SBR Recommended Rule List Discussion: Brawl

[MysticKenji]

Pictochat

There are parts of pictochat that can cause stalling if the person doesn't want to get out of some of the objects you can not go through. So this means if someone gets into one of them they can just sit there it goes away and the other person can do nothing about.

Who's stalling though, the guy in the object or the guy outside it?
This kind of stalling doesn't really benefit anyone because neither of you can hit the other.

Though most of the different drawings are short they may still cause effects that may not have happened on another level.

Different from other levels =/= broken.

Distant Planet


This level has one major problem and some minor ones that should make it a baned level. First I will start with the major problem. With the level design its ok but when the big yellow monster isn't there it gives a huge advantage to characters with better recovery and jumps an advantage.

So do other legal stages.

Finally the items all though there not to bad they can cause some problems and cause a bit to much damage to make it a counter pick level./quote]
The "1" pellets 6%, while "5" pellets do 10%.
Both have barely any knockback.

 

[Al3x_]

It turned out good in the end.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Cool! Thanks very much again for your work and help SBR! :D I pretty much totally 100% agree with these rules! May be theres 1 or 2 things that i dont quite agree on or havent read yet, but if there is I'd probably accept it.

Wow, color-blind rule? Thats very considerate :D (no sarcasm)

So, im guessing if Bowser can suicide 'klaw' to win a match, what about other suicide moves, such as Ganondorf's Side B?

And i'm a little confused/unsure about this part: So can you Infinite Chain Grab, yes or no? Or can you, just that once they're at 300% you have to stop? And is there a rule such as: No Chaingrabbing off Sidescrolling Maps? (You pretty much banned all these, but Halberd and Delfino still have 'places' where you can walk-off).

Thx again for the list The port stuff was neat too!

 

[Overswarm]

300%, you gotta stop. Other than that? No rules pertaining to infinites.

 

[PK-ow!]

Before the meat of this post, I want to ask: I don't quite understand the color-blind rule. As in, at all. I read it and don't know what it means. All I can tell is that the purpose of it is to allow color blind persons to know the teams in a 2v2.

Personally, I'm still baffled by the general perception of Spear Pillar. There is never a time where "controls are flipped". There are two flip scenarios: the camera rotates 180 degrees (I usually jump off the chair and turn my head upside down; this would be golden to see people doing in a tournament), and the camera mirrors horizontally. Controls remain the same. In the mirror situation, you have to train your mind to continue fighting your opponent relative to where he/she was as you were approaching. It would be ridiculously unfair if the controls just flipped without any warning, but you see the picture flip. That is completely controllable and not random.

I could see Spear Pillar being banned for other reasons (such as the loop aspect), but the picture rotating/flipping reason seems so poorly supported. People just do not seem to 'like' it.

I agree 100% with this.

Yes, I reacted strongly to these remarks. Is the SBR really giving the camera movements and a little CoI effect as the reasons for a ban?

I brought it up before - if Lylat's tilting is part of play, then so are Spear Pillar's illusions. I want to see someone say that it's not appropriate to count as skill the ability to correct for the illusion; otherwise, I'd like another explanation for banned status.

I'm not saying it should be CP, necessarily. My interests are in the truth. . . as well as advocation for whatever could give me an advantage in tourney play (heheheh).

 

[jyuuberu]

Yes, I reacted strongly to these remarks. Is the SBR really giving the camera movements and a little CoI effect as the reasons for a ban?

I brought it up before - if Lylat's tilting is part of play, then so are Spear Pillar's illusions. I want to see someone say that it's not appropriate to count as skill the ability to correct for the illusion; otherwise, I'd like another explanation for banned status.

I'm not saying it should be CP, necessarily. My interests are in the truth. . . as well as advocation for whatever could give me an advantage in tourney play (heheheh).

Your skill accounts for every single laser, every single distortion and every single crescent projectile that comes your way?

I love spear pillar don't get me wrong. But there are sometimes where the stage will own you and you can't do anything about it. That is not an indication of skill. That is an indication of luck and if I wanted to play a game where luck determines who wins I'd carry a deck of cards around instead of a gamecube controller.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I think I've read this somewhere; the reason why Spear Pillar is banned, along with some others (i understand your opinions) is not because the illusions are dangerous or anything, but because "They are not looking for skills in those areas". I think SamuraiPanda said this somewhere. And I agree, I wouldn't want to have to waste my time practicing getting used to the illusions when I could have more fun practicing with more straight forward skills.

And thanks Overswarm

 

[cutter]

@ Overswarm: Has there been any discussion in the SBR about banning Metaknight? Personally, I think doing something that extreme should only be done as a last resort. I think it's quite silly for people wanting to put MK on the executioner's axe so quickly into the game.

After reading a lot of threads about people wanting MK banned, it would really be nice to hear your guys' thoughts on this.

 

[Overswarm]

@ Overswarm: Has there been any discussion in the SBR about banning Metaknight? Personally, I think doing something that extreme should only be done as a last resort. I think it's quite silly for people wanting to put MK on the executioner's axe so quickly into the game.

