Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[RoachCake]

Not including Miis since I don't have any experience against them. Nobody mains these guys, wth.

Spoiler: Spoilerz

Good = 5
Bad = 22
Even = 24

Vs. 55:45 / 0
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 35:65 / -2 (Heavily stage dependent)
Vs. 55:45 / 0
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 55:45 / 0
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 55:45 / 0
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 60:40 / +1
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 60:40 / +1
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 40:60 / -1 (Heavily stage dependent)
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 60:40 / +1
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 60:40 / +1
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 55:45 / 0
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 60:40 / +1
Vs. 30:70 / -2
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 40:60 / -1
Vs. 50:50 / 0
Vs. 50:50 / 0

 

[Depth_]

Spoiler

vs 60:40
vs 60:40
vs 30:70 (on omega & smashville), 45:55 (on Dreamland, Battlefield,...)
vs 60:40
vs 50:50
vs 60:40
vs 40:60
vs 70:30
vs 55:45
vs 60:40
vs 40:60
vs 30:70
vs 70:30
vs 30:70 (CS bucket can kill us at 0%)
vs 50:50
vs 60:40
vs 60:40
vs 60:40
vs 60:40
vs 40:60
vs 50:50
vs 55:45
vs 55:45
vs 65:35
vs 55:45
vs 55:45
vs 45:55
vs 10:90 (1 dash attack from MK and it's over on omega stage (up airs to up b true killcombo) 45:55 (on stages with plattform, you have to camp on a plattform so you don't get hit from dash attack)
vs 55:45
vs ??
vs ??
vs ??
vs 55:45
vs 45:55
vs 55:45
vs 50:50
vs 60:40
vs 40:60
vs 50:50
vs 60:40
vs 45:55
vs 60:40
vs 55:45
vs 50:50
vs 30:70 (omega & smashville) 45:55 (battlefield, dreamland)
vs 60:40
vs 40:60
vs 45:55
vs 50:50
vs 50:50
vs 60:40
vs 45:55
vs 60:40
vs 45:55

10:90 on MK? My god.

 

[Tonetta]

10:90 on MK? My god.

I have a very similar reaction but then again I always ban FD against stupid spammer type characters.

 

[Depth_]

I have a very similar reaction but then again I always ban FD against stupid spammer type characters.

It's quite easy to figure out what he's going to do. He only has two strong options, dash attack or dash grab, so we need to know when he's going to do it. That's more player dependent than matchup dependent. I'd ban FD against him as well, though.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Posted a ? if I have no idea
Posted a ~ if I'm estimating moreso
Assumed with customs option set to off

Spoiler

vs 60:40 ~
vs 60:40 ~
vs 35:65
vs ?
vs ?
vs 65:35
vs 35:65 ~
vs 60:40 ~
vs 40:60 ~
vs 50:50 ~
vs ?
vs 30:70 ~
vs 60:40 ~
vs 40:60
vs 40:60 ~
vs 55:45 ~
vs 65:35
vs 45:55 ~
vs 45:55
vs 45:55 ~
vs ?
vs ?
vs 55:45
vs 55:45
vs 35:65
vs 55:45
vs 30:70
vs 35:65
vs 65:35
vs ?
vs 35:65 (default - 40:60)
vs ?
vs 40:60
vs ?
vs 55:45 ~
vs 60:40 ~
vs 60:40 ~
vs 35:65 ~
vs ?
vs 60:40 ~
vs 40:60 ~
vs ?
vs 50:50
vs 50:50
vs 35:65
vs ?
vs 40:60 ~
vs 50:50 ~
vs 50:50
vs 45:55 ~
vs 60:40 ~
vs 40:60
vs 60:40
vs 35:65

 

[Xygonn]

So just a quick review of the current state of the survey, higher means harder to beat. 6 is 50:50. Each point adds 5 to the opponent's side of the ratio. So 10 is 30:70.

I think one of the important things we can get out of the table is the STD Dev, which shows where we disagree the most and more discussion would be helpful.

