Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[LouisLeGros]

GG

+1 internet to you for your epic win, no temptation to respond to the idiocy now

 

[thesage]

Marvel vs. Capcom 2? THE ENTIRE ****ING GAME.

This made me lol.

@Jafar:

You still don't understand how wavedashing works.

When u use an airdodge it cancels all areal momentum and propels u in the direction u press. When u land from an airdodge u slide. So wavedashing comes from airdodging right after you leave the ground and sliding using the momentum from the airdodge and jump. None of these aspects are glitches as they are all programmed into the game. The combination of all these things into a wavedash is an exploit and not a glitch.

Better examples of glitches in melee that pros use are float cancelling and yyg. Please complain about those.

The GaW comment was about brawl. The jiggs comments was about melee. Mango won Pound 3, a melee tournament w/ over 200 entrants, using Jigglypuff.

Y are u arguing that since stages are banned characters should be banned too? People clearly think that characters are way more important than stages. In all smash history there hasn't been a character broken enough to be banned.

And if you think the button combinations aren't tricky in melee plz try to do a perfect djcffl uair with Ness on your first try. That's just performing one move.

And l-cancel (i'm referring to it as lag cancel to talk about ssb64 and melee) was a glitch in ssb64 involving putting up your sheild or something but that animation is canceled, canceling ALL lag from an areal. This can only be done by pressing Z. In melee you can press R, L, and Z to remove half the lag (rounded down) from an areal move when you land it. Some moves cannot be l-canceled as their lag is already only 4 frames which is the minimum amount of lag you can have after landing an areal. L-cancel in melee was obviously put in the game by the developers.

Nobody knows why they developers took out l-cancel in brawl. There were other things removed that have been in since smash64 such has double jump canceling, and dashdancing.

 

[Shai Hulud]

They're called exploits if they aren't due to programming errors. The air dodge was programmed so that you could do it in multiple directions. The physics engine conserves velocity from air dodges. Think of the air-dodge as a velocity vector. That is, a character is imparted with some velocity over a predefined interval for an airdodge. This velocity is conserved for the duration of the interval. When a character strikes the ground before the interval's end, the collision conserves the velocity and the character slides by the x-component of the velocity vector for the remaining interval. So if you air dodge and hit the ground at a 45 degree angle half-way through the air-dodge (that is, half the air dodge frames have completed), you move by approximately 1/4 the magnitude of this vector (1/2 x 45/90 = 1/4). The exact distance the character slides depends on his traction parameter.

So you might have D = (Vx * T)t, where D is distance you slide, Vx is the x-component of the velocity vector, T is character traction, and t is the time interval remaining for the completion of the air-dodge. I don't know the details of the actual implementation, and the properties may vary slightly (for instance, character weight may also be a parameter), but these are the fundamental principles that govern the air-dodge.

These mechanics were all completely intentional. The programmers designed the air-dodge to function in this way. Did they foresee players wavedashing? Probably not. Players saw an unintended result of the air-dodge physics, that when air-dodging sufficiently low they could make t approach the total time of the air-dodge. And if they angled the control stick just below horizontal, then they could make Vx approach ||Vx||. Hence the wavedash was born.

There was no programming error, no faulty code. An engine was built and we learned to exploit it.

 

[Papapaint]

Oh man.

Just played melee for the first time since Brawl's release.

Holy god. The differences and increased depth are just... obvious. Seriously.

No silly buffer system, no incredible defensive advantage, no over-powered projectiles, actual hitstun, varied fall speeds, very tricky DI, increased movement options, an actual edge game...

Wavedashing, dash-dancing, l-cancelling, comboing... all work together to make a deeper game experience. I've been playing Brawl competitively pretty heavily, and this was my first return to melee... I'll keep playing brawl, but as of now, Melee is FAR, FAR SUPERIOR.

 

[Jafar]

This made me lol.

@Jafar:

You still don't understand how wavedashing works.

When u use an airdodge it cancels all areal momentum and propels u in the direction u press. When u land from an airdodge u slide. So wavedashing comes from airdodging right after you leave the ground and sliding using the momentum from the airdodge and jump. None of these aspects are glitches as they are all programmed into the game. The combination of all these things into a wavedash is an exploit and not a glitch.

Exploit glitch its the same thing. IT was not an intended outcome of doing something. Its still stands as a glitch.

Hence why wave dashing is a glitch.

