Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[DungeonMaster]

Pac-man has been a controversial matchup in the past with differing opinions. I actually really enjoy fighting pacman, because I rush him down. hydrant loses full out to up-air when angled properly. That fact alone screws up pacman's gameplan in major ways. Samus has many hits that send it flying in just one hit as well. If they're inexperienced and they go all the way up to key, CS just murders it. Pac's grab is nearly as bad as Samus' and so I have almost no fear attacking his shield. Pac has a few lingering hitboxes we have to watch out for with our less-than-stellar hurtbox extensions but really, one of our better matchups.

 

[Tonetta]

Hydrant also loses to upb.

 

[Wald0]

What about ROB? I played against Mister Eric's and he just kept putting the pressure on with gyros, lasers and nairs

 

[Tonetta]

What about ROB? I played against Mister Eric's and he just kept putting the pressure on with gyros, lasers and nairs

Similar thing - power shield the gyro and it doesn't disappear, pick it up and spam b moves. his side b only reflects if his head is facing directly up so bait it out with a homing missile and then give him the cs. If you pick up the gyro fairly early in its' life you can actually throw it straight up and grab rob, and then catch it as it comes down if he gets too close.

 

[Depth_]

Copy paste from pacman boards.

I'd say it's easy for Samus and I agree with KayJay, but I don't even think it's even. We can easily close gaps with Z-air to get within close proximity. Our damage output is generally twice as high because of our combo ability and potential for followups off of our normals.

Before Pacman will have gotten his key, we'll probably already have a charge shot and be running towards him to apply pressure. Pacman gets outranged pretty hard even without the use of projectiles and I'm positive that charge shot eats the key. Hydrant is also the only projectiles in the game that charge shot loses to, but with little to no consequences.

Pacman gets juggled easily by Samus, but he cannot juggle us. Samus catches his landings pretty easily. The hydrant actually makes it easier, but the character seems to have a hard time catching our landings without his key. I would say we actually go even in terms of frame data . Don't forget that we have a 3 frame jab, 5 frame multi-hit up-air, 6 frame disjointed d-tilt, but we must acknowledge your 3 frame n-air. It's a hassle when we attempt shield crossups with up-air.

Finally, Pacman can't kill Samus, but we have an easy time killing him. We have a b-air that kills most characters from the center near 110 and a b-air trump that kills middle weight characters in the 70s. Samus has a spike, an amazing edgeguard tool in the form of u-tilt that kills on ledge near 80, a charge projectile that kills when half charged off-stage and somewhere in the 100s from the center. We have guaranteed killsetups into f-smash against your character because of his floatiness. Airdodge reads against Pacman near the ceiling come pretty easy because we can challenge hydrant, thus he gets killed off the top with Screw Attack just like any other character.

What does Pacman have against Samus? His key, fruits, and smashes, but his smash attacks are like frame 18. Samus is a heavy weight, floaty, and has above average recovery. You will struggle to kill us, we dish out more damage, and kill earlier. This matchup is absolutely terrible for Pacman.

I think we win 60/40.

ez monies.

 

[Hapajin]

Props to Depth_ for more fantastic Samus matches, still showing dominance in the Ness MU.

What do you think of Ike matchup? I have found it actually pretty tough, but my Samus is pretty "meh," and Ryo is the only really good Ike I can think of.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckXfLEB4coU

Also double Samus is super cool, props to @Tumultus too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RvWytffKyM

 

[Wald0]

Props to Depth_ for more fantastic Samus matches, still showing dominance in the Ness MU.

What do you think of Ike matchup? I have found it actually pretty tough, but my Samus is pretty "meh," and Ryo is the only really good Ike I can think of.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckXfLEB4coU

Also double Samus is super cool, props to @Tumultus too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RvWytffKyM

I was there too. I was rooting for Depth all the way. (wasn't Saj v Dolo hype?)

 

[Teshie U]

Props to Depth_ for more fantastic Samus matches, still showing dominance in the Ness MU.

What do you think of Ike matchup? I have found it actually pretty tough, but my Samus is pretty "meh," and Ryo is the only really good Ike I can think of.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckXfLEB4coU

Also double Samus is super cool, props to @Tumultus too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RvWytffKyM

I really feel Samus just struggles with ground hugging small targets. All the FE characters spend alot of time in the air AND are big enough to get hit easily on the ground.

