SBR Recommended Rule List Discussion: Brawl

[gallax]

i highly disagree with any stage with walk offs being allowed in tournament play. the reason would seem obvious now, but i guess not since there are stages with walk off that are counters.

you can grab>throw>take a stock
smash>take a stock at 0%(before hitting)

whoever can simply guard the walk off the best will win. where is character/matchup skill in that? anyone can roll/spotdodge>grab. its just basic prediction and timing. idk how the sbr could allow these stages.

 

[Overswarm]

Putting yourself in a high risk / high reward situation isn't against the competitive grain. Not only is this countered by using a projectile (which most characters have), but this is just as dangerous for the person in the blast zone as it is for those on the outside. Actually, more dangerous for those near the blast zone.

 

[LeeHarris]

Then you should ban Dedede because I am forced to not play my main, Bowser, when I vs. a D3 player, and therefor have to switch characters.

Your move OWM.

If you are speaking of the infinite, then I am trying to get that banned as well. I think it is unhealthy for the competitive spirit of a character to be specifically targeted for such an easy infinite.

But yeah, I basically have the same philosophy as OWM. Same reason I voted ban on Mario Circuit/Bridget of Eldin even though they aren't bad levels.

 

[gallax]

at low percents most projectiles wont have a big enough effect to send you into the walk off. there are only a few projectiles that have this ability to knockback with considerable damage too. that being said, you can still spotdodge/shield projectiles. sure its high risk, but you can't argue that character matchup/skill can be completely overshadowed by the ability to predict your opponents moveset and use the walk off as an instant kill.

plus, for example since i play pika, pika's bthrow rolls and then throws. i can now stand further from the edge than most characters since pika rolls first and gets closer(after grabbing). that means less risk but still able to instant kill.

 

[LeeHarris]

at low percents most projectiles wont have a big enough effect to send you into the walk off. there are only a few projectiles that have this ability to knockback with considerable damage too. that being said, you can still spotdodge/shield projectiles. sure its high risk, but you can't argue that character matchup/skill can be completely overshadowed by the ability to predict your opponents moveset and use the walk off as an instant kill.

plus, for example since i play pika, pika's bthrow rolls and then throws. i can now stand further from the edge than most characters since pika rolls first and gets closer(after grabbing). that means less risk but still able to instant kill.

The only walk offs in the CP-only list are Pipes, Green Hill Zone, and Distant Planet. All 3 have a walk off on only one side. Fight the opponent on one side and you cannot get CG'd to death. If you are afraid of low % kills, you can stay in the center of the stage and avoid the "sudden death" near the blast zones.

I could counter your example of Pikachu's back roll throw by saying I could use a character that has an amazing back throw like D3, Snake, etc against your Pikachu. A CP stage is announced before character selection, that way players can choose who they wish to use after knowing which layout and hazards they will be up against.

 

[gallax]

The only walk offs in the CP-only list are Pipes, Green Hill Zone, and Distant Planet. All 3 have a walk off on only one side. Fight the opponent on one side and you cannot get CG'd to death. If you are afraid of low % kills, you can stay in the center of the stage and avoid the "sudden death" near the blast zones.

I could counter your example of Pikachu's back roll throw by saying I could use a character that has an amazing back throw like D3, Snake, etc against your Pikachu. A CP stage is announced before character selection, that way players can choose who they wish to use after knowing which layout and hazards they will be up against.

first of all i am gonna address the pika counterpick thing. pika can CG these characters you just listed. and the cg can be done minimally 4 times to these chars if at 0%. i will cg you across the board and into oblivion. i will not attack you cuz i know that if i don't and get a grab in then i have instant death coming for you since i can throw you a good distance across the board and will have spaced it out enough to know that the cg will go into the walk off.

next. are you saying that it should a level should be acceptable because ONE side is playable? you're excuse is don't get grabbed or cg'ed? how about saying to not get hit the entire time. at any tournament that you go to there are people there who will always get a grab in on you zince they are that good. m2k is one example. azen is another. for a level to be a cp, the ENTIRE level should be playable. not part of it.

you say there are only 3 walk offs with one side. dont forget that there are 7 total stages with walk offs. you forget about castle siege, delphino plaza, mario circuit, and onett. now i agree that castle siege and delphino should not be banned. but mario ciruit, onett, and the 3 mentioned earlier should be banned. green hill zone/mario cicuit/onett all have walk offs on both sides. the third stage with one walk off is delphino plaza. and are you saying that because the middle is playable it shouldn't be banned? you mean stay in the middle? away from the edge? what if snake plants a c4 in the middle? then you cant stay in the middle or else you get blown up. projectiles make stationary positions innefective. plus green hill zone sometimes explodes in the middle...forcing you to fight near the edges.

