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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

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Zankoku

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You think Wavedashing is "high level"? Wavedashing is unpunishable by all means, it doesn't get any noobier than that. Try playing where you can choose between rolling, running, fox trotting, walking, short hopping as all legitimate options versus only wavedashing and TELL me again that Melee is more in depth.
I played what can be considered a pretty heavily ground-based Sheik, along with Peach, in Melee. As far as wavedashing went, I rarely actually used it for anything legitimate other than keeping myself in motion when I wasn't directly attacking the opponent. And Peach's wavedash is far from her only legitimate option.

You're really overreacting if you think wavedashing is somehow broken. Tell you what, we can play a game of Melee sometime, you can wavedash and I'll punish this "unpunishable" approach for you. With something as simple as pressing the C-Stick down.
 

Demon Kirby

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I just wanted to stop by and see how things were progressing.

I don't think i've ever made a post that didn't just emit awesome everywhere.
There's one!


In my mind, the only real edge Melee has over Brawl in being competitive is that it is faster paced. Other than that, it's simply a different game with a new way to play it successfully.
Mmm . . . no. Someone will post a regurtitated argument for this eventually, but not me; not now.

@Ankoku: a few things. First, your constant changing of avatars and signatures annoys me. Second . . . no, that's pretty much it.
 

Wekk

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No, I don't think wavedashing is broken. I am simply responding to the argument in favor of melee being better because high level "techs", namely wavedashing, existed then. I was saying that it was quite the opposite: Once you learn how to wavedash (and it really isn't that hard) that you have a really easy learning curve on how to space yourself to and from your opponent. In Brawl, you don't have that luxury, so you have to decide between rolling, dashing, etc. that I mentioned before. If you didn't hardly wavedash and still did well, then I submit to that point.
 

Demon Kirby

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Yeah, but they're so pretty! :)
I object. I've browsed, lurked, and brought hell upon many forums, and I've seen enough anime crap to fill up my computer.

But now we're getting off-topic. Carry on with the regurtitated arguments and occasional bull**** tossing with a side of enlightenment.
Can we go back to that second part?
Please do.

Time for me to go read.
 

Papapaint

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No, I don't think wavedashing is broken. I am simply responding to the argument in favor of melee being better because high level "techs", namely wavedashing, existed then. I was saying that it was quite the opposite: Once you learn how to wavedash (and it really isn't that hard) that you have a really easy learning curve on how to space yourself to and from your opponent. In Brawl, you don't have that luxury, so you have to decide between rolling, dashing, etc. that I mentioned before. If you didn't hardly wavedash and still did well, then I submit to that point.
Last post before you go on the ignore list.

Melee's competitiveness has jack **** to do with ATs. Read the god **** thread. Not a single melee advocate is saying "OMG NO WAVEDASHN OR L-CANCEELIN! WTF BRAWL SUCKS."

If you're not going to , then get the hell out.

And we're not "taking shots" at brawl. Holy ****, this thread has just degraded. It started out productively, evolved into us developing potential strategies and discussing ways to advance the metagame, and now it's just bickering.

Can we go back to that second part?
 

Spellman

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Last post before you go on the ignore list.

Melee's competitiveness has jack **** to do with ATs. Read the god **** thread. Not a single melee advocate is saying "OMG NO WAVEDASHN OR L-CANCEELIN! WTF BRAWL SUCKS."

If you're not going to , then get the hell out.

And we're not "taking shots" at brawl. Holy ****, this thread has just degraded. It started out productively, evolved into us developing potential strategies and discussing ways to advance the metagame, and now it's just bickering.

Can we go back to that second part?
O.K., that is not what the title of this thread suggest, nor the content of the original post. If a conversation about developing new techniques in Brawl is supposed to be going on here, then that's fine, I'd love for that to happen. AlphaZealot posted a thread that had the same intentions and was much more appropriate for this board, and is full of people discussing their characters meta-games, but it fell under.
Stop Promoting and Perpetuating Myths About Brawl-Positive Views for Brawl

Really now, on a board that is practically a fan-base for Brawl, you'd think that it would be practically devoid of threads that bash on it besides trolls, but it literally feels like the game is being attacked. Did everyone who liked Melee more just immigrate to the Brawl forums so that they could spread the fact that they liked Melee more here? I'm well aware that many people are still here since they were here before the game came out, but the Melee forums should be booming with active supporters by now, what with all the people who have denounced Brawl as worth playing. It's undermining people who want to play this game competitively, making them feel like they are playing a stupid or dumbed down game. Making people think this is a game that has no chance of ever becoming competitive or standing up to Melee. Or just making them mad for calling their game uncompetitive. Really now. Competitive spirit has always been high in Smash, why undermine the people who are playing it competitively?

If there was something productive forming out of this, then that's all well and good, it would be nice if it could continue, but people defending Brawl on the Brawl forum makes the most sense, and this thread is just like a beacon summoning people to do it.
 

controlfreak7

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I may seem to be coming out of no where, but i have a few things to address.

I'm taking a neutral stance, but i want to say a few things about Brawl.

1. Its obviously slower than melee which isn't much of a good thing.

2. Like Hugs, Nealdt, and Gimpyfish said on the 1up show, There is a lot more defensive options... Which results in making punishment a lot more difficult, this may be a good thing in terms of competition.