 

[Wald0]

Where would Samus fit on a tier list? I accidently started a flame war on whether Samus is good or not (though I'm very much so biased on the subject).

 

[Afro Smash]

Low end of mid tier imo, there's no real consensus on it though

 

[Wald0]

Low end of mid tier imo, there's no real consensus on it though

Some people believe she belongs in her own tier; D tier...

 

[DungeonMaster]

I think tier list discussions are a bit premature. There are still patches coming, new characters, some old characters have changed radically from when the game launched (take ike for instance). This is also the matchup thread, so it's not really appropriate.
I'm still in the camp that even given the mountain of problems there is still hope this character at the highest skill level can be strong. We are still not at completely optimal play with the meta, while acknowledging a realistic perspective on the built-in design flaws. There is no question a shot in the arm would be nice.

 

[Hapajin]

Tips on Greninja matchup? I'm struggling with feeling forced to approach, and I don't know how to punish his approach. also, I got edgeguarded pretty bad...

 

[Wald0]

Should I second DK? I use him so much since he's similar to how you played him in melee. I just want to know if it's pointless or not (AKA if DK covers any of Samus' bad MUs)

 

[FlAlex]

Should I second DK? I use him so much since he's similar to how you played him in melee. I just want to know if it's pointless or not (AKA if DK covers any of Samus' bad MUs)

I play with DK a bit (as a funnsies, so take my knowledge with salt.). No, DK does not cover any of Samus' bad MU's. I think he has more problems than Samus does tbh.

That being said, I aint, given DK up. He's too fun. :D

 

[Wald0]

I play with DK a bit (as a funnsies, so take my knowledge with salt.). No, DK does not cover any of Samus' bad MU's. I think he has more problems than Samus does tbh.

That being said, I aint, given DK up. He's too fun. :D

Hey can ding dong though

 

[Xygonn]

Should I second DK? I use him so much since he's similar to how you played him in melee. I just want to know if it's pointless or not (AKA if DK covers any of Samus' bad MUs)

These are our Bad MUs:
Pikachu
Fox
Mario
Sheik
ZSS
Sonic
Rosalina
Megaman
Falco
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Olimar
Greninja
Diddy
Metaknight

IMO DK has a better (but still disadvantaged) MU against Mario, Rosalina, and Metaknight. He has worse MUs in a lot of cases.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I don't think Rosalina is really bad for us or how DK is better. ._.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Rosalina can just down b and leave us without the most relaible kill move we have (CS). Or Luma will eat it for her.
Only for that, I don't think we have that much of advantage...

 

[Teshie U]

These are our Bad MUs:
Pikachu
Fox
Mario
Sheik
ZSS
Sonic
Rosalina
Megaman
Falco
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Olimar
Greninja
Diddy
Metaknight

IMO DK has a better (but still disadvantaged) MU against Mario, Rosalina, and Metaknight. He has worse MUs in a lot of cases.

Whats so bad about megaman and olimar? Almost everyone on that list can get up close and frame data the heck out of Samus with jabs and tilts but those characters kind of hang around in mid/long range where Samus excels. They also can't really harm her much for shielding.

 

[Afro Smash]

Olimar can pretty easily condition and punish Shield, and has an infinte supply of Pikmin to block our projectiles, and is possibly the smallest character in the game so not the easiest for us to hit.

Mega Man also excels in mid range, and Lemons > Samus, there's really not much she do to combat smart use of lemons, they outrange our tilts, will interrupt our Zair (since we have to do it on the way down from a SH) and clank our missiles. CS beats them but it's very difficult to find time to charge.

 

[miniada]

BRAND NEW MARIO MATCHUP THREAD CURRENTLY ... we are discussing samus and would love your input

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gsybibaaYwQ4rLLZg&sig2=sbpdgkrpoSad-iCQDT3y6g were discussing samus and would love you're input on her

 

[MOM Samus]

I don't think Rosalina is really bad for us or how DK is better. ._.

Rosa is very bad for us. Just stay in shield and hope to Up Smash OoS.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Why are we forced in shield against Rosa specifically?

 

[MOM Samus]

It's mostly what I do. Don't even bother camping. Rosa is so safe that she can rush Samus with little consequence. Rosa has slight kill throws, but her main kills come from dat Up Smash and Side Smash. She really can't kill you from a grab cenetr stage. And Rosa racks up enormous damage from Jabs, and that makes this a huge problem since Jabs can lock you in shield for a bit.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I don't see how Rosa can apply unstoppable pressure when zair and Jab work so well against Luma.

