Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[leiraD]

Thank you both for the input. Can't G&W absorb the missiles' explosion?
G&W is one of my tough matchups as Mario, so I though maybe Samus could handle him. I have to try it out. Baiting bucket with Charge Shot seems interesting as it gives me a almost free punish.

The more satisfying phenomenon is after G&W does eventually bucket a charge shot, but then refuses to bucket subsequent charge shots for fear of losing the one they have. Then they freeze up and end up eating lots of those big blue balls.

 

[Xeze]

Good point! If they have the full bucket, Samus just has to keep her safe distance with Missiles and Z-air.

 

[Xygonn]

Good point! If they have the full bucket, Samus just has to keep her safe distance with Missiles and Z-air.

Can't zair a ducking GW. Which brings me to another point. GW can duck SM, CS to about half charge, fsmash (not angled), ftilt (not angled), jab1, and grab (plus more, I'm sure I'm forgetting).

 

[leiraD]

Can't zair a ducking GW. Which brings me to another point. GW can duck SM, CS to about half charge, fsmash (not angled), ftilt (not angled), jab1, and grab (plus more, I'm sure I'm forgetting).

Yeah, zair isn't that reliable a tool against G&W because of crouch.

 

[Wald0]

What's a good secondary for Samus? (i'm guessing pikachu)

 

[Hark17ball]

What's a good secondary for Samus? (i'm guessing pikachu)

Pikachu, Luigi, or ZSS. They all cover her bad matchups quite well.

 

[Wald0]

Pikachu, Luigi, or ZSS. They all cover her bad matchups quite well.

Lol ZSS covers Samus that's funny (any thoughts on Mewtwo?)

 

[Afro Smash]

Bruh how do we beat Greninja? If no one knows then whats a good secondary to beat him

• 6th best run speed and air speed and huge jumps and small frame means 0 Zair zoning
• Jab Jab mix ups, d throw, d tilt all pop us up, fast enough to cover bomb mix ups, not safe to land with up air
• Waits at roll distance, covers regular get up with dash grab, jumping from ledge puts you in the air again
• Shuriken pressure limits charge time

 

[White_Pointer]

For me:

Not enough data: I don't have enough data to categorically say one way or the other how the matchup plays out.
Good: Matchups that Samus has an advantage in.
Even: Matchups that are at worst 50/50 - Samus has an equal chance as her opponent to win.
Bad: Matchups that Samus will lose most of the time, unless you majorly outplay your opponent. These are not impossible but are a big struggle. May rely on the opponent being unfamiliar with the matchup.
Ugly: Matchups that I believe Samus will lose 100% of the time given 2 players of equal skill.

---------------------

Not enough data:

Peach, Bowser Jr, Meta Knight, Ryu, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter

Good:

Bowser, Charizard

Even:

Luigi, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Little Mac, Ganondorf, Palutena, Marth, Ike, Robin, King Dedede, Greninja, Shulk, Lucina, Mega Man

Bad:

Diddy Kong, Link, Zelda, Sheik, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Pit, Kirby, Pikachu, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Ness, Captain Falcon, Wii Fit Trainer, Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucas, Roy, Mii Brawler

Ugly:

Mario, Rosalina & Luma, Wario, Mr Game & Watch, Duck Hunt Duo, Fox, Falco, R.O.B., Villager, Olimar, Pac-Man, Sonic, Mewtwo

---------------------

 

[Scream]

For me:

Not enough data: I don't have enough data to categorically say one way or the other how the matchup plays out.
Good: Matchups that Samus has an advantage in.
Even: Matchups that are at worst 50/50 - Samus has an equal chance as her opponent to win.
Bad: Matchups that Samus will lose most of the time, unless you majorly outplay your opponent. These are not impossible but are a big struggle. May rely on the opponent being unfamiliar with the matchup.
Ugly: Matchups that I believe Samus will lose 100% of the time given 2 players of equal skill.

---------------------

Not enough data:

Peach, Bowser Jr, Meta Knight, Ryu, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter

Good:

Bowser, Charizard

Even:

Luigi, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Little Mac, Ganondorf, Palutena, Marth, Ike, Robin, King Dedede, Greninja, Shulk, Lucina, Mega Man

Bad:

Diddy Kong, Link, Zelda, Sheik, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Pit, Kirby, Pikachu, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Ness, Captain Falcon, Wii Fit Trainer, Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucas, Roy, Mii Brawler

Ugly:

Mario, Rosalina & Luma, Wario, Mr Game & Watch, Duck Hunt Duo, Fox, Falco, R.O.B., Villager, Olimar, Pac-Man, Sonic, Mewtwo

---------------------

Seriously wtf?

