Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

Afro Smash · Jul 17, 2015

You gotta dash powershield through the Lloid rocket, Villagers grab is kinda bad like ours so you dont need to fear it too much though be wary, after that he doesnt have space to safely do much you can shield grab most of his aerials or SH AD in to him. Also yeah pester hm with Homing Missiles, if he pockets youre free to use CS, if not they can be a nice way to control airspace

Xygonn · Jul 17, 2015

Squaddle said:
Can we talk about the villager matchup? As it is I think it's very unfun, and I really hope there's a more reliable way of dealing with defensive villagers than just going to time, because I haven't found one yet... and I'm really impatient and can't be doing with waiting them out.

So zair goes through their projectiles which is nice, and proper spacing lets it go through both a lloid and a slingshot. Villager's bair is just a bit too fast and far reaching, though, to the point that you have to be perfect with you timing or it'll knock you out of the zair animation. Our tether grab also means that we don't have to wait out their tree, as we can safely grab them if they're trying to use the tree as cover to shield them while they spam projectiles. Morph ball bombs are unfortunately not as great of an edgeguarding tool as you'd hope, as one balloon will eat the bomb without affecting the villager, so I don't think it's really worth attempting to gimp their recovery unless they're stalling at the ledge.

Actually netting that KO is a pain, though, hence why so many of my matches with high-level villagers end in a stalemate. We can't ever really get close enough to f-smash or Up-B OoS, their aerials out-prioritize bair and up-air due to range, speed, and lingering hitboxes, recovery gimping isn't an option because of how safe balloon trip is, and Charge shot can either be pocketed or is flat out negated by even stale Lloids (WHY). Its just plain frustrating.

Here's my 2 cents with villager as my #2. Vs. a defensive villager, it is just going to go to time. Deal with it. Try to get a lead to get them aggressive. Villager has too many good tools to poke at us if we are being aggressive. Homing missile spam is just going to have to be part of the gameplan. The good news is they will usually space where you can combo HM to CS and SM to jump CS. If they ever pocket a homing missile, punish with CS. Fair bair and lloid are easy enough to deal with if you aren't trying to get close and combo. Try to push in though.... It's just really tough.

This might sound silly, but crouch. This will throw off the villager because normally he gets to autocancel his aerials against samus and hit her in the head. If you crouch he is forced into landing lag versions of fair and bair. You can punish weak hits with dtilt even if you get hit because of the knockback reduction from crouching. Furthermore if you shield a fair or bair that doesn't autocancel you can grab villager. So conditioning villager to aim lower will help a lot in this MU.

As always UpB oos is important. You have to punish dair with upb oos. You can't grab that.

Remember that you can dash attack through lloid right as it comes out. This will help with that last bit of approach. Punish a villager that tries to deploy lloid when too close.

Uair is really good. You can actually kill the bullet from the slingshot with uair. It's not super reliable because slingshot is a fairly fast projectile, but often when villager is following lloid to deliver a fair or bair, SH uair can chew through the projectile and hit villager.

I hope this helps a little bit, but I've got nothing for you on actually forcing the match to go fast. We actually have a slightly better far away game than villager so it pays for us to stay back. If you let him space you in the mid range with you trying to push through the wall, you are just gonna get punished.

JAZZ_ · Jul 19, 2015

Ok I dont know what happened to Yoshi recently but more and more people have been using him and I cant even set up anything against this friggin dino. any advice for the a yoshi match up? defense options, approaches, anything at all would help

KayJay · Jul 19, 2015

Against Yoshi's jumping Up B approach: Dash underneath and punish him with Full Hop U-Air.
If he does Up B Eggs on the ground, punish with Z-Air.
We don't have to approach, because if he lets us charge our beam, he loses options so he has to approach.

Zylach · Jul 19, 2015

Not a fan of facing Villager as he can outcamp Samus. Samus just has to be patient, know when she can go in, and take full advantage of it. Unfortunately, Villager's nair makes it difficult to combo him and he can't be gimped at all. Plus he can pocket Samus' stuff which isn't a huge threat if Samus only uses CS to punish what she knows she can punish but it's still a threat and should be respected.