After reading a lot of threads about people wanting MK banned, it would really be nice to hear your guys' thoughts on this.

If we came to a consensus on anything like that, you guys would hear about it. MK won't be banned until there is evidence to show he should be banned, and it is quite possible this will never happen.

 

[cutter]

Alright, thank you very much OS.

It's really aggravating that people are crying for MK to be banned just 5 months into the game and without full, concrete evidence supporting it. (thumbswayup, I'm looking at you)

 

[petrie911]

I think I've read this somewhere; the reason why Spear Pillar is banned, along with some others (i understand your opinions) is not because the illusions are dangerous or anything, but because "They are not looking for skills in those areas". I think SamuraiPanda said this somewhere. And I agree, I wouldn't want to have to waste my time practicing getting used to the illusions when I could have more fun practicing with more straight forward skills.

That's foolish. You must practice avoiding the lava on Norfair. You must practice dealing with the water on Pirate Ship and Delfino. You must practice recovering on Final Destination's edges. I could go on. The point is, just because you have to learn to deal with a stage doesn't mean it should be banned. And if it's really that big of a deal, you could always wait out the effect like people did with Stadium in Melee.

Now, this doesn't mean SP should be allowed. Significant cave of life effects and a loop are present, which may be enough to warrant a ban on their own. But with a ton of warning and easy avoidance, the hazards of Spear Pillar are hardly a reason to ban it.

 

[Vyse]

Metaknight is beatable. Look at XII.E.S.T.I.C.L.E.
A slew of Metaknights (M2K among them) were beaten by Azen's Lucario, Chu's Kirby, and NinjaLink's Diddy.

I really don't ever see Metaknight being banned.

 

[Mr.E]

Meta Knight isn't unbeatable, he's just neutral or better against every character in the game on every stage in the game.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

only thing i might disagree with is how Bowser Klaw kill equals a win for Bowser

 

[Overswarm]

only thing i might disagree with is how Bowser Klaw kill equals a win for Bowser

addressed this earlier; it's to prevent port selection from determining a winner. It had to go one way or the other, and, well, Bowser initiated the move. The only time it can kill you when you are at lower % than Bowser is when you DI off the stage, so it is a moot point.


Some people thought the ability to jump after the over-b off the edge would eliminate this rule... and it would have, had it been true. Unfortunately, it is very limited. It is very frame specific and only works on certain stages / heights; it is overly complicated to the point that the port selection would once again determine wehther Bowser wins or ties, and since the tie should always be a win for Bowser anyway due ot the % difference this just makes things easier.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

At least someone finally responded to my Spear Pillar comment from ages ago (thanks, Sliq). Every time Spear Pillar is brought up, I get the feeling that SBR just sweeps it under the rug. There is nothing unfair or unbalanced about this stage. Even the loop is broken at points in the cycle. Again, if the loop is proven to be abusable, then I understand why the stage is banned... but all I hear is "flipped controls are unfair". There are no flipped controls. Only the camera shifts around, but the controls remain unaffected.

 

[Overswarm]

At least someone finally responded to my Spear Pillar comment from ages ago (thanks, Sliq). Every time Spear Pillar is brought up, I get the feeling that SBR just sweeps it under the rug. There is nothing unfair or unbalanced about this stage. Even the loop is broken at points in the cycle. Again, if the loop is proven to be abusable, then I understand why the stage is banned... but all I hear is "flipped controls are unfair". There are no flipped controls. Only the camera shifts around, but the controls remain unaffected.

When the camera shifts around, your controls are flipped, Buzz.

 

[Tony_]

addressed this earlier; it's to prevent port selection from determining a winner. It had to go one way or the other, and, well, Bowser initiated the move. The only time it can kill you when you are at lower % than Bowser is when you DI off the stage, so it is a moot point.


Some people thought the ability to jump after the over-b off the edge would eliminate this rule... and it would have, had it been true. Unfortunately, it is very limited. It is very frame specific and only works on certain stages / heights; it is overly complicated to the point that the port selection would once again determine wehther Bowser wins or ties, and since the tie should always be a win for Bowser anyway due ot the % difference this just makes things easier.

Doesn't really matter. Your basically saying to Bowser mains to chose port one. Bowser becomes really good because of a rule. Its like saying if D3's neutral B attack ends in a sudden death, he wins. The rule should be if Bowser lives. End of story.

Also, Skyworld is basically saying play R.O.B or Pit, as those are the only two who will honestly recover on the stage.

Onett should be banned because its wayyy to easy to infinite with Fox, Wolf, D3, and possibly IC's. Anyone who sees this isn't a blind fool. Anyone who doesn't hasn't played on the stage much. I can usually infinite with little effort. D3 basically becomes broken on this stage.

Yoshi's Islans (Melee) should be banned. D3.

Green Hill Zone should be banned. Again, D3 and the check point are to blame. D3 more.

Norfair should be banned because its huge. Really. All you have to do is jump and ledge guard for no end. Aerial characters get an easy win here, and combined with the lava from the stage, allow for low% KO's too easily.