If you are going to go so far out of line then please have some form of justification.
I have marked the ones in question in red.
Note that i only colored the worst ones, that does not mean that i am d'accord with the rest.

Also please do tell if you have any offline experience. If you do not then i at least know that i can safely ignore your opinion.

 

[White_Pointer]

Seriously wtf?

If you are going to go so far out of line then please have some form of justification.
I have marked the ones in question in red.
Note that i only colored the worst ones, that does not mean that i am d'accord with the rest.

Also please do tell if you have any offline experience. If you do not then i at least know that i can safely ignore your opinion.

Yes, I do have offline experience. And this is only my opinion, there's no need to flip out. You'll notice I used the words "I believe" and "For me" in the post. I'm happy to explain why I personally placed certain characters where I did.

For the record, I didn't state it but the order I placed the characters in underneath each category is simply select screen order (So I do not think the Mii Brawler matchup is worse the Diddy for example).

For the ones you pointed out:

Zelda - This one is probably on the brink of being even, but you can't really force her to approach you and she can deal with Samus' zoning game pretty well.
Toon Link - Uphill battle to get past the projectile game. Samus can't compete too well with it and bombs clank with fully charged shots.
Lucario - Has better normals overall, gets very scary with rage + aura.
Jigglypuff - Samus can't compete with her aerial mobility.
Lucas - Much the same reasons as Ness...can reflect projectiles, absorb the charge shot and he's short.
Roy - Another one that's probably on the brink of being even. Might need some more matchup experience.
Wario - Samus can't seem to deal with the bike or Wario's overall aerial mobility.
Mr Game & Watch - Bucket charge shots and his small profile. Many Samus normals and specials miss him, especially if he ducks.
Duck Hunt Duo - Clay pigeon and gunman both clank with charge shot, and the can also blocks it (though the can is sent in the other direction). He zones much better than Samus and Samus has a hell of a time trying to break his wall.
Falco - He's not as fast as Fox but the matchup is still not in Samus' favour for many of the same reasons. His reflector pushes out far enough to interrupt your grab unless you space 100% perfectly.
R.O.B. - He's faster with better aerial mobility and a superior projectile game. Fully charged shot flat out loses to gyro.
Villager - I'm starting to lean more towards this one being in the "bad" group rather than the "ugly" group but it's still a huge uphill battle. Villager zones much better, has better kill options, can pocket the charge shot and is short.
Pac-Man - Pretty much all of his neutral b options clank with charge shot.
Sonic - Too fast for Samus to reliably deal with and has superior frame data.
Mewtwo - Confusion neutralises both Samus' zoning options and approach options, shadow ball is transcendent unlike the charge shot. Mewtwo is bad, no question...contender for the worst character in the game, but this is one matchup where he has the advantage.

 

[Tonetta]

White Pointer - you might want to consider spending more time with the character (or less, if you think that she has this many bad mu's)

 

[Xygonn]

Yes, I do have offline experience. And this is only my opinion, there's no need to flip out. You'll notice I used the words "I believe" and "For me" in the post. I'm happy to explain why I personally placed certain characters where I did.

For the record, I didn't state it but the order I placed the characters in underneath each category is simply select screen order (So I do not think the Mii Brawler matchup is worse the Diddy for example).

For the ones you pointed out:

Zelda - This one is probably on the brink of being even, but you can't really force her to approach you and she can deal with Samus' zoning game pretty well.
Toon Link - Uphill battle to get past the projectile game. Samus can't compete too well with it and bombs clank with fully charged shots.
Lucario - Has better normals overall, gets very scary with rage + aura.
Jigglypuff - Samus can't compete with her aerial mobility.
Lucas - Much the same reasons as Ness...can reflect projectiles, absorb the charge shot and he's short.
Roy - Another one that's probably on the brink of being even. Might need some more matchup experience.
Wario - Samus can't seem to deal with the bike or Wario's overall aerial mobility.
Mr Game & Watch - Bucket charge shots and his small profile. Many Samus normals and specials miss him, especially if he ducks.
Duck Hunt Duo - Clay pigeon and gunman both clank with charge shot, and the can also blocks it (though the can is sent in the other direction). He zones much better than Samus and Samus has a hell of a time trying to break his wall.
Falco - He's not as fast as Fox but the matchup is still not in Samus' favour for many of the same reasons. His reflector pushes out far enough to interrupt your grab unless you space 100% perfectly.
R.O.B. - He's faster with better aerial mobility and a superior projectile game. Fully charged shot flat out loses to gyro.
Villager - I'm starting to lean more towards this one being in the "bad" group rather than the "ugly" group but it's still a huge uphill battle. Villager zones much better, has better kill options, can pocket the charge shot and is short.
Pac-Man - Pretty much all of his neutral b options clank with charge shot.
Sonic - Too fast for Samus to reliably deal with and has superior frame data.
Mewtwo - Confusion neutralises both Samus' zoning options and approach options, shadow ball is transcendent unlike the charge shot. Mewtwo is bad, no question...contender for the worst character in the game, but this is one matchup where he has the advantage.

