SD Remix - 3.3 Full with Slippi Rollback Released!

[Sixth-Sense]

The easiest way imo is using DIOS MIOS in some capacity, but the downside to that is you really need to uninstall DIOS MIOS afterwards if you want to use any retail discs. Takes like literally a minute to install/uninstall it, but still.

Edit: You know, you guys get very little feedback in this thread (part of it being that few people wanna go through the trouble of getting the game working) but part of it is definitely that you guys aren't very receptive towards criticism or discussion. I've been thinking about this project a bit more lately and I honestly think your design philosophies displayed seem pretty flawed overall, and I'm not the only one who thinks this. Other players who post about it in other areas seem to voice the same concerns.

Bumping simply because i've been concerned about this too, i hope you guys aren't just buffing everyone 'till they're spacie level, because that's what it seems, pichu is probably the most OP character, there's basically no need for pikachu anymore, as if he was some kind of bad product but people would only use him because it's a brand name.

 

[Gea]

No, I'm still able to use retail discs.

Also, do you guys already know that Peach freezes if Melee v1.2 is used as a base iso?

Not perfectly. DIOS MIOS can cause random freezes with retail discs. This is a known, well documented issue.

Bumping simply because i've been concerned about this too, i hope you guys aren't just buffing everyone 'till they're spacie level, because that's what it seems, pichu is probably the most OP character, there's basically no need for pikachu anymore, as if he was some kind of bad product but people would only use him because it's a brand name.

I hate to bring up KK like some sort of meatriding fanboy, but I think KK hits the nail on the head in this post in how I largely feel.

I dislike SD Remix because it feels like it's being made similar to PM in that they're trying to make moves link specifically to others.

But Melee's entire combo system is largely organic. That's one of its defining features. Almost everything in the game has emerged as a result of nature.

Building it with BNBs in mind seems to go against what's made this game so cool and unique to play for years. Morever, I feel that approach is dangerous in general.

Also, every character is Falcon. Or Falcon fused with another character.

No matter how anyone puts it, it's obvious something is being lost in transition at the moment. Anyone from the team care to, you know, open up some discussion about that?

 

[Ripple]

I'm not sure how we are supposed to re-build moves that don't work into attacks that do, with absolutely not thought of what they can/should be able to link into

KK's post makes no sense to me honestly.

also, we've RARELY messed with attack angles. so I'm not sure what KK's real problem is.

 

[VietGeek]

Note: Probably only Gea will read this. Even then I am doubtful.

Certainly I cannot deny that this game has moves intentionally made to combo, and others that were buffed to replicate the more organic play seen by top tier characters. Obvious example of a "set BNB" move is SDR Ness's dash attack.

Sure if you ASDI down the last hit you force a tech, but otherwise, it's very probable you will be hit in the face with a B-air.

On the other hand, moves like Mewtwo's F-air and Zelda's Side-B were given duration and angle changes (respectively) for other utilities, but developed into combos due to how these changes operated "in nature."

I guess I would ask how much of Melee is actually "natural" and "organic" and how much is, whether it is the intention of the developers or not, essentially calculated to function as a set combo. Is intent important enough to differentiate the developer who goes out of his way to make character moves different down to knockback stats differing by intervals of 1 (Sakurai) to the "tournament" player who sits down and calculates by mathematics or sheer tomfoolery "how X can combo into Y/Z accounting for this DI, etc." What makes Falco's shine different from Ness's dash attack so to speak?

--------------
Now design philosophy. Well Gea, I admit it was flawed. It's pretty obvious that if your set baseline for balance is near the top, you will delve into the characteristics that make top characters good and surely without doubt replicate them to some extent. This is a two-way dilemma.

On one hand you are making every character "the same" because you are emphasizing the same strengths, even if they are distributed differently per character. This is boring. Captain Falcon is (IMO) boring, but he is definitely a character of extremes who has demonstrated stable viability in an applied, non-theoretical capacity.

He runs hot and cold, low-tier characters, by the constraint that is their design (lack of range and/or mobility, and/or recovery, and/or KO potential, etc.), also run hot and cold.

Whether we intended to or not, there is no denying that we gravitated toward "okay this character has good traits A, B, and C. We're gonna make A, B, and C better, sprinkle in some run speed and if this character can beat Fox I think we did an okay job. Next." Derp.

