Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Scar]

My point of this is that YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES is not valid argument here, especially one in dictating a local tournament results, when I have an exact opposite experience which totally cancels out yours. Seriously your entire example is similar to me saying "I beat my friend all the time as Ganondorf, he must be a top tier character"

The truth will come from an aggregation of all personal experiences... each and every one is valuable, and none of them individually can be used to make a definitive statment.

Brawl's tournament success seems to vary greatly from region to region. Only time will tell what's actually going to happen but this thread is here for us to discuss what we think and try to take our best guess. I happen to agree with D20.

I also firmly believe that casual gamers who are sore sports will always hate Melee, and truly competitive gamers who don't care about losing will dislike Brawl and if they ever learn what competitive Melee is all about, they'll be immersed in its vastness.

 

[RDK]

Synikal made an awesome post a few pages back. Quote it in the OP, Scar, and maybe it'll lessen the amount of ******** Brawl n00bs that come in here.

Although I seriously doubt it.

 

[Brookman]

Dunno if you noticed, but we're the only brawl noobs in here

 

[Jack Kieser]

Dunno if you noticed, but we're the only brawl noobs in here

Brookman, I like your style.

 

[Eternal Smasher]

I was having a conversation about Brawl and Melee with a couple of other people. In this conversation, we came to the conclusion that Brawl will die when someone loses in the grand finals of a major tournament (FC, OC, *pound*) because of tripping...

For the record, I would pay to see that. For seriously.

 

[BlackPanther]

I believe for now this game will dominate Melee but once people start realizing that it's just another Melee( in terms of what characters are bein used in tourneys and rule sets and whatnot) but without the action and depth that Melee has then people will either go back to Melee and it'll continue to be the better game or people will still play Brawl living on this empty hope that it'll become this great competitive game. Seriously why is it that people get mad when you figure out within a months time that Brawl will not be as good as people think? Reviewers from magazines like Game Pro and EGM come out with their reviews after a week of playing the game, they don't spend a ****ing year or so dissecting the game like we do, go ****ing flame them I know why you guys don't though because they tell you exactly what you want to hear, that it's the best game ever and it's so well balanced out. You guys are pathetic seriously new does not always mean good and it's golden proof with Brawl. It's fun as a platform party game, that's it, it's nothin more than that. If you guys continue to push this you'll only be disappointed that you can't use your favorite character to win a tournament because it's on the bottom of the list and you didn't realize it because you're to busy gloating about how balanced this game is. It's not, Melee's still the more balanced game over and the better competitive game and it should be kept that way, period.

=) Any attempts to flame will just be retaliated with more flaming me flaming you worse, so just read it and leave it at that, it speaks the truth after all lol.

 

[Yoshistar64]

BlackPanther, did you read the first post? This is supposed to be an intelligent discussion on how to make this game more competitive. If you're going to just stay adamant like that, then stay away from this thread.

 

[BlackPanther]

I'm past that, this thread has become anything but intelligent at this point so I may as well join in, plus I think I made some solid points not on the subject maybe but still lol.

 

[LOL_Master]

everyone with high post is intelligent

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Then I'm a genious!!! Yuna=God.

lol

 

[Samochan]

*subscribes*

 

[Brookman]

^^Then I'm a genious!!!

Irony.

Yuna=God.

Emphasis on Irony.

 

[Corigames]

*sig*

Hey... nice sig.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Because of this thread i want to share something m2k told me on AIM. He told me that Melee still hasnt been fully discovered. Most people think m2k is arrangent. But him himself said everyone sucks at melee including him. Now trust me when i say i love brawl. I hosted 15 tournies so far. But Melee players have the higher ground. Melee not close to being over. Brawl is a fun good game. I even call it competivie. But people who think melee is over are foolish. Melee isnt over and its amazing. Scar= >3

 

[Skler]

Who keeps saying smashers won't go back to Melee? Just yesterday I got some casual players to play Melee instead of Brawl because they got tired of me camping them when they wanted me to show them competitive brawl. I'm pretty sure those guys will never enter a Brawl tournament, and a few of them were honestly interested in Melee.