Most contentious:
Little Mac
Ness
Mii Brawler
Toon Link
Bowser
Jigglypuff
Ike
Mii Swordsman
ROB
Ryu

Worst MUs:
Pikachu
Sheik
Fox
Megaman
Mario
Sonic
ZSS
Falco
Olimar
Diddy

Best MUs:
Ganon
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff
Charizard
Bowser Jr
Mewtwo
Mii Swordsman
Zelda
Ryu
WFT

Spoiler: Table of MU ratings

Character | Minimum | Maximum | Median | Mean | STD Dev
Pikachu | 9 | 10 | 10 | 9.67 | 0.47
Sheik | 9 | 10 | 9.5 | 9.5 | 0.5
Fox | 9 | 10 | 9 | 9.2 | 0.4
Megaman | 8 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 0.89
Mario | 8 | 9 | 9 | 8.8 | 0.4
Sonic | 7 | 10 | 8 | 8.4 | 1.02
ZSS | 7 | 9 | 8 | 8.17 | 0.69
Falco | 7 | 9 | 8 | 8 | 0.63
Olimar | 7 | 8 | 8 | 7.6 | 0.49
Diddy | 7 | 8 | 8 | 7.6 | 0.49
Greninja | 6 | 8 | 8 | 7.4 | 0.8
Rosalina | 6 | 9 | 7 | 7.4 | 1.02
Metaknight | 6 | 8 | 7 | 7.17 | 0.69
Dr. Mario | 5 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 1.26
Mii Brawler | 4 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 1.73
Kirby | 6 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 0.89
Captain Falcon | 5 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 1.26
Roy | 5 | 8 | 7 | 6.8 | 1.17
Villager | 6 | 8 | 6 | 6.8 | 0.98
G&W | 6 | 8 | 6.5 | 6.75 | 0.83
Yoshi | 6 | 8 | 6 | 6.6 | 0.8
ROB | 5 | 8 | 7 | 6.6 | 1.36
Lucas | 4 | 8 | 6 | 6.2 | 1.33
Wario | 5 | 7 | 6 | 6.2 | 0.75
Duck Hunt | 5 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 0.89
Marth | 5 | 7 | 5.5 | 5.83 | 0.9
Ness | 4 | 8 | 5.5 | 5.83 | 1.86
Toon Link | 3 | 8 | 6 | 5.8 | 1.72
Little Mac | 3 | 8 | 6 | 5.8 | 2.04
Pac-Man | 5 | 7 | 5 | 5.8 | 0.98
Pit | 5 | 7 | 6 | 5.8 | 0.75
Dark Pit | 5 | 6 | 6 | 5.6 | 0.49
Mii Gunner | 4 | 7 | 5.5 | 5.5 | 1.12
Dedede | 4 | 7 | 6 | 5.4 | 1.2
Shulk | 4 | 7 | 5 | 5.2 | 1.17
Lucina | 4 | 7 | 4 | 5 | 1.26
Peach | 4 | 6 | 5 | 4.8 | 0.75
Bowser | 2 | 7 | 5 | 4.8 | 1.72
Ike | 2 | 6 | 5 | 4.6 | 1.5
Luigi | 4 | 6 | 4 | 4.6 | 0.8
WFT | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4.4 | 1.02
Ryu | 3 | 7 | 4 | 4.4 | 1.36
Palutena | 4 | 6 | 4 | 4.4 | 0.8
Robin | 3 | 5 | 5 | 4.4 | 0.8
Zelda | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4.33 | 1.25
Mii Swordsman | 2 | 6 | 4.5 | 4.25 | 1.48
Mewtwo | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4.2 | 1.17
Bowser Jr | 3 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 0.63
Charizard | 3 | 4 | 4 | 3.8 | 0.4
Jigglypuff | 1 | 5 | 4 | 3.5 | 1.66
Donkey Kong | 2 | 4 | 2 | 2.6 | 0.8
Ganon | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2.4 | 0.49

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

You missed Link in the survey btw. :<

 

[Xygonn]

You missed Link in the survey btw. :<

Fixed. If you take the survey from the same computer you can add a rating for Link. Don't know how I missed him.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/XD9B6KW

 

[JAZZ_]

Anyone else feel confident when faced with a FG Ness MU? I tend to win nearly every Ness MU I come across. Too many FG Ness' give you way to much space when you have the CS hoping to absorb or reflect it.
I'm I overly confident when I face a Ness? (I have faced an aggressive Ness before and it was in his Favor, but very few FG Ness' for me lately are that confident and aggressive)

 

[KayJay]

It's quite easy to figure out what he's going to do. He only has two strong options, dash attack or dash grab, so we need to know when he's going to do it. That's more player dependent than matchup dependent. I'd ban FD against him as well, though.