It is a challenge to make every character both unique and competitive without...breaking something. It is even more so considering the limitations of the system and the directed audience.

Some characters were made to be bad. Otherwise they have overwhelming "go-to" moves that reek of poor design. This is not exclusive to "random Smash Bros. mod" but is rampant in commercial, widely-acclaimed games as well. This is basically a john that inevitably "something has to be broken to work...because well...people always did it this way. So...why not right?"

-----------------

The BIGGEST bad design philosophy cause is definitely the fact that we intend(ed) for everyone to be able to beat the big bad woodland creatures from outer space.

I think everyone knows why this is a bad idea. Spacies have tons of options. They are well-made in one of the worst possible ways. So what happens when everyone can beat Fox and Falco? Other characters get left behind.

What happens to them? They get buffed.

What happens then? Power creep.

This is the dangerous path.

Yet at the same time, many players will assert that if Character F (random Latin character) cannot beat Fox/Falco/whoever, then what is the point of the mod? Is this really a "balance patch" then?

Opinions. Opinions everywhere.

I admit this game has obvious problems. Like "hey we know about this since pre-release and we think it's sorta dumb. But hey Shine is a dumb move so if people can accept that then why not our jank right?"

Well apparently not. So what should be done considering there's already a product out and it's equally foolish to not stand by it.

As for not being receptive to feedback, I'll admit there's an obvious PR issue. Since I am not the sole face of SD Remix, I have to greatly consider the acts of others too. Not to say I am perfect in the least. Far from it.

obv

 

[Gea]

I think looking up matchups isn't the way to balance the game. It's easy to fall into the mentality that in a perfect game, all matchups would be feasible and 50/50 would be what most feel like and the way to achieve that is simply giving all characters the same tools. I kinda want to point towards Balanced Brawl, as they probably did make a pretty balanced version of brawl, but lost something in the process as well.

It's easy to sit here not as part of the modding process and go "GW sucks he feels cobbled together and way too fast and you should fix him to be good but not be different" but I know in reality it is much harder.

Obviously this is a demo, so where are you guys going from here? Did you all expect this to be the baseline and then tweaks happen as demos go? I'm certainly not trying to be cruel to start drama, I like the project it's just... well take Link's arrows. Sure they are better but are you really telling me with a straight face that they belong in the game under the scope of what this project is promising me, the player?

And to Ripple specifically, I think you need to not take the project's criticisms so personally. You come off as very defensive like you think what you've created is perfect to you. This is probably far from your intention, so I'm letting you know by being very blunt with you.

As for the question of organics, I agree that is a very tricky thing that definitely has no set line to walk. I guess it really does come down to making changes that don't shatter the players' expectations of what the character is at their very core, or moves that feel unnatural based upon their visuals. Take Kirby's dash attack or Din's fire. Both moves feel very clunky when you hit because they defy player expectation even based on their visuals and animations compared to the rest of the game. I'll also mention how I feel about Doc again. His improvements were wholly unnecessary for how he functions as a character. It's okay for him to have flaws or a mostly useless dtilt, those changes shouldn't be the focal points of his revamping. This isn't to say all character designs are horrible. You have definitely had some great ideas for some characters. I'm not the only person who thinks Samus was handled particularly well.

 

[VietGeek]

"Where do we go from here" is a great question. Often times questions are great because they don't have definite answers. That applies to this question too.

Honestly as to not alienate the small, very silent minority who play this game, I feel like we do have to take the demo as a baseline. Of course the extent is variable.

I can't tell you Link's arrows are "like normal Melee's but better!" but I also can't tell some mid-level player with an absurd love for Bowser that "well you see Bowser wasn't really Bowser and shield breaks are dumb so for the sake of a better game we sorta completely deviated from the previous demo in regards to him. Sorry. Luckily Fox is still unchanged so we're sorta keeping our side of the bargain right?"

And yes, balancing by match-ups is not the answer. But what is? Honestly, I don't have an answer to this. I would say many game developers don't have an answer to this, because we all know it will devolve into everyone having the same tools.

Yet in games where characters often have radically different tools (take Blazblue specifically), obviously there are going to be unwinnable match-ups, and therefore become "obsolete" characters. I think Donkey Kong exemplifies this well in the current Melee meta. So what do?

