fast falled backair into bomb down throw where it blows both characters. That seemed to be a true combo lol

Anyways I'll get a picture of the hitbox on Link's first hit of Back Air.

 

[Anonano]

Bombthrow into FF bair and turnaround grab/jab should be a true combo at low percents, then.

Well, more reason to learn how to set up bombstools. The dthrow bomb is a useful combo setup at low percents you can't footstool and high percents you can footstool now.

Oh, how we love thee bombs. Thou art our salvation.

 

[Scabe]

Seems like the set knockback on Back air doesn't make a difference to actual bomb knock back.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So first hit bair > dsmash on MK is guaranteed? That's too cool. That's one more one more tool we can use to tip the scales ever so slightly. Did you try it on other probable candidates?

Just a suggestion, did you try dash attack? Unless I'm dumb and misremembering its speed it might work.

Yep, absolutely guaranteed. I did actually try it on a few others after I made it work on MK, because as I said before, some were easier to turn around jab then others, but the ones that I tried, I couldn't get it to work. I'll probably go through the characters again and test to see if I can get a turn around U-tilt on them. I was able to barely do it on Mario, so we should be able to see once I've tested it which characters are easier and harder to combo this out of. Everyone except Bowser I could turn around Jab combo, but I know that there were differences. Some took me quite a while to get it to work, others I got it first try.
Dash Attack should work, you'd probably have to do the Instant Dash attack, and even then, I think I'd prefer to get a Grab or U-tilt if possible.

I wonder if we could Bair on the opponent and use the hitbubble on Link's body to chain with another body hitbubble without turning?

Of course you can. I was able to do this quite easily when I was testing but I didn't think it would be very impessive to report seeing as you are completely giving away your spacing. But sure, an easier way to pull off a Bair to something combo is to land in them and Bair then you don't have to turn around or anything, you just hit them. It would save a few frames as well, so if you can only just not pull something off by turning around, you might barely make it work this way. For the record, I tried to get a Jab on Bowser this way and it still didn't work. He's immune.

I KNEW it. But now that I know who it works on, it makes me even happier.

I wonder if this applies to all Link's set knockback moves, like boomerang. If it does, then we might be onto something character roster wide.

The set knockback has nothing to do with the combos working. Having set knockback just means that whatever works will work at any percent.

So I've been messing around with this First hit of Back air. Buffering the turnaround Dsmash is hard and I get pretty inconsistent with getting that true combo on the consecutive hits counter (which can be pretty innacurate). But I think this is cool though. It seems like on MK you can do a buffered turnaround Uptilt which is also true combo.

Seems like on heavy characters you can't link into Uptilt/Dsmash, but usually you can link into Jab.

I tested with a bomb, doing a fast falled backair into bomb down throw where it blows both characters. That seemed to be a true combo lol

Anyways I'll get a picture of the hitbox on Link's first hit of Back Air.

The consecutive hit counter, if anything, is being inacurate in the completely opposite way. I honestly think that in this case, things might true combo and be unescapable even if it doesn't register as a consecutive hit. So when I say that it does register as a consecutive hit, you can know that it is definitely going to work no problems. On a seperate note, it doesn't register Grab as a "hit" so I can't tell for sure whether or not Grabs are inescapable until I test it with someone else. I am quite sure though that it should be unescapable on some characters, specifically the ones that can't double jump and possibly some others that double jump late.
Turn around U-tilt is faster than turn around D-smash. I was able to get a consecutive hit with a turn around U-tilt on Mario but there was no way that I was going to get a consecutive hit with D-smash. So I'm not surprised that you were able to get am U-tilt on MK. But I reckon that D-smash is easier to perform than U-tilt even though you have less time to do it in. D-smash is definitely the option to go for here.



So, things that still need testing. Turn around U-tilt on all characters (although you can probably skip Bowser). Turn around D-smash on all characters (is MK the only one that gets screwed?). At some point with another player, turn around Grab on all characters. That should pretty much do it, but you never know, try testing a few other options and see what comes up. I am seriously thinking of making this Bair info into a new tech. So should it go in the swordplay section? His feet aren't exactly swords XD.

