Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Well that’s Smash 4’s top tiers for you, they don’t have a learning curve, not even Rosalina’s learning curve is high IMO, she’s safe on shield and Luma eats everything. Literally her entire learning curve is finding out how far Luma Shot will send the Luma with each charge level. Gotta hate top tiers!

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

My post disappeared…odd…
EDIT: Well never mind, Smashboards glitches, as soon as I posted this, my last post appeared.

 

[Vyrnx]

Spammy Samus' lose, I hate falcons though, and 90% of fg'ers I see are falcon. I find spammy Zamus' more annoying though, not because they beat me, because they don't, but because they think a+b+ repeat = easy win. They don't adapt and its a shame that a super technical character becomes super brain dead when the suit comes off. :[ I should have her as a secondary, but out of principle I don't.

Zair and pivot ftilt are really good vs Falcon. Also since it's FG and you're on an Omega stage, there are some really cool things Samus can do to Falcon since he has trouble landing. Dthrow-->uair-->uair-->up-b, land, wait for him to fall, pivot grab, dthrow-->uair-->fair, land, wait for him to fall, pivot grab, dthrow-->fair, etc etc. If Falcon is above you without a jump, don't go up and try to uair, usmash, whatever, just wait and pivot grab him and there's very little he can do. If he's forced to the ledge that's good because Samus has so many things she can do to opponents stuck on the ledge and she has total stage control. Obv we edge guard him really hard too. Samus's advantage state vs Falcon is far more gruesome than Falcon's advantage state vs Samus, that is to say, Samus's advantage state in this MU is really gruesome and when the opportunity arises press it really hard.

His approach game is linear, but he has to approach and all FG Falcons are super rush down which helps us IMO. For ones who run and jump, use utilt (perfect pivot it if you want) or nair. For ones who run and stay grounded just pivot ftilt, dtilt, zair. Don't use grab in the neutral and limit missile usage. Sure, he can't do anything about the missile, but he can avoid it with shield/jump and close space which puts Samus in kind of a bad situation. Just use zair instead. If you're on the opposite side of the stage ofc use missiles.

If you find yourself in midrange resist the urge to use a defensive option like shield, roll, shad. Anything will be punished. Midrange is Samus's range and she really shines here against Falcon. I have a habit to shield when I happen to end up in midrange, so that's why I mentioned it.

 

[Wald0]

Just a random question...is it safe to up-b OoS when Sonic spin dashes through our shield (and jumps fair or whatever)?

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Just a random question...is it safe to up-b OoS when Sonic spin dashes through our shield (and jumps fair or whatever)?

Unless you are pretty much frame perfect, you will miss. And you have to jump out of shield before you up b. And even if you pull it off, his momentum make it so that he only gets hit by the first or first few hits of up b.

 

[Wald0]

Unless you are pretty much frame perfect, you will miss. And you have to jump out of shield before you up b. And even if you pull it off, his momentum make it so that he only gets hit by the first or first few hits of up b.

I thought it would interrupt his side b, thanks anyway! Didn't know that Sonic can just get out of up-b because of momentum unless he's DI-ing a certain way

 

[MOM Samus]

Ryu is really good on Samus. Fought a really good one yesterday and hardly won.

 

[JAZZ_]

Ryu is really good on Samus. Fought a really good one yesterday and hardly won.

Yea this match up maybe needs re-examined now that people have started playing Ryu well. His hurricane kick can eat projectiles and keep going. He has deceptive range and speed. And he can combo us insanely well. To top it off he can cancel focus punch for more aeiral mobility and soak in a CS with it. So he can deal with the CS then quickly close in. Ryu is one of my more frustrating matchups but at least these Ryu guys have skill.

 

[MOM Samus]

Yea this match up maybe needs re-examined now that people have started playing Ryu well. His hurricane kick can eat projectiles and keep going. He has deceptive range and speed. And he can combo us insanely well. To top it off he can cancel focus punch for more aeiral mobility and soak in a CS with it. So he can deal with the CS then quickly close in. Ryu is one of my more frustrating matchups but at least these Ryu guys have skill.

The dude killed me at 35% with max rage from a shield break (I jumped out of shield, so I didn't care that much). Focus Attack > Strong Up Tilt > Strong Shoryuken. Gone at 35%… Then I return the favor by killing him at 10%.