I think you have touched on how you feel like the game should be balanced, but of one cannot be too specific when speaking about a broad concept such as game balance. Share as you please.

 

[Gea]

Fat characters will always have a rough time in Melee simply because they really help extend combos based on their size. They are prone to being chaingrabbed, or just having silly combos done to them. Ganon in vanilla Melee is a perfectly acceptable character despite hitting that glass ceiling. Do I think he will ever be viable to win a national? No. But that's part of coming to terms with the fact that one of his flaws as a character is his weakness means as people make less and less mistakes, he will get punished harder if simply because it takes less precision to execute vs him and this also enlarges what holes are in his game to begin with, since exploiting them reap larger rewards.

Yet despite all of this Ganon has his place giving plenty of characters that are good a run for their money. He certainly can take on Peach, Marth, ICs and even Jiggs despite having a mega flawed recovery and mobility issues. DK simply had too many issues against nearly every top character (even with some neat stuff on Jiggs, that is not a matchup he can sleep on) to be anything besides a novelty. He is cargo uair donkey punch and little else. If he can have a decent MU against even a handful of the top characters he will have a place despite maybe forever struggling against spacies and falcon.

Characters like Pika and Doc are so rare despite being decent characters because they lose to absolutely everyone above them even if the MU boards try to soften this fact. Doc does not edge out Sheik, Marth, Peach, Falcon, spacies, ICs. Can he beat them? Sure, but every common battle is uphill. So if suddenly he was a good enough character to say, have reliable MUs against three of those characters, don't you think he would be relevant, even if he lost to the other few?

I'm pretty confident that letting characters develop their own games post-buff instead of trying to account for said characters will result in at least a few that maybe always lose against Peach but can handle space animals because they simply have amazing punishes against them. I am especially confident about this statement because even if all your buffs made the entire cast Ganon level, that is suddenly WAY more MUs to have to understand and know and be able to beat when even with the current 6-7 common characters can cause issues of players not knowing the MU well enough.

I know this is sort of avoiding the answer, but I guess what I'm saying is that despite normal melee's balance, more than the space animals are played in bracket despite some of those characters (say, Peach) having wildly different tools than say, Falco. I would need to really sit down and think about DK before giving an answer about him in particular.

 

[phish-it]

VietGeek you mentioned trying to uphold a characters style but I feel like that is lost with certain changes. Some qualms I have about the changes in SD Remix are how almost every character (that received buffs), had their run speed and air mobility increased. All characters have good KO potential and there are no 'weak' (power wise) characters which respectively would be part of a character's style.

For example Bowser feels kind of forced to me. Shield damage is fine, it fits his character, though the speed boosts make him stray away from his style and feels awkwardly powerful in some areas (fair, uair).

I think the best way to keep a character feeling like themselves is to not buff their weaknesses, but focus on a characters strengths to overcome them. In other words, Bowser as a character is a big, slow powerful tank, what are ways to enforce this and make him better without making him faster?

 

[Ripple]

keeping weaknesses the same and buffing their strengths does not seem like a good way to go about balancing the low tiers imo. although I can see why you'd want to.

you'll probably end up polarizing characters even more so. like for example G&W. pretty much his ONLY strength is jab>grab>up/d-throw> nair. if we buff that only it isn't going to get him anywhere.

 

[Gea]

It is certainly feasible to make weaknesses manageable or be selective in what you feel like a characters weakness is. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess Phish-It was referring more to like GW's ****ty techs and weight more than something like his bair being bad.

I'm sure what most people associate with a character's identity differs and thus is part of the issue when changing them with the promise of personality retention. I think a great example is Zelda. It is easy to peg her for an offensive-oriented character due to fair/bair/decent smashes but was always hampered by her mobility. On the other hand it is just as easy (and arguably more accurate, especially if you take Brawl into account for character personality/design as being worth anything at all) to say Zelda is a failed defensive character. Her low run speed and relatively high traction is not unlike Peach in many ways, and she is often more about punishing with her smashes and lightning kicks than trying to open someone up straight up.

 

[Tee ay eye]

nerf pikachu

 

[phish-it]

keeping weaknesses the same and buffing their strengths does not seem like a good way to go about balancing the low tiers imo. although I can see why you'd want to.

you'll probably end up polarizing characters even more so. like for example G&W. pretty much his ONLY strength is jab>grab>up/d-throw> nair. if we buff that only it isn't going to get him anywhere.