3. From what I've seen it is A LOT more balanced than melee, and I can't say going to a tournament (especially being a fox player) and seeing too many of the same characters makes the game much more fun (and yes it does make a difference), I definitely see more diversity in brawl.

4. In all reality brawl is going to be a competitive game no matter what, and no one can really stop it, but... the truth is whether or not it will meet up or be better than melee it is way too early to determine. Imagine Melee without all of the discovered and commonly used advanced techs that player used. Wavedashing wasn't something that was known from day one, in fact correct me if I'm wrong, but Melee was released in 2001 and I believe wavedashing was discovered in 2003 (by the Cape). Im not completely sure about L-canceling, but I heard something about how it was put up on the Japanese Melee website, but never on the American. I also believe moonwalking came in to play not more than 2 years ago... If you want something to keep your hopes, Dedede has a chaingrab that can be done at any percent on some of the characters that it can be done on... Pikachu has chain grabs in multiple directions that can get some characters to 100+ percent... What does this prove? The game obviously was not tested very well and the weren't even in a rush to get it finished (they delayed it for more than a year lol). Wavedashing was supposedly discovered before melee was released, but kept in because they were in a rush to sell the game...

5. Even if nothing is found that could make the competitive play of brawl excel, it is just a completely changed melee. Just because the game is played differently, (no matter how significantly) it doesn't have to change how good the competitive play or whatever else might be a concern will be. And apparently it seems like in some cases the actual issue here is people aren't very fond of change for whatever reason.

And yes i know point number 4 probably has a lot of points already made but it is the absolute truth.

I have a question that I know most likely can't be answered by anyone in here so im going to make a thread out of it...
 

Wiseguy

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O.K., that is not what the title of this thread suggest, nor the content of the original post. If a conversation about developing new techniques in Brawl is supposed to be going on here, then that's fine, I'd love for that to happen. AlphaZealot posted a thread that had the same intentions and was much more appropriate for this board, and is full of people discussing their characters meta-games, but it fell under.
Stop Promoting and Perpetuating Myths About Brawl-Positive Views for Brawl

Really now, on a board that is practically a fan-base for Brawl, you'd think that it would be practically devoid of threads that bash on it besides trolls, but it literally feels like the game is being attacked. Did everyone who liked Melee more just immigrate to the Brawl forums so that they could spread the fact that they liked Melee more here? I'm well aware that many people are still here since they were here before the game came out, but the Melee forums should be booming with active supporters by now, what with all the people who have denounced Brawl as worth playing. It's undermining people who want to play this game competitively, making them feel like they are playing a stupid or dumbed down game. Making people think this is a game that has no chance of ever becoming competitive or standing up to Melee. Or just making them mad for calling their game uncompetitive. Really now. Competitive spirit has always been high in Smash, why undermine the people who are playing it competitively?

If there was something productive forming out of this, then that's all well and good, it would be nice if it could continue, but people defending Brawl on the Brawl forum makes the most sense, and this thread is just like a beacon summoning people to do it.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153322&page=89

I tried to make a related point a few pages back, but basically what Scar has done is given competitiveness a new defintion: "reliable measurement of skill". By revising a word with an established meaning, he's kind of asking for controversy as folks come here expecting to debate about ACTUAL competitiveness - which is more than just deciding who is more skilled. It really is.
 

Keitaro

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Wow, how did I just notice this.

Anywayz, I feel I understand you on most points but it just gets annoying only when you post stuff throughout the boards like "Brawl is awful" or "Brawl is competitive garbage".

This causes some people to argue with you even though they agree with you making them lose inevitably cause they were on your side in the first place, but with the way you potrayed Brawl they felt they had to argue. I think that's what happened when I first debated with you in the past.

I like both games and will continue to play both "mostly Brawl though" but I just had to state this as I see this outcome a little over 50% of the time you post elsewhere about Brawl.
 

Scar

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Anywayz, I feel I understand you on most points but it just gets annoying only when you post stuff throughout the boards like "Brawl is awful" or "Brawl is competitive garbage".
i..e. "Leave Brawl Alone." If it's really that bad then I'm going to pick on it like it's that bad.
 

Veil2222

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No one is saying don't criticize it, just be productive and have a point. If you're going to say something so blunt and biased as "Brawl sucks" you're going to have to give reasons every time you say it or someone is going to think you're just being an *** and argue with you.
 

Xzax Kasrani

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Dudes, >.>. Brawls competivie, theres tournaments ok. If you hate brawl then ok thats your problem but your missing out stay with melee but just dropped this subject its pointless.

BTW Tripping isnt THAT bad, it can test your reaction time, which can make you an over all best player
 

optimusprimm

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Sure, Melee may be more competitive--but it is competitive in a degenerate manner. Melee "skill" is measured by how well you can abuse bugs in the game (wavedashing). The game got to a point where only a few characters were viable options for bing competitive. This, my friend, is a bad example of competitiveness.

And "he who should win will win" is a terrible definition of competitive. It's a good definition of elitism, though.