 

[Turbo Ether]

First of all, I applaud this recommended ruleset. As far as walkoffs go, if your opponent picks a walkoff stage all you have to do is play a character that can do well on that stage. Stop being so loyal to characters, no one is putting a gun to your head and making you play a character that gets camped and/or chain grabbed off the side.

 

[eskimo bob]

I was honestly surprised at green hill zone being a counterpick. I believe amazing ampharos and xiivi made some good points when they banned it in their suggested ruleset thread.

Sonic the Hedgehog: Green Hill Zone
Possible Issues: Extreme positional advantage, walk-offs, and extreme character bias.
Reason for banishment: The walk-offs are the smallest problem with this stage, especially since they can't be forced into and most characters cannot infinite up the slope of the stage. The next problem comes from character bias and positional advantage that stem from the checkpoint. The checkpoint allows for characters to maintain a positional advantage where they can always dish out more damage than they take. Characters such as Jigglypuff and Sonic are able to take advantage of the unique shape of the stage and their spinning moves to quickly move from one point of the stage to the next, making them hard to approach, especially when the checkpoint is used to aid this. Other characters such as Fox are able to control the checkpoint from a distance thanks to projectiles and also force approach towards the checkpoint with these projectiles. When the stage divides this only furthers the problem as it further limits the approaching options of the offensive player. Once a lead is gained characters who can effectively control the checkpoint have the advantage they will never lose the remainder of the match. The checkpoint simply centralizes and degenerates gameplay in addition to these problems for characters who cannot effectively control it.

what were your opinions on this? (not specifically the quote, but the stage.)

and good call on banning skyworld and making ps2 a cp. I honestly thought that wasn't gonna happen. :/

 

[Dastrn]

[offtopic]

LeeHarris, your new avatar throws me off. I see "LeeHarris" up there, and I just expect to see Snake's face.

Now I see some creepy cartoon and it makes me cry.

[/offtopic]

[ontopic]
good job with the ruleset.
[/ontopic]

[random comment]
cake > pie
[/endretardedness]

 

[Overswarm]

at low percents most projectiles wont have a big enough effect to send you into the walk off. there are only a few projectiles that have this ability to knockback with considerable damage too. that being said, you can still spotdodge/shield projectiles. sure its high risk, but you can't argue that character matchup/skill can be completely overshadowed by the ability to predict your opponents moveset and use the walk off as an instant kill.

plus, for example since i play pika, pika's bthrow rolls and then throws. i can now stand further from the edge than most characters since pika rolls first and gets closer(after grabbing). that means less risk but still able to instant kill.

So you'd be willing to stand on the corner while I pelt you with projectiles until you take 999%?

Standing next to a walkoff isn't a broken strategy. It's a high risk / high reward manuever that most players stop doing because it isn't consistent. You'll win games, but not tournaments.



Galax, you have to be careful not to "theory craft". I could easily make arguments for the banning of anything if I go off a conclusion that is false; the conclusion you have, that walk-offs are bad for competitive play and result in an auto-loss for one player, is false.


As for Green Hill Zone.... I could honestly care less about Jigglypuff and Sonic being able to manuever quickly with a rolling attack. Go them. As for the checkpoints, I rather enjoy them as part of the stage. They can go either way at all times (you can also destroy the ground beneath them in the middle to destroy a checkpoint), and just force you not to approach that area. I've had some good games on that stage.

Regardless, it is a counterpick. If you play Ganon and you are counterpicked here, it might be a good idea to switch characters. It's no different than playing Ice Climbers and being taken to Brinstar, or playing Snake and being taken to Jungle Japes. Some stages are just BAD for some characters; that makes them good counterpicks.

 

[RedPeppers]

Lee is that Cartoon in your avatar from 'The Egg Song" on youtube?

Like the ruleset guys! Jooc how would you do stage strike if there was an even number of starters??

 

[Overswarm]

You don't. There has to be an odd number.

 

[Sliq]

Completely different set of circumstances. I only don't favor stages that give a certain character an advantage. (D3 in this case) The fact that some characters can be CG'd and others can't doesn't mean I'm in favor of banning a certain character. If your character can be CG'd, deal with it. I main ROB and I have to make due with the same problem. If you choose to play a certain character then you do so knowing knowing full well what lays ahead for you in terms of tactics and strategies that will be employed to beat you. If you still stick with a character that can be CG'd, learn to deal with it.

You can ****ing apply this EXACT SAME LOGIC to someone picking a STAGE. If you knowingly play a character that can be infinited on a certain stage, "learn to deal with it."

So what you're telling me is, its ok that 5 characters can be infinited on ANY stage, but as soon as other characters can be infinited we have to throw our hands up in disgust? Are you out of your ****ing mind?