How often would you say you use zair?

 

[leiraD]

How often would you say you use zair?

The answer should be "often," lol.

 

[DungeonMaster]

An update on the metaknight vs. Samus auto-kill strings. Last evening I sparred against on glory a psycho metaknight who knew all his combos, great timing, great offensive DI and we had a great connection.
I could NOT escape the up-air combos, mashing AD as hard as I could. I COULD survive the up-B. The DI was hard AWAY from the stage and down. I caught it on video now, will post shortly.
I COULD escape the initial dash starter with (smash) DI hard away and up. The up-air does not link correctly, you get a sourspot that sends you further away rather than the slight vertical lift.

In fact I feel like I fought nothing but psychopaths last night. I was 50/50 all night long with @#%%^ jiggly puff rest true combos, yoshi's abusing #$% nair priority and crazy #$% strings of death. Even zelda's and peach's were fighting like demons.

 

[Xygonn]

The answer should be "often," lol.

Well, a lot of the MU's @ White_Pointer has a hard time approaching or that they block our zoning options. Specifically Zelda and Mewtwo are zair bait.

Take this quote for example:

"Mewtwo - Confusion neutralises both Samus' zoning options and approach options, shadow ball is transcendent unlike the charge shot. Mewtwo is bad, no question...contender for the worst character in the game, but this is one matchup where he has the advantage."

Zair is our best zoning option. Confusion doesn't neutralize it. Shadow ball isn't transcendent either. I'm not saying we can't learns something from everyone in the MU thread, especially learning things that work well in bad MUs. However, the post above seems to be missing some basic stuff.

 

[Xygonn]

An update on the metaknight vs. Samus auto-kill strings. Last evening I sparred against on glory a psycho metaknight who knew all his combos, great timing, great offensive DI and we had a great connection.
I could NOT escape the up-air combos, mashing AD as hard as I could. I COULD survive the up-B. The DI was hard AWAY from the stage and down. I caught it on video now, will post shortly.
I COULD escape the initial dash starter with (smash) DI hard away and down. The up-air does not link correctly, you get a sourspot that sends you further away rather than the slight vertical lift.

In fact I feel like I fought nothing but psychopaths last night. I was 50/50 all night long with @#%%^ jiggly puff rest true combos, yoshi's abusing #$% nair priority and crazy #$% strings of death. Even zelda's and peach's were fighting like demons.

It's weird, after talking about the MK MU in this thread it's like I see good ones all the time now. MK is the death of us. I just switch after the first match.

 

[leiraD]

Well, a lot of the MU's @ White_Pointer has a hard time approaching or that they block our zoning options. Specifically Zelda and Mewtwo are zair bait.

Take this quote for example:

"Mewtwo - Confusion neutralises both Samus' zoning options and approach options, shadow ball is transcendent unlike the charge shot. Mewtwo is bad, no question...contender for the worst character in the game, but this is one matchup where he has the advantage."

Zair is our best zoning option. Confusion doesn't neutralize it. Shadow ball isn't transcendent either. I'm not saying we can't learns something from everyone in the MU thread, especially learning things that work well in bad MUs. However, the post above seems to be missing some basic stuff.

Yeah, for a lot of the smaller members of the cast, zair is almost irrelevant except to deny aerial approach options, so there are definitely times when its less useful.

 

[White_Pointer]

White Pointer - you might want to consider spending more time with the character (or less, if you think that she has this many bad mu's)

I'm not saying most of the matchups are impossible, but many of them are an uphill struggle regardless

How often would you say you use zair?

I use it reasonably often, except against the shorter characters as it tends to miss them most of the time (Ness, Lucas, Pikachu, G&W, etc). Probably not as much as I should against other characters though.

Well, a lot of the MU's @ White_Pointer has a hard time approaching or that they block our zoning options. Specifically Zelda and Mewtwo are zair bait.