Y are u arguing that since stages are banned characters should be banned too? People clearly think that characters are way more important than stages. In all smash history there hasn't been a character broken enough to be banned.

I was just stating that levels had to be removed because wave dashing allowed characters to be too powerful on the level.

And if you think the button combinations aren't tricky in melee plz try to do a perfect djcffl uair with Ness on your first try. That's just performing one move.

Now i never said they are not tricky but the error margin is lower. once u get the djcffl off the up air is easily done with the c stick and if i click cstick up it will always go off.

And l-cancel (i'm referring to it as lag cancel to talk about ssb64 and melee) was a glitch in ssb64 involving putting up your sheild or something but that animation is canceled, canceling ALL lag from an areal. This can only be done by pressing Z. In melee you can press R, L, and Z to remove half the lag (rounded down) from an areal move when you land it. Some moves cannot be l-canceled as their lag is already only 4 frames which is the minimum amount of lag you can have after landing an areal. L-cancel in melee was obviously put in the game by the developers.

It was used in a way that was not intended. A ****load of people consider it a glitch and no one can show proof it was put in intentionally.

Nobody knows why they developers took out l-cancel in brawl. There were other things removed that have been in since smash64 such has double jump canceling, and dashdancing.

My assumption would be to balance the game out. You cant say melee is more balanced then brawl.

And the effect of L cancaling on stronger but slow characters was too good. Now its gone.

SOmething im sure captain falcon players wish they had back.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Oh man.

Just played melee for the first time since Brawl's release.

Holy god. The differences and increased depth are just... obvious. Seriously.

No silly buffer system, no incredible defensive advantage, no over-powered projectiles, actual hitstun, varied fall speeds, very tricky DI, increased movement options, an actual edge game...

Wavedashing, dash-dancing, l-cancelling, comboing... all work together to make a deeper game experience. I've been playing Brawl competitively pretty heavily, and this was my first return to melee... I'll keep playing brawl, but as of now, Melee is FAR, FAR SUPERIOR.

As a game in whole, or just for the competitive aspect?


also, excellently said Shai Hulud, you just described wavedashing better then I could hope to.

 

[The Blackstar]

LOL. YHBT by Jafar. HAND.

 

[Papapaint]

As a game in whole, or just for the competitive aspect?


also, excellently said Shai Hulud, you just described wavedashing better then I could hope to.

To be honest, both. The mere fact that it can be both a simply-for-fun party game and an incredibly complex competitive game (Brawl is a great party game... but not an entirely complex competitive game) demonstrates its depth.

 

[BlackPanther]

They're called exploits if they aren't due to programming errors. The air dodge was programmed so that you could do it in multiple directions. The physics engine conserves velocity from air dodges. Think of the air-dodge as a velocity vector. That is, a character is imparted with some velocity over a predefined interval for an airdodge. This velocity is conserved for the duration of the interval. When a character strikes the ground before the interval's end, the collision conserves the velocity and the character slides by the x-component of the velocity vector for the remaining interval. So if you air dodge and hit the ground at a 45 degree angle half-way through the air-dodge (that is, half the air dodge frames have completed), you move by approximately 1/4 the magnitude of this vector (1/2 x 45/90 = 1/4). The exact distance the character slides depends on his traction parameter.

So you might have D = (Vx * T)t, where D is distance you slide, Vx is the x-component of the velocity vector, T is character traction, and t is the time interval remaining for the completion of the air-dodge. I don't know the details of the actual implementation, and the properties may vary slightly (for instance, character weight may also be a parameter), but these are the fundamental principles that govern the air-dodge.

These mechanics were all completely intentional. The programmers designed the air-dodge to function in this way. Did they foresee players wavedashing? Probably not. Players saw an unintended result of the air-dodge physics, that when air-dodging sufficiently low they could make t approach the total time of the air-dodge. And if they angled the control stick just below horizontal, then they could make Vx approach ||Vx||. Hence the wavedash was born.

There was no programming error, no faulty code. An engine was built and we learned to exploit it.

Now if you still think it's a glitch after that, you are really ****ing stupid I couldn't have said it better.

@thesage - You messed up by sayin that l canceling was a glitch when it was intended in both SSB and Melee lolz =P

 

[Papapaint]

It was used in a way that was not intended. A ****load of people consider it a glitch and no one can show proof it was put in intentionally.

Right, all they have to show is the fact that it was in both games and was recommended as a method to cut down the lag on your attacks by sakurai. But he only made the game.