D3 counters bowser. You can either play that matchup, or learn a second character that does better against him to counter Bowser's weakness.

D3 counters (character that can be wall infinted) on Green Greens. You can either play that matchup, or learn a second character that does better against him to counter (said character's) weakness.

Also, didn't OWM openly admit to not wanting people to be FORCED to switch characters? Holy holey arguments Batman!

A CP stage is announced before character selection, that way players can choose who they wish to use after knowing which layout and hazards they will be up against.

Hazards like walls, which against your character may be infinited upon.

Seriously, is the back room just filled with a bunch of clowns?

 

[Overswarm]

You can ****ing apply this EXACT SAME LOGIC to someone picking a STAGE. If you knowingly play a character that can be infinited on a certain stage, "learn to deal with it."

So what you're telling me is, its ok that 5 characters can be infinited on ANY stage, but as soon as other characters can be infinited we have to throw our hands up in disgust? Are you out of your ****ing mind?



D3 counters (character that can be wall infinted) on Green Greens. You can either play that matchup, or learn a second character that does better against him to counter (said character's) weakness.

Also, didn't OWM openly admit to not wanting people to be FORCED to switch characters? Holy holey arguments Batman!



Hazards like walls, which against your character may be infinited upon.

Seriously, is the back room just filled with a bunch of clowns?

Not all clowns. That's why Green Greens is also a counterpick. ^_^

 

[gallax]

So you'd be willing to stand on the corner while I pelt you with projectiles until you take 999%?

Standing next to a walkoff isn't a broken strategy. It's a high risk / high reward manuever that most players stop doing because it isn't consistent. You'll win games, but not tournaments.


Galax, you have to be careful not to "theory craft". I could easily make arguments for the banning of anything if I go off a conclusion that is false; the conclusion you have, that walk-offs are bad for competitive play and result in an auto-loss for one player, is false.


As for Green Hill Zone.... I could honestly care less about Jigglypuff and Sonic being able to manuever quickly with a rolling attack. Go them. As for the checkpoints, I rather enjoy them as part of the stage. They can go either way at all times (you can also destroy the ground beneath them in the middle to destroy a checkpoint), and just force you not to approach that area. I've had some good games on that stage.

Regardless, it is a counterpick. If you play Ganon and you are counterpicked here, it might be a good idea to switch characters. It's no different than playing Ice Climbers and being taken to Brinstar, or playing Snake and being taken to Jungle Japes. Some stages are just BAD for some characters; that makes them good counterpicks.

first off, having one character standing next to a walk off while the other one just shoot porjectiles at the other is not competive play. its target practice. and lets say you play with characters who dont use projectiles. like MK, marth, or G&w(projectile is kinda useless), what are you gonna do now? you are gonna be forced to attempt? what if i have a projectile and i keep shooting you wiith lasers or arrows while you stay away from the "bad side"? are you willing to take damage up to 999% ? the answer is no.

at this point people haven't won tourneys from this because there was never any stage(other than castle siege and delphino plaza) that had a walk off the entire match. but you are gonna see people using walk off stages as their strategy to win tourney's. instead of ledge spiking with DK you are gonna have him cargo you then walk over to the ledge and throw you out. and i can assure you that tournament final have been played on tcastle siege and deplhino plaza and people have lost due to those walk offs. even if it was just one stock.(remember that i am still in favor of keeping cs/dp as counters).

and be careful not to "theory craft"? especially on a false conclusion? this is the most ignorant statement i have ever heard from you. it is my OPINION. that statement makes you look like a complete fool. im just arguing my beliefe here that walk offs should be banned.

you should really have to read what Xiivi has to say and try to understand his point. your counter statement to it was "well ive had some good matches there so its ok for me. i don't mind that this MAKES you choose different characters and stuff." if you read above sliq even quoted you saying that you openly admitted to not wanting people to be forced to switch characters. what happened to this stance?

but stages like brinstar and jungle japes being counterpicked mean you know the matchup well and that you are picking them cuz you have more opitions with your character than the opponents character. these stages do not have walk offs too. your point is ierroneous. you are just telling me what a counterpick is.

and one more thing that i would like to ask. do you think that the sbr could deliberate on changin it to 2 bans per person in a match? since there are a crazy amount of stages im sure that a total of 2 being banned isn't going to make that big a difference. but if each person as able to ban 2 stages then i think the brawl tournament community would get more interesting and competitive play would be better.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Great ruleset, was surprised at the 8 minute time limit, i thought we were pretty solid at 7. And i personally wanted to see Spear Pillar cp/banned, just cause its so much fun
And on the walkoffs, theyre CP's for a reason; theyre picked specifically to put you at a disadvantage, and that disadvantage is that you can be low % killed

 

[Overswarm]

first off, having one character standing next to a walk off while the other one just shoot porjectiles at the other is not competive play. its target practice.