Oh and I just thought of something that would make things much easier. If possible, we need to find a way to get the timing of the Bair consistenly. You know what I mean? So even if it means jumping, doing something straight away then doing a Bair straight after that automatically gets timed perfectly to come out just as you land. Something along those lines so that we don't have to try to time the Bair perfectly. Then, we want the easiest possible way to perform the turn around moves. Should we buffer the turn around? Hold it? Flick it? Lightly tilt it? I tried a few variations while I was testing and some were easier but some were faster, so this is still a bit of a grey area. Basically, what should be the agreed way to perform this to make it consistent?

You know what I love about this though, it's like we have a Zair on both sides of us now that we can combo out of.

 

[Scabe]

I found one way timing that back air. I would do a short hop rising Back air and then use up my second jump and fast falled so that it hits with the first hit of back air.

You can also Full hop Nair, then fast fall back air. (I think?)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

And there we have it!
Good work.


I would want to check though whether the two extra frames of landing lag stuff up the combos, so we need that quickly checked.

(Once I know for sure that you can do the fast fall Bair and still have the consecutive hits with things like turn around D-smash on MK, then I'll quote that post ^)

Edit: It wouldn't hurt to have a few more ideas though before we say problem solved. I'm sure there must be other good ways to do this. Any other ideas?


Edit 2: I beat you guys to it XD. I found the ultimate way to perform this. It's very simple and it will perform the Bair perfectly, every time (if you don't screw up). You simply SH, Fast fall asap and at the exact same time that you hit down on the joystick to fast fall, hit Back on the c-stick. If you fast fall as early as you can and you perform the Bair at the exact same time (quite easy), then the Bair will always come out at the last possible moment. Which means that if the Bair comes out at all, it has set you up perfectly for any combos. Then it's just up to you to turn aorund and do what you want in the shortest time you can and you can guarantee that it'll true combo.

In regards to my former concern about the extra landing lag, it doesn't seem to affect the combo-ability at all. If anything, fast falling might actually save time because I was easily able to get the turn around U-tilt on Mario where previously I struggled a bit. This may just have to do with the Bair consistenly being timed perfectly, but either way, it appears to be easier to true combo now.

All you have to do is practise the timing for the fast falling.


@Scabe: The first way you mentioned does work, but you have to time the Bair in order to get it to come out at the last moment. The second way also works, but again, you need to time the Fast fall as soon as the Nair ends. In both examples, it is possible to use Bair too early. In my example, as long as you use Bair at the same time as you fast fall, it is impossible to use Bair too early because there is a restriction on how early you can fast fall. That's kind of what I was talking about when I suggested we find a way to time the Bair perfectly consistently. Anyway, there might be a few other ways to perform the Bair consistenly at the perfect time, so we'll see if we can figure some out.

 

[Ryos4]

Bair to Dsmash sounds interesting. Could this be the perfect way to set up a non charged double dsmash? Though to be honest i cant think of any way to go from a GB into a bair in one fluid motion while still being on the opposite side of the GB.

A possible idea is to throw the GB behind you, run at your opponent, jump, air dodge through them, bair, and finally a reverse Dsmash. Though admittedly the timing will be difficult to get use to if this is possible, as well as the possibility of many things going wrong. Such as opponent either attacking before or after your dodge, or moving away. It also just might be impossible to get enough time to do all of that before the GB returns. Though if they shield you can stop and the GB might push them safely behind you making them attack the wrong way. If they dodge the bair, there is still a chance the dsmash will hit.

I am way too lazy to attempt something like this but for those crazy people out there, give it a shot.

 

[Rizen]

Of course you can. I was able to do this quite easily when I was testing but I didn't think it would be very impessive to report seeing as you are completely giving away your spacing.

I meant in the air from above or situations where you normally use Nair you could fast fall Bair and Utilt or something. Bair is best from the kick behind, but there's a lot of potential when Link needs an air attack that covers his body.

Another thing, maybe we could Bair platform poke from under then Utilt/Usmash.?

 

[Ryos4]

NM i dont think its possible to go from Air dodge to Bair. lol Oh well.

Also did you put Bombstool in the OP? I didn't see it.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Did anyone read my edit 2? It goes into the best way to perform the Bair combos consistenly and I was hoping for some thoughts on it. (SH, Fast fall asap and hit Bair on the C-stick at the same time as you hit down on the joystick to fast fall = perfectly timed Bair every time.)

@Ryos4: Finding a perfect way to get the double D-smash sounds like something that we could discuss seperately if you wanted to. I don't think we need to worry too much about implementing the first hit of Bair into the double D-smash combo seeing as for all we know atm, the Bair to D-smash only works on one character and it's probably over complicating things. How about that for a possible idea for discussion though? The perfect way to get the double D-smash? (And yes I understand how it works, I just had to say that incase someone posted telling me how to do it. I'm more talking about setting it up.)