It totally doesn't matter, all he has to do is to land one single dash attack on omega and you lose a stock as Samus, and he will land it, Samus's neutral isn't good enough to avoid it the whole time. It really is a big hard counter, more than Fox. (compareable to Kirby vs. Link in Brawl, Kirby could chaingrab Link to 40%-60% and then 1 single F-Smash killed Link doe to that strange kb angle Kirby's F-smash had and due to Link's bad Up.B recovery back then)

 

[Tonetta]

It totally doesn't matter, all he has to do is to land one single dash attack on omega and you lose a stock as Samus, and he will land it, Samus's neutral isn't good enough to avoid it the whole time. It really is a big hard counter, more than Fox. (compareable to Kirby vs. Link in Brawl, Kirby could chaingrab Link to 40%-60% and then 1 single F-Smash killed Link doe to that strange kb angle Kirby's F-smash had and due to Link's bad Up.B recovery back then)

I want to see a video.

 

[KayJay]

I want to see a video.

I don't have a video, but you can ask Scream. He was in the same tournament and he felt & saw it too. Made many friendlys against that Metaknight to see if DI helps. It doesn't, (only on dash attack DI'ng away helps at some %, on the u-airs you can put your controller down and do a facepalm) but choosing dreamland/Battlefield helped greatly like I described.

 

[Vyrnx]

I want to see a video.

If you look up Ito Meta Knight and watch one of his matches you will more than likely see him do it. It's one of the few early death combos that isn't hard to pull off at all.

Even without the instant death combo, his up-b still gives Samus huge trouble. He can rush us down bad and his fsmash is a really good move with lots of knock back and practically no endlag.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GTEfiTCicg

At 5:12 he does the shortened version vs 6WX but it's still a guaranteed kill. Even on other stages with higher ceilings there's an extended version of like 4-5 up airs into up b.

 

[Xygonn]

I always thought we were floaty enough we could AD if we DI'd up against MK. I could definitely be wrong.

 

[DungeonMaster]

DI up and IN and mash air-dodge. You avoid the first hitbox of the up-B. Then you up-B out of the air-dodge and kill MK at 0%

 

[JAZZ_]

DI up and IN and mash air-dodge. You avoid the first hitbox of the up-B. Then you up-B out of the air-dodge and kill MK at 0%

provide a video for that someone! I wanna see that

 

[DungeonMaster]

I've only tested it a few times, to be fair, against some good MK online. Pretty sure I saved a video, since it's hilarious, but I would have to check. Someone(s) should perform an offline test because we all know lag.
I quite like fighting MK in fact. I generally like fighting the ball-like characters (MK, Puff, Kirby, D3, etc...). It's very easy to track where they pop out of up-air.

 

[Tonetta]

If you look up Ito Meta Knight and watch one of his matches you will more than likely see him do it. It's one of the few early death combos that isn't hard to pull off at all.

Even without the instant death combo, his up-b still gives Samus huge trouble. He can rush us down bad and his fsmash is a really good move with lots of knock back and practically no endlag.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GTEfiTCicg

At 5:12 he does the shortened version vs 6WX but it's still a guaranteed kill. Even on other stages with higher ceilings there's an extended version of like 4-5 up airs into up b.

This isn't done on samus, she is the exception to a lot of "guaranteed" anythings. Proper di should get you out of this combo as samus.

 

[KayJay]

Proper di should get you out of this combo as samus.

Good luck trying.

 

[Boney]

Wait up air cancels pk thunder? First and last hits I suppose? Guess I'm gonna give that a try but it's still has to be frame perfect due to the small hit box. Either way, staying away from a good ness is easier said that done. FG shouldn't be used as a parameter regarding how good the match up is.

Guess I'll make my own match up list to hop in the discussion.
Survey gave me an error last time so I haven't done it.

