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Sauga Presentz: ~The Alphamale Biweekliez!~ ' Next Date: TBA MELEEE!

What's your vote for Bimonthly name?

  • The Alphamale Bimonthlies

    Votes: 3 25.0%
  • Unleash Your Madnan!! Bimonthlies

    Votes: 3 25.0%
  • Adnan DOES HATE getting stroked

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • *insert the name of some seriously gay club + Chocolate *****es*

    Votes: 5 41.7%

  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .

Percon

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
1,945
Location
St. Catharines, ON, CA
David, it's almost unfair to be comparing Kirby to the "big three", whom are almost untouchable beyond anyone besides "high tier" (dedede, falco, ICs, the like) and themselves.

Though I personally don't think kirby's too bad. Kirby's a useful counter to spacies, who he can score a free 50 damage on and gimp easily. (also, dair's pretty useful for gimping in general, expecially followed by a footstool)

Not to say he's the greatest, but he's certainly not awful. I'd go to say he's juuuuust higher than the median of the characters.

EDIT: oh, well you just posted what I was getting at

NEVAR MIND
 

Dragon_Hawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,133
Location
Toronto, Canada
David, it's almost unfair to be comparing Kirby to the "big three", whom are almost untouchable beyond anyone besides "high tier" (dedede, falco, ICs, the like) and themselves.

Though I personally don't think kirby's too bad. Kirby's a useful counter to spacies, who he can score a free 50 damage on and gimp easily. (also, dair's pretty useful for gimping in general, expecially followed by a footstool)

Not to say he's the greatest, but he's certainly not awful. I'd go to say he's juuuuust higher than the median of the characters.

EDIT: oh, well you just posted what I was getting at

NEVAR MIND
ic are awkward i personally feel that while they are not horrible against snake they are destroyed very easily by meta and gaw but that's a bit of a tangent

kirby does not counter spacies. fox and wolf, maybe, but he's definitely at a disadvantage against falco because of how shine, laser, and falco's superior shield game keeps him out. oh it's not as bad as say gaw but he's clearly not at advantage.

also, even with the gonzo combos i'd argue that a defensive fox will beat him by killing him at 80 with u-smash and lasering him and basically doing what fox did to him in melee only how instead of u-throw --> u-air the combo is u-throw --> laser. fox's u-smash makes fox's shield game superior to kirby's. add in that fox is faster and we have a winner. kirby may have better priority than fox but he's still slow and weak and constantly forced to fight, which tends to suck when you're not meta or gaw (who are the only characters imho who have the movesets to be able to approach and rambo during games most of the time).

also, being slightly over the median means nothing. everyone below high tier in brawl sucks. this is fact.

in melee you could play mid and do well, but melee was actually fairly balanced as far as fighters go. this is not melee. in melee the mid tier was composed mainly of characters with enough weapons to put themselves at disadvantage to the top but could still win with proper playing (jiggs, ic, ganon, dk, etc). due to the limiting nature of brawl and how the lower characters are slower and weaker and gameplay is more basic, the mids and under have much less available to mitigate their numerous weaknesses and cover them up. their glaring flaws are glaring. in kirby's case, it would be his lack of speed, priority, and moves.

so. kirby isn't high. kirby is mid.

mid is unviable in tournament play where the top tiers run the show.

the sooner everyone accepts this, the sooner people will improve and stop holding stupid delusions about winning with a bad character. it won't happen. it never happens in games like brawl. it just doesn't.
 

Dragon_Hawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,133
Location
Toronto, Canada
gaw is also playable and probably in that echelon (meta, snake, and gaw although i think gaw is the weakest much in the same way that marth is the weakest of the top 3 in melee).

high tier will be forever disputed but will eventually comprise of rob, falco, pit, dedede, marth, wario and then a few other characters. they will be decently viable.

everyone else will be epic fail.

no exceptions.
 

Percon

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
1,945
Location
St. Catharines, ON, CA
I'd have to disagree with you about the Falco part, but maybe I don't have enough spacie practice.

I play snake and recognize that he's one of the best characters and that few can compete with him.