As for Brawl, as of yet there are no bugs to exploit and we have lost L-canceling. Okay, what have we gained? Not to mention the tech of air-dodge to attack, and all of the combo potential that opens up, there are more fundamental changes. Quite simply, the character roster is more balanced (As of now), so that most characters have a fair shot at winning any match. There is no defined order of what to play if you want to win, and tis drastically opens up competitiveness. The tournament scene will not be as flooded with Marth/Fox/Shieks, and more players will be able to do well, simply because of the fact that they main other characters. Games are not decided on the back of game exploitation and skill, but sill alone. And if you're an old Meleer like me, and you keep losing in Brawl to the people that used to lose to you--GET BETTER. Don't complain about Brawl being less technical, just learn to play better than them. Otherwise they are simply better than you, and thus they deserve to win.
 

Papapaint

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Okay, people just aren't reading the thread anymore. I haven't seen anyone post anything in the past 4 pages that wasn't already addressed over and over and over.

Pancake... out.
 

Smooth Criminal

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You're really overreacting if you think wavedashing is somehow broken. Tell you what, we can play a game of Melee sometime, you can wavedash and I'll punish this "unpunishable" approach for you. With something as simple as pressing the C-Stick down.
LMAO.

QFT.

I think I'm going to leave the thread now.

Smooth Criminal
 

Lixivium

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Sure, Melee may be more competitive--but it is competitive in a degenerate manner. Melee "skill" is measured by how well you can abuse bugs in the game (wavedashing). The game got to a point where only a few characters were viable options for bing competitive. This, my friend, is a bad example of competitiveness.
And this is how we can tell you're a true Smash n00b. Wavedashing makes MORE characters viable, not less. Mid/low tiers like Luigi, Ice Climbers, Ganon, Yoshi, Game & Watch and Mewtwo would suffer far more without wavedashing than the top tiers who still have a lot of other advantages going for them.

And "he who should win will win" is a terrible definition of competitive. It's a good definition of elitism, though.
It might not be a complete definition but it should certainly be true of a competitive game, Otherwise what's the point?

As for Brawl, as of yet there are no bugs to exploit and we have lost L-canceling. Okay, what have we gained? Not to mention the tech of air-dodge to attack, and all of the combo potential that opens up, there are more fundamental changes.
LOL have you played Brawl yet? Why don't you do that before posting stuff here.

Quite simply, the character roster is more balanced (As of now), so that most characters have a fair shot at winning any match. There is no defined order of what to play if you want to win, and tis drastically opens up competitiveness. The tournament scene will not be as flooded with Marth/Fox/Shieks, and more players will be able to do well, simply because of the fact that they main other characters.
I like how people keep saying this and then give the "give Brawl more time for advanced stuff" argument in the same post. This is pure cognitive dissonance.

Games are not decided on the back of game exploitation and skill, but sill alone. And if you're an old Meleer like me, and you keep losing in Brawl to the people that used to lose to you--GET BETTER. Don't complain about Brawl being less technical, just learn to play better than them. Otherwise they are simply better than you, and thus they deserve to win.
Who are you to say what's exploitation and what's skill?

Infinite jump-canceled shines with Fox is about as technical as it gets and near-useless. That is why you don't hear anyone complaining that it isn't possible in Brawl.

"Advanced techs" like L-canceling and wavedashing eventually become BASIC for any competitive smasher; they're not great simply because they're technical, but that they allowed you to do more things with your character. Brawl took away all that possibility for the sake of "balance" and noob-friendliness.
 
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I posted this in another thread, but I think it belongs here other than anywhere else. I might even make a thread out of it.

Situationally, this incident would repeat itself if you were playing Melee. And only Melee (And quiet possibly SSB64).

This game was built from the ground up with a new engine with "balance" in mind. What we eventually discovered is that Sakurai didn't begin directly from the epicenter of the games engine to focus on the characters and fighting, but the actually engine itself. Why? To get casual players, competitive and non-gamers on the same playing field. many of the games mechanics clearly state this.

Hit stun reduction: This was very prominent in SSB64, fairly existent in Melee, but practically non existent in Brawl. Hit stun is an essential factor in fighting games in general that allow set ups and link attacks. An example would be 3rd strike, where it's possible to do a jab or L.k on a blocking opponent to open them up for a grab due to shield stun.

It's also the foundation for hit stun reliant combos such as SHFFL'd Dair>Falcon Punch at certain percentages on fast fallers. Hit stun was removed to where this is not only impossible, but nearly impossible to link any attacks that don't go beyond a 2-3 hit string and extremely low percentages. it's nearly impossible to link any thing to an aerial after 40%, or even on the ground. Single jab attacks are also obsolete due to this new engine.

The basic gist of the design was to only allow massive hit stun during high percentages; where it would be impossible to follow up to anything. This simply eliminates any potential for combos.

Multiple aerial dodges: Another aspect of the game that eliminates following up in addition to limited hit stun on many attacks. Another reason why some combos exist is because a player simply can't escape them without good DI without getting punished. If a player even made an attempt to Air dodge away from the middle of a combo, it would result in punishment; A smash or free grab; Suicide. This elements was implemented by sakurai so that you can defend yourself in the air at a cost. It was practical, and it had to be used strategically in Melee.

Now in Brawl, you can do multiple air dodges to avoid anything. Form a recovery, coming to the ground, or even being hit by a tilt attack. The massive hit stun reduction really gives this mechanic a lot of practical uses. Even in casual matches, you can see an opponent charge a smash to knock an opponent away due to not sweet spotting the edge correctly. It's a basic tactic that forced players to actually know the approximate distance for their recoveries instead of blindly using them (Which is the next case I'm going to cover). Punishing the opponent, even for a casual player, is nearly impossible.

