Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Wiseguy]

3). The word "competitive" is COMMONLY ACCEPTED to mean the concept stated in #1 among the established gaming community, INCLUDING smashers.

I guess if I have to pick something to disagree with, it's that one. Skill testing is an important part of competitions to many, no question. But I don't think the majority of gamers (or Sm@shers) consider it to be ALL there is to competitivene$s.

ATTENTION EVERYONE!!!!!!

Stop being ********, we have the definition of competitive we're going to use, if you don't like it, **** off. Jesus this is getting annoying.

Part of the original post attempts to define competitive. I'm discussing that definition. Is there a problem with that?

 

[Newskool]

Wow... here we are debating about something as insignificant as the way OP worded something...I think it's time to accept the facts: Nobody knows jack**** about brawl, Nobody knows jack**** about melee, and we just spent 129 pages concluding that we probably aren't going to reach a conclusion.

 

[arrowhead]

I guess if I have to pick something to disagree with, it's that one. Skill testing is an important part of competitions to many, no question. But I don't think the majority of gamers (or Sm@shers) consider it to be ALL there is to competitivene$s.

then what else do you consider when rating the competitiveness of a game?

 

[WastingPenguins]

[Sorry, I had a bunch of threads open and I accidentally replied to the wrong one. Ignore this.]

 

[Jack Kieser]

Non-random isn't an opinion also >.> perhaps you might say that the relationship between skill and randomness is an opinion...

That's what I meant. And, yes, it is obviously an opinion because no one (here, at least) can agree on whether skill and randomness are mutually exclusive.

 

[arrowhead]

the more random a game, the less it skill it conveys

 

[Pink Reaper]

Part of the original post attempts to define competitive. I'm discussing that definition. Is there a problem with that?

YES! We had this entire argument already, I'm even pretty certain its the same people having the same argument

You've entered a separate community, you have to accept that some of our terms may not mean the same things they do in a different community. Gustav, Jack, Wiseguy, Louise(if your still here >_>) you need to stop having this argument. The meanings of words are NOT set in stone, they change depending on who uses them and where they are used. Does anyone remember when B.itch meant female dog and Gay meant happy?

 

[Dark Sonic]

the more random a game, the less it skill it conveys per match

Fixed. Randomness can even itself out given enough trials. Unfortunately, 4 lives 2/3 matches (if we don't move it down to 3 lives) is not enough t.ime for this to even out.

That bolded section in my post is an opinion. This is what you're truly debating when you say that the randomness of anything (like items) isn't that bad. What you should really be debating is whether the random occurences have enough t.ime to even themselves out and show who is more skilled. I believe there isn't, and thus I can only conclued that randomness is bad for this game.

Anything that takes away from the purity of skill based matches is going to have a negative effect on competition. This is not debateable. What is debatable is whether or not the positive effects outwiegh the negative effects.

Just a little food for thought, and a general topic to get us off this stupid semantics debate.

 

[Winston]

@ Pink Reaper:

What do you think are more relevant points, then, to discuss with the dissenting voices that still care about and post in this thread?

@ Wiseguy:

hmmm...

Traditionally (as in before the b.rawl boomers generation of s.mashboarders) I'd say that only competitive players were actually part of the s.mash community. Among them, I think that scar's definition is the definition.

I supposed that it's different now, but I don't like the idea of a community being forced to change its terminology to accomodate people who are new to it.

@ Jack Kieser:

Just wondering, but who else besides you (who is at least a semi-regular participant in these sort of debates) has expressed support for the idea that more randomness does not necessarily equal less skill?

Also, the presence of disagreement doesn't mean that the issue is subjective and purely opinion-based.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Louise?

It is Louis just like the french kings!

and ya I'm not going any further the discussion of semantics, I've already gone in depth on it and I think the point has been made clear. I would have said it was my last post on the subject in my post, but I'm really tired of saying that.

edit:
and I'm in agreement with Soni.cwave, but I don't really see any discussion getting any further then that... or it may lead into an items debate.

oh please don't go into an items debate, especially where we may be playing with fewer stocks in B rawl.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, I'm not anyone's keeper, so I can't name anyone specifically (especially if we're adding the stipulation that they have to be an active participant in the debate, instead of, you know, just passively holding an opinion)... but for reference, we have a huge thread in Tournament Disc. that's filled with people that echo that sentiment. TONS of people don't agree that 'random /=/ less-skill'. And, disagreement is pretty **** important when it does come to determining whether something is an opinion or not. The fact of the matter is that, outside of mathematics, there aren't a whole lot of things in the universe that are purely fact.

 

[El_Komosutro]

Scar, this is ekom's brother, I helped you set up a tourney once...

Here are my thoughts on your post...

First of all I'm neutral, I just play any and all fighting games casually. I'll play any game competitively if I have access to the scene (I have no car )

Scar, "the innate property of a game allowing better players to win consistently" is called practice and execution, not competitive...