You've got to remember, though, there always those who are going to cling to a character no matter how good they actually are... even if Snake/MK/G&W win all the big prizes, there'll still be those who play ______ for _____ reason. Maybe one or two out of the plethora will actually succeed (as in, do decently well), though if that's the path they chose to take then so be it.

(snake FTW)
 

I.B

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
1,704
Location
Torontario
lol, I remember before Brawl came out, Adnan was so confident that Metaknight would be mid tier...
 

Dragon_Hawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,133
Location
Toronto, Canada
if they want to play a bad character for the sake of playing a bad character that's fine.

i'm just saying that it's stupid and they'll never do well. brawl's fundamentals and gameplay engine prevent them from doing well.

in brawl, not only are moves as a whole slowed down (for everyone below high) there is an added factor of stale moves punishing your ability to ko if you overuse your fast (usable) moves. on limited characters, this hurts severely. it's not enough to have fast moves anymore. you have you have several of them. the good characters have ways of mitigating this punishment (stale moves) by spamming projectiles, using chain throws, or by simply having multiple good moves. the bad characters don't. they essentially get punished for existing. and that's not even getting into the plethora of disadvantages they get from their mediocre (or worse) movesets.

you play top if you want to do well. you play high if you like them and want to do well, or want a secondary that isn't top, or need a specific matchup taken care of, etc. play anything lower and you're a casual player. that's all there is to it. there isn't enough there anymore in the mid tiers to justify their use.
 

pyrnight

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
376
Location
St. Catharines, Ontario
kirby is viable for competative play, he
is not as bad as people make him out to be,
a decent character all around in my oppinion
pretty much everybody just hates on kirby becuase they think he isn't
cool and its embarrasing to be killed by kirby. I killed a
guy with kirby once and holy **** man,
he was just really really pissed, then going on about how HIS character
sucks and additional johns and what not.
and kirby has those massive combos against spacies
doesn't anybody realize this?
afraid to tell you guys... but you really have to learn the game more
of everybody i know, the toronto players and david don't have
anything usefull to talk about
 

Percon

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
1,945
Location
St. Catharines, ON, CA
I remember saying to myself once that I thought it'd be "impossible to nerf falcon". He's supposed to be fast AND strong, right? HOW CAN YOU LOSE WITH SUCH A COMBINATION?

lol

(but that was long ago)

EDIT: Kevin, WTF, is your enter key stuck or something?

PS. You're gonna get flamed (unless this is an elaborate troll or something)
 

Dragon_Hawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,133
Location
Toronto, Canada
kirby is viable for competative play, he
is not as bad as people make him out to be,
a decent character all around.
pretty much everybody just hates on kirby becuase they think he isn't
cool and its embarrasing to be killed by kirby. I killed a
guy with kirby once and
he was just really really pissed, then going on about how HIS character
sucks and additional johns and what not.
and kirby has those massive combos against spacies
doesn't anybody realize this?
afraid to tell you guys... but you really have to learn the game more
of everybody i know, the toronto players and david don't have
anything usefull to talk about
spacies aren't his problem matchups it's the top tiers, who he has literally zero chance against

sure use him as a random secondary and counterpick if you think kirby will do better against them than a top tier (lol) but maining kirby makes you a bye to any gaw, snake, or meta

edit: also you're ********. of course kirby's a decent character overall. but being decent overall isn't enough anymore, you need to be good in at least two areas to be playable now.
 

Geist

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
4,893
Location
Menswear section
EDIT: Kevin, WTF, is your enter key stuck or something?
I think it was an elaborate brawl poem.

Also, I forgot to say in my last post that brampton may or may not may be maybe be able to make it next biweekly, or at least maybe I may be able to. Also, reguardless of what tier lists might say, I seriously believe snake is going to be very broken if people actually ever get good at this game. (or maybe the tier lists already say that)

I can't find a solid brawl tier list.
 