Pirate Ship should be banned because at certain points players are fighting against the stage rather than their opponent. The Catapult also allows for low KOs plus it can act like a wall at times. D3 anyone?

Stadium one should be pure CP. Why? Windmill is a wall. If it wasn't, it could be a Neutral easily.

Stadium 2 should be banned sorry. The changes are too Dynamic for it to be considered a CP. Sure its a fun stage, but in tournament play, it becomes a battle of the stage.

Port Town Aero Dive should be a full ban. Sure you can see the cars coming, but they kill you at rediculously low percents too easily for no reason and no punishment. Plus, parts of the stage are a walk off.

Also, 7 mins please. 8 Mins = too long IMO.

 

[SmashBro99]

This is a joke right?

I mean no offense, but what were you guys thinking on the stages lol.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

When the camera shifts around, your controls are flipped, Buzz.

No, they are not... not in the sense that everyone suggests.

Imagine I am dashing left toward my opponent. Suddenly, the camera flips horizontally. My opponent is now on my right, but pressing left on my controller still moves me in the correct direction toward my opponent. Everything stays relative. Both players see the flip, and both players have to change their thinking temporarily.

If the controls actually *flipped* during my dash to the left, then my character would screech to a halt and start dashing away from my opponent, but we all know that is not what happens. The camera flips, not the controls. It is deceitfully incorrect to repeatedly claim that the controls are what flip.

I am proof that this can be dealt with. There is absolutely nothing unfair about this stage mechanic. No, I'm not a pro player, but when I play on Spear Pillar against those who are unpracticed against the camera flip, I keep my groove and proceed to combo them to death with little hindrance. If the controls actually flipped, my combo would be interrupted/ruined, but it's not the controls that flip; it's the camera. It is a temporary optical illusion that has no bearing on either player's choice of commands. If I see the picture flip and react inappropriately by pressing the opposite direction on my control stick, then I deserve to suffer for not practicing this particular stage hazard.

It's really not hard to deal with. When off the left side of the stage (for example), just keep in mind, "I need to press RIGHT to recover." Then, no matter what happens to the camera, pressing RIGHT will always help you recover correctly.

The controls only "flip" in the sense that they are opposite to what you see, but the controls actually behave perfectly.

 

[habaker91]

I independantly thought of the bowerscide rule, good job thinking of it as well.

 

[Overswarm]

Doesn't really matter. Your basically saying to Bowser mains to chose port one. Bowser becomes really good because of a rule. Its like saying if D3's neutral B attack ends in a sudden death, he wins. The rule should be if Bowser lives. End of story.

If Dedede won using his neutral B suicide on port 1, but lost on port 4, we would probably be giving him a win 100% of the time. The idea is to remove port advantage and put the power back in the hands of the player; there is no reason to make the port choice determine whether or not Bowser wins in a match.

Also, Skyworld is basically saying play R.O.B or Pit, as those are the only two who will honestly recover on the stage.

This is not true; however, this stage does require a good recovery and/or ability to tech/DI. This makes it a strong counterpick, and we are aware of this. If you'll notice, it is in the counterpick/banned category. Some believed that most players couldn't play here, others believed that a variety of characters could play here. If the counterpick shows to be too strong in the future, it will be moved to banned; for now, there is nothing but people SAYING it is too strong. Our own testing of the stage has shown otherwise, as has tournament matches on this stage.

Onett should be banned because its wayyy to easy to infinite with Fox, Wolf, D3, and possibly IC's. Anyone who sees this isn't a blind fool. Anyone who doesn't hasn't played on the stage much. I can usually infinite with little effort. D3 basically becomes broken on this stage.

Infinites are broken by cars, and there are several locations you can go to to prevent D3 from having the ability to CG you. This is all on top of the standard theory of "don't get grabbed" and "pick someone that can't be CG'd". Again, if it showed that this stage was simply too powerful the stage would be banned... but currently there is dispute so it is in counterpick/banned.

Yoshi's Islans (Melee) should be banned. D3.

Stay on the left side, don't get grabbed, pick someone that can't get CG'd, use one of your characters natural traits (gyro, banana, grenade, etc., etc.) to prevent yourself from being chain grabbed....

Saying "D3 breaks this stage" is generally a clear cut sign that someone hasn't actually played on the stage. D3 alone is rarely going to be a reason for a stage to be banned.

Green Hill Zone should be banned. Again, D3 and the check point are to blame. D3 more.

See above. What is wrong with the checkpoint, anyway?

Norfair should be banned because its huge. Really. All you have to do is jump and ledge guard for no end. Aerial characters get an easy win here, and combined with the lava from the stage, allow for low% KO's too easily.

This... isn't true.

Pirate Ship should be banned because at certain points players are fighting against the stage rather than their opponent. The Catapult also allows for low KOs plus it can act like a wall at times. D3 anyone?

You're just afraid of D3 aren't you? Besides, the Catapult can't KO you if you DI. At all.

Stadium one should be pure CP. Why? Windmill is a wall. If it wasn't, it could be a Neutral easily.