I'd give this a:

45:55

KenMeister · Jul 19, 2015

KayJay said:
Against Yoshi's jumping Up B approach: Dash underneath and punish him with Full Hop U-Air.
If he does Up B Eggs on the ground, punish with Z-Air.
We don't have to approach, because if he lets us charge our beam, he loses options so he has to approach.

Do our usual combos work on him? Namely nair>nair>bair for example?

DungeonMaster · Jul 20, 2015

@

JAZZ_ Yoshi vs Samus I quite dislike because the matchup exemplifies all of Sakurai's bias in design. It's can be an extremely frustrating venture against a good Yoshi because you'll see things that intuitively you feel are just "wrong". It's a showcase of how bad and bias a designer he is. There's no other way to put it in polite conversation.
You can't trade, just forget about it. All of Yoshi's attacks have priority, he has big generous hitboxes that all connect and link well together and shield him from exposing his hurtbox. If they just hit buttons and you just hit buttons, they're going to win. Don't just hit buttons and spit hitboxes, you will get murdered.
His f-smash and up-smash have invincibility frames. Never forget this.
Yoshi's grab is actually just fast enough to grab Samus out of many of her moves. His dash grab, unlike his standing grab, is quite fast, as opposed to Samus' which gets worse.
Things that you think should work but just simply don't because Sakuria's a sob:
up-B vs. Yoshi bomb. Your "high priority" move - forget about it. You only chase Yoshi in low orbit, once he starts really flying high, you're not going to win short of a miracle landing our tiny invincibility frames at absurdly tight timings. Same for aerials. Stay grounded, charge your shot.
Yoshi f-air is a massive disjoint, like crazy huge you can't challenge it offstage at all. It almost always spikes as opposed to sourpot, it's pretty much everything we would want in our d-air. Because of this you're only ever going to recover very very low. Don't spit a missile and pray our useless projectile will do something, There's literally no point in trying to recover horizontally, high. You're going to repeat this cycle over rand over again because this is what Sakurai prescribed as your only option. And his b-air can still stage spike you recovering low so you need bomb mixup.
Unfortunately the converse is not true, Yoshi can freely recover to the stage whenever he wants because of his super-armor jump. He's almost impossible to gimp, and you should only try for a spike if he is only just barely going to make it back to stage. Even then an egg during recovery, which nicely covers his hurbox, may ruin your attempt, most likely. He basically gets back to the stage for free. You're going to charge your shot #1, then drop bombs at the ledge and charge shot him when he tries to land on-stage.
His command grab means sitting in shield is a recipe for disaster, so you can't reliably punish with up-B out of shield, also his landing lag is so low that in many cases you'll find up-B clanking with a stupid 3 frame jab that always perfectly links and has setups out of it.
From what I can tell, every one of Yoshi's multi-hits link on Samus flawlessly, and I honestly don't know or understand why or what has been programmed in the game that allows me to never escape them. The Yoshi b-air, is pretty much what we would want for our own multihits, long-lasting, huge hitbox, nice disjoint, and at any angle of approach or target vector everything connects, all of the time. The d-air, same sort of property, no matter what I try, whether I'm in the air, on the ground, at the edge of the attack, it just "works". I would really like to sit down with Sakurai one day and ask him how he could with a straight face say "I have no favourites" and then compare the multi-hit properties of Samus' arsenal vs Yoshi's.
Angle your f-smash, f-tilt down, always. Yoshi has tons of frames where he crouches and his hurtbox becomes very flat, just take my word for it and do it and avoid raging like a lunatic when it misses for no good goddamn reason.

Is this one of our worst matchups? It could be, at times it certainly seems that way. Your only, only saving grace is land-based moves out-range Yoshi's and he has no hard-coded straight up counter to CS. You're going to throw out a lot of spot-dodge, and a lot of SH-AD. That's just the way it's going to be until we get a real patch.

