Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[gravy]

I would certainly be willing. If we could have Magus-like answers to everything, that would be awesome. One question i would pose is the skill level that should be targeted. Should we attempt to spread the information over a wide range, or focus on making the already skilled players better? On a side note, any shield info would be great to help quicken the fall of Tope.
Edit: if the frame data confirms its possibility, we need to still make sure it's reasonably possible. We are not TAS

 

[Scar]

@leffen, i didn't even know that thread existed

this is the first time i've been active in like 2 years

@gravy, i think it's most important to figure out what we want to learn first, so let's start thinking about what needs to be figured out, and if the best way to organize it is by skill (beginner, intermediate, advanced, expert) then we'll do it that way. but to plan that right now without having some examples of why it's useful seems like jumping the gun.

 

[gravy]

Alright. An interesting point I think we should keep in mind is that while practicing new things, we should practice being flexible with each new option we discover in the hopes that we will develop less patterns, and be able to adapt more quickly. I should be able to type something up tomorrow with some general guidelines. Also, when we do end up making decisions (such as nair to jab being possible or not) we should consider making a general consensus thread or something to that effect, so that the knowledge is easily found instead of being buried in posts.

 

[Scar]

yeah I think I might actually start using Google Docs to organize a lot of this stuff

also feel free to just write out your first thoughts, i wouldn't spend a ton of time on something that we're probably going to modify anyway

 

[gravy]

Alright. I'll send you a tentative list tomorrow of things to consider incorporating.

 

[adechrist]

Nair
Lcanceled:7 frames
Damage:6 then 7
Shield Stun of 2nd hit:4 frames
4-7=-3
Nair is at a 3 frame disadvantage, but falcon's jab hits in 3 frames so 3+3=6. Grabs out of shield take 7 frames. So 7-6=1 frame advantage. You must hit with the second hit of Nair on the exact frame before you hit the ground for this to work. This calculation also assumes Nair is at full power (isn't stale). Although shield stun won't go down unless Nair has been used more than 3 times in a row(to put it simply). SO TO SUM IT UP, Nair>Jab can't be shield grabbed if you're frame perfect.
Also, if your jab comes out on the exact frame the opponent's grab comes out. The grab will win since it has priority.

Uair
Lcanceled: 7
Damage:13
Shield Stun:7
7-7=0
Uair>Jab works with 4 frame advantage over grab. 0+3(jab)=3, 7(grab)-3(jab)=4

Bair
Lcanceled: 9
Damage:14
Shield Stun:8
8-9=-1 frame disadvantage

Dair
Lcanceled: 12
Damage:16
Sheild Stun:9
9-12=-3 frame disadvantage

Fair
Lcanceled: 9
Damage:18
Sheild Stun:10
10-9=1 frame advantage

Things to keep in mind: Most rolls take 4 frames; Most sidesteps take 2 frames; Most grabs take 7 frames (no grab takes less frames). Fox Shine OoS:4 frames; Falco Shine OoS:6; Samus up B OoS:5; Pikachu Uair OoS:6

EDIT: Jiggs is invincible frame 2 of forward roll, Yoshi's invincable frame 1 of both rolls.
Captain Falcon & Zelda's sidesteps are invincible frame 3. Bowser's is invincible frame 4.
Thanks Strong Bad for the correction

 

[Scar]

^awesome

great to know

 

[Nakamaru]

What exactly do you aim to accomplish with this video? Are we talking tactics, strategies, or tricks (tech skill gimmicks)? Or all of it?

I think the video should have the format that the advanced how to play videos have. A name for the technique, definition, and then followed by a rehearsed video demonstrating it. But since falcon has a lot of situational things we should add on a "real world" example or two at the end of each clip.

Just a thought.

 

[BigD!!!]

so they cant grab us if we're frame perfect, but its not that easy for them either even if we're not

basically, we should be stepping it up

 

[Deleted member]

guess thats why i think its 50-50 lol i wasnt quite sure each time I do it

 

[tarheeljks]

Detailed Throws, Techs, and Getups Frame Data

good companion thread for the frame data on aerials (and grabs)


edit: should help us make better decisions wrt tech chasing

 

[Gahtzu]

Fzero has a good example of a "practice" video

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think nair->dash dance is really safe and has a lot of room for error

 

[Wenbobular]

Just space Nair to hit with the tips and you'll never have to worry about it ~_~
Abuse long legs to the fullest

 

[gravy]

Just space Nair to hit with the tips and you'll never have to worry about it ~_~
Abuse long legs to the fullest

It's best to know our limitations if we mess up our spacing, or decide to set a trap.

Edit: Gahtzu, can you link the video?

 

[Scar]

uair has the best frame advantage, bout to start dem approaching w/ uair... how many frames is standing grab? what's the frame diagnosis of uair grab? looks to me like it should be even, but idk who gets the grab if both chars do it at the same time

 

[gravy]

Isn't grab priority based on ports?

 

[Citizen Snips]

Isn't grab priority based on ports?

Yup. Port priority determines grabs on the same frame.