Why does it matter if it is a wall? The rock formation has a wall, why not mention that?

Stadium 2 should be banned sorry. The changes are too Dynamic for it to be considered a CP. Sure its a fun stage, but in tournament play, it becomes a battle of the stage.

My little brother consistently picks this stage; he has learned the effects of it and has used it to his advantage. They aren't very severe; this isn't something as radical as left moving you right on the screen.

Port Town Aero Dive should be a full ban. Sure you can see the cars coming, but they kill you at rediculously low percents too easily for no reason and no punishment. Plus, parts of the stage are a walk off.

Walk offs aren't inherently bad. The strength of the hazard was of concern, but after playing a full tournament on it and having very, very few attacks by cars actually hitting and (more importantly) this being due to the player's acknowledgement of them being dangerous... it remains unbanned until it shows it needs to be.

Also, 7 mins please. 8 Mins = too long IMO.

Actually, 7 minutes is too short. We originally had 7-8 minutes as the timer and were going to have TOs just choose what they wanted. This changed after a series of tournaments iwth matches easily going to the timer due to the 7 minute marker; tournaments with 8 minutes didn't have this problem in the slightest.

 

[infomon]

Onett should be banned because its wayyy to easy to infinite with Fox, Wolf, D3, and possibly IC's.

IC's can infinite chaingrab on any level, with enough skill, so long as hazards and possibly hills aren't in the way. Onett is one of the worst choices for IC chaingrabs because of the cars, as Overswarm pointed out. If anything, you should be saying that ICs should be banned; but they shouldn't.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

No, they are not... not in the sense that everyone suggests.

Imagine I am dashing left toward my opponent. Suddenly, the camera flips horizontally. My opponent is now on my right, but pressing left on my controller still moves me in the correct direction toward my opponent. Everything stays relative. Both players see the flip, and both players have to change their thinking temporarily.

If the controls actually *flipped* during my dash to the left, then my character would screech to a halt and start dashing away from my opponent, but we all know that is not what happens. The camera flips, not the controls. It is deceitfully incorrect to repeatedly claim that the controls are what flip.

I am proof that this can be dealt with. There is absolutely nothing unfair about this stage mechanic. No, I'm not a pro player, but when I play on Spear Pillar against those who are unpracticed against the camera flip, I keep my groove and proceed to combo them to death with little hindrance. If the controls actually flipped, my combo would be interrupted/ruined, but it's not the controls that flip; it's the camera. It is a temporary optical illusion that has no bearing on either player's choice of commands. If I see the picture flip and react inappropriately by pressing the opposite direction on my control stick, then I deserve to suffer for not practicing this particular stage hazard.

It's really not hard to deal with. When off the left side of the stage (for example), just keep in mind, "I need to press RIGHT to recover." Then, no matter what happens to the camera, pressing RIGHT will always help you recover correctly.

The controls only "flip" in the sense that they are opposite to what you see, but the controls actually behave perfectly.

Okay....the controls flip, no doubt about it. If you are holding left, you go right, and if you are holding right, you go left. If you hold right, and it flips, you will stop and go to the left. You need to use the opposite direction to what you want to do. This is controls flipping. It's not like it flips up-side down and up becomes down and down becomes up, no. It flips over the X-axis and left becomes right and right becomes left.

 

[Tony_]

If Dedede won using his neutral B suicide on port 1, but lost on port 4, we would probably be giving him a win 100% of the time. The idea is to remove port advantage and put the power back in the hands of the player; there is no reason to make the port choice determine whether or not Bowser wins in a match.

But that rule only encourages it more so. =\

This is not true; however, this stage does require a good recovery and/or ability to tech/DI. This makes it a strong counterpick, and we are aware of this. If you'll notice, it is in the counterpick/banned category. Some believed that most players couldn't play here, others believed that a variety of characters could play here. If the counterpick shows to be too strong in the future, it will be moved to banned; for now, there is nothing but people SAYING it is too strong. Our own testing of the stage has shown otherwise, as has tournament matches on this stage.

Skyworld is probably the most broken non hazard stage in the game. Characters who have displaced hitboxes can break this stage easily, especially characters with great throws. All you have to do is break the stage below you and Ta-da. Just stage spike for an instant kill. Nearly all of the cast is unplayable on this stage. Also, who in their right mind is going to keep the stage on top? No one. The person who picked it is going to stage spike continuously or keep trying untill they get the stage spike. Teching is harder to do in Brawl than it was in Melee, so that argument is kinda moot.

Infinites are broken by cars, and there are several locations you can go to to prevent D3 from having the ability to CG you. This is all on top of the standard theory of "don't get grabbed" and "pick someone that can't be CG'd". Again, if it showed that this stage was simply too powerful the stage would be banned... but currently there is dispute so it is in counterpick/banned.

Expect that by the time a car comes your going to be dead. I can simply infinite you against a wall until you get hit by car, killing you with one hit possibly. Saying "Don't get grabbed", is the worst kind of logic I have seen come from smash. You are going to get grabbed every match. Its that simple. No game of Brawl has gone without one person getting grabbed at least once.