"Those who should win will win" and in brawl, they will... er... duh... If you lost, than you should have lost, if you want to use words like that...

"Brawl is competitive to a degree, but pro-melee debaters will argue that on average, better players win more consistantly in melee than equally skilled competition in brawl" Scar, the game is too new to give insight as to the skill level of most (if any) players or even the depth of brawl itself. As much as people want to swear how good they are because of their capability to perform highly difficult advanced moves in other games, (not just melee - just wong plays mvc2 to near perfection IE: cyclops OCV, c'mon!!! and he surely isn't the best a brawl) you must understand that a different game requires different skills. Unless you know the required skills to consistantly win in brawl and practice them, (which I doubt anybody has put together yet) you aren't good. My friend, skills in competitive games don't even begin to peak until after the first year, when all the country's (maybe world's) best strategies and techniques are actually witnessed, studied, combined, practiced, perfected and applied. Who can honestly believe they can compile these skills beforehand? Here's how it usually works, someone figures out a strategy, glitch or ect, they probably name it and then someone else spends days, nights and/or even months perfecting it. That person becomes the top player. (M2K maybe?) Heck, most advanced moves are discovered while playing scrubs. (By the scrubs on accident from mashing or desparation) Brawl may be kind of an exception because players around the world are purposely trying to break the game instead of just trying to be good. (Because of melee's gameplay)...

"I think that any game can be competitive is invalid" No that's invalid. Disreguarding the amount of competitors and the appeal to just play a certain game competitively is just plain ignorant. It's true that tech skill is important, but if nobody wants to participate in competition, what's the point. (IE: alpha 3) Hold a tournament with no competitors and try to say it's highly competitive, LOL. I guess you're the undisputed champion in your most competitive game...

Here's an example for you...
Super Turbo is more competitive than melee (just the fact you know what ST is proves it's presence) and requires the tech skill of a six year old. Don't believe me, my little brother plays ST and he's already figured out that Sagat is his favorite character because when he mashes kick, he wins matches. Scar, my brother is six. He loves ST. He'll lose to me all day with a smile on ST but won't play more than one match in melee. What do you think he'll play in tourney when he reaches his teens? People want to play ST because it's easy to pick up and still, there are people who are simply undefeatable at the game. (DSP for one) ST tourney's will always have decent turnouts and worst of all, the game is 20 years old! Where will melee be in 20 years, ST will probably still be around which is simply disgusting. So yes Scar, any game can be competitive, so long as people wnat to compete.

If that doesn't convince you, I'll use you as an example...
You are known to play different fighting games. In fact, you got into melee pretty late. What made you become such a hardcore melee player? I'd guess that it's because you like tech heavy games. To be honest, melee is the tech heaviest game made. It's the only game I know where "one frame" has made the difference (consistantly) in tourney play. Scar, why aren't you playing CVS2 tourney's? (you might be cuz I don't really know you too well, but I haven't heard of you in the scene) If you aren't, it's probably because it's not as appealling to you. Scar, you want to play melee instead, don't you? Well that's what makes competition Scar, the competitors. In fact, the only thing that makes the competitive level of a game is the top players. If five year olds were the only ones playing melee, (because most people dismiss it as a kids game) it wouldn't be where it's at now. Wasn't Ken the pinnicle of all 'round pro play from comboes to DI, then M2K showed up with his perfecting of marth dittos, he elevated sheik's edgeguard game and ect... And still, a jiggs player got the match up right against M2K. Melee didn't do that, they took it to that competitive level and went even further. Even if a game is limited by it's mechanics or by what people can do, challengers will always try to surpass the limit, that's the best part about competition (when somebody actually does)...

Scar,
Competitively, Brawl is currently over shadowing melee in a big way. If it's simply for the gimmick of trying to find an advanced move, because it's new, for it's shallow learning curve, because people want to prove their skill, for the love of the game and/or any combination plus other reasons, brawl is being played heavily world wide. Tournaments are a dime a dozen and everyone swears they are good. Pro Brawl vs Anti Brawl battles get pretty deep and seems to be the most heightened play in brawl so far. Skill is rising pretty quickly in the game, (more in a mind games kind of way) and debates like this only fuel the fire for pro brawlers to up their ante when they hit tournament, it's like they have something to prove that nobody knows or cares about. Brawl is dominating, prove it isn't. I haven't heard about any melee tourney's except for a couple that were titled with slurs to brawl and had smash fest turnouts.