 

[Emerlad_Element]

I was gonna post what I knew about the Pac matchup but it seems y'all have already covered it. (Though I didn't read everything) Should I post what I know even if it has possibly already been posted?

 

[JAZZ_]

I just went twelve rounds with a freakin good Ryu and just barely won the last match due to a lucky PP Utilt. thats 1-11 his favor. It sucked, I felt like he could close in without any hesitation and just was too fast. and with these new shields if I put up a shield I was gonna get pummeled hard. My aerials we too slow for his, he could hit me out of UP B really effortlessly, and his reach beat out mine.
Is there any trick we have against Ryu's in this new patch?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Emerlad_Element Always feel free to post, we're always looking for new tidbits and info.

JAZZ_ I fought a bunch of ryu last evening, some quite good. I feel the matchup is still in our favour, you're likely just getting read really hard. His aerials/mobility are not faster than ours, it's about even.
We have tons of high damage multihits, so you want to throw those out liberally.

 

[KayJay]

The Luigi Match-up is even easier than before. I'm not even sure if he's still a top 5 character now.

 

[Teshie U]

Olimar can pretty easily condition and punish Shield, and has an infinte supply of Pikmin to block our projectiles, and is possibly the smallest character in the game so not the easiest for us to hit.

Mega Man also excels in mid range, and Lemons > Samus, there's really not much she do to combat smart use of lemons, they outrange our tilts, will interrupt our Zair (since we have to do it on the way down from a SH) and clank our missiles. CS beats them but it's very difficult to find time to charge.

Superior ground speed. Run away, charge up. Only takes a partial charge to beat out buster shots. You need it mostly charged I think to beat metal blade though, but being able to tear through pellets evens up the neutral game. If he initiates a dash to keep up with you, turn around and dash attack/ftilt/fsmash him.

Pellets commit to the direction they are facing fairly hard. After shooting a pellet, MM can quickly shoot another, but he has to wait to do anything else. You can airdodge past him and hit with nair/bair/uair or if the timing is tight you can reverse airdodge past him so you can zair him in the back. You can also grab him at max range when he is pelleting (he takes 3 damage, you take 2).

Samus can edgeguard the heck out of him too.

 

[Boney]

The Luigi Match-up is even easier than before. I'm not even sure if he's still a top 5 character now.

He isn't. He's still pretty good but not getting that bull**** kill confirm makes it much easier. We still have to worry about up smash though, I have the habit of short hopping his run in grab so good players just run up and up smash.
Sadly we "lost" our best top tier match up, so it's only gonna make tournament life harder with less Luigi's out there.

Superior ground speed. Run away, charge up. Only takes a partial charge to beat out buster shots. You need it mostly charged I think to beat metal blade though, but being able to tear through pellets evens up the neutral game. If he initiates a dash to keep up with you, turn around and dash attack/ftilt/fsmash him.

Pellets commit to the direction they are facing fairly hard. After shooting a pellet, MM can quickly shoot another, but he has to wait to do anything else. You can airdodge past him and hit with nair/bair/uair or if the timing is tight you can reverse airdodge past him so you can zair him in the back. You can also grab him at max range when he is pelleting (he takes 3 damage, you take 2).

Samus can edgeguard the heck out of him too.

Pellets can be cancelled into jump. Making them a pretty safe harassing tool. If you try air dodging towards him you'll get hit by a nair which sends you flying. Plus he'd never dash towards you with that amazing aerial mobility he has, he'd only be limiting his options.

CS is definately the key but it's not as easy as run back charge. He'll quickly put you in the corner where Samus has no real options against him. But you can zair him when he jumps back with nair, get a quick charge or even get a dash attack. I think getting hit by pellets will leave you in a better position that shielding them so be quick to punish there.

 

[DungeonMaster]

So I mentioned a few pages back but megaman has a really irritating advanced technique. It's not merely that pellets can be cancelled into jump it's that forward moving pellets into n-air true-combo.
I play mega as my secondary.
This combo is really difficult to deal with when you're a tall character (aka Samus) and it produces tech chases and jab locks.
I had one match against a decent mega the other day, and the upgraded n-air is a big help. If you don't know Samus' own n-air combos, and don't use n-air in your regular gameplay, you're going to find going up against a master of this combo hard.
It's not published yet (soon...) but the n-air combo tree is extremely simple if you focus on n-airs alone. It goes n-air -> d-tilt then n-air -> f-tilt then n-air -> dash attack -> aerial single.
This works on all characters, regardless of rage. i.e If you land n-air -> f-tilt then you immediately know you have n-air -> dash for your next available combo, no guesswork.

