Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I've been off the boards for a while after my initial distaste for brawl. I've tried giving it a fair chance (for the third or fourth time)... it's just not as fun for me.

I know a lot of people think it's fun to have random items blowing things up everywhere, and that's fine. And a lot of people just play for humor. I have the most fun pulling off difficult techniques, hearing all my friends go OHHHHH and "HOLY F***!!!!" and basically flipping out about how ridiculous that combo was, or how crazy that move was, etc. I like the detail, the fine precision, the speed, the technical prowess, and the mindgames. I like the game to be about SKILL, not about random occurences.

Now the only things to get excited about are OH YOU GOT HIT BY A FINAL SMASH!!! or OOH A WELL TIMED FTILT!!!!

To me, mindgames are more fun at a breakneck pace. I don't want to have a full second to think about a decision, I want to have to make the decision before I'm even aware that there's a choice.

I'm just not having fun playing brawl. It's really sad too, I was SO excited for it. As much as I've adjusted my mindset and muscle memory to Brawl, as much as I've tried to make it fun... there's always something to drive me crazy.

Tripping is absolutely horrible, but that's been beaten to death. The extreme floatiness makes for a much more boring game. The speed is very slow, and ground movement is awkward. The edgegame is completely dead... why is the sweetspot so ridiculous??? The edgegame was half the fun of Melee... that's where most of the OHHHHHH moments came from. And spamming is better than before... joy. Oh those pikmin...

I have fun in competition... and Brawl doesn't cut it. Kudos to nintendo for great marketing, but f them for throwing the competitive scene in the trash. They couldn't even throw us a bone.

I suppose I'll have to treat Brawl like a party game, seeing as that's all it is. I've never really had fun with party games though. Blah.

 

[Jafar]

I've been off the boards for a while after my initial distaste for brawl. I've tried giving it a fair chance (for the third or fourth time)... it's just not as fun for me.

I know a lot of people think it's fun to have random items blowing things up everywhere, and that's fine. And a lot of people just play for humor. I have the most fun pulling off difficult techniques, hearing all my friends go OHHHHH and "HOLY F***!!!!" and basically flipping out about how ridiculous that combo was, or how crazy that move was, etc. I like the detail, the fine precision, the speed, the technical prowess, and the mindgames. I like the game to be about SKILL, not about random occurences.

Now the only things to get excited about are OH YOU GOT HIT BY A FINAL SMASH!!! or OOH A WELL TIMED FTILT!!!!

To me, mindgames are more fun at a breakneck pace. I don't want to have a full second to think about a decision, I want to have to make the decision before I'm even aware that there's a choice.

I'm just not having fun playing brawl. It's really sad too, I was SO excited for it. As much as I've adjusted my mindset and muscle memory to Brawl, as much as I've tried to make it fun... there's always something to drive me crazy.

Tripping is absolutely horrible, but that's been beaten to death. The extreme floatiness makes for a much more boring game. The speed is very slow, and ground movement is awkward. The edgegame is completely dead... why is the sweetspot so ridiculous??? The edgegame was half the fun of Melee... that's where most of the OHHHHHH moments came from. And spamming is better than before... joy. Oh those pikmin...

I have fun in competition... and Brawl doesn't cut it. Kudos to nintendo for great marketing, but f them for throwing the competitive scene in the trash. They couldn't even throw us a bone.

I suppose I'll have to treat Brawl like a party game, seeing as that's all it is. I've never really had fun with party games though. Blah.

You should have never been playing melee in the first if thats what you enjoy. The game is items, the game is made for children.

The game was not made to be competative. It had to be heavily altered to be competative. And it needed glitches to make it run better.

If you want competition fo play a diffrent fighting game.

maybee streetfighter and oen day you can hear this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3V2eacPUko

 

[Fletch]

I can't even mention how many times I've started to give chase to try to follow something up and tripped. It's almost as if the game starts wagging its finger in my face going "No no no, you almost had a combo there, and we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings."

I started laughing at this, can't count the amount of times this has happened and how frustrating it is.

 

[thumbswayup]

You should have never been playing melee in the first if thats what you enjoy. The game is items, the game is made for children.

The game was not made to be competative. It had to be heavily altered to be competative. And it needed glitches to make it run better.

If you want competition fo play a diffrent fighting game.

maybee streetfighter and oen day you can hear this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3V2eacPUko

L-cancel is not a glitch. Dash dance is not a glitch. Edgehog is not a glitch. The only AT that could qualify as one is wavedash. That doesn't even matter, the best captain falcons in the world did not need to use it to win. I could **** you using everything that was intended to be the game regardless. The game is not made for children, it is extremely fast paced. I remember when i bought it and played it when i was 14. It was fun, but I grew bored of multiplayer action very quickly. I could only do maybe 2 or 3 hours before not finding it fun. Now that I now how to ACTUALLy play the game, I can play it on 10 hour stretches and never grow tired of it. The game is perfection.