My assumption would be to balance the game out. You cant say melee is more balanced then brawl.

Melee is more balanced than brawl.

And the effect of L cancaling on stronger but slow characters was too good. Now its gone.

SOmething im sure captain falcon players wish they had back.

Right, now slow characters get to be punished every time they even land an attack! Everybody wins! Except the slow characters.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I cant speak of tekken. or soulcaliber

but who the hell was ROLL CANCAL a glitch? That was put in the game. Street fighter has used move cancaling in a majority of there games. Heck SF 4 had dash Cancal till they removed it in the latest build.

And MVC2 was crap. MVC on the other hand.

Lol, god you are such a ridiculous scrub. L-cancel was put into Smash.

Roll cancel is not traditional move canceling. It only exists in CvS2. It involves canceling the first few frames of a roll into a special move, giving special moves the invincibility frames of a roll. It's a glitch that was never intended, and it is allowed in every CvS2 tournament. Every character can do it, and it makes characters like Blanka, who's already one of the best characters in the game, even better.

MvC2 may be crap. But it's a game where tournaments are held that allows glitches. You said Smash is the only game that allows glitches. I just proved you wrong with five examples. Seriously shut up already.

 

[Papapaint]

In the end, it doesn't matter a **** if we use glitches or throw bananas at the gamecube controllers... the discussion here is the comparative depth.

 

[thesage]

Exploit glitch its the same thing. IT was not an intended outcome of doing something. Its still stands as a glitch.

Hence why wave dashing is a glitch.

So do you call shffl a glitch too, as that was definitely unintended.

Both techniques are just combining aspects of the physics engine. I guess you could also call combos unintended as well.

I was just stating that levels had to be removed because wave dashing allowed characters to be too powerful on the level.

There were other things as well involving marth and peach camping, set knockback throw, kirby's neutral b, laserz, cargo throw, infinite loops etc. Wavedashing only factored in because of waveshining, and was not the only reason those stages were banned.

Now i never said they are not tricky but the error margin is lower. once u get the djcffl off the up air is easily done with the c stick and if i click cstick up it will always go off.

It's impossible to c-stick a djc >.> Well, it's possible, but it's just better to use the a button.

Do you know what a djc is? Say which characters can djc. It involves six inputs in order to properly pull off this single move and the timing is less than 10 frames.

It was used in a way that was not intended. A ****load of people consider it a glitch and no one can show proof it was put in intentionally.

How can l-cancel (in melee) be used wrongly? It only has one purpose, to cut the lag of areal moves in half. Nintendo knew about l-cancel in 64 and they put in a more balanced version in melee. Considering it can be done with the z button and the r button, which both do completely different moves AND certain areals cannot be l-canceled to have less lag than 4 frames, it shows that they programmed it in.

L-cancel doesn't cancel the animation of the landing lag, but it speeds it up making it skip every other frame.

My assumption would be to balance the game out. You cant say melee is more balanced then brawl.

Yeah you can considering in melee every character had at least one counter. As of now Game and Watch ***** everyone in brawl.

And the effect of L cancaling on stronger but slow characters was too good. Now its gone.

SOmething im sure captain falcon players wish they had back.

All the slow characters were still considered bad. >.> If anything l-cancel made them barely playable.


EDIT: Compared to melee, brawl is lacking >.>

 

[Jafar]

Now if you still think it's a glitch after that, you are really ****ing stupid I couldn't have said it better.
P

Unintended part of the game = glitch.

Go email the creator get his views on it.

Right, all they have to show is the fact that it was in both games and was recommended as a method to cut down the lag on your attacks by sakurai. But he only made the game.

Care to show where sakurai stated that? About melee please id be very interested.

Melee is more balanced than brawl.

Yeah i wonder why everyone played fox falco sheik falcon

Right, now slow characters get to be punished every time they even land an attack! Everybody wins! Except the slow characters.

If your ganadorf and u falocn punch a player how will that player punish you?

Lol, god you are such a ridiculous scrub. L-cancel was put into Smash.

Provide a source for that? If it was put in why is it gone now?

Roll cancel is not traditional move canceling. It only exists in CvS2. It involves canceling the first few frames of a roll into a special move, giving special moves the invincibility frames of a roll. It's a glitch that was never intended, and it is allowed in every CvS2 tournament. Every character can do it, and it makes characters like Blanka, who's already one of the best characters in the game, even better.