Dragon_Hawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,133
Location
Toronto, Canada
gaw meta snake (in reverse order)

rob falco pit marth dedede wario ic and then a bunch of others depending on who you ask (in no particular order)

everyone else is trash
 

Moe)2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
80
Location
Mississauga
ic are awkward i personally feel that while they are not horrible against snake they are destroyed very easily by meta and gaw but that's a bit of a tangent

kirby does not counter spacies. fox and wolf, maybe, but he's definitely at a disadvantage against falco because of how shine, laser, and falco's superior shield game keeps him out. oh it's not as bad as say gaw but he's clearly not at advantage.

also, even with the gonzo combos i'd argue that a defensive fox will beat him by killing him at 80 with u-smash and lasering him and basically doing what fox did to him in melee only how instead of u-throw --> u-air the combo is u-throw --> laser. fox's u-smash makes fox's shield game superior to kirby's. add in that fox is faster and we have a winner. kirby may have better priority than fox but he's still slow and weak and constantly forced to fight, which tends to suck when you're not meta or gaw (who are the only characters imho who have the movesets to be able to approach and rambo during games most of the time).

also, being slightly over the median means nothing. everyone below high tier in brawl sucks. this is fact.

in melee you could play mid and do well, but melee was actually fairly balanced as far as fighters go. this is not melee. in melee the mid tier was composed mainly of characters with enough weapons to put themselves at disadvantage to the top but could still win with proper playing (jiggs, ic, ganon, dk, etc). due to the limiting nature of brawl and how the lower characters are slower and weaker and gameplay is more basic, the mids and under have much less available to mitigate their numerous weaknesses and cover them up. their glaring flaws are glaring. in kirby's case, it would be his lack of speed, priority, and moves.

so. kirby isn't high. kirby is mid.

mid is unviable in tournament play where the top tiers run the show.

the sooner everyone accepts this, the sooner people will improve and stop holding stupid delusions about winning with a bad character. it won't happen. it never happens in games like brawl. it just doesn't.
I love this little speach, you indirectly atk everything wrong with Brawl. It is more strategy based, but the problem is they got rid of the "skill". Melee took several yrs to master, thats y teh n00bs love Brawl. Easy to win and isnt hard to play. I hate when ppl call advanced tactics glitches, cuz what it really comes down to is "stop moving so fast because I cant hit you, your cheating!" lol
 

Geist

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
4,893
Location
Menswear section
wootage!! only melee tournament x] Im so in.

And so much is wrong with brawl. We are all scarred from tripping, and lack of metagame pushing tactics. Basically what I see coming out of Brawl in the future is an awkward and completely defensive fighting/camping/partay game.
unless....
 

Crooked Crow

drank from lakes of sorrow
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
2,247
wish i could come, but i am busy for the next
like 3 weeks
=[

Also:
I PLAY LINK IN MELEE AND BRAWL HAHAHAHH

.................
 

Dragon_Hawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,133
Location
Toronto, Canada
I love this little speach, you indirectly atk everything wrong with Brawl. It is more strategy based, but the problem is they got rid of the "skill". Melee took several yrs to master, thats y teh n00bs love Brawl. Easy to win and isnt hard to play. I hate when ppl call advanced tactics glitches, cuz what it really comes down to is "stop moving so fast because I cant hit you, your cheating!" lol
although i agree with you on the adv tech =/= glitch bit, i'm not meaning to attack brawl

i'm actually trying to look at this as objectively as possible

in brawl, there is nothing that mitigates or helps minimize the weaknesses of the weaker characters. they are exactly how they appear (or close too it). because of this, the good characters are the ones who were designed better.

in this case, since three (possibly more but at the moment three) stand out very clearly and monstrously better than most of the cast, most of the characters are unplayable. this happens quite frequently in fighting games, although in brawl the scenario's somewhat unique - usually we discover something that makes them ridiculous but in this case, we didn't. snake, meta, and gaw were just better designed and it's so apparent it severely hurts anyone without a bunch of broken stuff to call their own.
 