Stay on the left side, don't get grabbed, pick someone that can't get CG'd, use one of your characters natural traits (gyro, banana, grenade, etc., etc.) to prevent yourself from being chain grabbed....

Saying "D3 breaks this stage" is generally a clear cut sign that someone hasn't actually played on the stage. D3 alone is rarely going to be a reason for a stage to be banned.

Funny, during the first months the game came out, half of the playable stages were banned because of D3. Guess you were wrong huh? Oh yeah, about staying on the left...no. That argument fails. Any person isn't going to let a player remain on one side of the stage. No one will. Grab analagy fails again. You ARE going to get grabbed.

See above. What is wrong with the checkpoint, anyway?

Checkpoint rewards players for simply hitting it. That takes no skill period to do, and you can stall behind it all day. Again D3 rules on this stage.

This... isn't true.

Find me reasons then, because it is literally easy to get easy KOs on this stage. It allows bad players to win easily because of it being so vertical and giving you so many chances to recover.

You're just afraid of D3 aren't you? Besides, the Catapult can't KO you if you DI. At all.

Not really no. I'm not afraid of D3, just that he is the perfect example on most stages.

Also, yes, the Catapult DOES KO even IF you DI. Percents matter if your getting launched off of it.

Why does it matter if it is a wall? The rock formation has a wall, why not mention that?

The windmill turns the stage into a PLayer VS Stage conflict. The rock formation is easily dealt with. The Windmill, not so much.

My little brother consistently picks this stage; he has learned the effects of it and has used it to his advantage. They aren't very severe; this isn't something as radical as left moving you right on the screen.

Good for him. Does this apply to every Smasher? No. Its too dynamic of a stage for those who don't play it. Its like saying Warioware should be legal because the random rewards aren't even a hazard.

Walk offs aren't inherently bad. The strength of the hazard was of concern, but after playing a full tournament on it and having very, very few attacks by cars actually hitting and (more importantly) this being due to the player's acknowledgement of them being dangerous... it remains unbanned until it shows it needs to be.

It needs to be banned regardless. The cars are too much of a hazard and it turns into a Player VS Stage conflict with the cars. Not to mention the building gets you an easy KO more often than not.

Actually, 7 minutes is too short. We originally had 7-8 minutes as the timer and were going to have TOs just choose what they wanted. This changed after a series of tournaments iwth matches easily going to the timer due to the 7 minute marker; tournaments with 8 minutes didn't have this problem in the slightest.

I see now. =]

 

[Overswarm]

But that rule only encourages it more so. =\

If we have the options between letting port decides the victor, Bowser always winning, or Bowser always losing... we choose Bowser always winning. He initiated the move and the opponent has to either make a mistake or be at much higher percentage to go off the stage; if the opponent is at higher % and it goes to sudden death anyway. This rule just removes the port confusion.

Skyworld is probably the most broken non hazard stage in the game. Characters who have displaced hitboxes can break this stage easily, especially characters with great throws. All you have to do is break the stage below you and Ta-da. Just stage spike for an instant kill. Nearly all of the cast is unplayable on this stage. Also, who in their right mind is going to keep the stage on top? No one. The person who picked it is going to stage spike continuously or keep trying untill they get the stage spike. Teching is harder to do in Brawl than it was in Melee, so that argument is kinda moot.

Difficulty in doing something is rarely a factor unless it is extremely hard to do. Teching is incredibly simple. Regardless, the majority of the cast is still playable here.

Expect that by the time a car comes your going to be dead. I can simply infinite you against a wall until you get hit by car, killing you with one hit possibly. Saying "Don't get grabbed", is the worst kind of logic I have seen come from smash. You are going to get grabbed every match. Its that simple. No game of Brawl has gone without one person getting grabbed at least once.

Why is the infinite a bad thing, anyway? The idea of a counterpick is to give you an advantage. If you truly believe this stage is broken beyond belief, pick up D3 and use him for counterpicks on this stage. Show that it is completely broken in tournament and it will soon be banned.

Unfortunately for aspiring D3 players... this stage isn't that great for D3. It is ridiculously hard to get a grab on this stage against a good opponent, and when you do a car comes very quickly. You aren't "automatically dead" off of one grab here at all. You're basing your logic off of fear and theory that has yet to be proven at all.

Funny, during the first months the game came out, half of the playable stages were banned because of D3. Guess you were wrong huh? Oh yeah, about staying on the left...no. That argument fails. Any person isn't going to let a player remain on one side of the stage. No one will. Grab analagy fails again. You ARE going to get grabbed.

Funny, during the first months the game came out, a lot of panicky TOs banned stages because people that weren't very good complained about D3. Guess I'm right.

And maybe YOU will get grabbed, but I don't plan on it. Hell, if you're on the other side of the blocks he can't chain throw you at all simply because if the blocks are broken he can't CG across them. This stage really isn't that great for D3 if the opponent knows what they are doing. You really can't just expect fear of a chain grab to dominate all CPs.

