Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Or he can just dash, shield and drop shield. That takes less time than firing a missile.

 

[Boney]

After 10 replies to the survey here are the current results (last post was with 6 replies).

As mentioned before 6 is 50:50 and each number above 6 is worth 5 in the opponent's ratio. So a 4 is 60:40 and a 9 is 65:35.

17 Bad MUs (>7)
20 Close MUs (5,7) (plus the ditto)
16 Good Mus (<5)

Missing from the survey, Lucario. I apparently just had a brain fart in the L's because I forgot Link earlier.


Worst MUs:
Fox
Sheik
Pikachu
Mario
Sonic
ZSS
Megaman
Rosalina
Falco
Yoshi

Best MUs:
Zelda
Palutena
Charizard
Bowser
WFT
Jigglypuff
Mii Swordsman
Mewtwo
Donkey Kong
Ganon

Most Controversial:
Megaman
Ness
Little Mac
Mii Gunner
Jigglypuff
ROB
Bowser
Toon Link
Link
Yoshi
Metaknight

Spoiler: Matchup Table

Character |Minimum– |Maximum– |Median– |Mean– |Standard Deviation–
Ganon | 1 | 6 | 2.5 | 2.88 | 1.45
Donkey Kong | 2 | 6 | 3.5 | 3.38 | 1.32
Mewtwo | 1 | 6 | 3.5 | 3.63 | 1.41
Mii Swordsman | 2 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 1.41
Jigglypuff | 1 | 6 | 5 | 4.14 | 1.73
WFT | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4.25 | 0.97
Bowser | 2 | 7 | 4 | 4.33 | 1.7
Palutena | 2 | 6 | 4 | 4.38 | 1.22
Charizard | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4.38 | 0.99
Zelda | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4.44 | 1.17
Ike | 2 | 6 | 5 | 4.63 | 1.41
Dedede | 3 | 7 | 4 | 4.67 | 1.49
Ryu | 3 | 7 | 4 | 4.71 | 1.48
Robin | 3 | 6 | 5 | 4.75 | 0.97
Bowser Jr | 3 | 8 | 4 | 4.78 | 1.4
Lucina | 4 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 1
Peach | 4 | 8 | 5 | 5.13 | 1.27
Luigi | 4 | 8 | 5 | 5.38 | 1.41
Little Mac | 3 | 8 | 5 | 5.5 | 1.87
Link | 3 | 7 | 6 | 5.5 | 1.66
Marth | 5 | 7 | 5 | 5.67 | 0.82
Pac-Man | 4 | 7 | 5 | 5.71 | 1.16
Shulk | 4 | 8 | 6 | 5.71 | 1.39
Mii Gunner | 4 | 9 | 5.5 | 5.83 | 1.77
Toon Link | 3 | 8 | 6 | 5.88 | 1.69
Duck Hunt | 5 | 7 | 6 | 5.88 | 0.78
Pit | 5 | 8 | 6 | 6 | 1.07
Lucas | 4 | 8 | 6 | 6 | 1.2
Ness | 4 | 8 | 7 | 6.11 | 1.91
Dark Pit | 5 | 8 | 6 | 6.13 | 0.93
Wario | 5 | 7 | 7 | 6.5 | 0.71
Dr. Mario | 4 | 8 | 7 | 6.5 | 1.58
ROB | 4 | 9 | 7.5 | 6.75 | 1.71
Villager | 6 | 8 | 6 | 6.75 | 0.97
Kirby | 6 | 8 | 7 | 6.88 | 0.78
Metaknight | 3 | 9 | 7 | 6.89 | 1.59
G&W | 6 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 0.93
Roy | 5 | 9 | 7 | 7 | 1.22
Mii Brawler | 4 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 1.55
Olimar | 5 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 1.07
Greninja | 5 | 9 | 8 | 7.38 | 1.22
Diddy | 4 | 9 | 8 | 7.44 | 1.42
Captain Falcon | 5 | 9 | 8 | 7.44 | 1.57
Yoshi | 6 | 11 | 7.5 | 7.63 | 1.65
Falco | 7 | 9 | 8 | 7.71 | 0.7
Rosalina | 6 | 10 | 7.5 | 7.75 | 1.39
Megaman | 4 | 10 | 8.5 | 8.13 | 2.03
ZSS | 7 | 9 | 8 | 8.22 | 0.63
Sonic | 7 | 11 | 8 | 8.63 | 1.22
Mario | 8 | 10 | 9 | 8.88 | 0.6
Sheik | 7 | 10 | 9 | 9.11 | 0.87
Pikachu | 6 | 10 | 9 | 9.11 | 1.2
Fox | 7 | 10 | 9 | 9.13 | 0.93