My mistake i thought u were talking about CvS2:EO which fixed that glitch.
So looks like pro players shoulda just played the updated version in tourneys no the glitchy one.

MvC2 may be crap. But it's a game where tournaments are held that allows glitches. You said Smash is the only game that allows glitches. I just proved you wrong with five examples. Seriously shut up already.

Actually you didnt prove me wrong.

I said smash is the only game I KNOW OF that allows glitches.

Now smash is one of 6 games i know of that allow glitches. thanks.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

In the end, it doesn't matter a **** if we use glitches or throw bananas at the gamecube controllers... the discussion here is the comparative depth.

I'm not trying to flame so don't take this the wrong way, but what is your definition of depth? I notice that people mention "depth" a lot and I'm starting to think I have the wrong idea of what depth is...

btw Brawl is more balanced than Melee XD

 

[Pink Reaper]

I'm not trying to flame so don't take this the wrong way, but what is your definition of depth? I notice that people mention "depth" a lot and I'm starting to think I have the wrong idea of what depth is...

btw Brawl is more balanced than Melee XD

Brawl characters are generally more balanced(although a few come to mind that throw it out of wack) but the game play is definitely heavily unbalanced towards defensive play styles.

 

[Papapaint]

Care to show where sakurai stated that? About melee please id be very interested.

It was in the SSB64 guide. I'm sure he didn't just "accidentally" put it in melee as well.

Yeah i wonder why everyone played fox falco sheik falcon

Actually, Fox Falco Sheik Marth. Good try though. Each of them has low tier counters as well. Considering luigi, a low tier, is incredibly tourney viable, there's a solid amount of balance. Brawl gives absurdly large advantages to characters with projectiles... especially olimar, falco, and dedede.

If your ganadorf and u falocn punch a player how will that player punish you?

Right, this is relevant to l-cancelling. Wait...

 

[Jafar]

So do you call shffl a glitch too, as that was definitely unintended.

Both techniques are just combining aspects of the physics engine. I guess you could also call combos unintended as well.

Combos were intended.. Thats why certain moves combo together and certain ones dont because of attack lag. Using a mecanic to cancal out that lag and make diffrent combos that were not intended.

It's impossible to c-stick a djc >.> Well, it's possible, but it's just better to use the a button.

Do you know what a djc is? Say which characters can djc. It involves six inputs in order to properly pull off this single move and the timing is less than 10 frames.

double jump cancal.
ness, yoshi, peach, mewtwo.

How can l-cancel (in melee) be used wrongly? It only has one purpose, to cut the lag of areal moves in half. Nintendo knew about l-cancel in 64 and they put in a more balanced version in melee. Considering it can be done with the z button and the r button, which both do completely different moves AND certain areals cannot be l-canceled to have less lag than 4 frames, it shows that they programmed it in.

L-cancel doesn't cancel the animation of the landing lag, but it speeds it up making it skip every other frame.

The way it was used in conjuntion with some characters was not intended.

Yeah you can considering in melee every character had at least one counter. As of now Game and Watch ***** everyone in brawl.

Care to explain why? also for now im sure at one point some one will figure out his counter.

All the slow characters were still considered bad. >.> If anything l-cancel made them barely playable.


EDIT: Compared to melee, brawl is lacking >.>

And now slow characters are usless.

And i dont think its lacking. Give the game 6 months and people will change their mind.

 

[Papapaint]

I'm not trying to flame so don't take this the wrong way, but what is your definition of depth? I notice that people mention "depth" a lot and I'm starting to think I have the wrong idea of what depth is...

btw Brawl is more balanced than Melee XD

"Depth" is essentially the amount of options provided to a player. It can be something like counterstrike, where you can have silly mods and crazy maps as well as a strong competitive skill-based scene, or something like final fantasy 7, where there's a heavy amount of customization allowing you to improve your characters.

Brawl has the party game aspect, but a very weak competitive aspect compared to melee. Melee allowed for more movement options, more playstyle options, etc.

And as I said, projectile+defensive playing >>>> any other character. Seriously. Play vs. a boozer as falco, laser spam, run away, laser spam, run away, etc. You'll win hands down. It's boring as hell, but you'll win.

 

[Papapaint]

And i dont think its lacking. Give the game 6 months and people will change their mind.

Only if the game stops being slow and one-dimensional... which would require some sort of "glitch." You don't seem to be too much in favor of them.

 

[Jafar]

It was in the SSB64 guide. I'm sure he didn't just "accidentally" put it in melee as well.