Oh, I get it. A joke. That isn't true.

Competitive play is competition based around a set of rules that, ultimately, is an even set where the victor is decided through the decisions of both players in the game based off of variables in their own gameplay as well as the arena in which they fight in.

If you decide to stand on the edge and try to get a cheap KO, I'll spam projectiles all day at you.

and lets say you play with characters who dont use projectiles. like MK, marth, or G&w(projectile is kinda useless), what are you gonna do now? you are gonna be forced to attempt? what if i have a projectile and i keep shooting you wiith lasers or arrows while you stay away from the "bad side"? are you willing to take damage up to 999% ? the answer is no.

Now you're getting it! This is the evolution of a simple idea. Standing and spamming projectiles counters sitting on the edge of the blast zone hoping to get a b-throw, and so we have now removed the possibility of anyone doing that and winning if they don't have a way of combating projectiles or shooting projectiles themselves.

Now for those without projectiles facing those standing on the blast zone, it's up to them to find their own counters. I know it is unlikely that Metaknight would have a problem combating this tactic due to his tornado, fast dash and long grab range. G&W's projectile isn't useless, but he can also bucket many projectiles. I'm not gonna go through and list off what characters without projectiles can do, but I can tell you that they can find their own way. Not my responsibility to show someone how to counter a brick wall with their character.

at this point people haven't won tourneys from this because there was never any stage(other than castle siege and delphino plaza) that had a walk off the entire match. but you are gonna see people using walk off stages as their strategy to win tourney's. instead of ledge spiking with DK you are gonna have him cargo you then walk over to the ledge and throw you out. and i can assure you that tournament final have been played on tcastle siege and deplhino plaza and people have lost due to those walk offs. even if it was just one stock.(remember that i am still in favor of keeping cs/dp as counters).

That is acceptable. It is a viable strategy; you're feelings on the matter are irrelevant, as it is not broken, is easily counterable by a large number of strategies, and is just as dangerous to both players.

Competitive play doesn't have to be "fun", slow, or anything like that. It might seem pretty lame to watch the second phase of Castle Siege appear and see a Pikachu stand by the blast zone and spam projectiles, but it is a strategy that the player chooses. If it turns out to be a good strategy, good for the Pika. If it turns out to be broken and undefeatable, then we'd give it another look.

and be careful not to "theory craft"? especially on a false conclusion? this is the most ignorant statement i have ever heard from you. it is my OPINION. that statement makes you look like a complete fool. im just arguing my beliefe here that walk offs should be banned.

Your OPINION (internet yelling is fun) is irrelevant. I do not act on opinion in these cases; the fact of the matter is that walk-offs do not break competitive play in any way by themselves. Only combined with certain attributes are they ban-worthy.

you should really have to read what Xiivi has to say and try to understand his point. your counter statement to it was "well ive had some good matches there so its ok for me. i don't mind that this MAKES you choose different characters and stuff." if you read above sliq even quoted you saying that you openly admitted to not wanting people to be forced to switch characters. what happened to this stance?

Sliq didn't quote me.

I understand quite well the points Xiivi has to make; I also understand them to be not as big a deal as he claims. I've played several tournament matches on this stage, and this is just a counterpick like any other.

but stages like brinstar and jungle japes being counterpicked mean you know the matchup well and that you are picking them cuz you have more opitions with your character than the opponents character. these stages do not have walk offs too. your point is ierroneous. you are just telling me what a counterpick is.

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

and one more thing that i would like to ask. do you think that the sbr could deliberate on changin it to 2 bans per person in a match? since there are a crazy amount of stages im sure that a total of 2 being banned isn't going to make that big a difference. but if each person as able to ban 2 stages then i think the brawl tournament community would get more interesting and competitive play would be better.

This is unlikely. The amount of stages is more than likely going to shrink in the future rather than expand, and currently one ban seems to be doing quite well... especially with the stage strike system in place, so you don't have to ban a neutral just so you don't get a bad start. It's a possibility though, although people already have an odd amount of difficulty remembering their single bans.

Great ruleset, was surprised at the 8 minute time limit, i thought we were pretty solid at 7.

We did too and originally had the option for 7-8 minutes... but after a large number of high level matches going to the time limit on 7 minutes without excessive camping being involved, we felt 7 was too short after a revote and settled with 8.

 

[Xona]

I read the rule list, but I didn't find any rule for Custom Stages, the included ones weren't on the CP or Ban-list either. What is the rule for custom stages? I'd like to see the option of a player making a stage in stage-builder for their CP, but I know that there is a problem as someone could make a layout-clone of New Pork City, Temple or Spear Pillar.