I suppose we could do like weeklies discussing the most controversial picks

 

[SpottedCerberus]

A MU spread for Charge Shot: the character
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:

I can't do the skype thing or the survey, if we're still doing that. This much was damn near impossible, because I'm on my phone and I have ****ty service. Won't have a computer for another week. But I have no competitive experience anyway, so my input isn't as valuable as most.

A couple comments:

Luigi: Not sure if we actually beat him. At worst, it's probably even. Maybe it's safer to stick with that for now. Personally, I'm kind of terrified of his up-b buff. It's much, much better now.

Zelda: Do we still beat her? Zair is a big deal, but her reflector is pretty effective, and she has a ton of kill power. I always thought it was kind of close, and I'm not sure how much the buffs change the MU.

Peach: I dunno about her. Just because people always say that she's secretly top-tier. But I think she loses a lot of MUs, including this one. I've never really played a good peach anyway.

Roy: I think we go even in theory, but I still don't like the MU. He's fast as hell and hits hard.

Donkey Kong: Do we beat him? I thought we were +1 or so pre-patch, but he's a lot scarier now.

 

[Scream]

Concerning MK @ DungeonMaster @ Xygonn @Depth_ @ KayJay @ Tonetta :

I play @Kweet quite often and it really is true: On Omega Samus does not stand a chance against MK. One Dash attack leads to either:
1. Upairs into death, you get 1 chance to guess DI correctly, then he has you in the middle and it is inescapable(For the DI guess you have to either DI down and away so he goes above you or away and up, if he is perfect you don't have a chance tho)
2. Footstool -> Dtilt > Dash Attack -> Upairs into Death, there is nothing you can do here

More Info on the DA: MK's DA has 3 hitboxes with 3 corresponding angles:
1. The first hi box sends you straight up -> get hit and you are dead
2. Slightly more horizontal -> If MK is perfect you are dead
3. With correct DI up and away you will live, he can still follow up most of the time but Up-Air is not possible

Kweet also says that Samus is by far the easiest character to do the up air combos on, because of her combination of weight and fall speed and hit stun.
His DA also has a stupid hitbox, nearly stuffing samus every move.

We both agree that Battlefield is Samus's best stage against MK, he will always ban it.

We do stand a chance on a good stage, as platforms can mess up his combos as well as footstools.
Therefore i put the MU at 30:70 MK Favor.

If you guys want video evidence i'll record some at the next bi-weekly in frankfurt. I think i'll meet him again there.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I've pulled off the combo many times now checking in training mode and in regular smash with the rage and staleness effects, up-air combos are practically in my blood now. MKs timing is slightly different but it's not a massive adjustment, I'm quite consistent, nearly perfect but I do fail at some low rate.
The very first dash hit has the least amount of hitstun and you can air-dodge after it unless the opponent is close to frame perfect so he has to land the dash late if you are at low % (similar to Samus combos).
You're saying DI up and away - but I think that's wrong - I find DI up and into him not only makes him struggle more for correctly angling his jump but also gives you the later hitboxes allowing for more opportunity to air-dodge.
Particularly up-B and the final up-air.
Yeah I would love to see some video evidence of struggling to escape a top MK player with perfect execution. I've even jumped out of repeated MK up-air on for-glory and jump comes out later than air-dodge by several frames at those low percents.