Auto-ledge snap/Reverse ledge snap: A lot of inexperienced players in the Smash series had trouble calculating their recoveries (?) which resulted in getting smashed off of ledges and missing in general. Sakurai made it so that characters can recover simply by going near the ledge and automatically recovering. Recovery doesn't need any approximations what so ever; just aim for the ledge and you'll grab it as if you were Mario in Melee. Also, the auto-ledge snap causes other adverse effects:

-You can grab the ledge when facing the opposite direction of the ledge at all times.
-The opponent can grab the ledge as soon as the opponent has moved from it (This is probably the only good thing I can say about the ledge mechanics)
-You're opponent cannot execute any action during the invincibility frames on the ledge
-3rd jump recoveries are canceled immediately upon coming in contact with the ledge
-Jumps auto snap after the jump animation is completed.

Hit box tangency reduction (HTR): All characters had moves with hit boxes that weren't exactly annexed to the characters themselves. Even though it may seem bad, it allow characters to be able to space appropriately and land attacks at safer distances. This prevented a competent player from just running into an attack without proper timing and distance. Characters with disjointed hit boxes (Sword characters for example) were able to space their attacks very well because the hit box was slightly extended beyond the sword, just as a punch or kick would be extended beyond the foot.

In Brawl, character hit boxes are almost completely tangent to the character, if not reduced to where it doesn't exist that far beyond the physical character. Marth's sword for example has a hit box that just barely extends to the tip of the blade. I have tried to study Marth's hit boxes only to discover that his hit boxes don't actually hit beyond the sword itself, and the tip hit box is so hard to hit accurately that it can't be used effectively without rigorous practice and visual aid.

The hit box reduction itself eliminated spacing capability for all characters. Even though this isn't extremely bad, it just puts more emphasis on visual spacing than reflex approximations.

Tripping: This is another element that Sakurai used in the sake of "balance". for some reason, he thought that including a random element beyond your control was very suited for what is essentially a fighting game. I can understand items, for they can be controlled and set however you see fit. But tripping itself is randomly executed under certain conditions. It is believed that it happens more a higher percentages to prevent a player from staying alive for certain periods of time. Many people believe that it's simply a sigh of exhaust, but it's actually meant to keep a good player from moving too much at higher percentages of preventing that character from moving constantly. This itself is absolute BS. I have nothing more to say. Anyone who has played the game can conclude that this is an idiotic game element.

Reduced Character Control: Simply put, you don't have as much control over your character in this game. A attacks are automated, Ledge grabbing is easy and automatic, Downward C-stick aerials cause characters to fast fall, and physical movement over your character doesn't feel tight. this is probably due to the speed reduction and the inclusion of the new buffer system that allows commands to be executed in a fraction of time before the animation starts. Also, with random variables like tripping, you can't actually make a move or calculate an attack without risking randomly falling. This nearly forced characters to walk if they want to achieve ground movement without worry. I guess this is for more "aerial combat", but how can you fight in the air without prominent hit stun? How can you land an aerial when the enemy has multiple air dodges at his/her disposal?

Many of the previous competitive aspects of the games actually existed at E For All. An form of wavelanding, L-cancel, Crouch Cancel, Dash dancing and prominent hit stun for many characters. In addition to that, tripping rarely occurred if at all. But they were all intentionally removed so that the game can appeal to the whiny autistic children that Nintendo is catering to.

It seems as if Sakurai's philosophy on the smash series changed over time beyond what the developers really wanted. According to Sakurai, he believes that the Smash series shouldn't be competitive in any way, yet he claims to support the community. In the previous smash games, he didn't completely supervise the development of smash, for the developers actually implemented certain aspects of the game purposely to balance out the games competitive engine. Sakurai actually listened to some of his previous staff for ideas and implemented them into the game engine. Sakurai had an experienced staff with him, but this isn't the case in Brawls development.

Sakurai had a completely foreign staff at his disposal, that supposedly, consisted of numerous smash bros fans (Unknown if they were casual or not). Not only that, they were completely directed by Sakurai himself, under his beliefs and general philosophy. Sakurai isn't exactly a competitive person, and that aspect was directly focused onto Brawls core engine. even if he had many smash bros fans under his wing, they couldn't help but build the game under his general philosophy if that's what Sakurai wanted.

Beyond Sakurai, look at it this way. The previous installments to the smash bros. series were supervised by Nintendo back in the day, when they weren't entirely focused on the casual player, but the loyal fans and the casual players. Looking at Nintendo's philosophy now, how many of you can actually say that this wasn't inevitable? Even if this wasn't created directly from Nintendo, it's still supervised by the same company. With Nintendo's new marketing demographic and target audience, Nintendo obviously wanted this game to cater to the audience that can put more money in their pockets and not give a **** about the game after the initial purchase.

Fighting games in general often progress in their newer installments, which is the opposite of Brawls direction. When developers create a fighting game, they listen to the casual players, but also put emphasis on how the game can advance in the competitive aspect. This ultimately creates a game that is universally fun. The direction of Melee and SSB64 was catered to everyone, which created the great game we have today.