I think that custom stages should be an option for the player to make one as his or her CP, but there should be a system in place to make sure they're not broken, clones of the other player's global ban, or clones of a stage that was already played. Let's say that I select my global ban as fd (which I would), my opponent selects his as Rainbow Cruise, the starter is Lylat Cruise, I win that round, my opponent makes a clone of fd in stage builder, fd was my global ban and I'm forced to play on it or a clone of it. That would be unfair. But a categoric ban on custom stages is also unfair, and that's why I believe that that there should be a system in play to approve or disapprove custom stages for CP's.

I don't mean that I want the SBR to approve or disapprove every last one of them (that would take forever), but for the SBR to make a set of guidelines for custom stages in tourneys, and any custom stage that follows the guidelines is allowed to be made and used as a CP. The guidelines may or may not be up for editing.

 

[Overswarm]

Nope, Custom Stages are not a part of the SBR ruleset.

If a TO wants to use custom stages, there is no way we could tell whether it is worthwhile or not (nor would we want to devote our time to do so), so we can't really approve of a ruleset with custom stages as "fair".

 

[gallax]

the first part was supposed to be a joke. trying to lighten the atmoshere. the OPIONION, in retrospect, should have been bolded. i was not yelling. i was trying to get your attention on that part.

and r u advocating that competitive play should now revolve around someone being forced not to use a character because of a stage? so there shouldn't be a thing called main character? just who do you use on certain stages?

and i just can't understand why people don't want to make competitive play fun. so why do we play smash again? i dont know about you but for me its not for fame and fortune. i play smash cuz i love the competition. but when a person picks a stage that has walk off and i get thrown out at 0% it just doesn't ring competitive to me. it rings "you are a d*ck for picking this stage and doing that cuz there isn't any other way you could win." should or shouldn't smash tournement try and emphasize character ability/matchup skill? walk offs frown upon this. it means im gonna pick one of the best projectile spammers(especially with a shield cuz then i could block projectiles from hitting me) and bombard my opponent till get he gets close enough to where im gonna cg him or just throw him into the walk off. my strategy is gonna be spam and throw. not ok if he dairs me now he is gonna have a few frames of lag so i need to get close enough to where i can either fsmash for the kill or if i dont get there in time to get a hit before his lag ends and i can still send a laser to get a free hit too. gameplay is changed with walk offs imo. and not for the better.

 

[Turbo Ether]

the first part was supposed to be a joke. trying to lighten the atmoshere. the OPIONION, in retrospect, should have been bolded. i was not yelling. i was trying to get your attention on that part.

and r u advocating that competitive play should now revolve around someone being forced not to use a character because of a stage? so there shouldn't be a thing called main character? just who do you use on certain stages?

and i just can't understand why people don't want to make competitive play fun. so why do we play smash again? i dont know about you but for me its not for fame and fortune. i play smash cuz i love the competition. but when a person picks a stage that has walk off and i get thrown out at 0% it just doesn't ring competitive to me. it rings "you are a d*ck for picking this stage and doing that cuz there isn't any other way you could win." should or shouldn't smash tournement try and emphasize character ability/matchup skill? walk offs frown upon this. it means im gonna pick one of the best projectile spammers(especially with a shield cuz then i could block projectiles from hitting me) and bombard my opponent till get he gets close enough to where im gonna cg him or just throw him into the walk off. my strategy is gonna be spam and throw. not ok if he dairs me now he is gonna have a few frames of lag so i need to get close enough to where i can either fsmash for the kill or if i dont get there in time to get a hit before his lag ends and i can still send a laser to get a free hit too. gameplay is changed with walk offs imo. and not for the better.

Character matchups are not only about emphasizing how they do against eachother on starter stages. This is not Tekken or Street Fighter or Guilty Gear. This is Smash. The matchups should be influenced by the stage. It allows a lot more depth into the meta game. If you can't deal with a valid strategy you don't deserve to win. If your "main" gets ***** by a certain strategy on a counterpick stage that you failed to strike, I suggest you evaluate your "loyalty" to that character, at least temporarily.

 

[Overswarm]

and r u advocating that competitive play should now revolve around someone being forced not to use a character because of a stage? so there shouldn't be a thing called main character? just who do you use on certain stages?

If your main character cannot get around base disadvantages that come about in certain stages or matchups, then yes. You are never forced to change characters, but the idea of a counterpick is to give the CPer an advantage and/or the opponent a disadvantage. All the opponent can do is have a secondary character that is able to negate the disadvantages that would otherwise be given to them on the stage; if the said opponent refuses to do so, it is of his own volition and he revokes any right to complain about disadvantages that could have been averted.