Bombstool?
Is that just a fancy name for a Bomb to footstool (and then you can Dair or fast fall Nair to Jab lock).


@Rizen: In the air, you can't cancel the second hit of Bair and so you can't combo out of it. The only way to cancel it (apart from getting hit by something) is to cancel it on the ground. So I presumed you were talking about cancelling it on the ground and hitting them infront of you with Bair with the hitbox in your body. As I said, I didn't think it was worth saying as it gives up your spacing. But sure, if you're going to land on them anyway, instead of using Nair as a body attack, you could use Bair. Less range, but in that circumstance, why not. Actually, Nair would be safer. Bit if it was going to hit them, then yes you could use Bair and then easilly combo out of it because you don't need to turn around.
It's the same thing with platform poking. The only way to combo out of the first hit of Bair is to cancel it immediately after, as in the hitbox comes out and you instantly land. If the hitbox is coming out when your jumping up and poking them from underneath while their on a platform, how will you cancel it immediately? Even if you fast falled immediately after, it wouldn't be quick enough.



Ok, so does anyone have anything else they'd want to discuss? The shield discussion has stopped for now so we can quite easily start a new discussion. For any ideas for ideas, check out the OP, I wrote some stuff up to help you think of topics. (A new topic would be so sweet right now.)
And seriously, the SH, fast fall asap Bair at the same time, I think this is pretty big as it doesn't allow you to screw up the timing. If you Bair them, then you did it perfectly. If not, then you won't Bair them. With timing and a tiny bit of practise, you can use it to consistently get perfectly timed Bairs. I think this could open this tech wide open for general use in competative play. Let's hear some thoughts on it.

 

[Scabe]

Alright I've got a few new ideas. I'll just post up what I got.

When you soft throw Link's bomb you can run up and do a dash attack which is a true combo. Deals about 20 percent. I think it works at any percent.

We can talk about what to do when Link's bomb hit's a shield.

There's like boomerang return setups. Like when the boomerang returns if you Dtilt or sometimes Uptilt and other moves, it sets up for a jablock.

A new thing I found and it's pretty basic but I've never done it before/seen anyone do it. A good way to clear off opponent's when their up in your face and your shielding. You can short hop and throw the bomb down. It also combos into things.

Anyways I'll get working on videos.

I'm also wondering, what unanswered questions is there left to discuss on Bair and the Hylian shield?

Also I came up with some critieria for testing it's pretty unpolished atm:

• Test it on everyone
• Test it in battle

That's all I can think of atm

 

[Rizen]

So I presumed you were talking about cancelling it on the ground and hitting them infront of you with Bair with the hitbox in your body. As I said, I didn't think it was worth saying as it gives up your spacing. But sure, if you're going to land on them anyway, instead of using Nair as a body attack, you could use Bair.

To clarify, I didn't mean sacrifice spacing. I was thinking OoS SH>fast fall Bair>combo to punish air attacks on the shield. Or SH>down bomb throw>Bair>Utilt combo. Situations already using stun or violations of Link's spacing.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@Rizen: Yeah, two lines after that I said that "if it was going to hit them, then yes you could use Bair and then easilly combo out of it because you don't need to turn around." But I should have been a bit more specific and said, if you can guarantee it'll hit.... So situations where they're in stun or lag, definitely go for it. It's easier to perform the combos after the Bair if you don't have to turn around, but it doesn't seem to affect things much if you buffer the turn around.

@Scabe: Thanks for the ideas!
What does everyone else think of them?
I personally like the idea of talking about shield pressure in general, not just when the Bomb hits their shield, but expand on that idea to include any shield pressure ideas. Maybe we could even think of Link's version of Fox's Deluxe sunshine combo. (I didn't pick the name)
This is basically (from memory) where Fox SH's, Shines at a specific height on the way up, uses Nair which is instantly auto cancelled on the ground and then goes into some jabs or something like that. From memory, it was quite close to breaking shields.
Now imagine Link doing this. He has the same kinda Nair and he also has three projectiles. I propose, that if we put our heads together lightly to avoid pain, we could brainstorm an insane shield pressure combo and possibly in our wildest dreams invent a shield breaker combo.

I'm actually quite syched now!
This is exactly what this thread is meant for. Let's brainstorm.