I don't mean it that literally.


I mean buffing the run speed for so many characters, almost seems like it's done just for the sake of buffing. Of course, it makes the characters better, but it feels kind of artificial in a way.

Bowser, DK, G&W, Kirby, Mario, Mewtwo, Ness, Samus, Zelda, Roy, Pichu, all had their run speed increased. In the current tier list, every character E tier and lower fell into this category.

Making every character polarizing is not what I'm suggesting either, what I'm saying is their should be slow characters, their should be weak characters, etc.

 

[Ripple]

this is not meant to sound mean or anything but I would honestly like to hear how you would balance the low tiers (in a general sense) without touching mobility if you feel they are supposed to be slow. unless you just have a problem with the mobility and everything else we've done is fine.

and just a side note, we basically transferred brawl stats to melee. if someone's mobility was increased, it's because it was increased in brawl (save zelda/link so far. m2/pichu don't count because they don't exist)


this may just be me but I'm pretty sure everyone loves fast gameplay, so why not give them it?

 

[bubbaking]

Perhaps balance can never be achieved as long as you're a slow or weak character that has to deal with a fast, strong character with a frame 1 move.

Making the most general of pessimistic statements since 2001.

Serious talk about G&W, he always struck me as a more mobile character, what with his fast initial dash, his decent WD/WL, his slidiness for edge-cancelling. The only things that didn't fit in that picture were his terribad rolls and techs, and maybe his low-ranged grab too. Perhaps, rather than speeding up G&W in general, you should just make his rolls and techs way faster, perhaps his grab too. I mean, there are other chars who are just as mobile (Sheik, Fox, Pika, etc) but they get to have fast techs and rolls. They're not really any weaker than Game either. As long as you have chars that get to benefit all of the strengths that Watch has while also having additional strengths that he's actually very weak in, you'll never be able to balance him out and bring him closer to the rest of the cast, even if you give him all the "rights" of a character, like universal L-cancelling and a bigger shield.

When my friend, AvidScroll, picked up G&W, he thought he could work around the shield by being as mobile as possible, and he thought he could kind of work around the L-cancelling problem by edgecancelling as much as he could. We had our really technical Fox main friend pick him up for a while to see if we could feasibly play him like that, but in the end it just didn't work out. There are times when G&W simply has to shield. He's light, so he can't depend on CC > dtilt for long. When confronted by the likes of the spacees and Sheik, he's forced to shield, but the spacees crap all over your shield, and G&W lacks a good OoS option. Whenever I'm Samus, I can upB OoS if they don't respect my shield. When I'm Sheik, I can roll when things get tight, 'cause Sheik's roll is incredible and the spacees' lateral movement is really bad when they're pressuring a shield. What am I supposed to do with G&W? UpB and pray that there's a plat above me? Roll and pray that my opponent is ******** so he can't react? I personally think you should start somewhere like that when looking at how to improve G&W. He was already fast enough. Making his run faster won't solve his core problems.

 

[Ripple]

G&W rolls and spot dodge have already been buffed by a large margin.

spot dodge is better by 10 frames and both rolls are better by 7

also has a much better up-b OOS now

 

[phish-it]

this is not meant to sound mean or anything but I would honestly like to hear how you would balance the low tiers (in a general sense) without touching mobility if you feel they are supposed to be slow. unless you just have a problem with the mobility and everything else we've done is fine.

and just a side note, we basically transferred brawl stats to melee. if someone's mobility was increased, it's because it was increased in brawl (save zelda/link so far. m2/pichu don't count because they don't exist)


this may just be me but I'm pretty sure everyone loves fast gameplay, so why not give them it?

Just because something is better in Brawl doesn't mean it should be transferred back to melee. I don't have a problem with buffing certain characters mobility, just not all characters mobility.

I think G&W is fine, he doesn't feel out of place with his buffs and that is good.

Are you going to ROM?

 

[Ripple]

unfortunately, no. I was looking forward to it so much too . stupid family vacation.

also, just to let people know, because phish-it may know this already , but an increase in run speed of .01 only make you run across FD 1 frame faster. so .1 is 10 frames.

so most characters have a speed boost of like 2-6 frames crossing FD. that's it. it feels like more but it isn't.

actual air mobility is another thing. we can't really measure it but anything above a .1 increase is noticeable.