 

[Xygonn]

Concerning MK @ DungeonMaster @ Xygonn @Depth_ @ KayJay @ Tonetta :

I play @Kweet quite often and it really is true: On Omega Samus does not stand a chance against MK. One Dash attack leads to either:
1. Upairs into death, you get 1 chance to guess DI correctly, then he has you in the middle and it is inescapable(For the DI guess you have to either DI down and away so he goes above you or away and up, if he is perfect you don't have a chance tho)
2. Footstool -> Dtilt > Dash Attack -> Upairs into Death, there is nothing you can do here

More Info on the DA: MK's DA has 3 hitboxes with 3 corresponding angles:
1. The first hi box sends you straight up -> get hit and you are dead
2. Slightly more horizontal -> If MK is perfect you are dead
3. With correct DI up and away you will live, he can still follow up most of the time but Up-Air is not possible

Kweet also says that Samus is by far the easiest character to do the up air combos on, because of her combination of weight and fall speed and hit stun.
His DA also has a stupid hitbox, nearly stuffing samus every move.

We both agree that Battlefield is Samus's best stage against MK, he will always ban it.

We do stand a chance on a good stage, as platforms can mess up his combos as well as footstools.
Therefore i put the MU at 30:70 MK Favor.

If you guys want video evidence i'll record some at the next bi-weekly in frankfurt. I think i'll meet him again there.

Thanks for the info. MK is just kinda rare so most people don't see a lot of top level play. Since you are more experienced I would defer to this kind of judgement. Whats a good character to counter metaknight?

 

[Amadeus9]

Thanks for the info. MK is just kinda rare so most people don't see a lot of top level play. Since you are more experienced I would defer to this kind of judgement. Whats a good character to counter metaknight?

I can answer that. We struggle most against ZSS, Yoshi, Sonic, and Captain Falcon. ZSS and Sonic are the most hard.

 

[E.Lopez]

What are my options against a Ness who's good at hitting me with PK Fire which allows him to easily grab me (I'm either stuck in the flames or shielding it)?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Hold away and jump. It wont always work but it's a good option.

 

[DungeonMaster]

If you're caught really good in pk-fire, as in you don't expect to escape it, (i.e. Ness is too close) hold straight up and mash your jump button like mad. You will 90% of the time footstool him. You can "hear it" right here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3KGQEYaUt4#t=306
It's pretty funny, and massively frustrating.

 

[leiraD]

What are my options against a Ness who's good at hitting me with PK Fire which allows him to easily grab me (I'm either stuck in the flames or shielding it)?

First of all, power shiled that junk. Second, I don't know if this is the text book answer, but I try to DI down and away so I can get to the ground and walk away. Sometimes, if the ness is approaching for dash attack or grab, I'm also able to get a pivot grab or a pivot ftilt.

 

[E.Lopez]

Thanks guys!

@ DungeonMaster , haha, yes, that is pretty funny.

 

[Xygonn]

If you're caught really good in pk-fire, as in you don't expect to escape it, (i.e. Ness is too close) hold straight up and mash your jump button like mad. You will 90% of the time footstool him. You can "hear it" right here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3KGQEYaUt4#t=306
It's pretty funny, and massively frustrating.

that's amazing.

 

[Tonetta]

If you're caught really good in pk-fire, as in you don't expect to escape it, (i.e. Ness is too close) hold straight up and mash your jump button like mad. You will 90% of the time footstool him. You can "hear it" right here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3KGQEYaUt4#t=306
It's pretty funny, and massively frustrating.

This is cool and useful but it doesn't really work that well at lower percents.I often can get out of a pk fire at lower percents by holding down and away while spamming roll and this gets me out ~50% of the time.

 

[Afro Smash]

DI out and jump has always worked best for me, that does leave you fairly vulnerable to land tho

 

[Boney]

Yeah a frontal pk fire is 100% escapable by diing up and away while mashing jump. When it hits you with it while he's airborne it gets a little trickier. You can get the footstool if he goes for the grab, but if he goes for the fsmash you're screwed. I wonder if screw attack might help in that situation.c

 

[ZXTPrime]

Has anyone else experienced Rosa+Luma falling out of well targeted Up B due to lightness/Luma Hitstun...?