I know a lot of people are going to say "Give the game more time", "This isn't Melee 2.0", "The community wasn't built in a day", "This is how the game was supposed to be", "The game wasn't well polished and the games competitive aspect was created by accident". Sure, one can easily say that these things are true, but just look at Sakurai's philosophies and Nintendo's demographic, it's blatantly obvious that they're way of thinking was going to be taken into effect. Sakurai is non competitive and Nintendo makes their decisions based on economic benefit. One last thing, let me direct you to this article. I didn't find this BTW, credits to Gimpyfish.

http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=637

In terms of progress in the series, it's basically like this:

SSBB>SSB64>SSBM

All that aside, Brawl can still be competitive, but only if the community will tolerate the games obvious limitations, which kills the games longevity for casual and competitive players. A casual player can only be casual for so long until they master the basic mechanics and thrive for more. Casual players exist, but they can't exist forever. Progress is a natural process in both gaming and real life.

The theory of Brawl being a "Party game with fighting game aesthetics" is proving to be more true by the day.
 

LavisFiend

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THIS TOPIC IS LIKE A CARNIVAL FULL OF FUN!

YOU CAN JUST SLIDE FOREVER AND ENDLESSLY THROUGH THE PILES AND PILES OF TEXT!

YOU GUYS SHOULD TRY IT!


WHEEEEEEEEE ^_^ THIS IS...


FUUUUUUUNUUUUH! >=D

Seriously though, Ninja Gaiden> Brawl knobs. =)
 

blakinola

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I like both games. They're competitive in their own respects, one may be better suited for different players.

One fancies players with amazing technical skill and the other fancies players that never quite reached that technical skill. Now i'm not pointing any fingers anywhere, but there's WAY too much camping in brawl. Too much spamming. Too much fscking tripping. It's like playing against Triad all the time when I play brawl.

But when it comes down to it, it's apples and oranges, my friends. You play whichever suits your playstyle! Have FUN.
 

Plairnkk

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Messages
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Eternal pheonix fire i already made a long thread with essentially all that included ++more, but brawl newbies just avoid threads with logic and reasoning because they can't refute it.

Xzax, STOP posting your stupid opinions, you keep saying the same thing "zomg brawl is good leave it alone or dont play it"

And Wekk, the biggest and most obvious symbol to a melee player that someone is a newbie to the series and is never going anywhere is when we see someone *****ing about wavedashing. I could name 10 other things about melee i wish they wouldn't have ****ed over in Brawl before I even take wavedashing into account.

wait, actually, **** "i could", i'll do it

1.) l cancelling
2.) Adding tripping
3.) Ledge-grab lag
4.) Auto-Sweetspotting
5.) No Hit-stun lag
6.) multiple air dodges
7.) Power shield not reflecting projectiles
8.) move decay promoting camping
9.) No jump cancelling
10.) No crouch cancelling
11.) Wavedashing.

All that removing/implementing each of these options did was limit gameplay. If you think it's just wavedashing being removed we dislike, you're sorely mistaken
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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No one is saying don't criticize it, just be productive and have a point.
I think when I say things they're always on point somehow. Like what D20 just said... let's see...

Right, because luck is the best way to determine who the better player is.

Brawl fawken sucks.
Yeah, that's about right!

And if you're an old Meleer like me, and you keep losing in Brawl to the people that used to lose to you--GET BETTER. Don't complain about Brawl being less technical, just learn to play better than them. Otherwise they are simply better than you, and thus they deserve to win.
Your first paragraph shows that you have no idea what Melee is. Your second paragraph shows that you don't comprehend simple arguments. The quoted section has been covered. The "get better" is the solution in Melee. In Brawl, the solution is "play the game for 45 minutes until you've perfected all the tech skill, think about the situations in-game for about an hour until you realize all the choices you can make, and then get luckier."

The ceiling in Brawl is way too low for you to tell anyone to get better. The more I play it the more I realize how little there is to learn.

I posted this in another thread, but I think it belongs here other than anywhere else. I might even make a thread out of it.
You should make a thread. Very interesting, I'm going to read the whole thing when I get out of class.

Worthless worthless worthless
I think you are stupid. You have posted the same thing 4 times. Get out of my thread, please. And I know you won't, but I mean... way to be worthless. Completely and utterly worthless.
 

Lixivium

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,689
Eternal phoenix Fire said:
One last thing, let me direct you to this article. I didn't find this BTW, credits to Gimpyfish.

http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=637
Wow. That pretty much says it all, if it wasn't already apparent to anyone that Sakurai set out to make Smash into Rock Paper Scissors.

Masahiro Sakurai said:
I won't go into too much detail, but the game was built so that if a player is strong in combat, just doing the same thing over and over again won't guarantee they'll always win over their opponents. There is a mechanism of accidents occurring, balanced so that the game's progress and results falter easily. Whether you win or lose, you enjoy a hearty laugh, and move on to the next round. I think this makes quite a good game.
In a good, competitive, and truly balanced game, the appropriate response would be for other players to come up with strategies to counter that initial tactic. Not for the developers to coddle other players by handicapping the one using said effective strategy.
 

thumbswayup

Smash Master
Joined
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wars not make one great
I posted this in another thread, but I think it belongs here other than anywhere else. I might even make a thread out of it.

Situationally, this incident would repeat itself if you were playing Melee. And only Melee (And quiet possibly SSB64).

This game was built from the ground up with a new engine with "balance" in mind. What we eventually discovered is that Sakurai didn't begin directly from the epicenter of the games engine to focus on the characters and fighting, but the actually engine itself. Why? To get casual players, competitive and non-gamers on the same playing field. many of the games mechanics clearly state this.