Of course, we aren't completely draconian; there is a stage ban for this very reason. Some characters just have a really bad stage, and sometimes characters have excellent counterpicks. Should this situation occur, you have the ability to ban a stage to improve your chances.

Sticking with a single character 100% of the time is a disadvantage; we did not create the ruleset with the intent of allowing someone to play one character in any situation without any disadvantages.

and i just can't understand why people don't want to make competitive play fun. so why do we play smash again? i dont know about you but for me its not for fame and fortune.

There is no"we". I do not care why anyone else plays smash, but when you play in a tournament it is for competition and money; fun, learning, and social atmosphere are all secondary effects that are very much desired (and rightly so), but jeopardizing competition and fairness for any of them is not something a TO should do.

i play smash cuz i love the competition. but when a person picks a stage that has walk off and i get thrown out at 0% it just doesn't ring competitive to me. it rings "you are a d*ck for picking this stage and doing that cuz there isn't any other way you could win."

Then you are new to the competitive scene, or do not have a competitive mindset. You do what it takes to win, period. If you find something broken, you abuse it and take your winnings to a bank until people around you find a way to beat it or the community decides it is a broken tactic and ban it.

So I implore you: abuse walk-off edges. If they are nearly as awful as you say they are, you should be able to win every counterpick you have by simply camping that blast zone. You will then have proven to me, and everyone else, that it is just too good to be allowed and we can then ban them. I will happily await your results.

should or shouldn't smash tournement try and emphasize character ability/matchup skill?

I find it humorous that you say this, and then list the following:

walk offs frown upon this. it means im gonna pick one of the best projectile spammers(especially with a shield cuz then i could block projectiles from hitting me) and bombard my opponent till get he gets close enough to where im gonna cg him or just throw him into the walk off. my strategy is gonna be spam and throw. not ok if he dairs me now he is gonna have a few frames of lag so i need to get close enough to where i can either fsmash for the kill or if i dont get there in time to get a hit before his lag ends and i can still send a laser to get a free hit too. gameplay is changed with walk offs imo. and not for the better.

All of which is part of character ability and matchup skill.


Gameplay is changed with walk-offs just as much as it is changed with platforms. Or small stages rather than medium stages. Or hazards rather than non-hazards.

There are many types of "skill" in Smash, and your ability to use a stage to your advantage is one of them.

The argument that walk-offs change the game in such a fashion that it is no longer using skill sets in gameplay that we want to see in competition is a good argument, but one I do not agree with. There are those that agree walk-offs are detrimental to competitive play, but I have yet to see this. I have seen smart players take a high risk / high reward scenario and use it to their advantage from time to time when they are behind a stock or their opponent makes a mistake.... but I've yet to see someone actually abuse these walk-offs in such a way that show that an opponent, conscious of what you are doing, couldn't stop you.

 

[Firestorm88]

I'm happy with this ruleset and am glad that there is at least some reasons listed beside every stage for why it's in the category it is. This kinda stuff should be documented fully. It's really hard to justify a lot of the rules in Melee at this point in time and I don't want Brawl to have the same fate. Hopefully you guys archive things in the Backroom and they won't get pruned.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The rule set is awesome. I love it. The striking system is very nice. But the stages....not so much.

My group of smashers (myself, Nicholas Riddle, and Seibrik) have tried many stages that were at first banned in FL, and are now in your CP list, to see if we could add some stages to make it more interesting. We tried ones with permanent walk offs, we tried with green greens, it just doesn't work. The DDD player even says the stages are ridiculous to use, even as the main cause of the walk-offs being banned in the first place.

Walk-offs destroy competitive smash. It is not competitive once one person whose character is better at making you go all the way across the ledge, so the other person tries to stay away, and they both sit on the opposite sides of the stage.

It is a RIDICULOUS statement to say (not a real quote, more like a generalization) "Sitting on one side of the stage, avoiding an insta-kill situation, while the other person stays on the other, hoping to get a gay kill on you" doesn't mess up competitive play. All it is is a camping match. Sure, the person who can get gayed really quick might have a projectile. Big whoop. Because all he is doing is sitting there until the other approaches. NEITHER PARTY WILL WIN! It will be a draw, since neither will approach, even if one character is at 999% and the other is at 0, both on their first stock. I mean, the person with 999% will lose, but it is an utterly stupid concept that every match on said stage(s) will be like that.

I played a match on castle siege yesterday, yoshi vs MK, and when the 2nd transformation came, no progress in the match happened. The statues prevented my eggs from giong through, and he couldn't approach me because i was positioned so i would grab him and kill him, since i destroyed the right statue. That is basically the same concept as every walk off level, since no stage prevents projectiles that is also a walk off, without having a middle area that is protected on both sides, like green greens.