I'm not even including Mario in Samus's hardest MUs anymore because I've learned how to play against even some of the better ones. Samus's main bad MUs are Rosa, Ryu, Olimar, and probably someone else really bad.

Rosa because she can easily gimp your recovery, and now breaks shields. Luma east up all projectiles, plus reflector that still lasts while the animation is over. @.@

Ryu, I just explained. Once you're at 80%, all he really has to do is camp around and look for an opening with a Weak Up Tilt > Strong Shoryuken. That and he has very high shield stun, but we don't aside from sweetspot B-air.

Olimar: You really can't touch good Olimar mains. Villager is easier to deal with. I would also say Diddy because I fought a ZeRo level diddy on FG. This guy was an alt with a fake NNID, and he was insanely good with Diddy. Probably would've won the match, but (please don't laugh) I forgot Diddy had a spike. I wasn't worrying about that option at the moment.

 

[Xygonn]

The dude killed me at 35% with max rage from a shield break (I jumped out of shield, so I didn't care that much). Focus Attack > Strong Up Tilt > Strong Shoryuken. Gone at 35%… Then I return the favor by killing him at 10%.

I'm not even including Mario in Samus's hardest MUs anymore because I've learned how to play against even some of the better ones. Samus's main bad MUs are Rosa, Ryu, Olimar, and probably someone else really bad.

Rosa because she can easily gimp your recovery, and now breaks shields. Luma east up all projectiles, plus reflector that still lasts while the animation is over. @.@

Ryu, I just explained. Once you're at 80%, all he really has to do is camp around and look for an opening with a Weak Up Tilt > Strong Shoryuken. That and he has very high shield stun, but we don't aside from sweetspot B-air.

Olimar: You really can't touch good Olimar mains. Villager is easier to deal with. I would also say Diddy because I fought a ZeRo level diddy on FG. This guy was an alt with a fake NNID, and he was insanely good with Diddy. Probably would've won the match, but (please don't laugh) I forgot Diddy had a spike. I wasn't worrying about that option at the moment.

I maintain that we have a good matchup against Ryu. Not as good as I initially thought, but he is a pretty good MU for us. He has a hard time off stage because if his linear recovery that we can poke pretty easy with zair. Zair is just super good in the Ryu matchup. Bombs are great too. CS goes through hadouken. Super missile goes through EX hadouken. Samus can't be camped unless YOU are impatient.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Our personal opinions are directly colored by our personal experiences, to state the obvious, but it must be said.

In terms of basic play options, Ryu can't land vs. Samus as soon as you have the CS. Up-air beats out all his aerials. If he tries to tatsu FDAC fade away you just CS him. We're considerably faster than him (shocking but true).
We're really floaty so SDI out of the small hits often negates the big hit follow ups. Z-air tech chase to CS is great to use vs. focus attack.

Not to detract from the analysis, but more to compliment it: there are a handful of matchups that I really ENJOY playing, not because of any particular advantage/disadvantage but just because they're a good solid fight. I feel there's less gimmicks, less hitbox/hurtbox nonsense win or lose.
C. Falcon
Ryu
Ike
Little mac

If I find an actual main on glory of these guys, we go at it. Land a 50 CS combo on them, they invariably stick around.
There's skill to them, they have strengths and weakness, good combo games we can trade back and forth, it's just, FUN.

Basically anything with large lingering bizarre disjoints I simply find a pain. They are easy and frustrating to abuse. Rosa is #1 least "fun" for me.
Sheik is probably #2 because she's so poorly designed (as in designed with no punish windows - someone from nintendo, someday will have to explain to my why grenade beats CS).

Other characters I would enjoy fighting minus the hurtbox extension:
Mario bros (any flavour), spacies, yoshi. With a few more tweaks these could become much less pointlessly frustrating fights. I actually really appreciate coming across someone who mains them otherwise.
When you see someone just throwing out n-airs because they know you can't hit them out of it, despite it "looking" like you really should be able to.... it's just a bad taste...
The new nair has helped this, we can only hope for a few more moves to get the fix.