I do use zair in those MU's as much as I can, the problem is it only tacks on damage and doesn't KO. In most cases I have no issues actually applying damage, it's getting that KO move in.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Here's the quick vid on DI vs. Metaknight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kbC-v6UOrM
Description has the info in it, but basically once it's locked in don't hold up and away, hold down and away and you don't go to heaven.
Also next clip has same guy missing the dash follow up because of upwards and away DI of the initial hit.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Here's the quick vid on DI vs. Metaknight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kbC-v6UOrM
Description has the info in it, but basically once it's locked in don't hold up and away, hold down and away and you don't go to heaven.
Also next clip has same guy missing the dash follow up because of upwards and away DI of the initial hit.

Does DI ing down works with every character? Btw, that music selection was perfect. Cool video.

 

[leiraD]

Does DI ing down works with every character? Btw, that music selection was perfect. Cool video.

Not always. It depends on the move you're being hit by.

 

[warionumbah2]

Funny cuz his video is false.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Funny cuz his video is false.

That's CLEAR CUT video evidence. It cannot be me more clear cut. Those are almost identical ranges, and I survive with higher rage on meta and higher damage.

What would satisfy you? Do I have to go over to your house and use a controller in front of you?

 

[warionumbah2]

That's CLEAR CUT video evidence. It cannot be me more clear cut. Those are almost identical ranges, and I survive with higher rage on meta and higher damage.

What would satisfy you? Do I have to go over to your house and use a controller in front of you?

The video is false plain and simple. You're playing on an omega stage with a slightly higher ceiling(tested myself), the 1st time you died he had 60% rage 2nd time where you lived he had no rage. Once again larger vertical blastzone than FD.

3rd game he DA at the wrong percent and hit with the DA that's easier to DI, the MK doesn't even know the percents yet you're calling him a competent player praising him to validate your point. Check this, Samus is so free to uair combo that even the scrubbiest MKs can get it by spamming DA over and over until she reaches something like 30%.

Are the other videos on competitive legal stages or is it yet another FG video where you're playing on other Omega stages? In most TOs omega variants aren't allowed outside the gentleman rule, so this isn't helping people one bit. If you guys are really struggling against MK go BF at least he won't cheese you out at the start of the match.

 

[leiraD]

The video is false plain and simple. You're playing on an omega stage with a slightly higher ceiling(tested myself), the 1st time you died he had 60% rage 2nd time where you lived he had no rage. Once again larger vertical blastzone than FD.

3rd game he DA at the wrong percent and hit with the DA that's easier to DI, the MK doesn't even know the percents yet you're calling him a competent player praising him to validate your point. Check this, Samus is so free to uair combo that even the scrubbiest MKs can get it by spamming DA over and over until she reaches something like 30%.

Are the other videos on competitive legal stages or is it yet another FG video where you're playing on other Omega stages? In most TOs omega variants aren't allowed outside the gentleman rule, so this isn't helping people one bit. If you guys are really struggling against MK go BF at least he won't cheese you out at the start of the match.

Interesting.... Rudely stated towards someone who's trying to be helpful (sorry about that @ DungeonMaster ), but interesting nonetheless. Maybe you could do a video demonstrating the scenarios warionumbah2 discussed.

As a side note, @ warionumbah2 , I live in FL, and our region has never placed any sort of ruling against omega stages that I'm aware of, even at larger events like CEO or Paragon Orlando... Just FYI...

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ warionumbah2 Stop saying the video is false, because it's just video. It's not like I doctored it.
What you're saying is the kill combo has a tiny range of applicability and only on specific stages. I played a long set, I assure you that this guy who was trying the combo repeatedly, visibly fishing for it as in my follow up video, failed. It never worked again. I can show you videos and you can dispute them till we are both blue in the face.
Do you want to test online vs. me?

 

[warionumbah2]

Interesting.... Rudely stated towards someone who's trying to be helpful (sorry about that @ DungeonMaster ), but interesting nonetheless. Maybe you could do a video demonstrating the scenarios warionumbah2 discussed.

As a side note, @ warionumbah2 , I live in FL, and our region has never placed any sort of ruling against omega stages that I'm aware of, even at larger events like CEO or Paragon Orlando... Just FYI...

Sorrynotsorry for being rude but i hate false info, tbh no MK user should care because you guys are being fed poor info more power to us. But i don't like that and certain MKs also dislike that.

Thanks for the info, however at regional or nationals these stages won't appear often if at all. And thats mostly what people care about, how well does your character do at the big events. You guys should use BF if you face a MK, i don't know how well Samus does on that stage but its better than dying early. Take the +30% and outplay the MK.