Spoiler

vs 60:40
vs 50:50
vs 35:65
vs 50:50
vs 50:50
vs 60:40
vs 35:65
vs 70:30
vs 40:60
vs 50:50
vs 35:65
vs 30:70 ~
vs 60:40
vs 35:65
vs 40:60
vs 50:50
vs 65:35
vs 45:55
vs 40:60
vs 55:45
vs 50:50
vs 45:55
vs 55:45
vs 45:55
vs 35:65
vs 55:45
vs 30:70
vs 40:60 (had no idea his early death combo was so guaranteed, in that case I'll give it a 20:80
vs 65:35
vs 40:60 (these are with customs)
vs 35:65
vs 55:45
vs 40:60
vs 35:65
vs 55:45
vs 55:45
vs 60:40
vs 25:75
vs 50:50
vs 45:55
vs 40:60
vs ?
vs 60:40
vs 40:60 (can juggle and edge guard for days)
vs 25:75
vs 50:50
vs 35:65
vs 40:60
vs 40:60
vs 45:55
vs 60:40
vs 45:55
vs 60:40
vs 35:65

 

[Afro Smash]

I've faced a lot of good Ness in tournament and they really have no easy way through missiles and zair regardless of their skill, also up Air to cancel pkt is really easy to time in practice, im not certain it has to be the first or last hit but ive not missed since I learned about it

 

[Xygonn]

Wait up air cancels pk thunder? First and last hits I suppose? Guess I'm gonna give that a try but it's still has to be frame perfect due to the small hit box. Either way, staying away from a good ness is easier said that done. FG shouldn't be used as a parameter regarding how good the match up is.

All hits. 2 frames of hitbox followed by 1 frame vulnerable repeated 6 times starting on frame 5. PKT is a fairly slow moving projectile so uair is pretty reliable against it. You get the best disjoint near Samus' feet. The last hitbox has the worst disjoint and is the most likely to not cancel pkt1. All projectiles doing 9% damage or less are canceled by any hitbox. Whether or not you get the cancel has to do with if the projectile also reaches a hurtbox on the same frame. Hence, fast moving projectiles are pretty likely to hit you out of uair, but slow ones you can gobble up pretty easy.

 

[Afro Smash]

What is our neutral game vs sheik? I feel like we have 0 control there

• Missile pressure gets bouncing fished
• Needle pressure prevents charging
• Constant Ff short hops makes landing zairs and grabs very difficult
• Jab unsafe on hit til 30, doesn't combo til 60
• All tilts need perfect spacing to be safe on shield, very difficult to space that well vs sheik with her great movement

I feel like I win 40-50% of my games vs good sheiks, but if there are good tools to use or advice on what to do in the neutral it would be appreciated

 

[Vyrnx]

This isn't done on samus, she is the exception to a lot of "guaranteed" anythings. Proper di should get you out of this combo as samus.

Sorry to go back to this, but I asked the MK boards and they said that Samus is one of the easiest characters to get with the up air string because of her floatiness (weird) and she can't escape it. A down throw or a dash attack between 18 and 30 is a guaranteed kill. So all we have to do is avoid a character who literally has almost the same grab range that we do and a fourth of the lag lol.

As far as this MU goes, MK is somewhat similar to Captain Falcon with a sword. He's way shorter so we have a harder time zairing him out and if we miss a zair we get grabbed, which could mean the stock. He can also edge guard hard, and stages with low ceilings and platforms like Dreamland benefit him as much as they benefit us, because his up b is seriously good.

For whatever reason MK's like to challenge a grounded Samus from above with dairs, but if this happens up smash is strangely reliable against MK, and kills him early. Sweet spot fsmash also kills him very early since he is light. I think the best option is to run away a lot, use pivot attacks, missile whenever it's safe, and play the punish game well (CS, if you can get it charged) .That said I think MK is one of our worst matchups on any stage, 30:70.

 

[JAZZ_]

OK I need some advice. What do you do against a spammy ditto? I don't play Samus spammy at all and just a few moments ago I faced a spammus with some afore knowledge of her other tools. I didn't fair well. Any suggestions for me?

 

[leiraD]

Good luck trying.

Played against Tyrant's mk at CEO. It was terrible. Death came so quickly...

 

[RoachCake]

OK I need some advice. What do you do against a spammy ditto? I don't play Samus spammy at all and just a few moments ago I faced a spammus with some afore knowledge of her other tools. I didn't fair well. Any suggestions for me?

...Your 3DS username wouldn't happen to be "arbok" would it?

If so, I can assure you that wasn't spam.

 

[JAZZ_]

...Your 3DS username wouldn't happen to be "arbok" would it?

If so, I can assure you that wasn't spam.

No I play on wii u, and my username is Jazz
always Jazz

and this particular player I believe was named W!SH. No discredit to his skill, just so much CS and SM within 30 secs that it made my head spin. any advice on dealing with massive projectile volleys?