 

[Brookman]

You can't describe the beautiful sunset, but you can make the blind man see.

 

[Corigames]

Poetic, I like it.

The strength of men will burn the fires of competition at no discretion of sport or desire. This flame will burn a hole straight to the heart of man and expose it for its true nature. If you want to know what competition is, look no further than yourself! Within all of us lies a lake of eternal energy amounting to the essence of the fight, struggle, and ferocity of the beating life source that strengthens all those who dare to challenge what stands in there way.

Those who can handle themselves, those who know of their own power, those who burn like fire and fight like men are those who blaze the trail of competition.

There is your answer Scar.

 

[SiegKnight]

Haven't commented on these *** boards in ages but since I lurk here often when bored... Corey; mind if I take the awesome parts of your post there as a sort of quote to hang up everywhere I go that isn't totally ***~? *eg, here.*

I like it, it makes sense and being big or small at various fighting games depending on which one, I really think it suits the idea of competitivity amazingly. I don't think you realize how awesome what you written was. Wtf, are you ill? Haha.

 

[Corigames]

That post up there was thanks to watching Gurren Lagann... 9 episodes straight today. I love watching that show. So... much.

 

[NJzFinest]

All of this changed when I got to Purdue though. I heard about a Melee tournament going on in my dorm's basement, so I thought I would check it out. I get there to find Cunning Kitsune running the thing and Iggy, Kirkq, and NJzfinest playing in it. I got my *** handed to me on a silver platter. I'm telling you, it was bad! NJ actually couldn't stand me for a while because I was so bad at the game.

This is true

 

[Scar]

I just caught up with Chillin's post and then SynikaL's retort and I'd like to say what Card responded with was my counterpoint back on page 2. I'm pretty sure my post is right after his, I think the community has to make peace with this issue before we move on. Which game is better competitively, and what are we going to do about it?

SynikaL says Melee is better competitively, but the community will just "go play Brawl." That's fine, but I think that many players should not go play Brawl for a lot of reasons and instead go play Melee. The players in question are the ones with good, competitive, secure attitudes. Melee isn't dying out where I'm from, and I intend to keep it alive as long as I can.

 

[Brookman]

Scar, I want to give you a hug.

but I'll settle for falcon dittos

 

[thumbswayup]

I think Brookman should change his name to Ironyman.

 

[Brookman]

I think you should change your name to thumbswayupmyass

 

[LOL_Master]

loooooooooooooooolllllllllls, thumbswayupman

 

[thumbswayup]

My post was referring to the numerous times in previous pages you pointed out irony in other people's posts. I don't go on the boards on weekends so I just now was reading everything that was posted in the last few days while I'm at work. It was not directed at your post right above mine. I don't know if that was the reason you took offense to my post or not, or even if you're being sarcastic. I can never tell with you.

 

[Samochan]

What I don't get is, why cannot the two games co-exists if the community has already been ripped to 2 sides? Last time I recall, melee tournaments run from 2 days to 4 days and with good organizing you can have tournaments for both games. Or just host separate tournaments for both games if time is such an issue. Also there is no reason to just quit playing melee altogether unless someone is a complete casual player, the games are vastly different. I'm still learning brawl, but I can still play melee fine after I've just played brawl for long period of time. Melee sold 6 million copies, do everyone jump to the brawl bandwagon suddenly so that you cannot find any melee players anymore? Do people refuse to play melee due to brawl being a new game and somewhat easier to play, or is it because of some gimmicks? Is it because they feel they might win more on brawl than they did on melee? That's rubbish. Good games do not die, they become gold. And since melee can be played on the same console and same controller, even better.

Just my thoughts.

 

[SynikaL]

I just caught up with Chillin's post and then SynikaL's retort and I'd like to say what Card responded with was my counterpoint back on page 2. I'm pretty sure my post is right after his, I think the community has to make peace with this issue before we move on. Which game is better competitively, and what are we going to do about it?