For anti-brawlers,
If you want melee to be more competitive, do like the Third Strike guys did and work for it. 3S died out in america because of all the newer games, they brought it back themselves. (good games will die if their fans don't save them) Go out there and hype it up. Get people to play. Don't just say that melee is superior because of the tech skills involved, (it doesn't help and makes you sound like a nerdy cry baby) get people interested. Tell them about the satisfaction that's felt when nailing a tech savvy maneuver during tourney play. Show them how to play and give tips. (I've been to tourney's and smash fests, most new people get treated like crap and sit in the corner and play with each other not learning a darn thing) Prove the learning curve isn't impossible. Hold more tourney's. (I know scar does, but other anti-brawlers just whine) Just don't let the melee scene die out, make it flurish. And of course, talk trash. (just back it up kids) Numbers are facts and they say brawl is more compeitive. More tourney's, bigger payouts, more matches played, more money matches, just more everything...

Finally,
If you want to talk about the competitiveness of a game, it's not gonna be a stable answer until it's dead. When it comes down to it, after a year into the scene, (when the newness of brawl dies down) we'll see if it's good enough to stand the trial of time. Will melee be around to compare it with, will brawl just not make the cut by the end of the year? If I remember correctly, melee never went down in price, or if it did, it didn't go down much. Melee was played well after it's time, I wonder if brawl is a good enough game to last through the years, melee sure was. But for now at least, anti-brawlers just add to the hype...

 

[Wiseguy]

then what else do you consider when rating the competitiveness of a game?

Competitiveness, in my mind, is an odd thing to rate. It goes to the state of mind of the people playing it, their drive to achieve victory and compete against others. Personally, I consider quality competion (if we're talking a tourney) has as much to do with the community support and whatnot.

There's room for debate, obviously. But I think we can debate about skill measurement without defining that as all there is to competition.

YES! We had this entire argument already, I'm even pretty certain its the same people having the same argument

You've entered a separate community, you have to accept that some of our terms may not mean the same things they do in a different community. Gustav, Jack, Wiseguy, Louise(if your still here >_>) you need to stop having this argument. The meanings of words are NOT set in stone, they change depending on who uses them and where they are used. Does anyone remember when B.itch meant female dog and Gay meant happy?

People can use words however they like. Just like how people can post whatever they like in message boards, as long as the topic is part of the thread.

The meaning of words are indeed not set in stone. All the more reason to consider carefully how we bend them to suit our purposes. I see no good reason to limit a word like competitiveness to something as small as skill measurement. Other than to exclude methods of play we do not like.

@ Wiseguy:

hmmm...

Traditionally (as in before the b.rawl boomers generation of s.mashboarders) I'd say that only competitive players were actually part of the s.mash community. Among them, I think that scar's definition is the definition.

I supposed that it's different now, but I don't like the idea of a community being forced to change its terminology to accomodate people who are new to it.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Nor could I, if I wanted to. But since EVERYONE sees themselves as a competitive player (everyone competes to some extend) it strikes me as a poor way of distinguishing which players care about measuring skill. Whether you agree or disagree is up to you.

 

[El_Komosutro]

ok, lets clear this up,
alot of places in my post, brawl and melee are being switched out and other words are just changed like I get ninten added to comp. when I go to edit my post, it shows up correct. sooooo, I believe that a funny guy is playing around with the code on this thread and I'll just have my brother ekom pm the correct answer to the debate directly to scar. thx to the looser who is ruining the literiture I spent so long writing...

 

[LOL_Master]

so....brawl is still being played competitively??? ....wtfalcon....

 

[Rhubarbo]

Look, anygame that has at least one variable that isn't random can be competitive. Flipping a coin can even be competitive! The fact is that SSBM gives players more options, and has more variables than SSBB. More is better because it allows for more unique outcomes. More also gives players different things at their disposal for a larger strategies to develop. I won't get into specifics because I did that in many previous posts of mine, but take this analogy to heart:
SSBB is like football, but without field goals, 8 downs, and always allowing forward passes. Imagine playing like this? The game could still very well be competitive, but it would be more boring to play, and would require less skill, and give players less options.

What I'm certain about however is that competitve SSBM will die. Why? Well, I'm sure that many people got into competitive SSBM by maybe popping up on a forum like this casually because they may have wanted a cheat for the game, or discuss a score e.c.t. If I recall correctly, this is hot Gimpy got into SSBM. Now however, these scrubs will be coming in onto the SSBB boards for their little cheats and discover that SSBB also has a competitive scene. Most people will turn to this and leave nothing but some dedicated pros for the dying SSBM scene.

P.S. I was really looking forward to playing Smash online. I usually don't have the time or options to attend a tournament and online would have really helped me. Not only in SSBB's online a hassle, it has lag, and playing it means that I have to deal with a dumbed down game. Right now I really wish Nintendo made SSBM Online Version!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Rhubarbo... you DO realize that allowing something IS giving someone more options... right? Allowing forward passes kind of gives players another option they didn't have before.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Well, that was a reference to auto sweet spotting...and I'm not that good with foot ball, I figured that it would be easier for the pre-dominantly American board. (Yeah, I'm Canadian, hockey is all I know). Anyways, Brawl removes options and looks like it's not as "deep".