Runawayfire

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
1,649
Location
Toronto
lol, obviosly Im gona get killed. I've never played any1 who can beat me except for my friend. Thats it just me n him, ppl who play for money better **** some1 who plays casually. Plus Im just 17 how good could I be right? I saw the vids.. the guys are SO sick, what Id like to know is, are you that good? or do you "pwn at Brawl" and dont play Melee cuz "its cheap and full of glitches"?
No, I was one of the most well known melee players in toronto and was also part of the top percentage skill wise. I also had one of the longest careeers in the city considering everything.

This is what the message of my original post was about, you don't know what you're talking about, so shut up.

Are we clear nubsauce?
 

Europhoria

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
1,476
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Ignore Run, he's a ******* to anyone new for no reason. >_> He doesn't realize if he wants the Smash (Melee or Brawl) community to grow then he can't take his PMS out on the new players.
 

Runawayfire

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2006
Messages
1,649
Location
Toronto
Thats odd, last time I checked I met and was nice to a million new people at grmo's tournament....
I'm also one of the people doing to the most to unite the brawl community.

Hmm.......

Edit: Wow 2 posts inbetween....
Lol I'm not that mean, its just pretty dumb to **** talk a game in favour of another one when you aren't good at either so how can you really comment on game mechanics cause what do you know?
 

Dragon_Hawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,133
Location
Toronto, Canada
NO MORE ANGRY ON THE INTERNET

i vote we do this all in person

with crazy glue

and bats

not the nocturnal flying mammal i mean long, blunted aluminum shafts although if you think a nocturnal mammal would fight better than an aluminum bat then sure go for it
 

Dragon_Hawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,133
Location
Toronto, Canada
Kirby is cool. I dunno, I think it's all about who you're used to. I do far better with Kirby than MK or G&W (both of whom I suck horribly with; Bug would agree with me on that lol)

Kirby is fun, especially if you're smart enough to make people walk into hammer

I think having some top tier mains is nice too though

you never know when you'll need to fight a snake or something else that ***** kirby

edit: kirby can suck up metaknight and use his tornado which makes that matchup sort of not as horrible. I think Kirby's aerials are mostly pretty good. His fair is nice especially; one thing I like to do is short hop at them and fair, then pull back out of grab range and see what they do, then use it to try and read them later on. I think his edgeguarding is decent. His recovery sucks unless you're above the stage, in which case it still isn't that good (especially if you're fighting zelda). Yeah, Kirby has potential, but let's not forget that he can't combo at all which really hurts. I mean yeah, d throw to u tilt to hammer can work if they don't do anything or can manipulate them to do that, but like...maybe uair chains. he's not exactly weak, but david's right in saying that his damage output sucks and can't kill to save his life. literally. if he could combo he would be good. if the other characters didn't **** him he might be good.
swallow is far too slow to hit a good metaknight with, swallow is retardedly slow and laggy in this version and the hitbox is crap because it's the same size only now only half of the hitbox swallows, the other half just drags you ever so slowly towards the swallow part of the hitbox so it's overwhelmingly useless

metaknight destroys kirby. there's nothing good about the matchup except maybe up+b out of shield to outprioritize meta's sloppier approaches but then when they start taking advantage of its lag then you run into problem. it's especially a problem when they can just shield the move and shield-cancel into whatever they want.

his fair is okay but still slow and weak and easily beaten by better moves like bairs. general rule of thumb vs kirbs is that if you can trade your aerial with anything he does BUT f-smash, hammer, or bair you're probably trading up so spam away.

fair would be awesome if it had more range (stupid stubby shoes) and did its damage in reverse; 7 / 5 / 4 so there'd be some punishment factor if you spammed better moves against it with terrible spacing (but it doesn't matter because if you trade you take a whole 4% and your better aerial probably did 13% or whatever).

alternatively we could just give him his fast drills from 64 back because he'd still suck but then he'd suck slightly less because he could hit good damge. he'd still have awful speed and movement but god he needs something. and not some novelty bullcrap like suicide kos because they took away his suicide throws and nerfed swallow hard, which was completely unnecessary because they didn't work against good people anyways.

although nobody will ever admit it, kirby didn't really get better in brawl. they just added enough other novelty characters that him sucking so much looks like less of a big deal by comparison.
 
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