 

[JAZZ_]

Any tips you guys have on fighting a marth/Lucina? My friend mains the two and our battles go 50/50. It would be nice to have a leg up in case I'm missing a strategy to fight these sword clad warriors.

Also any tips against a good falco? FG gave me a couple nasty falco mains making my FG life super frustrating.

 

[Xygonn]

Has anyone else experienced Rosa+Luma falling out of well targeted Up B due to lightness/Luma Hitstun...?

Yes. Often this is in our favor and results in Rosa death from a top platform.

Also any tips against a good falco? FG gave me a couple nasty falco mains making my FG life super frustrating.

Zair is actually longer than Falco's down b. This is great practice for spacing zair.

 

[Scream]

Yes. Often this is in our favor and results in Rosa death from a top platform.



Zair is actually longer than Falco's down b. This is great practice for spacing zair.

It goes both ways.
While i did KO her earlier in some instances she fell out and killed me with an Upair.

 

[Vyrnx]

Why do people always do the backwards flip animation before zair? Is it just cuz her hurt box is smaller?

 

[leiraD]

Why do people always do the backwards flip animation before zair? Is it just cuz her hurt box is smaller?

I do it because it allows me to retreat while also putting out a hit box and popping on some damage.

 

[KayJay]

Why do people always do the backwards flip animation before zair? Is it just cuz her hurt box is smaller?

Smaller Hurtbox.
No reason not to do it. You can jump forward with the backwards jump animation.

 

[Vyrnx]

Smaller Hurtbox.
No reason not to do it. You can jump forward with the backwards jump animation.

I didn't know the last part, thanks

 

[JAZZ_]

Why do people always do the backwards flip animation before zair? Is it just cuz her hurt box is smaller?

plus it makes you look awesome, and for some reason it helps with accuracy when hitting grounded smaller opponents

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Smaller Hurtbox.
No reason not to do it. You can jump forward with the backwards jump animation.

You can? How?

 

[Vyrnx]

I can't recover vs Villager's bowling ball. If I try to tether, they have a lloid ready, or they hit me with the bowling ball before I ledge snap. If I get stuck having to recover low then I can't really do anything. Any advice?

 

[Tonetta]

I can't recover vs Villager's bowling ball. If I try to tether, they have a lloid ready, or they hit me with the bowling ball before I ledge snap. If I get stuck having to recover low then I can't really do anything. Any advice?

Time upb to have the invulnerability frames cover when the bowling ball would drop.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Does anybody here has some tips against a good defensive Jiggly? Srsly, that pink Puff ball is really hard to hit. My Anti air options get dodged everytime, and my projectiles are easily dodged too.

 

[Hark17ball]

@ Douglas Jay Ganon

Im no expert. But puff has to approach YOU. Walling her out with a mix of Home/Super missiles, zair, fair and uair while always holding my CS is how I play them. It can be a long drawn out fight, but don't get to aggressive as a laggy move will get you shield grabbed or rested. I always focus to annoy them by being patient.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

zair.

THAT'S IT! How could I not think of that! The rest of moves just didn't have enough utility vs Jiggly.

Thanks!

 

[Xygonn]

I can't recover vs Villager's bowling ball. If I try to tether, they have a lloid ready, or they hit me with the bowling ball before I ledge snap. If I get stuck having to recover low then I can't really do anything. Any advice?

You'll magnet the ledge if you upb outside of bowling ball range. Also you can cover your recovery with homing missile.

 

[MegaRiff]

I can't recover vs Villager's bowling ball. If I try to tether, they have a lloid ready, or they hit me with the bowling ball before I ledge snap. If I get stuck having to recover low then I can't really do anything. Any advice?