Instead of contunuously bickering though, we should just move on. Even though it looks bleak for Brawl now, I'll still try to my personal best to make the game deeper (by discovering techs, combos, play styles, e.c.t.). Something might immerge in Brawl in the future that adds depth, I just hope to God that it isn't something similar to wavedashing. If Brawl is not deep enough for some of us, then go play Melee. If Brawl suffices (or you can't resist playing as Sonic, Snake, Olimar, or PT) then play that.

This argument is going no where.

 

[LOL_Master]

i looooove autosweet spot i wish that it was in melee

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Knee of justice got mindgamed, funny post brookman, MELEE 4 LIFE.

Haha. It's true. I didn't catch it until I went back and reread the last 20 pages.

 

[Fletch]

Scar, this is ekom's brother, I helped you set up a tourney once...

Here are my thoughts on your post...

First of all I'm neutral, I just play any and all fighting games casually. I'll play any game competitively if I have access to the scene (I have no car )

Scar, "the innate property of a game allowing better players to win consistently" is called practice and execution, not competitive...

"Those who should win will win" and in brawl, they will... er... duh... If you lost, than you should have lost, if you want to use words like that...

"Brawl is competitive to a degree, but pro-melee debaters will argue that on average, better players win more consistantly in melee than equally skilled competition in brawl" Scar, the game is too new to give insight as to the skill level of most (if any) players or even the depth of brawl itself. As much as people want to swear how good they are because of their capability to perform highly difficult advanced moves in other games, (not just melee - just wong plays mvc2 to near perfection IE: cyclops OCV, c'mon!!! and he surely isn't the best a brawl) you must understand that a different game requires different skills. Unless you know the required skills to consistantly win in brawl and practice them, (which I doubt anybody has put together yet) you aren't good. My friend, skills in competitive games don't even begin to peak until after the first year, when all the country's (maybe world's) best strategies and techniques are actually witnessed, studied, combined, practiced, perfected and applied. Who can honestly believe they can compile these skills beforehand? Here's how it usually works, someone figures out a strategy, glitch or ect, they probably name it and then someone else spends days, nights and/or even months perfecting it. That person becomes the top player. (M2K maybe?) Heck, most advanced moves are discovered while playing scrubs. (By the scrubs on accident from mashing or desparation) Brawl may be kind of an exception because players around the world are purposely trying to break the game instead of just trying to be good. (Because of melee's gameplay)...

"I think that any game can be competitive is invalid" No that's invalid. Disreguarding the amount of competitors and the appeal to just play a certain game competitively is just plain ignorant. It's true that tech skill is important, but if nobody wants to participate in competition, what's the point. (IE: alpha 3) Hold a tournament with no competitors and try to say it's highly competitive, LOL. I guess you're the undisputed champion in your most competitive game...

Here's an example for you...
Super Turbo is more competitive than melee (just the fact you know what ST is proves it's presence) and requires the tech skill of a six year old. Don't believe me, my little brother plays ST and he's already figured out that Sagat is his favorite character because when he mashes kick, he wins matches. Scar, my brother is six. He loves ST. He'll lose to me all day with a smile on ST but won't play more than one match in melee. What do you think he'll play in tourney when he reaches his teens? People want to play ST because it's easy to pick up and still, there are people who are simply undefeatable at the game. (DSP for one) ST tourney's will always have decent turnouts and worst of all, the game is 20 years old! Where will melee be in 20 years, ST will probably still be around which is simply disgusting. So yes Scar, any game can be competitive, so long as people wnat to compete.

If that doesn't convince you, I'll use you as an example...
You are known to play different fighting games. In fact, you got into melee pretty late. What made you become such a hardcore melee player? I'd guess that it's because you like tech heavy games. To be honest, melee is the tech heaviest game made. It's the only game I know where "one frame" has made the difference (consistantly) in tourney play. Scar, why aren't you playing CVS2 tourney's? (you might be cuz I don't really know you too well, but I haven't heard of you in the scene) If you aren't, it's probably because it's not as appealling to you. Scar, you want to play melee instead, don't you? Well that's what makes competition Scar, the competitors. In fact, the only thing that makes the competitive level of a game is the top players. If five year olds were the only ones playing melee, (because most people dismiss it as a kids game) it wouldn't be where it's at now. Wasn't Ken the pinnicle of all 'round pro play from comboes to DI, then M2K showed up with his perfecting of marth dittos, he elevated sheik's edgeguard game and ect... And still, a jiggs player got the match up right against M2K. Melee didn't do that, they took it to that competitive level and went even further. Even if a game is limited by it's mechanics or by what people can do, challengers will always try to surpass the limit, that's the best part about competition (when somebody actually does)...