SynikaL says Melee is better competitively, but the community will just "go play Brawl." That's fine, but I think that many players should not go play Brawl for a lot of reasons and instead go play Melee. The players in question are the ones with good, competitive, secure attitudes. Melee isn't dying out where I'm from, and I intend to keep it alive as long as I can.

If consensus is truly not your ultimatum, then your motives have simply deteriorated into demagoguery. Attempting to proselytize using Smashboards as a rostrum will only serve to prolong the inevitable consensus, and only defame your character in the process.

You, yourself stated "the community has to make peace with this issue before we move on".

If the community is not to make peace with the two given agreements, then what other practical consensus are you expecting? Everyone stop playing Brawl and return to Melee? This is a disillusioned prospect.

"The players in question are the ones with good, competitive, secure attitudes"


As I've stated before, "Ego" is the corrupting agent that needs to be weeded out of both sects to refine and solidify the consensus. Here, is the agent in one of its more finer and more subtle forms.

At this point, you're only hurting yourself. Stop.

*****


Melee players: If it's our time, it's our time. Melee will not die if the game and the players subsist, but its tenure as the face of the competitive community is up. This may not make much sense, considering the game's qualifications as a competitive title in respects to Brawl, but those qualifications are not enough to stem the flux of change coursing through this community, full of new faces willing and eager to replace just about everyone of us with unabated alacrity.

Just because Melee is taking a backseat to Brawl, does not mean Melee players are ultimately subjected to some inferior state of existence. Keep playing Melee. Keep hosting tournaments.

Is Melee dead in your area? Find another hobby. I've chosen to use my extra free time not playing Melee or Brawl to increase my overall level of knowledge. I've begun reading a few books and I am becoming more intelligent by the day.

Reading not your thing? Street Fighter 4 and Soul Calibur 4 are on the horizon. Get involved with those scenes.

So many more practical and healthy options exist outside trying to bind your very existence and self-worth to Melee. Swallow your pride so we can truly move on.


-Kimo

 

[ToastMAN]

wants there more to learn in melee? (Flame me for this please)

And I discovered a new technique for Random players that might push Brawl over the edge and makeit competitive...

When you choose random, you can hit X or Y (GCN CONTROLLER) and you hear the noise that is used when changing colors for other chars. This Changes the Character that we were going to be.

EX: you pick Random, but the game was gonna give you Fire Mario, so then you hit x or y (on the char selection screen) and the game switches fire mario to old man gannon, the number of possibilities are insane. you might even get the same char you had but diff. alt coustume or even the same alt. coustume!! It amazing all the things you can do in brawl, as i recall this Advance technique isnt in melee...
Brawl 1 - melee 0

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

wants there more to learn in melee? (Flame me for this please)

And I discovered a new technique for Random players that might push Brawl over the edge and makeit competitive...

When you choose random, you can hit X or Y (GCN CONTROLLER) and you hear the noise that is used when changing colors for other chars. This Changes the Character that we were going to be.

EX: you pick Random, but the game was gonna give you Fire Mario, so then you hit x or y (on the char selection screen) and the game switches fire mario to old man gannon, the number of possibilities are insane. you might even get the same char you had but diff. alt coustume or even the same alt. coustume!! It amazing all the things you can do in brawl, as i recall this Advance technique isnt in melee...
Brawl 1 - melee 0

I don't even have to flame you for that post.

 

[ToastMAN]

I don't even have to flame you for that post.

Why? because there is nothing new to learn in melee?

 

[Egret]

Melee isn't dying out where I'm from, and I intend to keep it alive as long as I can.

This is great news. I'll be returning to my home in the Philadelphia area soon and it's nice to know that the melee scene is being kept alive there.

 

[thumbswayup]

Shut up Toastman.

 

[ToastMAN]

Lol, why...I jsut discovered a new AT and if my post count were higher it would be taken more seriously

 

[LOL_Master]

wants there more to learn in melee? (Flame me for this please)

And I discovered a new technique for Random players that might push Brawl over the edge and makeit competitive...