Was it in the Super Smash Brawl Melee guide?

Actually, Fox Falco Sheik Marth. Good try though. Each of them has low tier counters as well. Considering luigi, a low tier, is incredibly tourney viable, there's a solid amount of balance. Brawl gives absurdly large advantages to characters with projectiles... especially olimar, falco, and dedede.

yes i know who the top tier characters were you forgot to mention peach to your list.
I also know that
falco had an advantage over fox and shiek but a disadvantage to marth
Fox had an advantage to marth and shiek but a disadvantage to falco
and shiek had an advantage over marth.

Right, this is relevant to l-cancelling. Wait...

Just saying if you do it you hit em they wont come back. if you miss you should be punished.

 

[Jafar]

Only if the game stops being slow and one-dimensional... which would require some sort of "glitch." You don't seem to be too much in favor of them.

People advance and move forward to how others play. Its called adaptation.

if you look at tourney results it varies on what the players play

Ive seen ike rob marth g&w dedede snake lucas ness and so forth as winning or being high up.

 

[Papapaint]

Was it in the Super Smash Brawl Melee guide?

Beats me. It's irrelevant. You don't "accidentally" code something you put in the last game. It'd be like bungie "accidentally" coding the Battle Rifle in Halo 2.

yes i know who the top tier characters were you forgot to mention peach to your list.
I also know that
falco had an advantage over fox and shiek but a disadvantage to marth
Fox had an advantage to marth and shiek but a disadvantage to falco
and shiek had an advantage over marth.

They had low-tier counters.

Just saying if you do it you hit em they wont come back. if you miss you should be punished.

We were talking about l-cancelling. You can't l-cancel B moves. Ergo, this example is irrelevant. In any case, my point was that even when you LAND an attack--for example, a ganon aerial, you'll still be hit for it.

 

[Papapaint]

People advance and move forward to how others play. Its called adaptation.

if you look at tourney results it varies on what the players play

Ive seen ike rob marth g&w dedede snake lucas ness and so forth as winning or being high up.

Right, because it's an early game. That doesn't mean it isn't one-dimensional and slow. It's not a failure to adapt--rather, I've probably put far more time into trying to turn this into a competitive game than you (read the whole thread, I was a strong pro-brawl advocate), and it still doesn't change how powerful the defensive game is.

 

[Jafar]

Beats me. It's irrelevant. You don't "accidentally" code something you put in the last game. It'd be like bungie "accidentally" coding the Battle Rifle in Halo 2.

If you run off a similar engine it can be something thats just in there. the L cancal type was put in the game to do somethign irrelevant to what l cancaling became

They had low-tier counters.

That does not matter. Because in a tourney those low tier's never make it far enough to face the things they counter. Its just how things weed themselves out

We were talking about l-cancelling. You can't l-cancel B moves. Ergo, this example is irrelevant. In any case, my point was that even when you LAND an attack--for example, a ganon aerial, you'll still be hit for it.

Ok i was just using an example. Now if you use the ganon aerial how will u still be hit for it. I dont play him much ud have to enlighten me on this.

 

[Jafar]

Right, because it's an early game. That doesn't mean it isn't one-dimensional and slow. It's not a failure to adapt--rather, I've probably put far more time into trying to turn this into a competitive game than you (read the whole thread, I was a strong pro-brawl advocate), and it still doesn't change how powerful the defensive game is.

Its like hockey. they had the neutral zone trap. which teams later adapted to and learned to play against it. it took a few years but they did it.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Dude, pancake, just do what everyone else did and put him on your ignore list.

 

[Papapaint]

If you run off a similar engine it can be something thats just in there. the L cancal type was put in the game to do somethign irrelevant to what l cancaling became



That does not matter. Because in a tourney those low tier's never make it far enough to face the things they counter. Its just how things weed themselves out



Ok i was just using an example. Now if you use the ganon aerial how will u still be hit for it. I dont play him much ud have to enlighten me on this.

1. You don't code the same for both systems, and the engine between 64 and melee was miles apart. You're ****ed ignorant if you think you can just accidentally program something like that.

2. Tell that to Azen and Mango.

3. Without L-cancelling and with extremely low hitstun in brawl, ganondorf (and many others) have aerials which fail to send their opponent very far--allowing the opponent to retaliate before the move's animation even finishes. This is silly.

As for the ******* hockey example... that doesn't even sort of answer what I said. Yes, people will adapt to it. It's STILL slow and one-dimensional.