Scar,
Competitively, Brawl is currently over shadowing melee in a big way. If it's simply for the gimmick of trying to find an advanced move, because it's new, for it's shallow learning curve, because people want to prove their skill, for the love of the game and/or any combination plus other reasons, brawl is being played heavily world wide. Tournaments are a dime a dozen and everyone swears they are good. Pro Brawl vs Anti Brawl battles get pretty deep and seems to be the most heightened play in brawl so far. Skill is rising pretty quickly in the game, (more in a mind games kind of way) and debates like this only fuel the fire for pro brawlers to up their ante when they hit tournament, it's like they have something to prove that nobody knows or cares about. Brawl is dominating, prove it isn't. I haven't heard about any melee tourney's except for a couple that were titled with slurs to brawl and had smash fest turnouts.

For anti-brawlers,
If you want melee to be more competitive, do like the Third Strike guys did and work for it. 3S died out in america because of all the newer games, they brought it back themselves. (good games will die if their fans don't save them) Go out there and hype it up. Get people to play. Don't just say that melee is superior because of the tech skills involved, (it doesn't help and makes you sound like a nerdy cry baby) get people interested. Tell them about the satisfaction that's felt when nailing a tech savvy maneuver during tourney play. Show them how to play and give tips. (I've been to tourney's and smash fests, most new people get treated like crap and sit in the corner and play with each other not learning a darn thing) Prove the learning curve isn't impossible. Hold more tourney's. (I know scar does, but other anti-brawlers just whine) Just don't let the melee scene die out, make it flurish. And of course, talk trash. (just back it up kids) Numbers are facts and they say brawl is more compeitive. More tourney's, bigger payouts, more matches played, more money matches, just more everything...

Finally,
If you want to talk about the competitiveness of a game, it's not gonna be a stable answer until it's dead. When it comes down to it, after a year into the scene, (when the newness of brawl dies down) we'll see if it's good enough to stand the trial of time. Will melee be around to compare it with, will brawl just not make the cut by the end of the year? If I remember correctly, melee never went down in price, or if it did, it didn't go down much. Melee was played well after it's time, I wonder if brawl is a good enough game to last through the years, melee sure was. But for now at least, anti-brawlers just add to the hype...

Just wanted to highlight this post again because it was a great one. Even though I am very much in agreement with Scar, it is nice to actually see a good argument from the other perspective. The only major problem I have with this post is in bold, it appears you do not understand the randomness of Brawl, and how frustrating this would be in a tournament scene, along with the minimum skill advantage that you can hold over your opponent. Still a great post, and everyone should read.

 

[Aesir]

Auto sweet spotting is probably one of the worst things, not as bad as tripping but it's still pretty bad.

It virtually takes away almost all skill away from getting back to the stage, coupled with the fact that edge hogging is only viable when you have invincibility frames now unless you're fighting against olimar or something. It really makes it way to easy to survive and makeing it back to the stage.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Auto sweet spotting is probably one of the worst things, not as bad as tripping but it's still pretty bad.

It virtually takes away almost all skill away from getting back to the stage, coupled with the fact that edge hogging is only viable when you have invincibility frames now unless you're fighting against olimar or something. It really makes it way to easy to survive and makeing it back to the stage.

I agree with this, and want to add that footstool jumping really pisses me off

Its TOO easy to do and as such I find myself doing it on accident when I instead wanted to do something else. And its not nearly useful enough to warrant actual use so what we have is a move that actually HINDERS players by being too easy. Had they made it more difficult, it could be used only when it would be useful and it wouldn't interrupt play.

 

[Eki]

yea footstool jumping can get reaaly annoying when you get killed by it. looks like sakurai did it for a reason though. even though i must say being a melee player pisses everyone who is a veteran off.

 

[Eki]

that and the other thing about tripping which can be a good thing and a very bad thing. for example: being a space animal you have to repeatedly dash to your enemy and find a good approach. but you might trip. lol

 

[Pink Reaper]

yea footstool jumping can get reaaly annoying when you get killed by it. looks like sakurai did it for a reason though. even though i must say being a melee player pisses everyone who is a veteran off.

Careful on the double posts there buddy, the edit button is there for a reason.

Also, Im not even talking about getting killed by it(although it is annoying when I get killed by the guy IM trying to edge guard) Im talking about doing it on accident. With edge guarding made mostly useless, I have to rely heavily on Air Guarding and footstool jumping randomly screws me over when I attempt a Dair Meteor and it instead comes out as "Lol, I jumped off your head, your going to fall slowly and easily recover while my attempts to kill you are fruitless :D"

 

[LouisLeGros]

speaking of other things that they made too easy, I really don't like the wall jumps. Not only does it seem like every character has it, but it is so easy too do. I end up doing it on accident and I scratch my head thinking how it happened.

 

[Eki]

yea true about that. oh sorry about the double post. gahh..... Wall jumping isss..... exactly how you say. you really dont have to do much to wall jump. it is kinda funny though. also how wall clinging is. not that hard either.

 

[meatpopsicle]

Is it just me and my friend, or do other people play Melee after playing Brawl for like 30 mins. (if that)? Every time we play Melee now I think, damm this is so much fun.