 

[Ryos4]

@ fox. Yeah that. I'm currently writing up a Combo/Attack string thread and im planning on using your thread as reference for AT's that may be in the combos. So i wouldn't have to discuss them myself and it wouldn/t waste space seeing as your doing just what i need anyway.

Alright I've got a few new ideas. I'll just post up what I got.

When you soft throw Link's bomb you can run up and do a dash attack which is a true combo. Deals about 20 percent. I think it works at any percent.

Bomb to dash attack seems fairly solid. Grabs wont be an issue as the bomb would prevent that if they shielded. Worst thing that could come out of it is either someone with a fast and mobile Fsmash like Wolf or maybe even Kirby before the bomb can bounce back and hit them. Course they may not even care if the bomb hits them after the initial shield and go for a quick high knock back attack.

However, if you do manage to land the combo at a low %. It can easily lead into a Utilt>Nair/Bair>GB combo. Also if they choose not to jump after the GB knock back, you can attempt a pivot land sliding ftilt for an additional hit.

Seems pretty sweet idea Scabe.

A new thing I found and it's pretty basic but I've never done it before/seen anyone do it. A good way to clear off opponent's when their up in your face and your shielding. You can short hop and throw the bomb down. It also combos into things.

People dont do that? I thought it was pretty common to d throw a bomb when in that position. I usually attempt Dthrow bombs when people are close to me with a bomb in hand. Or are you talking about something else?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok so it's not very inspired, but I've thought of a possible way to start the shield pressure combo and a few ways to finish it. Just keep in mind that it still needs some work.
So you SH towards them, throw a Bomb down so it blows up on the ground and the blast hits their shield, Nair, (fast fall?), and then this is the part where I'm lost. If you land and then use both hits of F-smash it'll break a full shield no worries, but who the hell is gonna shield all of that. Still, if your opponent wants to sit in their shield while you try to F-smash, then you have a broken shield. What your more likely to pull off is to land and then use your jabs. Unfortunatelly, the three jabs don't break the full shield. But what if you used 2 Jabs and then cancelled it into a D-smash? That bit is untested as I only just thought of it, but I figured I'd get some ideas out there.

The start, I like. The SH, throw bomb down to Nair is good and ends almost laglessly. If you throw the Bomb down too close to them, then the Bomb will bounce of their shield and you'll catch it with Nair. Possibe ideas? Maybe once you catch it, you can just rinse and repeat.

Another untested idea involves using two bombs and like throwing one up, pulling out another and Z-dropping it so they fall at about the same time, and then using a Dair or Nair to something. With the extra shield pressure of two bombs, things might happen.

Any thoughts on this or any other ideas?


And I just noticed, I still have no feedback about the SH, fast fall asap and Bair at the same time thing that I posted a little while back.

 

[quirkynature]

But what if you used 2 Jabs and then cancelled it into a D-smash?

And I just noticed, I still have no feedback about the SH, fast fall asap and Bair at the same time thing that I posted a little while back.

Hold it. Shield pressure tactics are good (since Link doesn't have Ike or Ganon's brutal power) but if the opponent is going to sit behind his shield all day, why not after jab cancelled grab him? At low percents, D-throw to F-Smash/U-throw to B-air to Boomerang (arrow the opponent on wake-up) works fine. If I'm not wrong, both give roughly 25% damage. The D-throw combo won't work well once you reach low/med percents, and the U-throw combo works until med/high.

As for the SHFFBair, the only time I've pulled it off is when I got lucky. Combos well, though. I have it down in training mode (1/4 speed) though.

Edit: SH, D-bomb to N-air sounds doable. IDK about catching the bomb if it bounces off the shield. I usually fail the ZAC with N-air.

 

[Scabe]

I just got a good idea from reading Foxy's post.

If we throw the bomb on their shield either from above or the side and we catch out bomb back we should instantly try bomb smashing.

So for brutal shield damage:

Throw bomb, catch with Fair, both hit's hit the shield. Bombsmash with Fsmash both hits. Then throw the bomb.

 

[quirkynature]

Throw bomb, catch with Fair, both hit's hit the shield. Bombsmash with Fsmash both hits. Then throw the bomb.

Pulling that off would be pure ownage.

Scabe, good one.

 

[Ryos4]

That shouldnt be too dangerous as long as they dont have long range grabs or tether grab. If they have the range I'm sure they can grab before and during the Fsmash attempt.