Checkpoint rewards players for simply hitting it. That takes no skill period to do, and you can stall behind it all day. Again D3 rules on this stage.

The amount of skill something takes doesn't matter. D3 is not a valid reason to ban a stage all on his lonesome. Checkpoints aren't broken either.

Find me reasons then, because it is literally easy to get easy KOs on this stage. It allows bad players to win easily because of it being so vertical and giving you so many chances to recover.

Reasons for what? And how does this let "bad players" win? Good players have the same options, don't they?

Not really no. I'm not afraid of D3, just that he is the perfect example on most stages.

I'm thinkin' yer yella.

Also, yes, the Catapult DOES KO even IF you DI. Percents matter if your getting launched off of it.

Are you suuuuuuuuure? ;p

The windmill turns the stage into a PLayer VS Stage conflict. The rock formation is easily dealt with. The Windmill, not so much.

I don't have an issue with it. Most people have an issue with it because the moment it comes up, they move over there thinking "this will protect me" then the opponent is an idiot and runs straight to them, then one of them gets totally destroyed by being bounced off the windmill. This is just as ridiculous as saying the rock formation is dumb because someone camped in the middle and then got an infinite off on you.

Good for him. Does this apply to every Smasher? No. Its too dynamic of a stage for those who don't play it. Its like saying Warioware should be legal because the random rewards aren't even a hazard.

No, it is not. Warioware gives you random rewards that are inconsistent. PS2 has consistent layouts that are easily observable and worked around.

It needs to be banned regardless. The cars are too much of a hazard and it turns into a Player VS Stage conflict with the cars. Not to mention the building gets you an easy KO more often than not.

You're just making stuff up. You take a hazard or stage effect, say the worst possible thing thta could happen, and then say it happens 100% of the time. It doesn't. >_>

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Okay....the controls flip, no doubt about it. If you are holding left, you go right, and if you are holding right, you go left. If you hold right, and it flips, you will stop and go to the left. You need to use the opposite direction to what you want to do. This is controls flipping. It's not like it flips up-side down and up becomes down and down becomes up, no. It flips over the X-axis and left becomes right and right becomes left.

No, the picture flips. So, if you mess up, it's still your own fault. Like I said, it's not like your controls start freakin' out on you. Relativity holds its place.

 

[MysticKenji]

Onett should be banned because its wayyy to easy to infinite with Fox, Wolf, D3, and possibly IC's.

Wolf can't infinite anyone.

Pirate Ship should be banned because at certain points players are fighting against the stage rather than their opponent. The Catapult also allows for low KOs plus it can act like a wall at times. D3 anyone?

The catapult can't kill Jiggs until past 150%.

Stadium 2 should be banned sorry. The changes are too Dynamic for it to be considered a CP. Sure its a fun stage, but in tournament play, it becomes a battle of the stage.

Stadium 2's transformations become less of an issue once you play on it a few times.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Walk offs aren't inherently bad. The strength of the hazard was of concern, but after playing a full tournament on it and having very, very few attacks by cars actually hitting and (more importantly) this being due to the player's acknowledgement of them being dangerous... it remains unbanned until it shows it needs to be.

well sure it depends on the player's acknowledgement, but what if the players is a rookie and isn't aware of those hazards during tourney play? I'd say even if this isn't a major hazard, it still has it's dangers.

Actually, 7 minutes is too short. We originally had 7-8 minutes as the timer and were going to have TOs just choose what they wanted. This changed after a series of tournaments iwth matches easily going to the timer due to the 7 minute marker; tournaments with 8 minutes didn't have this problem in the slightest.

I always though it to be roughly 7 minutes, I don't see why 8 minutes would make it a problem, sure it may lenghten the battle a bit, but still no problem as I see it.

 

[Mega_$m@sh]

well sure it depends on the player's acknowledgement, but what if the players is a rookie and isn't aware of those hazards during tourney play? I'd say even if this isn't a major hazard, it still has it's dangers.



I always though it to be roughly 7 minutes, I don't see why 8 minutes would make it a problem, sure it may lenghten the battle a bit, but still no problem as I see it.

then they shouldn't be at a tournament yet IMO.

 

[Tony_]

If we have the options between letting port decides the victor, Bowser always winning, or Bowser always losing... we choose Bowser always winning. He initiated the move and the opponent has to either make a mistake or be at much higher percentage to go off the stage; if the opponent is at higher % and it goes to sudden death anyway. This rule just removes the port confusion.

Kay.

Difficulty in doing something is rarely a factor unless it is extremely hard to do. Teching is incredibly simple. Regardless, the majority of the cast is still playable here.

Except that you won't always get the tech off and no, its not easy to do it in Brawl. If you can find me proof that teching actually makes this stage playable, let me know.

Why is the infinite a bad thing, anyway? The idea of a counterpick is to give you an advantage. If you truly believe this stage is broken beyond belief, pick up D3 and use him for counterpicks on this stage. Show that it is completely broken in tournament and it will soon be banned.