I mean, in my case I just look at captain falcon. The way he plays now is dishearteningly bad, and his knee just makes me want to cry myself to sleep. That's kind of how I feel about Brawl; in terms of pure gameplay there is so much less to do and as a result it's less rewarding/fun. That's basically my bottom line. Does it add much to the discussion? Maybe not, but I really wanted to see who's in the same boat as I am.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Is it just me and my friend, or do other people play Melee after playing Brawl for like 30 mins. (if that)? Every time we play Melee now I think, damm this is so much fun.

I mean, in my case I just look at captain falcon. The way he plays now is dishearteningly bad, and his knee just makes me want to cry myself to sleep. That's kind of how I feel about Brawl; in terms of pure gameplay there is so much less to do and as a result it's less rewarding/fun. That's basically my bottom line. Does it add much to the discussion? Maybe not, but I really wanted to see who's in the same boat as I am.

If you read the thread you will see a lot of people that share very similar sentiments (even down to the part about Captain Falcon)

 

[Papapaint]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CjuQAMce-_o

/Thread

 

[lonelytraveler8]

I agree with this, and want to add that footstool jumping really pisses me off

Its TOO easy to do and as such I find myself doing it on accident when I instead wanted to do something else. And its not nearly useful enough to warrant actual use so what we have is a move that actually HINDERS players by being too easy. Had they made it more difficult, it could be used only when it would be useful and it wouldn't interrupt play.

Footstool jumping is just stupid. There has been multiple times I'd drop off a stage to finish off my opponent as Meta Knight, and as I'm spinning in the air with my sword out, they foot stool me back onto the stage. I don't fall, but they basically get a free jump off of me while I'm attacking in every direction. oi.

I picked up Captain Falcon in this game the other day hoping to have some fun. I found comboing uairs to be extremely nice. I was having fun until I did dthrow > uair > Knee (where I was rudely interrupted by a smack to the face that ended in my dying). Things like that aren't fair to the better player. Air dodging is stupid, too. At the very least, that should still put you into free fall so that follow up wouldn't be completely possible.

Tripping doesn't tend to bother me. Because follow ups are hard as it is, tripping when attempting this isn't such a big deal. It gives invincibility frames, too, so it's actually quite difficult to punish.

----------------------------------------------------------

Gamplay mechanics problems aside, this game will probably continue to be competitive. As I stated before, it's becoming clear which types of characters will consistently come out on top and the dominant strategies will be a lot more passive than those in Melee. This really can't be argued against, because only a fool would state that the aggressiveness present in Melee is possible in Brawl.

The winners will be playing characters that are good at safely building damage and winning in those all too common clashes (that in Melee would determine who got to start comboing). Of those players, the winners will be those best with mind games. Technical skill in this game is almost moot.

 

[Ridley FTB!!!]

Shouldn't you really not care?
I mean a better player has more knowledge of the game, thus allowing them to certain things a "newbie" can't do. Now if the better player was smart wouldn't they add these to there advantage to win the match? This showing the better player? I mean the only thing i can see above all this is the ability to Combo...Are you telling me that Brawl has removed all forms of making a combo? If not learn a new way of playing,as many people have said this isn't Melee. Play Brawl differently to win.

Thank you for your time.

(If there is) Ridley for the next one!

 

[BlackWhiteOrange]

Wall o' Text \/

The two huge problem with Brawl, maybe the only problems, are simplification and “protection” of bad players by the game's engine.

First off: simplification.

In melee, you had a huge amount of options. You could wavedash a variety of attacks, SHFFL, dashdance and bait attacks, JC grab etc. to approach people. In brawl you can do none of these things. And to you people shouting "techs aren't what made melee advanced," shut the **** up, that is NOT what I am implying, get your heads out of your ***** and stop regurgitating the same **** that all the scrubs and noobs invading smashboards keep spewing up instead of actually engaging in intelligent discussion. These techs added a lot of depth to melee’s already extremely complex and subtle gameplay. Now these techniques being gone on their own would make Brawl more simple, but this is not all that was done to destroy Brawl’s gameplay. In fact, a lot of the other options that are still available to you have been made completely obsolete by the new game engine. The majority of aerials can no longer be short-hop fast-falled because of the vastly decreased hitstun and the lag after landing, not to mention the fact that characters in Brawl move more slowly and can therefore be seen from a mile away, as well as approach mindgames having been thrown out the window. You can’t grab people it can be seen coming from miles away. This has resulted in projectile spamming as an antidote to most characters’ inability to approach.

An example analogous to this one would be the comparison between chess and noughts and crosses. Chess is so complex that if there is a 100% assured way of winning, or of not losing, it has never been found. In all likelihood, there is such a strategy but due to the staggering complexity of the game, no human, nor even the most powerful supercomputer, has been able to find such a strategy. In noughts and crosses, however, due to the extremely limited options available to players, anyone could, after playing the game for only several minutes, realize that it was impossible to lose if you played without making mistakes, which could only be made if you were lazy or inattentive. The reason noughts and crosses is so noncompetitive is that it is so simple, while chess, by far the more complicated of the two games, enjoys a “competitive scene” after being in existence for over 500 years.