You're "heavily altered" statement is completely unfounded and wrong. Counting wavedashing, that's ONE glitch. How is that HEAVILY ALTERED? Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[cobaltblue]

Correction: The game is made for kids. Nintendo has no intrest in the hardecore/competive crowd. If they did they would pull a capcom and invite top players for design suggestions and items/randomness would be all but elimineated. Wifi may even have the option to atleast let you chat and host rooms.

Agree with everything else though.

 

[jwj442]

Why do people say edgehogging doesn't work any more? I've gotten plenty of edgehog kills vs. Marth, Toon Link, and others and have gotten edgehog killed. The timing is harder, but it's still effective.

And to say "casual players are children" is as stupid as saying "tourney players only use final destination and don't know how to have fun with the game." BTW, the reason Nintendo's online is uniformly garbage is because Japan doesn't care much about robust online (they're happy with very basic stuff) and unfortunately we have to suffer. "Children might get molested" or whatever NoA says is just their damage control of sorts.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Do you know what a mindgame is?

I know what a mindgame is, I know very well what mindgames are. Brawl lacks any real mindgames and even more so, there's no real necessity for mindgames.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

ITT: People who don't know jack squat about Brawl

 

[Pink Reaper]

ITT: People who don't know jack squat about Brawl

56K, its fine if you like Brawl, but unless your actually going to contribute to the debate and actually attempt to prove anything you need to just **** off.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Melee and brawl were never made to be very competative games. There being changed to be competative by players which in essence makes the game not be what it is.

The competative ness is diffrent. L cancaling was a necessatiy in melee because of major character lag. Wave dashing was un-needed and should have never been used. Its like a glitch in the game. Doing a dash animation when you shouldnt be able to. (correct me if thats way off)

Things that were not added into the game should not be used. If its something you do that gives a good effect because the game does it but is not supposed to it shouldnt be allowed in the first place.

Brawl is much more balanced of a game for now. While in melee fox and falco were very good and managed to smoke most competition.

So far lots of various teams/players characters have won so far in brawl. Game and watch ike dedede snake r.o.b marth and many more.

Brawl is being made into competative game just as melee was, your changing a game from what its supposed to be into a game its not.

The games were never meant to be competative. But u turn off all the items and only play on one -two level's and you take away the whole game.

Yes not using items, or smash balls is ok. But it makes the game naked where its made into a normal fighter which doesnt compete to real fighting games like street fighter guilty gear.

Your playing a game where you have no margin of error while doing a special or a smash.
Its like playing capcom vs snk with EOism.

You just dilute the game.

To me, it's not that Brawl is not competitive only, it's less fun. Everyone feels the same when airborne, recovery is too easy (piece of cake), combos are non-existent or are limited to two hits, and you don't get punished for making an error. I can get bored of Brawl, I can't get bored of Melee!

 

[Eggm]

I've been off the boards for a while after my initial distaste for brawl. I've tried giving it a fair chance (for the third or fourth time)... it's just not as fun for me.

I know a lot of people think it's fun to have random items blowing things up everywhere, and that's fine. And a lot of people just play for humor. I have the most fun pulling off difficult techniques, hearing all my friends go OHHHHH and "HOLY F***!!!!" and basically flipping out about how ridiculous that combo was, or how crazy that move was, etc. I like the detail, the fine precision, the speed, the technical prowess, and the mindgames. I like the game to be about SKILL, not about random occurences.

Now the only things to get excited about are OH YOU GOT HIT BY A FINAL SMASH!!! or OOH A WELL TIMED FTILT!!!!

To me, mindgames are more fun at a breakneck pace. I don't want to have a full second to think about a decision, I want to have to make the decision before I'm even aware that there's a choice.

I'm just not having fun playing brawl. It's really sad too, I was SO excited for it. As much as I've adjusted my mindset and muscle memory to Brawl, as much as I've tried to make it fun... there's always something to drive me crazy.

Tripping is absolutely horrible, but that's been beaten to death. The extreme floatiness makes for a much more boring game. The speed is very slow, and ground movement is awkward. The edgegame is completely dead... why is the sweetspot so ridiculous??? The edgegame was half the fun of Melee... that's where most of the OHHHHHH moments came from. And spamming is better than before... joy. Oh those pikmin...

I have fun in competition... and Brawl doesn't cut it. Kudos to nintendo for great marketing, but f them for throwing the competitive scene in the trash. They couldn't even throw us a bone.

I suppose I'll have to treat Brawl like a party game, seeing as that's all it is. I've never really had fun with party games though. Blah.

To me, it's not that Brawl is not competitive only, it's less fun. Everyone feels the same when airborne, recovery is too easy (piece of cake), combos are non-existent or are limited to two hits, and you don't get punished for making an error. I can get bored of Brawl, I can't get bored of Melee!