 

[KenMeister]

Just out curiosity, do you guys go on Anther's Ladder? I know good people come around once in awhile, but I don't think FG is the best place to determine MU advantages/disadvantages. Offline play or Anther's would be a more ideal place to garner knowledge, just speaking from personal experience.

 

[DungeonMaster]

We have some Anther's Ladder's regulars. I'm registered but I haven't played yet, I often only have time to play a few pickup games and for-glory is pretty much perfect for that.
I'm convinced there is a difference between the servers that run for-fun, for-glory, and between friends. For some reason I feel between friends has the worst connection, followed by
for-fun, and for-glory is crystal clear. I've seen this on numerous occasions where I've fought a friend, then gone on for-glory and fought the SAME friend minutes apart with way better latency.
This guy lives down the street from me, the only reason could be the server pathing.

 

[Xygonn]

Just out curiosity, do you guys go on Anther's Ladder? I know good people come around once in awhile, but I don't think FG is the best place to determine MU advantages/disadvantages. Offline play or Anther's would be a more ideal place to garner knowledge, just speaking from personal experience.

Registered, but it's a pain to get a match quickly. I don't take the majority of FG to be the signal for a character. I get some offline matches in against some good players as well. I know Ryu is still developing, but we have a lot of good tools against him.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Speaking of Ryu, his options against shield have to be either shield break from collar breaker or grab, which he can't get much out of.

His approach with that spinning kick is not safe if we can shield it in time. While it can plow through projectiles, then we must understand the range at which we can fire missiles safely. Just like against fox, whom missiles aren't safe against if he is half a stage, ryu has a distance larger than we expect where missiles are punishable. If we get punished for firing a missile, then we need only change ourselves. Eventually, they will never have that opening and so approach with hurricane kick will be punished.

Canceling focus in the air can be punishable. Punishing it really depends of where we are relative to ryu, and how close he is to the ground. If he jumps in the air, he will eventually have to land, and if he spams focus to land, then we can predict it and find a countermeasure. For example, air dodge spammers will get destroyed by cross-up pivot grabs on their landing. They expect an aerial and air dodge, but we bait it out and get that grab. With ryu, he gets a slight mix up tho, with forward-dash-cancel-focus (FDCF) and backwards-dash-cancel-focus (BDCF). The mix up isnt even that great. I have found myself dash attack punishing that plenty of times, but that depends on what we read and if we opt for an early dash attack, or late dash attack. Considering a late dash attack, which I prefer, when they FDCF, if we run up and dash attack, they will either be too close and we cross-up, but we can't be punished since we are too far behind, and we are in a close-quarters neutral situation. If they BDCF, they get hit by that dash attack. If they hold through focus without canceling, we still cross-up and may be too far for b-reverse focus to hit, or we shield it in time, and if they don't reverse the focus, we get an easy punish.
A focus approach is punishable just like any other movement option.

Zair is super good against his recovery. We can also break his fireball with our zair, but if we get too close, the fireball will go under, and we will get hit. So, yes, as Xygonn stated earlier, we get punished if we are impatient. Patience and zair can keep ryu out.

His aerials and combo game on samus is still strong, but it's not like we don't have good follow-ups for our moves as well. We definitely can't be unsafe on shield against ryu, but that goes the same for the rest of the cast. He just has a stronger punish. We really can't just throw out grab in this matchup tho, which sucks. If we miss a grab, we get that uppercut to the chin, and possibly lose a stock due to a whiffed grab. Overall, this matchup is just one where we make the ryu approach unsafely and punish. If we go too hard on the offensive, we'll get beat out playing ryu's game plan.

 

[Vyrnx]

Ryu' grab game is actually not bad despite not comboing. His pummel is really fast for a 2(?) damage pummel, and his bthrow does 12 damage. At mid percents he can usually get 18 damage off of a grab. Both his bthrow and fthrow give him good stage control and let him pressure with hadouken, but we can CS this of course. We have to watch out for his grabs though cuz their damage output is crazy, like most of his moves.

 

[Xygonn]

Yo Xyro77 , you have much experience against Trela's Ryu? Any advice (aside from don't get hit)? I'd love to hear from someone with lots of match experience.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Ryu' grab game is actually not bad despite not comboing.