 

[Papapaint]

Dude, pancake, just do what everyone else did and put him on your ignore list.

**** good idea.

Done. Let's go play some melee.

 

[Jafar]

1. You don't code the same for both systems, and the engine between 64 and melee was miles apart. You're ****ed ignorant if you think you can just accidentally program something like that.

Why did they take it out of brawl?

2. Tell that to Azen and Mango.

Doesn't mango play jiggly puff who is a good character?

also whats the winning percentage do they have?

3. Without L-cancelling and with extremely low hitstun in brawl, ganondorf (and many others) have aerials which fail to send their opponent very far--allowing the opponent to retaliate before the move's animation even finishes. This is silly.

As for the ******* hockey example... that doesn't even sort of answer what I said. Yes, people will adapt to it. It's STILL slow and one-dimensional.

****ty or not its been made that way.

Im not sure how you mean by one dimensional. But the speed of it seem s the same. The speed looks pretty much even aside from the fact you cant wave and **** super fast.

 

[Magus420]

Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: INTELLIGENT POSTS WILL BE RESPONDED TO IN KIND!

 

[BlackPanther]

Yeah I'm definitely gonna do so after this post. Jafar you are definitely one big *******. YOu didn't even bother reading Shai Hulud's post did you? Because you didn't have **** to say on his, what a one track mind you have and it's sad. You know you're wrong but still sticking with the same argument "It wasn't intended so therefore it wasn't a glitch" well I'm pretty sure G&W's amazing back air was unintended so therefore it's a glitch that's pretty much what your logic says.

 

[stancosmos]

Well, it was well stated when brawl was released that it was intented to be more playable by all ages, which generally makes it less competitive. In my oppinion brawl is a much better game because of generally a wider stage choice/character choice Etc.. And although i enjoyed wave dashing in melee, im very glad they got rid of it, because without it worse players who cant use it have a better chance. I think if im just sitting around with friends and want to play brawl or melee, id easily go to brawl simply because i find it more entertaining if not played competitively. Im not too sure, but when i first started playing brawl i noticed it was a bit slower, which was a bit bad to get used to, but now that i am used to it i dont really want it to be any faster.

 

[Papapaint]

Yeah I'm definitely gonna do so after this post. Jafar you are definitely one big *******. YOu didn't even bother reading Shai Hulud's post did you? Because you didn't have **** to say on his, what a one track mind you have and it's sad. You know you're wrong but still sticking with the same argument "It wasn't intended so therefore it wasn't a glitch" well I'm pretty sure G&W's amazing back air was unintended so therefore it's a glitch that's pretty much what your logic says.

This is how I feel when dealing with people like him:

Which is why I'm up at like, 4 friggen AM.

 

[BlackPanther]

Well, it was well stated when brawl was released that it was intented to be more playable by all ages, which generally makes it less competitive. In my oppinion brawl is a much better game because of generally a wider stage choice/character choice Etc.. And although i enjoyed wave dashing in melee, im very glad they got rid of it, because without it worse players who cant use it have a better chance. I think if im just sitting around with friends and want to play brawl or melee, id easily go to brawl simply because i find it more entertaining if not played competitively. Im not too sure, but when i first started playing brawl i noticed it was a bit slower, which was a bit bad to get used to, but now that i am used to it i dont really want it to be any faster.

What people don't understand is if the worse players didn't want to put in the time and effort to get good at Melee by learning advance techs then they just simply don't deserve to be called competitors and dumbing down Brawl for those lazy *** people doesn't make it better. And Brawl is not turning out to be so balanced as people thought it was or would be. G&W is rising to the top as possible the top of the tier list so now we're gettin characters better than others now, that isn't what I called balance. Plus the whole defensive side of the game is now enhanced and the offensive side has been watered down to make the game even less balanced.

Edit: I was thinkin about takin out Melee and just sayin games in general. But Melee is a perfect example of what I'm talkin about.

 

[Jafar]

Yeah I'm definitely gonna do so after this post. Jafar you are definitely one big *******. YOu didn't even bother reading Shai Hulud's post did you? Because you didn't have **** to say on his, what a one track mind you have and it's sad. You know you're wrong but still sticking with the same argument "It wasn't intended so therefore it wasn't a glitch" well I'm pretty sure G&W's amazing back air was unintended so therefore it's a glitch that's pretty much what your logic says.

IF you did that then you prolly wont read this.