Unfortunately for aspiring D3 players... this stage isn't that great for D3. It is ridiculously hard to get a grab on this stage against a good opponent, and when you do a car comes very quickly. You aren't "automatically dead" off of one grab here at all. You're basing your logic off of fear and theory that has yet to be proven at all.

Infinites are bad because players only focus on getting them off. Put this stage in the hands of a good player and the infinite is a cake walk to pull off against any character. It also takes no skill to do certain infinites, like D3's grab infinite for instance.

Also, not that great for D3 can be VERY exaggerated. D3 can basically rule at Onett unless the player he is facing happens to jump alot, which isn't often from the times I've played on the stage.

Funny, during the first months the game came out, a lot of panicky TOs banned stages because people that weren't very good complained about D3. Guess I'm right.


And maybe YOU will get grabbed, but I don't plan on it. Hell, if you're on the other side of the blocks he can't chain throw you at all simply because if the blocks are broken he can't CG across them. This stage really isn't that great for D3 if the opponent knows what they are doing. You really can't just expect fear of a chain grab to dominate all CPs.

They had good reason to panic. They still do. Permanent walk offs + D3 = insta KO in certain cases just because you got grabbed. Grabbing in Brawl doesn't take much and it sure as hell doesn't take much to master D3's chaingrab like many of you seem to give off.

And you honestly think D3's aren't going to just sit there? Wow. D3 mains will simply go to the other side and WAIT for you there, then punish you simply because you jumped there. Looks like you lose =P.

The amount of skill something takes doesn't matter. D3 is not a valid reason to ban a stage all on his lonesome. Checkpoints aren't broken either.

Actually it is. Combine that with the floor being breakable, and you have a stage where gimping is easily done too easily.

Also, being able to hit a checkpoint and simply stand behind it and not get punished is broken I heard. All I have to do is hit the check point and simply stand there. Your going to be punished for no effort from me simply because I hit the **** thing.

Reasons for what? And how does this let "bad players" win? Good players have the same options, don't they?

I once witnessed a Diddy mirror. The players Diddy who was god aweful won simply because he used the massive aerial room to his advantage, spamming Fairs half the time. Tell me, does this stage seem broken yet?

I'm thinkin' yer yella.

Actually I am mostly blue =P.

Are you suuuuuuuuure? ;p

Yes. A characters weight depends too. If your character is lighter, they won't be flung too far. If they are heavier, they will die at low percents.

I don't have an issue with it. Most people have an issue with it because the moment it comes up, they move over there thinking "this will protect me" then the opponent is an idiot and runs straight to them, then one of them gets totally destroyed by being bounced off the windmill. This is just as ridiculous as saying the rock formation is dumb because someone camped in the middle and then got an infinite off on you.

Thats why it should be a CP right there. Congrats, you just kinda proved my point on that issue. The rock formation CAN be played around more often than the windmill.

No, it is not. Warioware gives you random rewards that are inconsistent. PS2 has consistent layouts that are easily observable and worked around.

Then tell me why I am literally fighting against the stage more often than I am fighting the opponent? It should be obvious, plus it gives too many advantages to certain characters. =\

You're just making stuff up. You take a hazard or stage effect, say the worst possible thing thta could happen, and then say it happens 100% of the time. It doesn't. >_>

Your right. Yes it doesn't happen 100% of the time. What I AM saying is that it happens too randomly. A competitive environment should get rid of these kinds of hazards as often as possible. Also, yes, at the beginning of the run, there is a wall off a building that can kill you for so much as being thrown into it. I didn't make that up. =P

 

[SmashBro99]

Lets add all these random hazards to the legal stages cuz they don't happen ALL THE TIME, yeah!

Remake this please.

 

[Mmac]

Can Dedede even Chaingrab UP the hill in Yoshi's Island anyways?

 

[Sliq]

Lets add all these random hazards to the legal stages cuz they don't happen ALL THE TIME, yeah!

Remake this please.

Let's remove sand bunkers, water hazards, and out of bounds from golf. Oh wait, that would be ********, just like you.

 

[infomon]

Infinites are bad because players only focus on getting them off.

If that were true, then everyone would main ICs, and they'd be considered the best character. But they're not. Yes infinites suck, but they're an inherent part of the game, and there are strategies that beat them. At this point in time, it is not clear that the "infinites" you've pointed out are game-breaking. They change the meta-game, maybe by a lot, but the SBR currently believes they are not insurmountable.

We need to keep in mind that the Recommended Rule List is just the current understanding of the high-level Brawl tournament scene. This is subject to change. But we need a standard for now, and if we all follow this rule list then there's hope to revise it as the game develops. So when tournaments happen where every stock is lost by an infinite into a hazard, or when two pro DeDeDes have to stand side-by-side waiting for the other to approach and fall into a grab... then we'll know we have a problem, and we (the community) can fix it. And when you see that type of thing happen in serious matches, please record the matches so you can submit them as evidence of the problem. Then we can all look and see if the player who was getting screwed by the rules was doing anything wrong, and if they could have easily avoided the "cheapness" if they had more skill.

tl;dr: The high-level meta-game does not currently suggest that there's a problem. Until it does, for most intents and purposes, there isn't one.