Ryu's d-throw to DP is a true combo (16 damage) while not Samus level spectacular it's competitive with our basic d-throw f-air.
If you're not seeing this from your opponents, no worries, their overall metagame is like 6 months behind ours, to be fair we had a big lead.
Ryu can combo out of and into pretty much any of his moves, much like Samus. They're built using the same basic framework.
Except Sakurai felt it "fair" that Samus doesn't get guarantees from her d-air and Ryu does (no tech and look how tiny a bounce). That will forever rub me wrong.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ryu's d-throw to DP is a true combo (16 damage) while not Samus level spectacular it's competitive with our basic d-throw f-air.
If you're not seeing this from your opponents, no worries, their overall metagame is like 6 months behind ours, to be fair we had a big lead.
Ryu can combo out of and into pretty much any of his moves, much like Samus. They're built using the same basic framework.
Except Sakurai felt it "fair" that Samus doesn't get guarantees from her d-air and Ryu does (no tech and look how tiny a bounce). That will forever rub me wrong.

Pretty sure that combo only works at very low percents. Even then a simple bthrow does almost the same amount (13% + good pummelling) without staling his primary kill move.

Throws don't combo into anything in Street Fighter, and they definitely don't serve that purpose here. They just damage, beat guards and reposition.

Considering how risky it is for Ryu to dair a grounded opponent (bad air friction and small range), it only seems fair he gets significant rewards for it. Not to mention his proficiency in close quarters (hadouken's really just a poke; only the slowest characters get zoned by it). At least Samus has much wider range and can try to space it.

 

[Xyro77]

Yo Xyro77 , you have much experience against Trela's Ryu? Any advice (aside from don't get hit)? I'd love to hear from someone with lots of match experience.

Ryu's absolute worst aspect is his horizontal recovery. Very gimpable. His vertical recovery can be beaten with bombs near ledge or run off bair. You can also spoke it but this is difficult because I believe Ryu's up+b has good priority and armor on some parts.

As we know, Ryu is terrible from afar projectile wise (hadoken is a joke and is beaten by missiles and Charge shot).

Most of what I've seen Trela do in matches is aerial approaches so our u-tilt an up+b is a nice way to respond to this.

Ryu, when not in the air, doesn't really have good long range physical moves. Expect fast jabs, tilts and then a retreat to reset the approach. Most of these attacks can be up+b punished.

As for attacking Ryu, think Samus lol. He will up+b your poorly spaced moves and he will jab or dair to up+b kinda like we fast fall uair to up+b. He will usually dash attack the start up of your run (before you can shield I mean) or as you land to eat that airdodge.

I can't speak for other Ryu's but Trel love B-reversing Ryu's counter move. DONT fall for it unless you do a multi hit move or expect him to land on the ground with it (use a grab).

Lylat ledges mess his recover up.
BattleField platforms+up+B=early easy kills

Samus loses the MU but it's nothing like a sheik or fox.

 

[Wald0]

I've been using Kirby a lot lately and I was wondering if he's any good in terms of covering match-ups or if I should just go with ZSS or Pikachu instead

 

[pinkdeaf1]

I've been using Kirby a lot lately and I was wondering if he's any good in terms of covering match-ups or if I should just go with ZSS or Pikachu instead

I think Pika would be a better pick, if you aren't afraid to use the top-tiers and you have the skill to master pika.

 

[Wald0]

I think Pika would be a better pick, if you aren't afraid to use the top-tiers and you have the skill to master pika.

So pikachu > ZSS ? (I'll just have a pocket Kirby I guess)

 

[Xygonn]

Kirby covers the hell out of olimar.

 

[Boney]

So what do you guys think of the Toon Link match up?

That little brat can short hop and full hop freely with a wall of projectiles. Cancel his air dodges, keep throwing bombs, and his jump cancelled bombs into fair and up smash are brutal. He can walk us out while providing constant pressure.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I prefer T.Link to regular link. Yes there's the wall of projectiles and yes you can't do squat vs. them in a straight standing projectile war. But his disjoints are smaller and I fight him aggressively in tight with aerial approach.
He is harder to z-air but easier to trade blows with. Just like regular link he dislikes our full jump. It's an awkward angle and height for him to deal with fade out or in with bombs, zair, FF nair and up-air.
Get CS to keep them guessing about tossing an arrow or boomerang.