I feel much like these 2 people. And the only reason brawl is "more competitive" right now is cause theres tons of scrubs like jafar who know nothing about the smash scene as a whole playing who will be bored in 5 months anyway. I"d rather play with people who have the mindset of the people I quoted anyway. Anyways what happened to this thread..?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

You should have never been playing melee in the first if thats what you enjoy. The game is items, the game is made for children.

The game was not made to be competative. It had to be heavily altered to be competative. And it needed glitches to make it run better.

If you want competition fo play a diffrent fighting game.

maybee streetfighter and oen day you can hear this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3V2eacPUko

I must say, that's a really dumb response. It had to be heavily altered??? How???

L-cancelling, dash cancelling, cc, shffl, dashdance, etc were put in the game on purpose... and wavedash was found and NOT removed... so what are you talking about heavily altered?

And items are a choice, and obviously not fit for competition. They're just mass chaos, no skill. Some of us like skill, you know... there's a reason there's an item switch option.

God what kind of a response is that... It's for children??? Did you ever play competitively? It's quite possibly the best fighting game ever made.



Oh and jwj i don't mean edgehogging persay, I mean the entire edgegame is gone... especially the most fun part (chasing off the edge for spikes). You can't even drop off the ledge immediately after you grab on. *sigh*

 

[Jafar]

L-cancel is not a glitch. Dash dance is not a glitch. Edgehog is not a glitch. The only AT that could qualify as one is wavedash. That doesn't even matter, the best captain falcons in the world did not need to use it to win. I could **** you using everything that was intended to be the game regardless. The game is not made for children, it is extremely fast paced. I remember when i bought it and played it when i was 14. It was fun, but I grew bored of multiplayer action very quickly. I could only do maybe 2 or 3 hours before not finding it fun. Now that I now how to ACTUALLy play the game, I can play it on 10 hour stretches and never grow tired of it. The game is perfection.

You're "heavily altered" statement is completely unfounded and wrong. Counting wavedashing, that's ONE glitch. How is that HEAVILY ALTERED? Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.

I spoke of the glitch being wavedash in my first post. How is the game not made for children. Are you even kidding me. Your specials are done with one button. Thats not for children.

I never played melee so yes you could **** me in it.

Heavily altered? Lets see. NO items.. the stable of brawl... Minimum amount of levels thats heavily altered.

Really you mean you played with all the items and in all the levels in trournies?

In Brawl you play in every level and with all items on? Thats is very altered.

You have a set of rules that alter the game alot.

Compare any other fighting game?

SF only players that are banned are the ones that are not character selected at the start... and you pick any character any level and you good to go.

In smash you turn of all items you choose specific levels. That is heavily altered.

I must say, that's a really dumb response. It had to be heavily altered??? How???

L-cancelling, dash cancelling, cc, shffl, dashdance, etc were put in the game on purpose... and wavedash was found and NOT removed... so what are you talking about heavily altered?

And items are a choice, and obviously not fit for competition. They're just mass chaos, no skill. Some of us like skill, you know... there's a reason there's an item switch option.

God what kind of a response is that... It's for children??? Did you ever play competitively? It's quite possibly the best fighting game ever made.



Oh and jwj i don't mean edgehogging persay, I mean the entire edgegame is gone... especially the most fun part (chasing off the edge for spikes). You can't even drop off the ledge immediately after you grab on. *sigh*

Items are what the game was for. You want skill play a game you need to do your move set yourself. Items were made into the game for they may not be good in competation, but thats what you call altering the game for competative play.

How would they remove wavedash? How is the glitches they found in the japan version fixed in Brawl... Yeah i thought so.

Yes pressing forward b is much harder then doing a quarter circle punch to do an attack while timing that with combo's.

How is it not for children? The game was made with children in mind. Why did they throw in pokemon you think that was for the older mature crowd? Does playing competativly have anything to do with it. The game was made with children in mind.

It wasnt made with competition in mind.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I spoke of the glitch being wavedash in my first post. How is the game not made for children. Are you even kidding me. Your specials are done with one button. Thats not for children.

I never played melee so yes you could **** me in it.

Heavily altered? Lets see. NO items.. the stable of brawl... Minimum amount of levels thats heavily altered.

Really you mean you played with all the items and in all the levels in trournies?

In Brawl you play in every level and with all items on? Thats is very altered.

You have a set of rules that alter the game alot.

Compare any other fighting game?

SF only players that are banned are the ones that are not character selected at the start... and you pick any character any level and you good to go.

In smash you turn of all items you choose specific levels. That is heavily altered.

Well then I take it you play brawl with a two minute time limit with items on mid with only the original selectable characters on every level right?

Saying that specials are done with one button makes a game less competitive is ********. So we don't have to press an 8 button sequence to preform a special move, so what, that only makes the game needlessly complex. Besides, basic specials in SF are done with very little button input, usually just a single button plus a single movement of the thumb, you know, like most of the specials. You do have Supers, but not in SF II.