 

[Afro Smash]

Powershield, and Charge Shot beats missiles

 

[RoachCake]

No I play on wii u, and my username is Jazz
always Jazz

and this particular player I believe was named W!SH. No discredit to his skill, just so much CS and SM within 30 secs that it made my head spin. any advice on dealing with massive projectile volleys?

Didn't think so, but the time you posted was so close to when I stopped fighting this other dude, thought it could have been you.

I'm not the best with advice, but what I usually do against the spammy ones is always punish their Missiles with CS, try to find a pattern in their CS usage so I can power shield accordingly, and out spam them once I've got stage control.
And leave right after the game is over since they're so annoying.

Edit: Also if both of you are charging CS at the same time, if you time your shot well enough you can catch the vulnerability window at the end of their full charge.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Dash -> Shield ( shield grab if close enough).
Dash -> SH AD -> cancel into z-air / aerial.
FJ FF -> Z-air.
The endlag and startup on missiles is just so insane...

 

[Xygonn]

After 10 replies to the survey here are the current results (last post was with 6 replies).

As mentioned before 6 is 50:50 and each number above 6 is worth 5 in the opponent's ratio. So a 4 is 60:40 and a 9 is 65:35.

17 Bad MUs (>7)
20 Close MUs (5,7) (plus the ditto)
16 Good Mus (<5)

Missing from the survey, Lucario. I apparently just had a brain fart in the L's because I forgot Link earlier.


Worst MUs:
Fox
Sheik
Pikachu
Mario
Sonic
ZSS
Megaman
Rosalina
Falco
Yoshi

Best MUs:
Zelda
Palutena
Charizard
Bowser
WFT
Jigglypuff
Mii Swordsman
Mewtwo
Donkey Kong
Ganon

Most Controversial:
Megaman
Ness
Little Mac
Mii Gunner
Jigglypuff
ROB
Bowser
Toon Link
Link
Yoshi
Metaknight

Spoiler: Matchup Table

Character |Minimum– |Maximum– |Median– |Mean– |Standard Deviation–
Ganon | 1 | 6 | 2.5 | 2.88 | 1.45
Donkey Kong | 2 | 6 | 3.5 | 3.38 | 1.32
Mewtwo | 1 | 6 | 3.5 | 3.63 | 1.41
Mii Swordsman | 2 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 1.41
Jigglypuff | 1 | 6 | 5 | 4.14 | 1.73
WFT | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4.25 | 0.97
Bowser | 2 | 7 | 4 | 4.33 | 1.7
Palutena | 2 | 6 | 4 | 4.38 | 1.22
Charizard | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4.38 | 0.99
Zelda | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4.44 | 1.17
Ike | 2 | 6 | 5 | 4.63 | 1.41
Dedede | 3 | 7 | 4 | 4.67 | 1.49
Ryu | 3 | 7 | 4 | 4.71 | 1.48
Robin | 3 | 6 | 5 | 4.75 | 0.97
Bowser Jr | 3 | 8 | 4 | 4.78 | 1.4
Lucina | 4 | 7 | 5 | 5 | 1
Peach | 4 | 8 | 5 | 5.13 | 1.27
Luigi | 4 | 8 | 5 | 5.38 | 1.41
Little Mac | 3 | 8 | 5 | 5.5 | 1.87
Link | 3 | 7 | 6 | 5.5 | 1.66
Marth | 5 | 7 | 5 | 5.67 | 0.82
Pac-Man | 4 | 7 | 5 | 5.71 | 1.16
Shulk | 4 | 8 | 6 | 5.71 | 1.39
Mii Gunner | 4 | 9 | 5.5 | 5.83 | 1.77
Toon Link | 3 | 8 | 6 | 5.88 | 1.69
Duck Hunt | 5 | 7 | 6 | 5.88 | 0.78
Pit | 5 | 8 | 6 | 6 | 1.07
Lucas | 4 | 8 | 6 | 6 | 1.2
Ness | 4 | 8 | 7 | 6.11 | 1.91
Dark Pit | 5 | 8 | 6 | 6.13 | 0.93
Wario | 5 | 7 | 7 | 6.5 | 0.71
Dr. Mario | 4 | 8 | 7 | 6.5 | 1.58
ROB | 4 | 9 | 7.5 | 6.75 | 1.71
Villager | 6 | 8 | 6 | 6.75 | 0.97
Kirby | 6 | 8 | 7 | 6.88 | 0.78
Metaknight | 3 | 9 | 7 | 6.89 | 1.59
G&W | 6 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 0.93
Roy | 5 | 9 | 7 | 7 | 1.22
Mii Brawler | 4 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 1.55
Olimar | 5 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 1.07
Greninja | 5 | 9 | 8 | 7.38 | 1.22
Diddy | 4 | 9 | 8 | 7.44 | 1.42
Captain Falcon | 5 | 9 | 8 | 7.44 | 1.57
Yoshi | 6 | 11 | 7.5 | 7.63 | 1.65
Falco | 7 | 9 | 8 | 7.71 | 0.7
Rosalina | 6 | 10 | 7.5 | 7.75 | 1.39
Megaman | 4 | 10 | 8.5 | 8.13 | 2.03
ZSS | 7 | 9 | 8 | 8.22 | 0.63
Sonic | 7 | 11 | 8 | 8.63 | 1.22
Mario | 8 | 10 | 9 | 8.88 | 0.6
Sheik | 7 | 10 | 9 | 9.11 | 0.87
Pikachu | 6 | 10 | 9 | 9.11 | 1.2
Fox | 7 | 10 | 9 | 9.13 | 0.93