Green greens against DDD is stupid. To win, you must do one of these three things:
1. Pick 1 of 7 characters that cannot be chaingrabbed.
2. Run to the sides EVERY TIME because otherwise you will be chaingrabbed infinitely. This also doesn't work because DDD is huge, and can either grab you anyway, or hit you since his hitboxes will cover the ENTIRE PLATFORM.
3. Pick DDD, in which it will be either a chaingrabbing battle or camping battle.

For Distant Planet, you can get hit on the little creature that comes from the right side, making you die. Some characters can do this easier, and some are more susceptible to it. I know that's what makes a counterpick, but such a vast disadvantage to certain characters should make it banned. Also, when it rains, it elminates play on the left side of the stage. If you are against a CGer, it can be a good thing, but you should still be able to play on all parts of the stage all the time.

Rainbow cruise is for the most part fine. The only things are:
People with tether recoveries are severely gimped, since they do not gain any significant momentum from their up-b to aid them (ZSS a little less since she has down-b). Also, Kirby's and Metaknight's up throw are incredibly broken. It sends them to the highest available point and hits them, causing the opponent to die at 0%. Yeah i know you can ban a stage, and that can make it a CP, but there is one more thing. If you say "well then, just don't get grabbed against kirby or mk" the match becomes another camp festival. You must run away from the MK or Kirby until you reach the top, otherwise, you will die since ALL good players can get a grab in if the opponent doesn't run away from them.

I may sound biased, but as you can see in my sig, i play pikachu and yoshi, two of the characters who also contribute to the problem of the walk off stages. Even if i get an advantage from a stage, i hate CPing there because it either makes the match a camp fest, like yesterday on castle siege, or give me a huge advantage, even if my character itself has a disadvantage.

For everybody in the sbr who says that camping was destroying this game and supported the walk off stages, you are all hypocrites. You are promoting camping with all the walk off stages. This is my opinion.

 

[gallax]

ok i do see your point and i can understand the midsets now. even though i dont agree with it i guess this is like new age smashing. i think we both have good points and both have done well in explaining. i guess we will see what happens in the near future even though i highly dislike walk offs and completely agree with ESAM here.

 

[Kadiev]

wow everyone in the smash back room needs to get booted out. Sonic stage? yoshi's island? luigi's mansion? pirate ship? wtf seriously

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Kadiev, statements like that are not needed in this thread. If you are going to post anything, post it intelligently

 

[SamuraiPanda]

OMG walk off stages are soooo broken!!1!

Recently at Smash and Coffee 2, there was a match between Bloodhawk and Overswarm. The first round was OS's ROB vs BH's DeDeDe, and OS was able to win. So then BH counterpicks Green Hill Zone, which was legal at the tournament. Because OS was playing a character that can be chaingrabbed, he switched to Metaknight who can't be chaingrabbed. In response, BH switched to his main, Lucario. What resulted was an extremely close match that had nearly everyone in the tournament was watching on the edge of their seats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn36WgwIc0I


I've been to several tournaments that have allowed all of the stages in the CP list. Every single one of them ran smoothly and perfectly. Nobody complained about the stages afterwards, and everyone was satisfied with how it went. Trust us when we say that we know what we're doing. This is a great stage list.

 

[Deleted member]

It's a pretty good stage list except for Luigi's Mansion. Why in the hell is that stage legitimate?

Not only is it a mini-Hyrule, but you can run away on it all ****ing day and Meta Knight is broken as **** there. Tornado spam works too well. You can't say that breaking the house to prevent it from happening is a strategy because it isn't - the house regens in 20 seconds flat, while you waste your moves and make them stale.

I'm really shocked to see it still live when Critical Hit has it banned, the largest brawl tournament coming up soon.

 

[sevenmorehills]

I may have missed this, but is there a rule on the set expanding if players meet in the losers' bracket or finals that have already played each other?

 

[clowsui]

esam i just wanted to address your grabbing comment
go watch azen vs chudat at mlg...vegas? idk, it's one where it's cf vs icies
look the mechanics of grabbing and the defensive system haven't changed that much where it's impossible to avoid grabs. azen managed to prevent himself from getting grabbed throughout 3 matches, where chu had the option to wobble yet azen. still. won.

 

[MajinSweet]

This the set your talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ4qJk2NCG8

 

[munkus beaver]

I do not think "Pick one of the 7 characters that can not be chain grabbed" is an effective reason for allowing green hill zone

Recently at Smash and Coffee 2, there was a match between Bloodhawk and Overswarm. The first round was OS's ROB vs BH's DeDeDe, and OS was able to win. So then BH counterpicks Green Hill Zone, which was legal at the tournament. Because OS was playing a character that can be chaingrabbed, he switched to Metaknight who can't be chaingrabbed. In response, BH switched to his main, Lucario. What resulted was an extremely close match that had nearly everyone in the tournament was watching on the edge of their seats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn36WgwIc0I


I've been to several tournaments that have allowed all of the stages in the CP list. Every single one of them ran smoothly and perfectly. Nobody complained about the stages afterwards, and everyone was satisfied with how it went. Trust us when we say that we know what we're doing. This is a great stage list.