Also, why not bring up other competitive games. Halo is only played on certain levels, with certain weapons banned(Halo 3 bans the Mauler for some reason >.>) Its not about whats in the game, its about whats fair.

As for glitches, glitches are a natural part of games, and in 99% of all competitive games there are glitches that are universally exploited. Now, Im not going to go through the trouble of explaining why Wavedashing ISN'T a glitch because logic is obviously beyond you, but I will say that Smash isn't like most other fighters and as such shouldn't be compared to them.

 

[Rhubarbo]

STFU scrub, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Special are non skillfull because they're done with one button. **Sigh**

 

[Shai Hulud]

I happened to this thread.

 

[Jafar]

Well then I take it you play brawl with a two minute time limit with items on mid with only the original selectable characters on every level right?

Saying that specials are done with one button makes a game less competitive is ********. So we don't have to press an 8 button sequence to preform a special move, so what, that only makes the game needlessly complex. Besides, basic specials in SF are done with very little button input, usually just a single button plus a single movement of the thumb, you know, like most of the specials. You do have Supers, but not in SF II.

I never said it makes it less competative it takes away a giant level of skill from it. Even in street fighter 2 you needed to do your special moves using more then one putton and forward.

Also, why not bring up other competitive games. Halo is only played on certain levels, with certain weapons banned(Halo 3 bans the Mauler for some reason >.>) Its not about whats in the game, its about whats fair.

Halo 3 depends where you play. MLG plays with a diffrent rule set then a ggl tourney.

As for glitches, glitches are a natural part of games, and in 99% of all competitive games there are glitches that are universally exploited. Now, Im not going to go through the trouble of explaining why Wavedashing ISN'T a glitch because logic is obviously beyond you, but I will say that Smash isn't like most other fighters and as such shouldn't be compared to them.

If you dont think wave dashing is a glitch then ur kidding yourself. Your character is continuing to do an animation when hes not supposed to. Why is wave dashing not in brawl?

Im just saying if your whining about how its not competative enough you lost sight in the whole point of the game. Yes its fun it wasnt made to be a 1v1 competative game. Therefore its level of competition will not be what you hope it is.

Smash for GC was the way it was because of a glitch and the lag you get from the game so you needed an l cancal.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Dude... you really think that combos in street fighter are harder than combos in Melee??? That's ridiculous. Any combo in street fighter is much, much easier to learn than say, shffl waveshine waveshine waveshine grab uthrow uair... or infinite shine combos... or perfect drillshines with falco... there's much more to it than pressing down and b... it's the timing and the spacing that takes months to learn. The button combos are faster AND require more precision, plus you have to account for DI. Did you really play melee or are you just some ******** Brawl fanboy???

Techs were added for DEPTH. That's why the L cancel is there. Wavedash was left in ON PURPOSE. It would have been easy to add code that makes you stop on the spot when you hit the ground airdodging, but they chose to leave the sliding in. Your reasoning makes no sense... it needed techs? Well yes, techs make it deeper and faster... and thus a better game... what's your point? That they're not supposed to be there??? Go play Brawl and enjoy your children's game then.

And obviously, smash games are made to appeal to the general audience. Of course there's gonna be stages that aren't applicable to competitive play, and of course there's gonna be crazy items. Items are overpowered and not fun when you're a good player. The game is made to be whatever the players make of it, it's not just a mindless children's game (well, Brawl is). It's just astounding that they chose to eliminate the depth from Brawl.

Jafar man, you're just grasping at straws. I'm not even going to dignify you with responses anymore.

Props to all the real smashers holding it down, melee style.

 

[Jafar]

Dude... you really think that combos in street fighter are harder than combos in Melee??? That's ridiculous. Any combo in street fighter is much, much easier to learn than say, shffl waveshine waveshine waveshine grab uthrow uair... or infinite shine combos... or perfect drillshines with falco... there's much more to it than pressing down and b... it's the timing and the spacing that takes months to learn. The button combos are faster AND require more precision, plus you have to account for DI. Did you really play melee or are you just some ******** Brawl fanboy???

Yes if you think those combos are easier then compared to doing a combo in street fighter then your funny. Have u ever played street fighter. Timing and spacing yet theres no need to actually execute the move so you take away your margin of error.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCUXI1jhDBU look at the 20 second mark that combo.

Now that move where he grabs the opponent you need to do.
lp lp --> lk mp in fast speed. thats low punch, low punch, forward, low kick, medium punch

That guy does a combo and does that combination to get it off withought any lag.

Then go watch the video at 1:10 and thats prarring the attack (presing forward every momment you get hit) then getting that special off withought a single instant of lag.

I played melee and im not a brawl fanboy i like to play brawl casually.