 

[Scar]

alright so i'm player 1 and spamming frame perfect uair grab

you guys will see

 

[crush]

Citizen snips has been doing that forever. He 3 stocked teczero in their MM by abusing that ****

 

[gravy]

I agree with you Scar. It seems one of the most common move you see on shield is dair, and that lag is terrible. Uair ftw. Do we need to hit the bottom of the shield?

 

[Citizen Snips]

Citizen snips has been doing that forever. He 3 stocked teczero in their MM by abusing that ****

Yeah. He got so scared he went Mewtwo.


What a cheap piece of **** move, CPing me with Mewtwo

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with you Scar. It seems one of the most common move you see on shield is dair, and that lag is terrible. Uair ftw. Do we need to hit the bottom of the shield?

completely wrong, dair on shield is good just don't be close enough to get punished

hit their shield and float away slightly

 

[gravy]

Oh alright. Should I avoid fastfalling it to give me time to float away? It happens a lot when I dair oos and I end up disturbingly close to them.

 

[Gahtzu]

Fzero's How to Train Your Falcon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbgR29W_X_o

maybe you can get some ideas from this

 

[Deleted member]

Oh alright. Should I avoid fastfalling it to give me time to float away? It happens a lot when I dair oos and I end up disturbingly close to them.

i d-air spam out of shield a lot too but its mostly a matter of spacing IMO, I usually fastfall the stomp too no matter what

 

[Scar]

i'm making a conscious effort to not make fun of f-zero, but i do think it's pretty funny to watch him run into attacks by lv 7 computers LOL

 

[Wizzrobe]

Fzero's How to Train Your Falcon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbgR29W_X_o

maybe you can get some ideas from this

Wow I should start training on level 7's lol.

 

[gravy]

Thank you for the insight s2j

 

[Windrose]

omg, scar is back and he's gonna unite the falcons!!

Request: PLZZZZ upload the original ikm2 with the original songs including final countdown!!

 

[Sparky]

http://blip.tv/ssbmscar/i-killed-mufasa-ii-1787180
the blip tv link for ikm2 is still up.

 

[Windrose]

WOAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The bible is back.


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edit:

SCAR!!!

I don't know if you've started continuing your project yet for your guide/videos but one thing I believe would help a lot of people and hasn't really been documented well in the falcon boards is SURVIVAL stuff.

By this I mean, stuff like... damage control, combo DI, when thrown off stage, when to sweet spot dj to grab the ledge and when to come back with aerials...

Like, how to DI when you get shine'd or when sheik/marth grabs+throws you.

I think this'd be really useful and help falcon players not get combo video'd and get gimped (as much).


===
Perhaps some collaborative effort would be best? s2j has a lot to offer in the topic of damage control. I'm sure hax would as well? east coast training.


Let's get a show of hands to see who would be interested in this? A lot of mid level falcons know about offensive stuff but this is more of the subtle things that helps you not get ***** (as hard...) so you can deliver **** more often

 

[Divinokage]

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned CCing, it's so good. lol.

 

[gravy]

I very much support Windrose's idea. Combo DI certainly needs as extensive an understanding as possible. I'd like to discuss scenarios when implementing SDI becomes practical, or perhaps when it can be used to escape combos.

 

[Windrose]

yeah cc'ing, SDI, those are other things that are good too that should be covered, I was just listing some examples

 

[gravy]

I would be very happy to see a video like that. I'd also like to see a video that went over practicing ledgeteching, and also practicing what to do after it happens.

 

[Windrose]

to practice ledge teching, play against a lvl 9 game & watch and keep up-b'ing against him when you're off stage below the ledge. he'll always try to hit you with like a f-tilt or something.

That or if you have a friend who plays marth that's willing to just f-smash you over and over again.

Imo, your goal once you tech is to try to up-b as soon as possible again so you can YES your opponent. But if he is low percent, he'll just hit you again upon teching it or if he's realy low, he won't even need to tech it =(.



====

What i suggested doesn't have to be in a video...it can be in the form of a thread like hax's compendum with sections divided up. People can always refer to it and discuss/improve it.

 

[gravy]

Well I practice it by using a motion sensor in training, but there's also the option of airdodging onstage directly after the tech, but still, these are just ideas so we can condense the info into one place.

 

[Scar]

Thanks for the IKM2 link! Awesome

I really like the idea of some defensive pointers, how and when to use SDI, and recovery tips. I could just make a thread for the project and we can fill it out as we go.

 

[Strong Badam]

Nair
Lcanceled:7 frames
Damage:6 then 7
Shield Stun of 2nd hit:4 frames
4-7=-3
word

7 damage hitboxes have 5 frames of shieldstun.

Things to keep in mind: All rolls take 4 frames; All sidesteps take 2 frames; Most grabs take 7 frames (no grab takes less frames). Fox Shine OoS:4 frames; Falco Shine OoS:6; Samus up B OoS:5; Pikachu Uair OoS:6

Jiggs is invincible frame 2 of roll, Yoshi frame 1.
Captain Falcon & Zelda's sidesteps are invincible frame 3. Bowser's is invincible frame 4.