Brawl, in such a way, has a repetitive, obvious strategy (camping, turtling and projectile-spamming) because it is so simple (and, of course, poorly designed from a competitive point of view,) while melee was incredibly complicated and no such extremely simple strategy was ever devised.

The second reason, “protection” by the game engine, was purpose-built into Brawl’s design to prevent the more talented players from winning consistently.

The consequences of “Mistakes” in Brawl are incredibly insignificant compared to the consequences in Melee. Depending on the degree of your mistake in melee, you could go from 0% to dead as punishment for making it. Not so in Brawl. There are a huge amount of mechanics in place to prevent sloppy play from being punished. The reduced hitstun prevents noobs from being comboed to oblivion after making mistakes, and they don’t die until they have taken a substantial amount of hits. If they are hit, sometimes the hitstun is so low that they can actually punish their attackers for having managed to hit them. Once they get hit off the edge, they can simply grab the edge automatically from huge distances to recover. Edgeguarding almost doesn’t exist anymore except for edgehogging against tether-recovery-only characters (something most likely overlooked by the game’s designers,) so people don’t have to worry about not being able to recover as much. Tripping has been implemented, and is frequent enough to occur to a player as many times as twice a match, adding in an unremovable factor of randomness that often costs the stock.

Brawl was designed to be non-competitive (read Gimpy’s thread on the subject,) Sakurai even said that he would not implement online leaderboards as untalented people would not enjoy it (and though he conceded talented players would probably love the system he found it somehow “unfair” that the less skilled would not enjoy it as much.) He did his best to ensure that Brawl would be less competitive than melee, especially as it would be online (and he didn’t want noobs to be “unfairly” beaten by people smarter, quicker and more precise than them.)

I eagerly await being flamed to oblivion for expressing valid opinions not in accord with the opinions of the majority of noobs who never played melee (or any game) competitively and yet insist that they are the intelligent ones with the credentials to comment on Brawl as a competitive game. If only we had blocked anyone from joining Smashboards for the month after March 9 we wouldn’t be experiencing so much trolling from arrogant people who beat their friends a couple and think they are some sort of authority on the subject.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

noughts and crosses

Since I agree with everything in your post, I'll just say that I've never heard anyone use that phrase to refer to Tic-Tac-Toe.

 

[Wiseguy]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CjuQAMce-_o

/Thread

How about it, guys? Have you honestly given Tiny Bunny Metal Light Reflected ANGLED Brawl a fair shake yet? I suspect it woud make projectile spamming pretty hard...

 

[Pink Reaper]

The two huge problem with Brawl, maybe the only problems, are simplification and “protection” of bad players by the game's engine.

First off: simplification.

In melee, you had a huge amount of options. You could wavedash a variety of attacks, SHFFL, dashdance and bait attacks, JC grab etc. to approach people. In brawl you can do none of these things. And to you people shouting "techs aren't what made melee advanced," shut the **** up, that is NOT what I am implying, get your heads out of your ***** and stop regurgitating the same **** that all the scrubs and noobs invading smashboards keep spewing up instead of actually engaging in intelligent discussion. These techs added a lot of depth to melee’s already extremely complex and subtle gameplay. Now these techniques being gone on their own would make Brawl more simple, but this is not all that was done to destroy Brawl’s gameplay. In fact, a lot of the other options that are still available to you have been made completely obsolete by the new game engine. The majority of aerials can no longer be short-hop fast-falled because of the vastly decreased hitstun and the lag after landing, not to mention the fact that characters in Brawl move more slowly and can therefore be seen from a mile away, as well as approach mindgames having been thrown out the window. You can’t grab people it can be seen coming from miles away. This has resulted in projectile spamming as an antidote to most characters’ inability to approach.

An example analogous to this one would be the comparison between chess and noughts and crosses. Chess is so complex that if there is a 100% assured way of winning, or of not losing, it has never been found. In all likelihood, there is such a strategy but due to the staggering complexity of the game, no human, nor even the most powerful supercomputer, has been able to find such a strategy. In noughts and crosses, however, due to the extremely limited options available to players, anyone could, after playing the game for only several minutes, realize that it was impossible to lose if you played without making mistakes, which could only be made if you were lazy or inattentive. The reason noughts and crosses is so noncompetitive is that it is so simple, while chess, by far the more complicated of the two games, enjoys a “competitive scene” after being in existence for over 500 years.

Brawl, in such a way, has a repetitive, obvious strategy (camping, turtling and projectile-spamming) because it is so simple (and, of course, poorly designed from a competitive point of view,) while melee was incredibly complicated and no such extremely simple strategy was ever devised.