Techs were added for DEPTH. That's why the L cancel is there. Wavedash was left in ON PURPOSE. It would have been easy to add code that makes you stop on the spot when you hit the ground airdodging, but they chose to leave the sliding in. Your reasoning makes no sense... it needed techs? Well yes, techs make it deeper and faster... and thus a better game... what's your point? That they're not supposed to be there??? Go play Brawl and enjoy your children's game then.

Wave dash was not left on purpose and you saying that is stupid. Its a glitch in the code. How come you can Keep floating in the air with toon link was that in the code? and left intentioally, how about moonwalking when they already took out wave dashing.

The end result was a glitch in the game and once it hit there was nothing they could do. When did i mention needed techs? I said it needed L cancal because of the characters having lag after using a move. Wave dashing was never intended and was a glitch that was used.

Melee is a childrens game so is brawl. There not made for competition, if they did you could take any character any map and play it at a competative level.

And obviously, smash games are made to appeal to the general audience. Of course there's gonna be stages that aren't applicable to competitive play, and of course there's gonna be crazy items. Items are overpowered and not fun when you're a good player. The game is made to be whatever the players make of it, it's not just a mindless children's game (well, Brawl is). It's just astounding that they chose to eliminate the depth from Brawl.

Jafar man, you're just grasping at straws. I'm not even going to dignify you with responses anymore.

Props to all the real smashers holding it down, melee style.

The games not meant to be competative. I never said items are not overepowered neither are smash balls. But to be competative you dillute the game, which itself shows it was never meant to be competative.

You whine and whine how its not competative but its not supposed to be. And it doesnt have to give you enough ways to change it to make it competative.

Its astonoshing that if you wanted depth and a game designed for competative match ups you would not play Brawl.

If you want a game that had competition made in mind specifically go play Street fighter Turbo hd remix. It was made with competion in mind in relation to balance.

Speaking of balance. Brawl is a much better balanced game compared to Melee. Maybee your one of those players that relied on playing the over powered fox or falco to beat other oppoents and now that there not as good anymore you whine and ***** because you need to just suck at this new game.

If you like melee then play it no ones stoping you. But stop *****ing about a new game because you cant have it your way.

THis aint ****en McD's

 

[arrowhead]

I never said it makes it less competative it takes away a giant level of skill from it. Even in street fighter 2 you needed to do your special moves using more then one putton and forward.

tell me that once you've killed someone with fox's drillshine infinite. or just beat any player who knows how to l-cancel. mmkay mr never played melee?

Im just saying if your whining about how its not competative enough you lost sight in the whole point of the game. Yes its fun it wasnt made to be a 1v1 competative game. Therefore its level of competition will not be what you hope it is.

im just saying if you're whining about how gamma ray's aren't beneficial enough you just lost sight in the whole point of their effects. yes they're cool but they weren't made to cure cancer. therefore its effectiveness won't be as much as you hoped it would be.

Smash for GC was the way it was because the lag you get from the game so you needed an l cancal.

yeah, because melee was soooo laggy

 

[Jafar]

tell me that once you've killed someone with fox's drillshine infinite. or just beat any player who knows how to l-cancel. mmkay mr never played melee?

Does it matter if i have?

im just saying if you're whining about how gamma ray's aren't beneficial enough you just lost sight in the whole point of their effects. yes they're cool but they weren't made to cure cancer. therefore its effectiveness won't be as much as you hoped it would be.

k?

yeah, because melee was soooo laggy

Yes because there was no lag after the time you did an attack right?

Oh wait L cancaling past an animation would be considered a glitch would it not.
Wonder why L cancal and Wavedash were removed.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

56K, its fine if you like Brawl, but unless your actually going to contribute to the debate and actually attempt to prove anything you need to just **** off.

lol no need to get all butthurt. People keep posting the same false crap about Brawl's competitive scene over and over. I don't feel like there's a point to try to "prove" anything positive about Brawl in this thread because the pro-melee crowd will pretend like they didn't see it.

Whenever I think of the brawl-bashing melee crowd I think of a bunch of old homeless men crowded around a dying fire.

I know what a mindgame is, I know very well what mindgames are. Brawl lacks any real mindgames and even more so, there's no real necessity for mindgames.

>____________>

come on. Do you really know what mindgames are? Doubt it.

 

[The Blackstar]

The competative ness is diffrent. L cancaling was a necessatiy in melee because of major character lag. Wave dashing was un-needed and should have never been used. Its like a glitch in the game. Doing a dash animation when you shouldnt be able to. (correct me if thats way off)

Things that were not added into the game should not be used. If its something you do that gives a good effect because the game does it but is not supposed to it shouldnt be allowed in the first place.

Jafar, if you're going to use games like Street Fighter to justify your argument, then YOU ARE A FOOL.

To say that because something wasn't originally intended by developers and therefore it shouldn't be used is just plain stupid.