Hit stun reduction: This was very prominent in SSB64, fairly existent in Melee, but practically non existent in Brawl. Hit stun is an essential factor in fighting games in general that allow set ups and link attacks. An example would be 3rd strike, where it's possible to do a jab or L.k on a blocking opponent to open them up for a grab due to shield stun.

It's also the foundation for hit stun reliant combos such as SHFFL'd Dair>Falcon Punch at certain percentages on fast fallers. Hit stun was removed to where this is not only impossible, but nearly impossible to link any attacks that don't go beyond a 2-3 hit string and extremely low percentages. it's nearly impossible to link any thing to an aerial after 40%, or even on the ground. Single jab attacks are also obsolete due to this new engine.

The basic gist of the design was to only allow massive hit stun during high percentages; where it would be impossible to follow up to anything. This simply eliminates any potential for combos.

Multiple aerial dodges: Another aspect of the game that eliminates following up in addition to limited hit stun on many attacks. Another reason why some combos exist is because a player simply can't escape them without good DI without getting punished. If a player even made an attempt to Air dodge away from the middle of a combo, it would result in punishment; A smash or free grab; Suicide. This elements was implemented by sakurai so that you can defend yourself in the air at a cost. It was practical, and it had to be used strategically in Melee.

Now in Brawl, you can do multiple air dodges to avoid anything. Form a recovery, coming to the ground, or even being hit by a tilt attack. The massive hit stun reduction really gives this mechanic a lot of practical uses. Even in casual matches, you can see an opponent charge a smash to knock an opponent away due to not sweet spotting the edge correctly. It's a basic tactic that forced players to actually know the approximate distance for their recoveries instead of blindly using them (Which is the next case I'm going to cover). Punishing the opponent, even for a casual player, is nearly impossible.

Auto-ledge snap/Reverse ledge snap: A lot of inexperienced players in the Smash series had trouble calculating their recoveries (?) which resulted in getting smashed off of ledges and missing in general. Sakurai made it so that characters can recover simply by going near the ledge and automatically recovering. Recovery doesn't need any approximations what so ever; just aim for the ledge and you'll grab it as if you were Mario in Melee. Also, the auto-ledge snap causes other adverse effects:

-You can grab the ledge when facing the opposite direction of the ledge at all times.
-The opponent can grab the ledge as soon as the opponent has moved from it (This is probably the only good thing I can say about the ledge mechanics)
-You're opponent cannot execute any action during the invincibility frames on the ledge
-3rd jump recoveries are canceled immediately upon coming in contact with the ledge
-Jumps auto snap after the jump animation is completed.

Hit box tangency reduction (HTR): All characters had moves with hit boxes that weren't exactly annexed to the characters themselves. Even though it may seem bad, it allow characters to be able to space appropriately and land attacks at safer distances. This prevented a competent player from just running into an attack without proper timing and distance. Characters with disjointed hit boxes (Sword characters for example) were able to space their attacks very well because the hit box was slightly extended beyond the sword, just as a punch or kick would be extended beyond the foot.

In Brawl, character hit boxes are almost completely tangent to the character, if not reduced to where it doesn't exist that far beyond the physical character. Marth's sword for example has a hit box that just barely extends to the tip of the blade. I have tried to study Marth's hit boxes only to discover that his hit boxes don't actually hit beyond the sword itself, and the tip hit box is so hard to hit accurately that it can't be used effectively without rigorous practice and visual aid.

The hit box reduction itself eliminated spacing capability for all characters. Even though this isn't extremely bad, it just puts more emphasis on visual spacing than reflex approximations.

Tripping: This is another element that Sakurai used in the sake of "balance". for some reason, he thought that including a random element beyond your control was very suited for what is essentially a fighting game. I can understand items, for they can be controlled and set however you see fit. But tripping itself is randomly executed under certain conditions. It is believed that it happens more a higher percentages to prevent a player from staying alive for certain periods of time. Many people believe that it's simply a sigh of exhaust, but it's actually meant to keep a good player from moving too much at higher percentages of preventing that character from moving constantly. This itself is absolute BS. I have nothing more to say. Anyone who has played the game can conclude that this is an idiotic game element.

Reduced Character Control: Simply put, you don't have as much control over your character in this game. A attacks are automated, Ledge grabbing is easy and automatic, Downward C-stick aerials cause characters to fast fall, and physical movement over your character doesn't feel tight. this is probably due to the speed reduction and the inclusion of the new buffer system that allows commands to be executed in a fraction of time before the animation starts. Also, with random variables like tripping, you can't actually make a move or calculate an attack without risking randomly falling. This nearly forced characters to walk if they want to achieve ground movement without worry. I guess this is for more "aerial combat", but how can you fight in the air without prominent hit stun? How can you land an aerial when the enemy has multiple air dodges at his/her disposal?

Many of the previous competitive aspects of the games actually existed at E For All. An form of wavelanding, L-cancel, Crouch Cancel, Dash dancing and prominent hit stun for many characters. In addition to that, tripping rarely occurred if at all. But they were all intentionally removed so that the game can appeal to the whiny autistic children that Nintendo is catering to.