Zylach · Jul 20, 2015

DungeonMaster said:
@ JAZZ_ Yoshi vs Samus I quite dislike because the matchup exemplifies all of Sakurai's bias in design. It's can be an extremely frustrating venture against a good Yoshi because you'll see things that intuitively you feel are just "wrong". It's a showcase of how bad and bias a designer he is. There's no other way to put it in polite conversation.
You can't trade, just forget about it. All of Yoshi's attacks have priority, he has big generous hitboxes that all connect and link well together and shield him from exposing his hurtbox. If they just hit buttons and you just hit buttons, they're going to win. Don't just hit buttons and spit hitboxes, you will get murdered.
His f-smash and up-smash have invincibility frames. Never forget this.
Yoshi's grab is actually just fast enough to grab Samus out of many of her moves. His dash grab, unlike his standing grab, is quite fast, as opposed to Samus' which gets worse.
Things that you think should work but just simply don't because Sakuria's a sob:
up-B vs. Yoshi bomb. Your "high priority" move - forget about it. You only chase Yoshi in low orbit, once he starts really flying high, you're not going to win short of a miracle landing our tiny invincibility frames at absurdly tight timings. Same for aerials. Stay grounded, charge your shot.
Yoshi f-air is a massive disjoint, like crazy huge you can't challenge it offstage at all. It almost always spikes as opposed to sourpot, it's pretty much everything we would want in our d-air. Because of this you're only ever going to recover very very low. Don't spit a missile and pray our useless projectile will do something, There's literally no point in trying to recover horizontally, high. You're going to repeat this cycle over rand over again because this is what Sakurai prescribed as your only option. And his b-air can still stage spike you recovering low so you need bomb mixup.
Unfortunately the converse is not true, Yoshi can freely recover to the stage whenever he wants because of his super-armor jump. He's almost impossible to gimp, and you should only try for a spike if he is only just barely going to make it back to stage. Even then an egg during recovery, which nicely covers his hurbox, may ruin your attempt, most likely. He basically gets back to the stage for free. You're going to charge your shot #1, then drop bombs at the ledge and charge shot him when he tries to land on-stage.
His command grab means sitting in shield is a recipe for disaster, so you can't reliably punish with up-B out of shield, also his landing lag is so low that in many cases you'll find up-B clanking with a stupid 3 frame jab that always perfectly links and has setups out of it.
From what I can tell, every one of Yoshi's multi-hits link on Samus flawlessly, and I honestly don't know or understand why or what has been programmed in the game that allows me to never escape them. The Yoshi b-air, is pretty much what we would want for our own multihits, long-lasting, huge hitbox, nice disjoint, and at any angle of approach or target vector everything connects, all of the time. The d-air, same sort of property, no matter what I try, whether I'm in the air, on the ground, at the edge of the attack, it just "works". I would really like to sit down with Sakurai one day and ask him how he could with a straight face say "I have no favourites" and then compare the multi-hit properties of Samus' arsenal vs Yoshi's.
Angle your f-smash, f-tilt down, always. Yoshi has tons of frames where he crouches and his hurtbox becomes very flat, just take my word for it and do it and avoid raging like a lunatic when it misses for no good goddamn reason.

Is this one of our worst matchups? It could be, at times it certainly seems that way. Your only, only saving grace is land-based moves out-range Yoshi's and he has no hard-coded straight up counter to CS. You're going to throw out a lot of spot-dodge, and a lot of SH-AD. That's just the way it's going to be until we get a real patch.

Usually, I contradict folks when they point out Sakurai being a biased dev but, in this case, I just can't contradict this. The dichotomy in character power here is staggering. Yoshi, imo, is a braindead character who can throw out attacks whenever he wants and never get punished for them. Meanwhile, he has no weaknesses to offset this like Sheik and Pika have for example. He has no trouble killing, no trouble approaching, no trouble comboing, no trouble recovering, no trouble avoiding punishes, no trouble against campers because of eggs, and no trouble against rushdown characters because of his frame 3 jab and the fact that he can angle his eggs to pressure their approach.

Look at Samus and tell me that this is a character that got just as much love as Yoshi did. In comparison, she was ignored. In fact, she was made worse in a lot of areas from brawl and she was terrible in brawl. Nair is now ****. Jab is still ****. Her fsmash was given a sweetspot whose hitbox is jank. She has nowhere near the approach options of Yoshi, nowhere near the approach stuffing options of Yoshi, and yet they have the gall to screw up her ftilt in one patch and give her a tiny usmash buff in another. That says, to me, that they think she's fairly well balanced and only needs a tiny bit of tweaking to be made perfectly balanced. It's an insult how ignorant the balance team must be to not see very simple dichotomies like Samus vs. Yoshi.

Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ · Jul 22, 2015

oh boy.....

"You can't trade, just forget about it. All of Yoshi's attacks have priority"
You're going to have to be more clear here. All of Yoshis attacks have normal priority.

"down B stuff"
Spotdodge, free punish

"His f-smash and up-smash have invincibility frames. Never forget this."
Partial invincibility CS beats both

"Yoshi's grab is actually just fast enough to grab Samus out of many of her moves. His dash grab, unlike his standing grab, is quite fast, as opposed to Samus' which gets worse."
It does 7% and give some stage position. not gonna end the world. lol Still an easy punish if whiffed.

"Yoshi can freely recover to the stage whenever he wants because of his super-armor jump"
Wrongo. It's heavy armor and is beaten by high knockback attacks like CS or bair. On top of that, anytime you read him using eggs at all (on or offstage) is a free CS because the entire move last close to a whole second and beats eggs.

"His command grab means sitting in shield is a recipe for disaster"
21 frames of startup. Reactable to most people.

"also his landing lag is so low that in many cases you'll find up-B clanking with a stupid 3 frame jab"
Simply wrong. The only time you can't up B OoS his aerials is if you're too far away when he lands.

"He has no trouble killing"
He has no kill options against sheild, his kill moves are laggy enough to be punished and most setups aren't reliable (and they don't beat Sheild).

"no trouble comboing"
His combo starters aren't good in neutral and are small in quantity. Samus is much better in the combo game.

"no trouble against rushdown characters because of his frame 3 jab and the fact that he can angle his eggs to pressure their approach."
Samus has a frame 3 jab.. (ya ya doesn't work at low%s blah blah still works eventually), and frankly his sheild game is limited like Samus because of his **** grab. He doesn't get mauled over but it's not ez breezy or anything. oh and eggs are easy if shielded or avoided. They wont keep anyone away unless they are incredibly slow.

edit: Here's a gif of Yoshi's "massively disjointed" fair.

KayJay · Jul 22, 2015

That's all theory talk. Do you know Slice? You know, one of the best if not the best Yoshi in Europe. I did practice matches and also tourney matches against him. You write it down as if we always have a fully charged CS in our pocket. This is nowhere near the case against Yoshi in that calibar. He won't give you much breath to charge our beam. Most of the time Yoshi will constantly pressure us with perfect spaced aerials and wacebounce Bs. He will always try to offstage us, offstage we can't charge. As for ledge guarding, if B-Air really destroys his super armor than this will change things for me in this matchup. Have to try that.

DungeonMaster · Jul 22, 2015

Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ said:
"You can't trade, just forget about it. All of Yoshi's attacks have priority"
You're going to have to be more clear here. All of Yoshis attacks have normal priority.

Grass is always greener on the other side. I can give very detailed and specific examples and I'm using "priority" in the broader sense, here are a few:
Let's take n-air. Yoshi's n-air is a big, lingering hitbox. His hurtbox does not start at his feet, it is extremely well shielded by hitboxes during the whole portion of the animation. His arse, his legs, his feet, everything is protected by hitbox. Only his head is not.
Samus' n-air is the categorical opposite. We have a postage stamp hitbox that is out for a few frames and our hurtbox is literally everything you see on screen including everything up to the ankle prior to the hitbox coming out.
Let's take b-air. Yoshi's b-air has huge lingering hitboxes which has his tail continuously moving through it. Your chances of hitting the tail hurtbox are infinitesimal. His body hurtbox is shielded from attacks coming at angles above and below his
horizontal because the tail swing extends both up and down. You cannot say, dash attack Yoshi's b-air during the move even if Yoshi is not level with your attack.
Samus' b-air - a good move - has a small, quick hitbox, purely horizontal and both the top portion of her body and the bottom dangling leg are all available targets for anything but a dead-on attack. The stupid dangling leg hurbox is the reason so many dash attacks beat out b-air.
While it's nice to say "partial invincibility" and "partial super-armor" are beaten by fully charged shot the proper wording is "Yoshi's f-smash, up-smash are immune to all but one of Samus moves and Samus *can't trade hits* ".
Down-B is not a free punish. There are stupid little ground pound stars that protect him as a final hurtbox. I don't know how many times I've landed a grab on him only to be negated by stars (I know the matchup spacing now...).