 

[Stevo]

I'm going to try to read this thread in its entirety eventually, however, I have an observation that I find odd.

It seems like every character lower than Ganondorf has got a speed increase in run speed, air speed, wavedash distance, manoeuvrability, or all of the above.

I don't mean to judge without having tried it out yet, but that sticks out for me. I feel like that should not be necessary.

I actually started a thread a long time ago about creating a more balanced melee when hacking got to this point. It was met with criticism about melee being perfect as is, don't change it, just play mele! etc. but people are more open to the idea nowadays (a little). Perhaps I will dig it up.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I don't mean to judge without having tried it out yet, but that sticks out for me. I feel like that should not be necessary.

Try it =)

10

 

[Beautiful Death]

Mewtwo.

I play Ness.

What a ludicrously stupid character.

His aerials are a goddamned WALL. Just jump around with the guy and Nair repeatedly and watch it just tear through just about anything. And it cannot be shield grabbed?

All that aside. It's fine. He's a wall. All of that takes a backseat to the dumbest thing in existence.

MEWTWO'S TELEPORT.

If I read correctly his teleport was BUFFED? Why?

That move was already ridiculous in Melee. It was just on a not so hot character.

So Mewtwo is super floaty so I can't really combo him. Like I hardly get anything off of anything. And Mewtwo can just teleport out of things as soon as he has a tiny gap due to the frame 4 invinc. on that stupid teleport.

God. Whenever I win against Mewtwo I feel like I'm just getting lucky.

I can't edgeguard him AT ALL unless the player is being a lungfish. Not just Ness. Nobody can edgeguard Mewtwo. Get near him in the air and he can just react and teleport then be back in the game in the blink of a goddamned eye because that that.........MOVE is LIGHTNING FAST HAS 4 FRAME INVINCIBILITY AND HAS LIKE ZERO LANDING LAG.

I can't juggle him. He either mashes Nair and like beats everything or just teleports away in less then an instant.

God that teleport in so stupid. I think it's kinda silly that his Nair is so ridiculous but the teleport just takes the damn cake.

If nothing is done about that stupid cat thing then believe me. Mewtwo will be the most hated character in the game along with Jigglypuff. He IS the new Jigglypuff. Only worse because he has a projectile and ridiculous attacks and is fast and has the world's absolute dumbest move ever- Teleport.

Oh, god help you if you're playing a slower character on Dreamland against Mewtwo and he gets the life lead and decides to be an a-hole and run away. GG.

Other then that Pichu is really hilarious lol. Obviously I'm talking about his Side B. Too fun.

 

[bubbaking]

Am I the only one having trouble reading Beautiful Death's post because it's too wide?

 

[Ripple]

go into your profile settings and you can limit how much of a sig is displayed

 

[bubbaking]

Ah, alright, thanks! I had to turn sig displays off entirely to see this one...

 

[BJN39]

I reread Zelda's change list again and realized, it says on Fsmash and Usmash; "Loop hitboxes connect slightly better." Slightly? Does this mean they can still be escaped? Also, I always felt Fsmash and Utilt shoulda woulda coulda but don't kill at maybe 10% earlier. (I think maybe they should)

And also again, Ftilt/Utilt have less startup, does this mean you can cut frames out? Or are you somehow speeding the move up entirely? I'm confused on what the limits are to move changing.

 

[Ripple]

we are using 1.0 version so that means you can't SDI f-smash but there was always a chance you could fall out simply because of the angle the move hits you at, this has been adjusted.

as for up-tilt an f-tilt we can speed up or slow down moves now but only a limited total amount of moves in the game. we are currently maxed out already :/

 

[Sixth-Sense]

uh why does mew2's confusion/sleep thing hit in the air?

 

[Ripple]

if you're talking about disable, it's because it always has.