 

[LIQUID12A]

Bold claim incoming.

I'm willing to say that we still go even with Robin or maybe even have a small advantage after his buffs. That's insane, but let me elaborate.

Robin still has massive issues with missiles and CS, which keep him at bay and can interrupt random Arcfires or Thunder charges, boosting momentum in Samus' favor. What Robin has been given has compulsively made Robin mains go for throws. And Robin's throw has baaaaaad range. Sure, it's not as bad as ours, but it's very easily punishable on whiff with an fsmash or even CS if you're quick enough. And with how common Wind Jab is now with the buffs(which gave Robin a sort of hoo-hah) the recovery on that is just as punishable as well if they get careless with it. Overall, Robin has become better at close range, but it's a double edged sword when abused. The pressure Samus can apply with missiles, CS and attacks such as uair can be a bit hard for Robin to handle as well, but give Robin a free moment and he can easily KO.

So at worst, even, at best, slight advantage. I have post patch footage incoming if you want to see more.

 

[zeldasmash]

Robin still has a lot of trouble trying to get near Samus as missles and Zair keep her at bay and his mobility really doesn't help matters. It is more even now though because Robin is much better up close now with him basically having Hoo Ha and his Levi Uair is very scary. But Robin trying to approach is extremely difficult. I think it's 50:50/55:45 in Samus' favor.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I believe you guys are overrating missiles a bit. All you really have to do is shield them, jump over them or attack them.

 

[S.P.A.D.]

Yes, but that slows the opponent down is what I think they're getting at. Missiles are great at stopping people in there tracks if they have an issue with gaining momentum (Read: Ness, Robin, etc.) and can slow them down enough to net you, the Samus, a few more breathing seconds to stop him again.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

The problem with that is that they're slowed down less than the duration of missiles. They're not great for that. At best they're a poking tool or a landing trap.

 

[Tonetta]

I've been working out the Samus vs Pikachu matchup a bit, and found that properly timed zairs will beat out pikachu's who try to spam thunder jolt for spacing/zoning. The two common uses of this are ledge dropping into a jump zair for recovery against the pikas that love to spam the jolt all over the stage when you're on the ledge (all of them) and rising sh zair against falling jolt. the 1% will eliminate the jolt, and will continue on to hit the pika if you are in range and you can get the full 4% out of it. You can do the same thing with Fair or properly timed tilts but if they're not stuck in jolt animation you're probably going to get punished for these.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

You can cancel it with any aerial actually. When projectiles cancel out attacks it isn't carried over to the opponent.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Missiles are admittedly not the best thing in the world, but when the opposition has no quick means of getting around them, they're powerful tools. That's why I say we go even with Robin. The only way for him to get around missiles is having an Arcthunder or Thoron ready. When he's being pelted with missiles, that's hard to do, even with platform assistance, as one can easily follow up and pressure from below with something like Uair or create passive pressure with a full power Charge Shot in the back, which cancels out Arcthunder and may or may not go through Thoron after the patch. Going back to missiles again, Robin's only immediate countermeasure against them is a simple Thunder spell. Spamming that repeatedly just to counter missile usage gimps him later when he actually NEEDS that tome for pressure since it'll run out and he leaves himself at the mercy of whatever you want.