And you honestly think D3's aren't going to just sit there? Wow. D3 mains will simply go to the other side and WAIT for you there, then punish you simply because you jumped there. Looks like you lose =P.

Then why aren't you smacking his fat carcass with Pikmin or PKThunder? If he's really just sitting there, then tossing in a PKFlash shouldn't be a problem, right?

Infinites suck, and camping is a viable strategy. But DeDeDe's camping game will lose to many opponents, so that strategy is often a losing one for the DeDeDe.

I once witnessed a Diddy mirror. The players Diddy who was god aweful won simply because he used the massive aerial room to his advantage, spamming Fairs half the time. Tell me, does this stage seem broken yet?

Do you actually think that "awful Diddy" would fare well against the pro's? Why do you say he's awful, when his punishable strategy worked against an opponent who hasn't learned how to counter it?

Then tell me why I am literally fighting against the stage more often than I am fighting the opponent? It should be obvious, plus it gives too many advantages to certain characters. =\

Rainbow Cruise has always been a terrible stage for Ice Climbers; in Melee and in Brawl. Darn right, you're fighting the stage.... just try and tell Nana not to jump off the level But that's exactly why it's a counterpick. This is a natural disadvantage of using the Ice Climbers, so you have to either learn to overcome their weaknesses, or have a secondary ready for counterpick stages. That's... the whole point.

But there's a categorical difference between stages like Rainbow Cruise and PS2, which are annoying for all and miserable for some, vs. stages like Rumble Falls where minimal fighting will actually take place.

Oh wait, that would be ********, just like you.

There's no need for that sort of comment, it gets us nowhere. Look, it's not unreasonable for people to be shocked by the SBR Rule List. Noone I know saw it coming, that Pictochat and Skyworld would be at all permissible. I think it leaves the Smash community fairly vulnerable to have lost trust in the SBR with this rule list; since it's important for us to have pretty good agreement about tournament rules. Antagonizing the smaller smash communities won't help us move forward; what will is responding to their criticisms with patience, rationality, and evidence, and accepting the same from them.

Edit: Hmm Sliq, now that I re-read what you were replying to...... wellll...... still, try and appreciate the surprise many will have with the list, and try to encourage more constructive banter :-)

Spoiler

Also, the golf example is pretty brilliant, on its own.

 

[MysticKenji]

And you honestly think D3's aren't going to just sit there? Wow. D3 mains will simply go to the other side and WAIT for you there, then punish you simply because you jumped there. Looks like you lose =P.

Then throw things at them.

I once witnessed a Diddy mirror. The players Diddy who was god aweful won simply because he used the massive aerial room to his advantage, spamming Fairs half the time. Tell me, does this stage seem broken yet?

Sounds more like the other guy didn't know how to fight there.

Yes. A characters weight depends too. If your character is lighter, they won't be flung too far. If they are heavier, they will die at low percents.

I just tried it with Boozer.
Still didn't die at 150%.

Then tell me why I am literally fighting against the stage more often than I am fighting the opponent? It should be obvious, plus it gives too many advantages to certain characters. =\

You shouldn't be fighting against the stage, you should be fighting with the stage.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Look, it's not unreasonable for people to be shocked by the SBR Rule List. Noone I know saw it coming, that Pictochat and Skyworld would be at all permissible.

Ok, what the hell is going on here?

Do you people not realize that once a stage is banned, that the stage will FOREVER stay banned for the entirety of Brawl's competitive career? There is no way we can possibly "un-ban" a stage. It has been 6 months since the game's release, and yet we have people fighting to ban half of the currently legal stages. Assuming Brawl lasts as long as Melee, we're looking at 7 years of the same stages. Once a stage is placed into the banned category, that means it will never be played competitively (or even casually, probably) for the rest of Brawl's lifespan.

Banning a stage is NOT an easy decision to make. If there is any doubt in our minds about the stage, then that means the stage should stay on until we can prove its bad competitively. To the point that we need to ban it forever. Every time that I see someone say "oh the thingy on the right side of Distant Planet is an instant KO!!11!" I forget that we're dealing with people that have no idea how these stages work competitively. So how about you guys just trust the people who DO know how these stages work competitively?

 

[Siyro]

Everyone has there personal opionion, I myself only have roughly 10 stages remaining on my random list. I just have one question though, why has the standard stock match gone done to three? I still play with a standard of four.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Everyone has there personal opionion, I myself only have roughly 10 stages remaining on my random list. I just have one question though, why has the standard stock match gone done to three? I still play with a standard of four.

Brawl involves more campy strategies, which make the match last longer than a melee match normally would. (obviously exceptions like any combination of samus, jigglypuff, and peach) Four stocks ends up running out the time if one person camps the entire match, which isn't unheard of in brawl. So it would either be 4 stock and like, 11 or 12 minutes, or 3 stock 7-8 minutes.

 

[KishPrime]

Perhaps the entire Pictochat discussion should be moved to this room. It was very enlightening, and actually changed quite a few people's minds once they understood some of the basic principles of the stage.