I'm going to apply your exact argument to street fighter. There go all of your combos. Did you know that originally, you were never supposed to be able to interrupt normal moves to buffer into other normals or specials for combos in street fighter?

That glitch had such a positive impact that it's made it's way into almost every 2D fighter since that game.

To say that glitches and using things in ways unintended by developers should never happen is wrong and just plain narrow minded.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I never said it makes it less competative it takes away a giant level of skill from it. Even in street fighter 2 you needed to do your special moves using more then one putton and forward.

Your right, quarter circle + A is soooooooo much more advanced.

Halo 3 depends where you play. MLG plays with a diffrent rule set then a ggl tourney.

True, but MLG rules are the generally accepted rule set for most tourneys. Even if the rule set is different for a tourney its usually just an altered version of the MLG one

If you dont think wave dashing is a glitch then ur kidding yourself. Your character is continuing to do an animation when hes not supposed to. Why is wave dashing not in brawl?

Wavedashing was SLIDING you moron. It wasn't a glitch, it was just sliding caused by momentum when hitting the ground. There's still sliding in Brawl, we just lost the primary way to force it with the new air dodge system.

Lets try this logically shall we?

In Melee, when you have momentum and hit the ground, you slide.
Air Dodging gives you momentum
If you use that momentum very close to the ground, you slide.

Where's the glitch?

Im just saying if your whining about how its not competative enough you lost sight in the whole point of the game. Yes its fun it wasnt made to be a 1v1 competative game. Therefore its level of competition will not be what you hope it is.

Sorry if I expected a fighting game from a fighting series, never expected a sudden shift to party game only.

Smash for GC was the way it was because of a glitch and the lag you get from the game so you needed an l cancal.

So what about Smash on the N64?

Edit: @56k, we were both bottom tier mains in Melee, bottom tier HAS to know mindgames, you know that

To be more exact though, many people see mindgames as something its not. "Mindgames" is just the name that 'tactics' took for the smash community, sort of like "Wavedashing"(t!Mmy's right, it is just sliding) Mindgames are just the tactics you use to gain control of a match as Smash(or rather MELEE) was all about control. Sudden jukes, feinting, seemingly random shielding anything you can do to trip up your opponent and gain control of a match is what mindgames essentially are. Please note, mistakes that accidentally work once are not mindgames.

Brawl doesn't have the options necessary for these kinds of tactics nor does it have the need for them as control of the match is lost after one or two hits. Mindgames are meaningless if you can't follow up, and pointless if you can just run away and spam. Thats why I hate spamming, because even if you do manage to trip a spammer up, your not going to be able to do enough damage for it to matter.

Also, Mingdames don exits >_>

 

[arrowhead]

Does it matter if i have?


k?



Yes because there was no lag after the time you did an attack right?

yeah, it does. you've never experienced melee's gameplay but you're arguing that it doesn't take skill

just because something wasn't being used as intended doesn't mean that's a bad thing. but anyways, the developers saw how melee became incredibly competitive and they did what they could to try to stop that from happening on brawl. that sad part is, casual play will still be just as fun if the competitiveness of the game stayed. it seems as if they're deliberately trying to punish us for bringing out the potential in melee.

there's just as much lag after brawl's airiels as there was in melee's. so according to you, brawl should have l-cancelling too.

 

[Jafar]

Your right, quarter circle + A is soooooooo much more advanced.

In a combo yes it is. Oh wait i forgot not every character had a quarter circle + a. I guess players needed to know how to do moves for multiple characters and not rely on one move set list.

Oh yoshi does a down b... so does pikachu

Oh Ryu does a half circle+punch (yes most shoto characters did this though)
oh guile doesnt.

True, but MLG rules are the generally accepted rule set for most tourneys. Even if the rule set is different for a tourney its usually just an altered version of the MLG one

Thats diffrent, and its halo they took out alot. All the play is brs pretty much.

Wavedashing was SLIDING you moron. It wasn't a glitch, it was just sliding caused by momentum when hitting the ground. There's still sliding in Brawl, we just lost the primary way to force it with the new air dodge system.

Lets try this logically shall we?

In Melee, when you have momentum and hit the ground, you slide.
Air Dodging gives you momentum
If you use that momentum very close to the ground, you slide.

Where's the glitch?

BEcause it was never intended to slide. If it wasnt a glitch why did the developers never say it was in the game. Why was it something that a player found out. Why is it out of brawl.

Simple fact wave dashing was a glitch same with the way L cancal was being used.

Sorry if I expected a fighting game from a fighting series, never expected a sudden shift to party game only.

Sorry if it wasnt meant to be a total 1v1 fighting game
[qupte]

So what about Smash on the N64?[/QUOTE]

Simply put, they in fact were glitches, unintended side-effects of the physics engine, which is why they were corrected in Brawl, a game that focus a lot more on positioning, mind games, game flow, and above all else, balance.

If you cant see that Wave dashing and L cancal were glitches then your stupid.