When you choose random, you can hit X or Y (GCN CONTROLLER) and you hear the noise that is used when changing colors for other chars. This Changes the Character that we were going to be.

EX: you pick Random, but the game was gonna give you Fire Mario, so then you hit x or y (on the char selection screen) and the game switches fire mario to old man gannon, the number of possibilities are insane. you might even get the same char you had but diff. alt coustume or even the same alt. coustume!! It amazing all the things you can do in brawl, as i recall this Advance technique isnt in melee...
Brawl 1 - melee 0

......OMG STFU SCRUB ****

 

[Scar]

So many more practical and healthy options exist outside trying to bind your very existence and self-worth to Melee. Swallow your pride so we can truly move on.

To some people, Melee is more than just a game. My time spent with Melee was only 50% becoming better than everyone else. The other 50% was becoming a part of a community. My friends play Melee, and the most fun I have gaming comes from hanging out with them and competing with them.

I think you have a very wrong idea about what people's motivations are in playing video games. No one is seriously "trying to bind their existences and/or self-worth" to a game. You might be projecting.

Anyways, you said that I should stop and am ultimately doing nothing of service if I'm not ready to "swallow my pride" and concede to the point that the community will ultimately move on to Brawl. That's fine, but it's a matter of opinion, and my opinion is different. Only time will tell what will happen to Melee.

wants there more to learn in melee? (Flame me for this please)

And I discovered a new technique for Random players that might push Brawl over the edge and makeit competitive...

When you choose random, you can hit X or Y (GCN CONTROLLER) and you hear the noise that is used when changing colors for other chars. This Changes the Character that we were going to be.

EX: you pick Random, but the game was gonna give you Fire Mario, so then you hit x or y (on the char selection screen) and the game switches fire mario to old man gannon, the number of possibilities are insane. you might even get the same char you had but diff. alt coustume or even the same alt. coustume!! It amazing all the things you can do in brawl, as i recall this Advance technique isnt in melee...
Brawl 1 - melee 0

Sigh... well first off, we cannot say there is nothing more to learn in melee. There are things that I'm not sure of that I would like to know for certain, others probably know the answers but it's at the very least not common knowledge.

That example about random characters... it's like, not really coherent. It's not an "advanced technique" that can change the competitiveness of the game in any way whatsoever. Those techniques that people refer to are exploits in the game system, which Wesley defined as tools the game has given us used in an unconventional manner. To increase the competitiveness of the fighting game that is Brawl, it actually should be used in a fight. Not the character selection screen.

Wavedashing, L-cancelling, platform cancelling, wavelanding, ledgehopping, buffering rolls and dodges...

 

[The Executive]

I, for one, would like to see Melee coexist alongside Brawl. Two games for two demographics. I still play both games.

Not to mention if we can keep the Melee scene alive whoever steps up to direct SSB4 if it ever comes into existence will realize "hey, my predecessor did something that ticked off a large portion of his target demographic, I better fix that."

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Lol, why...I jsut discovered a new AT and if my post count were higher it would be taken more seriously

It has nothing to do with your post count. It has to do with what you say, and what you said is, frankly, stupid.

You think random character selection is an advanced technique?

You reek of noob. I didn't have to flame you for your dumb post because it is so absurdly obvious how scrubbish you are. I realize you may be new, and you're trying your best, but you just simply lack the knowledge to contribute to the discussion.

Henceforth I won't be responding to you, as you don't deserve my future time or energy.

"To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty." - Lao Tzu

 

[The Executive]

Ancient Chinese proverbs always have a good ring to them.

Back on topic, X/Y on Random is nothing more than shuffling pieces of paper around in a hat. Assuming the game gives equal weight to each character/outfit combination and you have the full roster, your chances of having a certain character and outfit are still 1 in 216, unless the game is programmed not to pick one twice consecutively in which case it would be 1 in 215. That's .00465%. You are still twice as likely to get Wario (.0556%) as anyone else.

Nice to know, but not a find by any means and definitely not a 'technique'.

 

[ToastMAN]

haha too funny