It seems as if Sakurai's philosophy on the smash series changed over time beyond what the developers really wanted. According to Sakurai, he believes that the Smash series shouldn't be competitive in any way, yet he claims to support the community. In the previous smash games, he didn't completely supervise the development of smash, for the developers actually implemented certain aspects of the game purposely to balance out the games competitive engine. Sakurai actually listened to some of his previous staff for ideas and implemented them into the game engine. Sakurai had an experienced staff with him, but this isn't the case in Brawls development.

Sakurai had a completely foreign staff at his disposal, that supposedly, consisted of numerous smash bros fans (Unknown if they were casual or not). Not only that, they were completely directed by Sakurai himself, under his beliefs and general philosophy. Sakurai isn't exactly a competitive person, and that aspect was directly focused onto Brawls core engine. even if he had many smash bros fans under his wing, they couldn't help but build the game under his general philosophy if that's what Sakurai wanted.

Beyond Sakurai, look at it this way. The previous installments to the smash bros. series were supervised by Nintendo back in the day, when they weren't entirely focused on the casual player, but the loyal fans and the casual players. Looking at Nintendo's philosophy now, how many of you can actually say that this wasn't inevitable? Even if this wasn't created directly from Nintendo, it's still supervised by the same company. With Nintendo's new marketing demographic and target audience, Nintendo obviously wanted this game to cater to the audience that can put more money in their pockets and not give a **** about the game after the initial purchase.

Fighting games in general often progress in their newer installments, which is the opposite of Brawls direction. When developers create a fighting game, they listen to the casual players, but also put emphasis on how the game can advance in the competitive aspect. This ultimately creates a game that is universally fun. The direction of Melee and SSB64 was catered to everyone, which created the great game we have today.

I know a lot of people are going to say "Give the game more time", "This isn't Melee 2.0", "The community wasn't built in a day", "This is how the game was supposed to be", "The game wasn't well polished and the games competitive aspect was created by accident". Sure, one can easily say that these things are true, but just look at Sakurai's philosophies and Nintendo's demographic, it's blatantly obvious that they're way of thinking was going to be taken into effect. Sakurai is non competitive and Nintendo makes their decisions based on economic benefit. One last thing, let me direct you to this article. I didn't find this BTW, credits to Gimpyfish.

http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=637

In terms of progress in the series, it's basically like this:

SSBB>SSB64>SSBM

All that aside, Brawl can still be competitive, but only if the community will tolerate the games obvious limitations, which kills the games longevity for casual and competitive players. A casual player can only be casual for so long until they master the basic mechanics and thrive for more. Casual players exist, but they can't exist forever. Progress is a natural process in both gaming and real life.

The theory of Brawl being a "Party game with fighting game aesthetics" is proving to be more true by the day.
This is the best post I have ever read.
 

Yoshi_FTW

Smash Rookie
Joined
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Messages
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Give The Game Some Time For Christ Sake Its Only Been Out A Couple Of Weeks For The Love Of God!
 

aho43

Smash Lord
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melee was closer to rock paper scissors than brawl is. brawl is more like everyone has paper and they just throw it at each other. occasionally someone will roll it up into a paper bat and try to hit their opponent with it. but then the other person keeps throwing paper at them so they just retreat and do the same. brawl's ceiling is very low.

i'm willing to play both melee and brawl, but im fairly confident in a little while melee will take back over the scene once the novelty has worn off. this is coming from a person who was arguing with all the brawl naysayers, but after my first tournament and getting a real feel for how the metagame is going to be, once all the people who are holding out and not playing lame come to their senses and start playing the game super-campy and every tournament match consists of super extreme defensive play with nothing interesting in terms of execution people will return to melee, at least the people who i give 2 ****s about.

or if the community doesn't foster that, they are just going to quit. i think its unfortunate that the community automatically pushed brawl to the forefront so quickly, myself being one of them. it is an inferior game. brawl adds lots of music, replay value(single player), stages, online play, new characters, but thats not a good tradeoff for everything they took away from vs mode which is what most of us will be playing most of the time. they did a poor job with online too, from what i can tell whatever system they implemented for online play is stupidly inefficient. don't even get me started on tripping.

any new installments of smash will never be as competitive as melee unless sakurai has a change of philosophy or someone else takes over making smash games. brawl, like melee is designed to last for the longevity of the system. The wii has a few more years left in it, probably until 2010 or so. and brawl is and is going to keep selling like hotcakes regardless of what the competitive community thinks. unless nintendo or sakurai develop some loyalty and feel bad for screwing over the people who have truly been in the most anticipation, don't expect another installment of smash until their next system. and it will probably be bad then too.

if you haven't heard Nintendo also removed snaking from mario kart. I wasn't really into competitive mario kart, but that seems pretty similar to them removing most of the advanced tactics in brawl. Maybe in mario kart your car will just randomly explode to make the game more "balanced."

fyi I do think that brawl is more balanced in terms of where the characters are in relation to each other. however, the game is so limited and designed to reward defensive play that the ceiling for competitive play is much lower than in melee. brawl is still fun, but as a whole, unless i'm playing my friends who don't strictly play defensively, the experience just isn't as good.
 

bovineblitzkrieg

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
Messages
360
Location
Boston, MA
Great post Phoenix.

It's really too bad we have no outlet for our frustrations other than a message board.

I'm contemplating selling my Wii and buying an Xbox... The main reason I wanted a Wii was for Brawl, and I'm just utterly disappointed. Mario Galaxy was sweet but too short, and Zelda was a disappointment in my mind... and a good portion of the other games just take advantage of the novelty of the wii's controller... oh and wifi is horrible. HORRIBLE. I'm getting off topic.