Bridge of Eldrin is banned, in part, because matches end up being absurdly long and because DDD can chain grab someone to death?

That lasted until the last 25 seconds because of how much the stage encourages camping the checkpoints. People are just going to hang out at the check points when they are ahead because they have no reason to attack.

 

[munkus beaver]

*doublepost, can't seem to delete it*

 

[Overswarm]

I do not think "Pick one of the 7 characters that can not be chain grabbed" is an effective reason for allowing green hill zone

There are several more than 7, and besides... in the future I'd probably go ROB there anyway.

Bridge of Eldrin is banned, in part, because matches end up being absurdly long and because DDD can chain grab someone to death?

That lasted until the last 25 seconds because of how much the stage encourages camping the checkpoints. People are just going to hang out at the check points when they are ahead because they have no reason to attack.

While this is a possibility, most matches don't last that long; I have the uncanny ability to take matches and stretch them to the time limit and no longer use my own experience regarding time running out as a standard. I play very patiently and safely, and am conscious of the timer. That is a good observation though, and something that may need to be watched for future revisions to this ruleset.

I may have missed this, but is there a rule on the set expanding if players meet in the losers' bracket or finals that have already played each other?

The set will be played fresh. Due to the counter-picking mechanics of Smash (of which our competitions are based and is part of the unique lifeblood of our community), giving someone even a one game lead can often make or break a set. As such, we felt that transferring wins over is not a good idea and instead a fresh set should be played.

This is not without precedence though; what you are suggesting was tried several times in the past (including MLG events) and led to poor results.

It's a pretty good stage list except for Luigi's Mansion. Why in the hell is that stage legitimate?

This is a stage that will be watched in the future, but the majority of issues people have found on this stage does not stem from the stage itself but their inability to play competitively on it. The mechanics of the stage are completely under your control; the top level can easily be destroyed (thus making the bottom level vulnerable to attack), and the house will not respawn until the entire house is destroyed. Often, games between two people on this stage that have experience with it will result in one side of the stage being destroyed with the other left intact (and each player attempting to move the battle to their preferred side) or the top level being destroyed by one player and the opposing player then attempting to destroy the bottom and camp the ledge until the house returns.

The advantage is clearly in favor of the player who wants the house intact, but this is a counterpick and that is acceptable.

This is a stage we will be watching, though it is primarily for time based reasons rather than anything else. The mechanics of the stage are in control of the players; the cave of immortality only exists when you refuse to destroy segments of the house.

As for MK destroying on that stage.... it IS a good stage for him, there is no denying that. However, the tornado becoming the end all attack there is not accurate. You can DI out of it after only one tornado (not even a full one), and can also destroy a top platform so that MK's tornado will destroy the bottom level (thus removing his tornado trap).

 

[Turbo Ether]

It's not even just 7 characters.

Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Fox
Pikachu
GW
Zelda
Sheik
Meta Knight
Falco
Pokemon Trainer
Ice Climbers
D3
Olimar
Jigglypuff

Can all be used against a Dedede trying to counterpick a walkoff stage. That's over a 1/3 of the cast.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Green Hill Zone was one of the more hotly debated stages.

What set it apart from Eldin was that its actually possible to kill D3 there, at least at much lower percentages than on Eldin. So, while a D3 can CG you, you still can kill them at reasonablely low percents (for Brawl) and keep pace. Add to that that the check points can disrupt CG's as can the broken parts of the level. CGing isn't terribly overpowered on greenhill so that other characters can't win. It was a big question though, but at this point in time most of us felt it better to leave it on and see what develops than to ban it and find out later there wasn't a problem.

There will be future versions of the ruleset released, I'm guessing about once a year around this time.

 

[MK26]

Quick question... both YI Pipes and Pictochat have 2/3s majority, right? Then why do they both have asterisks beside them?

 

[Overswarm]

what asterisks? You're crazy.



We had revotes on those two stages and I forgot to remove them.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

By meta knights infinte dimensional cape, of course it is banned, but is it banned to use it to better place the attack...as in using it for combat rather than hiding?
Exhibit A: Joe uses the special technique to extend the range of his down-B(is this forbidden)
Exhibit B: Fred is about to lose his last life, so he uses the technique to hide.(of course this is forbidden, and down right cowardly).