Care to point me to shai's post as im not sure which one your reffering to.

My argument isnt what you quoted. becuase that means there isnt a glitch.

When in fact it is a glitch. Wave dashing was a mecanic that was never meant to be used that was abusing the game engine which inturn made it a glitch.

The programmers programmed G&W programed that back air so i dunno how you call it a glitch. As they made the animation for that attack.

The wave dash SKIPS animations that were made. So tell me if you can still read this.

HOW can something that SKIPS many animations be considered not a glitch.

hey lets have a reloading animation so players reload there weapons.

Oh **** if i click reload and then back it will get rid of the reloading and insta reload. Yup that would be not a glitch either?

 

[Jafar]

What people don't understand is if the worse players didn't want to put in the time and effort to get good at Melee by learning advance techs then they just simply don't deserve to be called competitors and dumbing down Brawl for those lazy *** people doesn't make it better. And Brawl is not turning out to be so balanced as people thought it was or would be. G&W is rising to the top as possible the top of the tier list so now we're gettin characters better than others now, that isn't what I called balance. Plus the whole defensive side of the game is now enhanced and the offensive side has been watered down to make the game even less balanced.

Edit: I was thinkin about takin out Melee and just sayin games in general. But Melee is a perfect example of what I'm talkin about.

there will always be tiers. No game has perfect balance.

Of course some characters will be better then others. but the amount is what makes the differance.

 

[LouisLeGros]

This is how I feel when dealing with people like him:

Which is why I'm up at like, 4 friggen AM.

thank goodness for direct linking, I had lost the link for that comic a long time ago but I have a bunch of them saved and I get upset everytime I see one of those comic because I don't remember where they come from.

 

[Papapaint]

thank goodness for direct linking, I had lost the link for that comic a long time ago but I have a bunch of them saved and I get upset everytime I see one of those comic because I don't remember where they come from.

xkcd.com

best webcomic ever.

 

[Wind Owl]

Why did they take it out of brawl?

Because Sakurai wanted noobs to be able to beat pros who practiced the timing for it, so now most aerials have basically zero lag, while others are stuck uncancellable.

****ty or not its been made that way.

Either you're trying to make a blanket "Brawl is how it is, deal with it" and blatantly ignoring the OP, or you seem to think that the original argument has merit, in which case you're failing to illustrate why.

Im not sure how you mean by one dimensional.

Reading the starred posts in the OP will help you out there.

But the speed of it seem s the same. The speed looks pretty much even aside from the fact you cant wave and **** super fast.

First of all, you basically just said "the speed looks the same aside from the fact that it's not as fast." Second of all, go watch any Melee match where the players have some semblence of what they're doing, then go watch a Brawl match with the same criteria. Everything is slower. In fact, the stock standard was lowered from 4-5 in Melee to 3 in Brawl, expressly because matches were too slow.

When in fact it is a glitch. Wave dashing was a mecanic that was never meant to be used that was abusing the game engine which inturn made it a glitch.

This was covered in the OP, so again, I refer you there. If you need a link, here you go: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4126281&postcount=1

Whether or not wavedashing is a glitch has no bearing on whether or not Brawl is not as competitive as Melee, which, if you recall, is the purpose of this thread.

The programmers programmed G&W programed that back air so i dunno how you call it a glitch. As they made the animation for that attack.

Clearly your sense of sarcasm is lacking.

The wave dash SKIPS animations that were made. So tell me if you can still read this.

HOW can something that SKIPS many animations be considered not a glitch.

Again, this is completely irrelevant to the topic, but I suppose I'll indulge you in a response nonetheless. In fighting games, one action that "skips" another is often referred to as a cancel. In SSB64 and Melee, there was Z/L-cancelling that skipped the lag of aerial attacks when landing. In other games, such as the Guilty Gear series, there are several types of cancels that are all intentional and fully recognized by the programmers. Furthermore, the fact that touching the ground while airdodging puts your character into his idle state was, logically speculating, intentional. The default behavior would be for your character to sit on the ground with the airdodge animation until it ended, or worse, go through the ground, which would look pretty ugly.

hey lets have a reloading animation so players reload there weapons.

Oh **** if i click reload and then back it will get rid of the reloading and insta reload. Yup that would be not a glitch either?

.... What?

EDIT: Speaking of speed, wow does this thread move quickly.

EDIT AGAIN: Added more responses to Jafar's nonsense.

EDIT #3: Why has this thread not been stickied?