The second reason, “protection” by the game engine, was purpose-built into Brawl’s design to prevent the more talented players from winning consistently.

The consequences of “Mistakes” in Brawl are incredibly insignificant compared to the consequences in Melee. Depending on the degree of your mistake in melee, you could go from 0% to dead as punishment for making it. Not so in Brawl. There are a huge amount of mechanics in place to prevent sloppy play from being punished. The reduced hitstun prevents noobs from being comboed to oblivion after making mistakes, and they don’t die until they have taken a substantial amount of hits. If they are hit, sometimes the hitstun is so low that they can actually punish their attackers for having managed to hit them. Once they get hit off the edge, they can simply grab the edge automatically from huge distances to recover. Edgeguarding almost doesn’t exist anymore except for edgehogging against tether-recovery-only characters (something most likely overlooked by the game’s designers,) so people don’t have to worry about not being able to recover as much. Tripping has been implemented, and is frequent enough to occur to a player as many times as twice a match, adding in an unremovable factor of randomness that often costs the stock.

Brawl was designed to be non-competitive (read Gimpy’s thread on the subject,) Sakurai even said that he would not implement online leaderboards as untalented people would not enjoy it (and though he conceded talented players would probably love the system he found it somehow “unfair” that the less skilled would not enjoy it as much.) He did his best to ensure that Brawl would be less competitive than melee, especially as it would be online (and he didn’t want noobs to be “unfairly” beaten by people smarter, quicker and more precise than them.)

I eagerly await being flamed to oblivion for expressing valid opinions not in accord with the opinions of the majority of noobs who never played melee (or any game) competitively and yet insist that they are the intelligent ones with the credentials to comment on Brawl as a competitive game. If only we had blocked anyone from joining Smashboards for the month after March 9 we wouldn’t be experiencing so much trolling from arrogant people who beat their friends a couple and think they are some sort of authority on the subject.

I hate you and I hope you die. Your post plagiarized a post by LouisLeGros(or however he spells his name) and the follow up reply that I posted. Go to hell.

 

[BlackWhiteOrange]

I hate you and I hope you die. Your post plagiarized a post by LouisLeGros(or however he spells his name) and the follow up reply that I posted. Go to hell.

I'm sorry if my post was similar, but I have no idea which post you're talking about as I haven't sifted through the 130 pages of repetitious argument that this thread consists of. I certainly didn't plagiarize anybody.

 

[MajinSweet]

Since it seems no matter what people say, people are sure they have Brawl all figured out--maybe you might listen to Azen?

I like how everyone in the Top 10 except me and Chillin hate Brawl. They all got so depressed when they went to brawl tournies hoping to win money easily then getting ***** instead. The only reason they want to go back to Melee is so they can win cash again. I wonder why they got ***** in Brawl, maybe its cause Brawl is way more competitive than Melee was. They were too cocky to realize that their Top positions might be in danger, and now they make excuses saying Brawl is too easy and anyone can win. No Jones losers. Maybe they should actually start practicing instead of wishing their Melee skill carried over to Brawl. Brawl is already super competitive, it won't be easy for anyone to get to the Top, so many people are trying to get good now; you can't be cocky just cause you were pro in Melee. Its a new game, not Melee 2.0. Eventually most of the anti-brawlers will die off like with the 64 crowd. lol, just look at how depressed Isai was when he couldn't win everything anymore in Melee like in 64, and he just eventually gave up and stopped trying. Yall losers can stay in the past with Melee and 64, but right now is the time of Brawl and a new generation of smashers will take your place.

-Azen

 

[Wiseguy]

Since it seems no matter what people say, people are sure they have Brawl all figured out--maybe you might listen to Azen?

I like how everyone in the Top 10 except me and Chillin hate Brawl. They all got so depressed when they went to brawl tournies hoping to win money easily then getting ***** instead. The only reason they want to go back to Melee is so they can win cash again. I wonder why they got ***** in Brawl, maybe its cause Brawl is way more competitive than Melee was. They were too cocky to realize that their Top positions might be in danger, and now they make excuses saying Brawl is too easy and anyone can win. No Jones losers. Maybe they should actually start practicing instead of wishing their Melee skill carried over to Brawl. Brawl is already super competitive, it won't be easy for anyone to get to the Top, so many people are trying to get good now; you can't be cocky just cause you were pro in Melee. Its a new game, not Melee 2.0. Eventually most of the anti-brawlers will die off like with the 64 crowd. lol, just look at how depressed Isai was when he couldn't win everything anymore in Melee like in 64, and he just eventually gave up and stopped trying. Yall losers can stay in the past with Melee and 64, but right now is the time of Brawl and a new generation of smashers will take your place.

-Azen

Fascinating. Most Fascinating.

Anyway, I particularily agree with the last part about a "new generation of Smashers." People who expect Brawl to die off are kidding themselves.