 

[zblaqk]

I'm going to be completely honest. Imo mario poses one of the toughest matchups for samus

 

[Boney]

I don't really have much trouble against regular links no matter how good they are (my barometer for good links are good use of bombs and jump canceling the throws). I think it's because I play very defensively so it's easier for me to keep Link at bay, crossing him up with dash attacks and constantly interrupting his approach options. Tink on the other hand probably gives me trouble because I can't play defensively.

Regarding Mario, definately, he's pretty bad. It's not unwinnable like say Shiek but he has very good tools to control the match. Full hop Fireballs covers his approaches, he has a ridiculous dash grab, incredibly fast aerials with very little recovery, an insane combo game on us and the cape that minimizes the opportunities to trap Mario with projectiles. And god that up smash. His approaches are linear so up tilts, nairs and back airs can cover us and give us an advantage point to go in.

 

[E.Lopez]

Since the topic of Toon Link came up, I thought I'd share two replays from a FG T. Link I ran across recently.

E.Lopez vs. Arbitrator
1 of 2
2 of 2

I was surprised by this guy's skill level, he seems to know how to do a lot of bomb tricks and combos, nice use of z-air, and so forth.

I really feel I should have lost these matches considering I was getting absolutely destroyed, but I somehow barely won in both cases.

Is this the kind of T. Link that gives Samus trouble? I honestly wasn't sure how to approach these matches, I just tried all sorts of things out. If you see me full hopping a lot, it's because I still haven't mastered doing SHAD yet.

Besides what's been mentioned so far, are there other basic strategies Samus should use in this MU?

 

[Xygonn]

Matchup Table (feel free to add to the OP)

Character | Ratio | Concensus
| 40 : 60 | Weak
| 43 : 57 | Moderate
| 57 : 43 | Moderate
| 42 : 58 | Strong
| 50 : 50 | Strong
| 43 : 57 | Moderate
| 55 : 45 | Moderate
| 36 : 64 | Moderate
| 52 : 48 | Moderate
| 50 : 50 | Strong
| 58 : 42 | Strong
| 65 : 35 | Strong
| 53 : 47 | Moderate
| 33 : 67 | Moderate
| 56 : 44 | Moderate
| 42 : 58 | Moderate
| 41 : 59 | Weak
| 54 : 47 | Strong
| 47 : 53 | Moderate
| 47 : 53 | Weak
| 47 : 53 | Very Strong
| 51 : 49 | Moderate
| 45 : 55 | Strong
| 45 : 55 | Moderate
| 63 : 37 | Strong
| 48 : 52 | Strong
| 59 : 41 | Weak
| 55 : 45 | Moderate
| 40 : 60 | Weak
| 54 : 46 | Moderate
| 49 : 51 | Weak
| 40 : 60 | Moderate
| 51 : 49 | Weak
| 56 : 44 | Moderate
| 49 : 51 | Moderate
| 43 : 57 | Moderate
| 46 : 54 | Moderate
| 65 : 35 | Moderate
| 51 : 49 | Moderate
| 54 : 46 | Weak
| 43 : 57 | Strong
| 59 : 41 | Weak
| 52 : 48 | Weak
| 43 : 57 | Moderate
| 62 : 38 | Weak
| 48 : 52 | Moderate
| 60 : 40 | Weak
| 49 : 51 | Weak
| 52 : 48 | Moderate
| 50 : 50 | Moderate
| 43 : 57 | Moderate
| 58 : 42 | Moderate
| 43 : 57 | Moderate
| 60 : 40 | Strong

 

[Afro Smash]