@ warionumbah2 Stop saying the video is false, because it's just video. It's not like I doctored it.
What you're saying is the kill combo has a tiny range of applicability and only on specific stages. I played a long set, I assure you that this guy who was trying the combo repeatedly, visibly fishing for it as in my follow up video, failed. It never worked again. I can show you videos and you can dispute them till we are both blue in the face.
Do you want to test online vs. me?

Oh the percents where Samus dies is juicy, but you don't need to know that. As i said this MK isn't competent at all, you're clearly better than him. He doesn't know the percents its obvious stop overrating a random FG player to support your claim.

My wifi is terrible especially against anyone u=outside EU, im also busy with college work as of now since Summer is over.

Just wanted to lay it down, you can carry on talking about uair combo'd if false info is being posted i won't say anything. Should've left it all to sink into you guys.

 

[Afro Smash]

Sorrynotsorry for being rude but i hate false info, tbh no MK user should care because you guys are being fed poor info more power to us. But i don't like that and certain MKs also dislike that.

Thanks for the info, however at regional or nationals these stages won't appear often if at all. And thats mostly what people care about, how well does your character do at the big events. You guys should use BF if you face a MK, i don't know how well Samus does on that stage but its better than dying early. Take the +30% and outplay the MK.



Oh the percents where Samus dies is juicy, but you don't need to know that. As i said this MK isn't competent at all, you're clearly better than him. He doesn't know the percents its obvious stop overrating a random FG player to support your claim.

My wifi is terrible especially against anyone u=outside EU, im also busy with college work as of now since Summer is over.

Just wanted to lay it down, you can carry on talking about uair combo'd if false info is being posted i won't say anything. Should've left it all to sink into you guys.

Why you so mad tho

 

[DungeonMaster]

Sorrynotsorry for being rude but i hate false info, tbh no MK user should care because you guys are being fed poor info more power to us. But i don't like that and certain MKs also dislike that.

I hate false info too, and I don't want to be spreading it. I legitimately don't think this is false info. I was surviving, and I've offered you the chance to convince me over wifi that I'm wrong. I'm in Canada just north of your location.
A rebuttal video with proof is also cool.

That MK was not garbage, I mean he pulled off the combo, repeatedly twice in the same set and in the 2nd set he @#$% spot dodges a close range CS at 1:43 on reaction like a computer. Ok he's not the best MK in the world but I'm not the best Samus either.
That spot dodge pissed me off. Man that pissed me off.

 

[Tonetta]

@ warionumbah2 how many samus players have you fought that you would say had good di? I'm willing to wager 0, since I know for a fact you can get out of shuttle loop with proper di.

 

[Wald0]

Hey check out this Samus (Depth) I was surprised that he won against such a MU (Ness) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSptfdchICg I guess the MU is decent if you win the zoning game. Though I'd like a second opinion.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Very nice to see @ Depth_ play in tournament! Good show overall, I watched the other vids too. Characteristic stage cancelled f-air.
@ Wald0 some of us don't feel the Ness matchup is that bad. I personally don't mind Ness much at all. When they get high in damage they start to use absorber a lot and I super-missile -> CS kill combo them. Even though he has a lot of disjoints and is not easily comboed his short little limbs are quite relevant to the matchup. Sakurai keeps buffing him though... Depth_ also knows the MU really well, he wrote a long section in the tournament results.

 

[leiraD]

Yeah, @ Depth_ 's play was looking so good. He was doing grounded b-reverals too, which was totally catching me off guard because I don't think I've ever seen a samus use that.

 

[Wald0]

Any ideas on recovering under the stage? I've been doing to not get edge guarded so bad though I wonder if it will be useful against good players.

 

[Hark17ball]

@ Depth_ fantastic play man. Such sweet movements had me in awe.

 

[Depth_]

Ayyy. Thanks guys! Samus has always been a character that prioritizes on her grounded normals and b moves instead of aerials. Ness should lose grounded fights against most characters. His payout starts when he's grounded and getting grabs. We can space and condition him pretty well with our long limbs. Perfect pivots just put icing on the cake. It's something I think we all should learn to do, for f-smash especially. PP puts just enough distance between you and your opponent for a tipper.

Also, we can see that Ness has some crazy pushback on back air and up air. It's nothing that D-tilt oos can't handle.

 

[MOM Samus]

Wow, I should have thought of that! Uair is wonderful indeed, I will be sure to use it next time.

Don't forget a fast fall'd U-air beats Falcon's recovefry.

 

[MOM Samus]

Wario clearly doesn't like Samus users.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Hey Samus Mains do you think Pac is one of your worst MUs? If not how about giving your input to one of the people that do
http://smashboards.com/threads/best-matchups.417834/