I'm not a competitive player by any means, but I've had success with tether if the stage has no wall. You'll end up underneath the stage as the ball falls behind you because of the momentum of the swing that tether provides. Hope that makes sense.
I've also had success, spacing my up b and having the ball just miss me while I catch villager with the last hits of my up b.

Edit: You can also use bombs to stall and juke.

 

[Xeze]

How does the MU against Mr. Game and Watch look like?

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ leiraD is the expert on the G&W matchup, I think he took out GimR at CEO, correct me if I'm wrong.

Also vs. Villager bowling ball and recovering low - save your jump until you are below stage level, as you jump spit out homing missile jumping to almost level yourself out. One of homing missile's rare useful instances.

 

[leiraD]

G&W is kind of a polarized match-up. If he kills you early with full bucket (full charge shot bucket kills @ 0%) on 9 hammer, then obviously you're in trouble, but I think the matchup is still in Samus' favor.

 

[Xygonn]

How does the MU against Mr. Game and Watch look like?

G&W is kind of a polarized match-up. If he kills you early with full bucket (full charge shot bucket kills @ 0%) on 9 hammer, then obviously you're in trouble, but I think the matchup is still in Samus' favor.

It rated between even and slight advantage to G&W in the poll. I can explain my ranking of 40:60.

1) Bucket is the first or second best anti-CS tool in the game. That it doesn't absorb missiles I would say is even in G&W's benefit because missiles cannot be used to bait. (Villager's pocket is also super high tier)
2) Bucket can absorb bomb explosion, reducing one of our spacing tools' viability.
3) The wind box on uair will carry you up if you like to use bomb to dodge aerial attacks (which I do pretty often since it is harder to punish on read than an airdodge)
4) Very good usmash with invulnerability. We die faster out the top and can't threaten from above even with a very well spaced dair, this forces us to the ledge a lot.
5) Sweet spot on dsmash also kills vertically and pretty early. If ever there was a time to break your damn roll habbit, it is against G&W.
6) Despite fairly linear recovery upb is extremely difficult to gimp.
7) Pretty good grab with good follow ups

It's not heavily in G&W's favor, but when I have faced a good one, I'm really stuck modifying my playstyle a lot.

 

[Xeze]

Thank you both for the input. Can't G&W absorb the missiles' explosion?
G&W is one of my tough matchups as Mario, so I though maybe Samus could handle him. I have to try it out. Baiting bucket with Charge Shot seems interesting as it gives me a almost free punish.

 

[Scream]

Here is some MK footage: Click me (For the really impatient: it starts around 2:20)

Please keep in mind that those are friendlies/training and by no means serious play. We were both messing around with new strategies and laughing it up. Also of course the whiffed Fsmash and the Uncancelled Fair were big mistakes/Missd inputs, but this is just for show remember.

As you can see in the video even with good DI mixup Samus dies from 0% if he has his combos down.

Now for the good thing, the next day in Frankfurt we meet in bracket and i actually managed to take him out 2:0(!!!), he made an incredible loosers run though and ended up placing 4th so gratz to him.

The Strategie: CAMP THE LEDGE HARD. As long as your techs are on point he has to respect you a lot or he will get in a lot of trouble contesting you. Use platform to your advantage to charge CS. Mix it up at the ledge and wait for your time to strike. Unfortunately i dont have the tournament footage available
Another important point: If he gets you right at the ledge with a DA you have to DI hard outwards so he will die as well if he decides to UP-B after the upairs offstage. That also means that once you are in the lead it is hard for him to get a honest win.

Just a quick writeup, there'll be more as we will meet again on the 22th in Stuttgart.

Unfortunately i forgot to capture the DA > Footstool > Dtilt > DA > Death Combo, will do next time!

 

[Xygonn]

Thank you both for the input. Can't G&W absorb the missiles' explosion?
G&W is one of my tough matchups as Mario, so I though maybe Samus could handle him. I have to try it out. Baiting bucket with Charge Shot seems interesting as it gives me a almost free punish.

Missiles are special. You'd think the bucket works but it doesn't.