Thanks Xygonn, I added it to the OP but rounded to 5's and swap the ratio around

Made my own MU chart for funsies too

Character | Ratio
| 55 : 45
| 60 : 40
| 45 : 55
| 55 : 45
| 40 : 60
| 60 : 40
| 40 : 60
| 60 : 40
| 45 : 55
| 40 : 60 (More exp needed)
| 45 : 55
| 30 : 70
| 45 : 55 (More exp needed)
| 65 : 35
| 40 : 60
| 60 : 40
| 55 : 45
| 40 : 60
| 50 : 50
| 50 : 50
| 45 : 55
| 45 : 55
| 55 : 45
| 60 : 40
| 40 : 60
| 50 : 50
| 40 : 60 (More exp needed)
| 35 : 65 (More exp needed)
| 55 : 45
| ?? : ??
| ?? : ??
| ?? : ??
| 55 : 45
| 40 : 60
| 50 : 50
| 55 : 45
| 50 : 50 (More exp needed)
| 35 : 65
| 35 : 65
| 40 : 60
| 50 : 50
| 45 : 55
| 45 : 55
| ?? : ??
| 40 : 60
| 55 : 45
| 45 : 55
| 40 : 60 (More exp needed)
| 50 : 50
| 55 : 45
| 50 : 50 (More exp needed)
| 45 : 55
| 60 : 40
| 35 : 65

 

[KayJay]

Game & Watch is one of our hardest match-ups, to be honest a good (and I mean a very good G&W) is harder for me than a good sheik. That match-up is almost comparable to that of Metaknight.
Also I don't really feel a big disadvantage against good ZSS players. SHAD B-Air's/N-Air's/U-Air's make you almost never get grabbed. SH N-Air than FF into Auto-cancel limits ZSS approach options pretty good.

 

[Xygonn]

Thanks Xygonn, I added it to the OP but rounded to 5's and swap the ratio around

Thanks, I was too lazy to round by hand and excel wasn't playing nice with me to round to the nearest 5.

 

[MOM Samus]

Samus on Ike can get a bit unfair for Ike due to Charge Shot infinitely ruining his Aether. Bus I dislike is Rosa, Link, and Mega Man.

I don't think ZSS beats Samus. Do you guys know a player named Disorient? He's very good with ZSS, but my Samus kept two stocking him with very little effort.

Samus beats Kirby definitely. Kirby has very little approaches to Samus. We might lose if Kirby tries to D-air into Footstool us, however. Even against good Kirbys, I've not had much of a problem with them. Up+B OoS still beats Kirby D-air combos. But if you're on a tiny stage, you're probably going to lose. Final Cutter spike will spike us before we grab the ledge, so there's that...

I know Samus beats Rosalina, but I doubt it online. You need to be super crisp when fighting as Samus. You really can't afford too many mistakes. Rosa is super safe on everything and quite frankly more powerful than us, but I know Samus wins offline. My friend's Rosa is good but cheap. Very cheap, in fact. But even after getting juggled and hit with stuff that should never hit, I still win it.

 

[WispBae]

Hey there Bounty Hunters! The Doggy boards are currently discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click on DOUBLE CANNON SAMUS F*** YEAH to bomb jump over to the thread!

It also seems you guys have talked about Doggy first, which is surprising =o, I'll have to look at it later, anyone know what page the discussion starts?

 

[Xygonn]

Hey there Bounty Hunters! The Doggy boards are currently discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click on DOUBLE CANNON SAMUS F*** YEAH to bomb jump over to the thread!

It also seems you guys have talked about Doggy first, which is surprising =o, I'll have to look at it later, anyone know what page the discussion starts?

Our discussion is free flow. The ratios are the results of a survey of the Samus mains on all matchups.

 

[JAZZ_]

Our discussion is free flow. The ratios are the results of a survey of the Samus mains on all matchups.

can I just say I love the free flow aspect of our MU thread, makes getting help so much easier. I like to think the Samus boards are the most helpful in character development on the whole site.

 

[Davregis]

can I just say I love the free flow aspect of our MU thread, makes getting help so much easier. I like to think the Samus boards are the most helpful in character development on the whole site.

To follow up, learning Samus has been incredibly easy given all the info here... Never seen a board with so much good info constantly flowing through it. Shoutout to Dungeon Master

 

[WispBae]

Hm, while free flow is nice for discussing, it makes it harder for noobs or visitors like me to jump in and find specifics. =x A lil bit of uniformity goes a long way.

 

[Xygonn]

Hm, while free flow is nice for discussing, it makes it harder for noobs or visitors like me to jump in and find specifics. =x A lil bit of uniformity goes a long way.

Not to be rude but:

DHD is also not a bad one to search for.