 

[Vyrnx]

The new nair is actually pretty useful to counter Quick Attack, since the hitboxes last twice as long. Maybe with practice we could make the Pikachu MU slightly less awful. Also, does anyone know if uair works against QA?

 

[Emerlad_Element]

Ok great! Here's what I know!

Bonus Fruit:
The thing that we need to worry about most in the Pac-Man matchup is how to get around the Bonus Fruit. As they can block CS, If your opponent knows this then they will start throwing out Cherries when they expect a CS. Most fruit (If not all of them) will cancel CS so be wary of that. I've found that if you hit the fruit with a regular missile, It will bounce the fruit up, leaving room for a CS to sneak through. That's honestly somewhat situational but it has helped me and Pac-Men never see it coming. Pacs will use the orange to tech chase or snipe you offstage, a simple air dodge makes it very easy to catch. Speaking of catching, if a Pac throws a melon, they're more then likely going to run after it and catch it. Depending on the distance/situation you can either catch the melon yourself, or avoid the melon and punish (or get away) if the Pac continues to pursue the melon. The Apple has deceptively long distance both in the air and on the ground; Pacs will use it to help them get back to the stage and as a kill option at 140%. Another thing is (and I'm sure this goes without saying but I want to stress this.) Memorize and know what the fruit do, it's a tremendous help.

Fire Hydrant:
Thankfully, fire hydrant doesn't stop us like it stops most characters. Like mentioned before, U-Air and U-B go right through the hydrant making it safe to be on the offensive as it spawns and catching people who don't know the matchup off. Pacs can use this as an offensive tool and as a defensive tool and at times can use it as both. A Pac can spawn a hydrant at the beginning of the match and quickly send it flying by running off of it, giving it a B-Air followed by F-Tilt, sending it our way in an attempt to keep us from charging CS, just simply shield and continue charging if they don't approach. Also, don't be afraid to unleash a CS in an attempt to take out the hydrant, especially if it's not at full charge. This will disrupt most Pac strategies and is difficult for them to deal with. You can also use SM and U-Tilt and F-Smash to take it out as well.

Offstage:
Don't try it often. We're good offstage but Pac is better given that his Up-B and Side-B has super armor and if he's knocked up high, he can use the apple to prevent you from pursuing. The best you could do is mess with his trampoline when he's recovering deep. I'm not saying it's impossible but Pac wins offstage.

Other Stuff:
B-Air can kill and F-Air can juggle like nothing else given its low knockback, at mid to high %'s it can be air dodged out of. N-Air is incredibly fast making a good OoS option and a combo breaker. Up-B is also fast and a great OoS option, often beating out Screw Attack.

Hope something I here wasn't known

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

I'm happy to see so many Samus players, I thought there were next to none besides the For Glory spammers. We're still discussing 2Pac-Man right?

 

[JAZZ_]

Is anyone else getting Captain falcon matchups 90% of the time in FG? It frustrates me a bit. Any advice for the

I'm happy to see so many Samus players, I thought there were next to none besides the For Glory spammers. We're still discussing 2Pac-Man right?

I've never fought a spammy Samus in FG, the only ones that do that against me are scrubs who lose with all their mains and switch to Samus to spam me out. (Which fails) its nice knowing that Samus' are using all the tools that work in fg

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Captain Falcon is the most popular character, it should be of no surprise since he’s also top tier. Anyway, I run into the occasional FG Samus, the rolling campers, as long as I’m using one of my mains, though, they’re more annoying than anything.

 

[JAZZ_]

Captain Falcon is the most popular character, it should be of no surprise since he’s also top tier. Anyway, I run into the occasional FG Samus, the rolling campers, as long as I’m using one of my mains, though, they’re more annoying than anything.

Spammy Samus' lose, I hate falcons though, and 90% of fg'ers I see are falcon. I find spammy Zamus' more annoying though, not because they beat me, because they don't, but because they think a+b+ repeat = easy win. They don't adapt and its a shame that a super technical character becomes super brain dead when the suit comes off. :[ I should have her as a secondary, but out of principle I don't.