I swear people imagine twice as many changes as there actually are/ don't know vanilla AT ALL

 

[VietGeek]

They could always do that. You're just sent into tumble state from Side-B or Down-B hit (Down-B on non-hitstun/get-up) but you can act immediately out of it (read: they still suck in the air)

 

[Sixth-Sense]

They could always do that. You're just sent into tumble state from Side-B or Down-B hit (Down-B on non-hitstun/get-up) but you can act immediately out of it (read: they still suck in the air)

thanks, never knew that about melee, i guess it just seemed to me like it hit hard or something but then i remembered that i hit falcon with it more than 100% sorry for the un-helpful post

 

[bubbaking]

I think Samus was the best, most reasonable, and most balanced character that SDR changed. Her changes were conservative and mostly made sense. The faster dash speed wasn't really needed, and the super usmash is a bit OP, but other than that, she makes sense. I'm REALLY lovin' the new shin intangibility on her utilt. I had one question about her new grab: Can the actual tether grab people who are offstage? If so, how late into the grab?

 

[Ripple]

samus is getting nerfs so, I guess we're making some good decisions regarding her.

her run speed is being reverted, up-smash is being toned down because of how fast it is, f-smash is being reverted...

and yes bubbaking, her grab now functions the exact same as everyone else for the entire duration.

 

[bubbaking]

Not against those specific nerfs, but I pray that you aren't just doing that while letting Ness keep his ridiculous frame 1 PSI Shine with practically no cooldown. I was playing SDR at Vanguard's the other day and that stuff was ridiculous. It breaks combos, it starts combos, and you can stall with it. Yeah, if you have a lead, and you feel like being cheap, the next time you're launched upwards, just PSI shine over and over. It'll take almost a minute for you to reach the ground.

#Complaints

 

[cardflecher]

I can't get SD Remix working at all! It always freezes at a black screen after the Dios Mios logo goes away.
I waited for 5 seconds but it still won't work! What am I doing wrong?

 

[Kix]

Thanks for answering my questions a few pages back, Ripple. It's understandable that you want to differentiate the two Links and its to Link's benefit.

 

[bubbaking]

Could you link me to this answer? I'd like to see the differentiation intended between the two.....

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Not against those specific nerfs, but I pray that you aren't just doing that while letting Ness keep his ridiculous frame 1 PSI Shine with practically no cooldown. I was playing SDR at Vanguard's the other day and that stuff was ridiculous. It breaks combos, it starts combos, and you can stall with it. Yeah, if you have a lead, and you feel like being cheap, the next time you're launched upwards, just PSI shine over and over. It'll take almost a minute for you to reach the ground.

We have already plans about nerfing his down B. Give us more input guys and thank you! =)

 

[bubbaking]

Pichu.............. (-_-) I'm assuming that everyone here who's played the game has witnessed the terror of Pichu, so I don't think I need to elaborate. It would make a bit more sense if Pichu wasn't so much better than Pika in every way, lolz! Also, Koopa Klaw and Inhale have some really wonky rages. Shouldn't Inhale be buffed by increasing its range in the air while leaving its range on the ground the same? As for Klaw, well, Idk what you could do for that, but as it is in SDR currently, I was grabbing people below Bowser and even outside of the slash marks. I think I was also grabbing people during the slashes, which was weird.

After Samus, I thought Roy was the most successfully designed char. He feels really good, IMO.

 

[Ripple]

I switched the GFX for the slash to 3 frames later/earlier (IDR which) so it would look to match the sound of the claw.

if you grab someone during the last 2 fames of the slash, the slash GFX still animates oddly.

also, hitboxes match the GFX now, it looks like it should hit so I made it hit

 

[Stevo]

Just throwing some things out there

Bowser's problems (in melee) are generally
-slow to get in the air and slow to recover after landing.
-Many moves are difficult to land and don't reward you enough for doing so.
-Combo fodder (Big, Heavy, Fall speed is not too low or too high)
-Poor recovery

You guys addressed the first point and the second point, but I don't think you addressed the 3rd one.

How fast is Bowser's neutral air? I think a faster and better hitbox Neutral air would help him escape combo's a little better. Sometimes you can combo Bowser for days, not because the hits always link 100%, but because he has no way to escape something other than his double jump or up-b. Even from the ground, if you have to take a hit, his only option out of crouch cancel is basically up-b.

I would combine this change with an increase in weight and a faster d-smash (it would become sort of like Peach's, except you can DI out of it).

Have you guys tried Bowser at a weight of like 130 just for fun? Would that be too ridiculous?

Anyway, just some ideas.

 

[bubbaking]

But big characters are supposed to be easily comboed. That's the bane of being Bowser or DK. Do you want these characters to be broken? Also, what exactly do you mean by "slow to recover after landing"?