Why couldn't Sakurai throw us a bone?? Just a measly scrap... something, anything... I feel alienated by Nintendo, and I've been playing since I had a NES at the age of 3. They always made the best and most fun games... playstation and xbox just seemed so impersonal.

Apparently I'm just too hardcore for Nintendo now. I don't mind that they're appealing to the masses, it's pretty cool. But why leave us hardcore gamers in the dark?


Edit: LOL i LOVE the comparison of Brawl to paper vs. paper, that's really clever and oddly accurate. The part with the paper bat is the best :D
 

controlfreak7

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
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You want some more of the sad truth? Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people weren't requesting the same game. MOST OF ALL, most people didn't want the same exact characters to be good and the same to be bad. The fact that the game is more balanced is not something that anyone should be complaining about.

I want to address tripping: Tripping is obviously something pretty stupid that was put into the game, but it is not as bad as people make it to be. As much as it can **** you up, it can also save your ***. Your opponent will never (and I mean never) make a prediction and have correct spacing for you to trip into an attack (unless they are diddy kong for you smartasses). Also, tripping is just as likely to happen when you are running away (or just away from your opponent) as it is to happen during combat with your opponent. It can screw up spacing just as much as it can help it. Hugs said it can cost you a big tournament... I'm not disagreeing with that I'm just saying it can also give you the tournament/save you EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONE TO TRIP.. No one likes tripping, I hate it just as much as anyone else, but it really is not as significant as people make it to be.

I'm sure that most people (non-space animal players) wanted the space animals to get nerfed, but not by taking everything away and just making them horrible. Well brawl gave people that much. I'm sure low tier players wanted their characters to improve, well they did (at least in my opinion) ness definitely improved (if you didn't then u're just comparing him to lucas), Yoshi improved, Pikachu got buffed up the ***. But you know what? I don't think it is honestly it was as a result of the sole fact that the characters were changed, but that the physics were changed. If you wanted brawl to be more like melee, then you would see really no changes in the tier list. You would not see space animals get nerfed and low tier characters get buffed.

So what am i really trying to say? That brawl was going to be a win-lose situation no matter what. It was going to be dissappointing whether it came out exactly like melee or significantly different. There is nothing in between. You have to choose you want to continue to ***** about the same exact characters being good or ***** about the game being entirely changed. One reason I'm happy about brawl is I don't have to hear people cry about how fox is top tier and whatever else they have to say. I don't have to see the same exact characters everytime I'm about to verse someone.

I'm not expecting this **** to sway people's opinions, but I really hope you can see why brawl could not satisfy everyone.
 

Plairnkk

Smash Legend
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
10,243
You want some more of the sad truth? Correct me if I'm wrong, but most people weren't requesting the same game. MOST OF ALL, most people didn't want the same exact characters to be good and the same to be bad. The fact that the game is more balanced is not something that anyone should be complaining about.

I want to address tripping: Tripping is obviously something pretty stupid that was put into the game, but it is not as bad as people make it to be. As much as it can **** you up, it can also save your ***. Your opponent will never (and I mean never) make a prediction and have correct spacing for you to trip into an attack (unless they are diddy kong for you smartasses). Also, tripping is just as likely to happen when you are running away (or just away from your opponent) as it is to happen during combat with your opponent. It can screw up spacing just as much as it can help it. Hugs said it can cost you a big tournament... I'm not disagreeing with that I'm just saying it can also give you the tournament/save you EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONE TO TRIP.. No one likes tripping, I hate it just as much as anyone else, but it really is not as significant as people make it to be.

I'm sure that most people (non-space animal players) wanted the space animals to get nerfed, but not by taking everything away and just making them horrible. Well brawl gave people that much. I'm sure low tier players wanted their characters to improve, well they did (at least in my opinion) ness definitely improved (if you didn't then u're just comparing him to lucas), Yoshi improved, Pikachu got buffed up the ***. But you know what? I don't think it is honestly it was as a result of the sole fact that the characters were changed, but that the physics were changed. If you wanted brawl to be more like melee, then you would see really no changes in the tier list. You would not see space animals get nerfed and low tier characters get buffed.

So what am i really trying to say? That brawl was going to be a win-lose situation no matter what. It was going to be dissappointing whether it came out exactly like melee or significantly different. There is nothing in between. You have to choose you want to continue to ***** about the same exact characters being good or ***** about the game being entirely changed. One reason I'm happy about brawl is I don't have to hear people cry about how fox is top tier and whatever else they have to say. I don't have to see the same exact characters everytime I'm about to verse someone.

I'm not expecting this **** to sway people's opinions, but I really hope you can see why brawl could not satisfy everyone.

Just shut up dude, you're beyond stupid. Anyone who uses the argument IT'S NOT THE SAME GAME just needs to have their neck ****ing hung. Seriously, nobody wanted the same game. Melee had certain faults that we wanted fixed, and we wanted a SEQUEL. The problem is we essentially got a prequel. We didn't want to see the same game, but we also didn't want to see one that was obviously inferior.
 

aho43

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 9, 2004
Messages
1,352
Location
IN UR LOOPZ
i don't think people are complaing about the characters so much as just the engine of the game. read my post. :p
 
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