I wouldnt be suprised if all anti brawl people are just falco / fox users.

 

[Jafar]

yeah, it does. you've never experienced melee's gameplay but you're arguing that it doesn't take skill

just because something wasn't being used as intended doesn't mean that's a bad thing. but anyways, the developers saw how melee became incredibly competitive and they did what they could to try to stop that from happening on brawl. that sad part is, casual play will still be just as fun if the competitiveness of the game stayed. it seems as if they're deliberately trying to punish us for bringing out the potential in melee.

there's just as much lag after brawl's airiels as there was in melee's. so according to you, brawl should have l-cancelling too.

They were glitches that were unintended. So they took them out. They werent intended to be used at all.

Yes because a company will say omg alot of people are playing my game competativly lets try and get rid of that?

NO they said hey there using cheap glitches to gain an unfair advatage lets balance this game out.


Thats why they were removed.

Yes l cancaling was required for players to cheap out the system. I worded it wrong. Same with wave dashing.

Wave dashing and L Cancaling are glitches. thats why they were removed.

Jafar, if you're going to use games like Street Fighter to justify your argument, then YOU ARE A FOOL.

To say that because something wasn't originally intended by developers and therefore it shouldn't be used is just plain stupid.

I'm going to apply your exact argument to street fighter. There go all of your combos. Did you know that originally, you were never supposed to be able to interrupt normal moves to buffer into other normals or specials for combos in street fighter?

That glitch had such a positive impact that it's made it's way into almost every 2D fighter since that game.

To say that glitches and using things in ways unintended by developers should never happen is wrong and just plain narrow minded.

When did those Attack cancals happen? Because they added it as a feature in EX.

 

[Pink Reaper]

BEcause it was never intended to slide.

Are you ****ing ********? Sliding is not a glitch, sliding is PHYSICS. Basic physics, which is why its STILL IN BRAWL. Hell, you can look on these forums for a ****ton of ways to force a slide(wave bouncing, craqwalk <- I hate that name)

I wouldnt be suprised if all anti brawl people are just falco / fox users.

I seriously get annoyed every time I hear this. ****ING KIRBY MAIN, RIGHT HERE, BOTTOM TIER FTW!!!

Stop being ********

 

[Jafar]

Are you ****ing ********? Sliding is not a glitch, sliding is PHYSICS. Basic physics, which is why its STILL IN BRAWL. Hell, you can look on these forums for a ****ton of ways to force a slide(wave bouncing, craqwalk <- I hate that name)



I seriously get annoyed every time I hear this. ****ING KIRBY MAIN, RIGHT HERE, BOTTOM TIER FTW!!!

Stop being ********

Really they still have wave dashing in brawl.

Basic physics are you stupid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpHpUEPBmzs

Ok lets see you stand still and slide forward withought moving. PLEASE PLEASE post a video of you as a human standing still then sliding like fox is in that video. PLEASe id like to see you with basic physics create a slide form no movment?

Or run forward then start sliding backwards, backwards and backwards.

Its still a glitch. They will always be glitches. THEY REMOVED the glitches. Get over it.

I said it for most. But most players whine because of them removing glitches.

its a glitch face it.

People used it for crazy combos when they shouldnt have been able to do them withought the glitch.

And good job for playing kirby. hes good in brawl now you should enjoy it.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Really they still have wave dashing in brawl.

Basic physics are you stupid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpHpUEPBmzs

Ok lets see you stand still and slide forward withought moving. PLEASE PLEASE post a video of you as a human standing still then sliding like fox is in that video. PLEASe id like to see you with basic physics create a slide form no movment?

Its still a glitch. They will always be glitches. THEY REMOVED the glitches. Get over it.

I said it for most. But most players whine because of them removing glitches.

its a glitch face it.

People used it for crazy combos when they shouldnt have been able to do them withought the glitch.

And good job for playing kirby. hes good in brawl now you should enjoy it.

Your not going from straight stand to slide in Melee. You leave the ground, force momentum in one direction, and, as Im sure you've heard, objects in motion tend to stay in motion. BASIC PHYSICS.

Granted, in real life, friction would stop you from sliding very far, but in Smash, each character has a specific amount of friction which is rather low, as such, sliding can be expected.

And they didn't remove glitches, they removed techniques, there's plenty of glitches still left in Brawl.

 

[Jafar]

Your not going from straight stand to slide in Melee. You leave the ground, force momentum in one direction, and, as Im sure you've heard, objects in motion tend to stay in motion. BASIC PHYSICS.

Granted, in real life, friction would stop you from sliding very far, but in Smash, each character has a specific amount of friction which is rather low, as such, sliding can be expected.

And they didn't remove glitches, they removed techniques, there's plenty of glitches still left in Brawl.

watch this video. Fox is sliding from a standing still motion. 1.26 in. Yup thats a slide from no motion.

OK where is the video of you running forward and then sliding backward?

Id like to see where physics say something in motion can stay in motion in the OPPOSITE direction of that motion. Which is what wave dashing allowed.

They removed 2 glitches... but yesh brawl does still have plenty of those glitches.

 

[Pink Reaper]

OK where is the video of you running forward and then sliding backward?

Id like to see where physics say something in motion can stay in motion in the OPPOSITE direction of that motion. Which is what wave dashing allowed.

They removed 2 glitches... but yesh brawl does still have plenty of those glitches.

The fact that you want me to prove something from a video game possible in real life makes me sad. Do you want me to double jump in real life too? How about grow angle wings and fly? Want me to shoot fire balls from my hands too? Once again, they didn't remove wavedashing, they just changed air dodging.

Edit: I watched the vid, and while im sure YOU see just stand->slide I can see each individual step, the jump, the air dodge, the slide.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Jafar, the "wavedashing is a glitch" argument has been espoused by scrubs for years, and the scrubs have always lost. So just save yourself some energy and stop being a *******.

Even if wavedashing were a glitch, it doesn't matter. It added depth to the metagame. The programmers' intentions are irrelevant.

 

[D20]

Its still a glitch. They will always be glitches. THEY REMOVED the glitches. Get over it.

I said it for most. But most players whine because of them removing glitches.

its a glitch face it.

People used it for crazy combos when they shouldnt have been able to do them withought the glitch.

Translation: "I'm bad at Melee."

I wouldnt be suprised if all anti brawl people are just falco / fox users.

I use Young Link. I support Melee. I am cool.

 

[Fletch]

watch this video. Fox is sliding from a standing still motion. 1.26 in. Yup thats a slide from no motion.

OK where is the video of you running forward and then sliding backward?

Id like to see where physics say something in motion can stay in motion in the OPPOSITE direction of that motion. Which is what wave dashing allowed.

They removed 2 glitches... but yesh brawl does still have plenty of those glitches.

Seriously stop posting, your ignorance and arrogance are beyond annoying. This is a video game with TONS of unrealistic physics among other things that simply do not exist in real life, and yet this is your point that wavedashing doesn't make sense?

 

[Plairnkk]

this thread makes me lol

also, melee players around the country already dominating brawl tournaments also makes me laugh

silly brawl scrubs =D

 

[Pink Reaper]

Seriously stop posting, your ignorance and arrogance are beyond annoying. This is a video game with TONS of unrealistic physics among other things that simply do not exist in real life, and yet this is your point that wavedashing doesn't make sense?

This reminds me of a guy who said he refused to wavedash because it looked out of place when Mario did it. As in, he said it was something "Mario would never do." He wasn't being arrogant, he wasn't being rude, that was just his reasoning to why he wouldn't do it. People confuse me

 

[ToyzSoldier]

If I could just make a suggestion to this thread in general. Its incredibly daunting to just happen upon such a good thread as this but to find that there is 70+ pages of missed discussion. Its too intimidating for new members to this thread, and they'll shy thus missing valuable knowledge they could've gained from this thread. If its possible, on the front page, to just make an outline of all the discussions and arguments that have gone through here, like a quick summary of each one and their resolutions. Then any new members that come by can just read the outline so everyone can be on the same page, and jump right into the discussion, knowing full well whats going on. So no one repeats the same argument especially.
I don't know if thats practical at all, maybe you could super duper condense each discussion to 2 sentences, but if its possible it'd be much appreciated. I'd like to jump into the discussion, but not even knowing what the current discussion about is, well.. unwelcoming.

 

[Jafar]

Seriously stop posting, your ignorance and arrogance are beyond annoying. This is a video game with TONS of unrealistic physics among other things that simply do not exist in real life, and yet this is your point that wavedashing doesn't make sense?

When a person posted stating wave dashing was simple physics i will state if it was simple physics it would be possible in real life.

The fact that you want me to prove something from a video game possible in real life makes me sad. Do you want me to double jump in real life too? How about grow angle wings and fly? Want me to shoot fire balls from my hands too? Once again, they didn't remove wavedashing, they just changed air dodging.

Edit: I watched the vid, and while im sure YOU see just stand->slide I can see each individual step, the jump, the air dodge, the slide.

Yes fact you said its simple physics.

Fact is double jump is impossible in real life. So is growing wings and flrying.

Once again you said that Wavedashin was simple physics to do with momentum so therefore it should be avalible to be done in real life. Hence why its physics.

You cant see the step the jump the air dodge your kidding your self. If i slowed that down to a slower rate you would see the animation of him sliding not standing still.

Dont fool yourself.

And they removed teh wavedashing glitch by fixing what was causing it. Hence removing it.

 

[Plairnkk]

Dear Jafar,

You're a ****ing idiot and I sincerely hope you die in the most painful way possible, as soon as possible.

Love,
Plank