21 frames of startup. Reactable to most people.

Not out of shield. If he's jumping in and I shield my options are nil. He can freely mixup to command grab or aerial. To be clear: he can pick command grab or high priority autocancel aerial. If he gets the appropriate approach angle I can't even up-air OOS.

Simply wrong. The only time you can't up B OoS his aerials is if you're too far away when he lands.

N-air, f-air and b-air can all land too far for up-B OOS and his landing lag is 11 on the n-air, 17 on the f-air (which autocancels to 4). He can freely mixup to cross up n-air and the f-air disjoint is so huge that he can pull back and away before any punish is possible at all. This sucks rocks man. No other way to put it.

His combo starters aren't good in neutral and are small in quantity. Samus is much better in the combo game.

On this point, I agree.

The fact that you can hit yoshi's legs with a bigger disjoint on his f-air disjoint doesn't really help us much. It's cute to know however, neat pic.

Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ · Jul 22, 2015

None of those are priority. It would be more fitting to say disjoints or something.

"Let's take n-air. Yoshi's n-air is a big, lingering hitbox. His hurtbox does not start at his feet, it is extremely well shielded by hitboxes during the whole portion of the animation."
No, only the burst frames are decent. The lingering hitboxes are tiny and don't protect him at all. I can consistently beat it with Samus' up air

"Yoshi's f-smash, up-smash are immune to all but one of Samus moves and Samus *can't trade hits*"
Alright I'll list other ways to deal with it. grab, sheild, Grab OoS, waiting for the hitbox to miss. Not sure why you're trying to trade with a smash attack anyway. What's going through your head? "Smash attacks are high priority attacks on most characters because it deals high damage, usually accompanied with high knockback too. My goal is to trade with it" ?????????????????? but hey maybe I'm wrong. Is there a list of smash attacks on other characters that we are better off going for trades? I'd like to know.

Down B is a free punish. If you spot dodge you'll avoid the stars. If you're outside of the star range wait for them to go away. Still enough time.

"bair stuff"
If they're using it off a short hop than sheild and punish. The move has extra hitlag on sheilds for no reason and big landing lag. You can punish it with a charged Fsmash. lol If he uses it while you're airborn it's hard to deal with, but airdodge works. Meh tbh it's generally overshadowed in usefullness by his other aerials.

"Not out of shield. If he's jumping in and I shield my options are nil."
Spotdodge

Lastly I'll talk about fair because it is a great option but has some less than obvious counterplay:
As you know. if Yoshi spaces this move it's pretty much unpunishable. But there's one flaw here, which is the large startup. If it's started he has committed to it your goal is to make sure he doesn't space it correctly. The 2 options here are run in and sheild, or hang back and wait for a whiff. It's not fail proof or a free punish, it's just the gameplan to counter it (other than CS).

Oh actually you can also hit him during startup almost forgot about that. Viable option but I can understand why someone would not go for it.

edit: missed Kayjay's comment hope this fits:

KayJay said:
Snippy snip

Oo didn't mean to make it sound like it's easy or favorable for Samus. I just get carried away on Yoshi because there are a lot of misinformation on every character board and often times people seem to believe Yoshi is untouchable as if he's better than Sheik. It gets tiring after a while. >.> Part of the hard life for Samus is relying on CS to deal with things imo (not just on Yoshi)

Afro Smash · Jul 22, 2015

Lol another Yoshi main tryna say his character isn't op to make sure Sakurai doesn't nerf smfh.

>Aerial command grab that can be b reversed
>Dair that deals 32% or basically breaks shields
>Down B also breaks shields
>Nair Oos to escape pressure, nair to break combos in general
>Frame 3 Jab that combos in to smash attacks
>Eggs to aid approach and camp
>Incredible aerial momentum allowing easy pressure with fadeback Fairs
>Near impossible to edgeguard

Sounds better than Sheik to me :^] can't wait for him to be nerfed

Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ · Jul 22, 2015

To be fair he doesn't have to be op to be nerfed. Sakurai only cares about the mid level players.

Hey now. Nair OoS is good and all but Screw Attack is bae. <3

Down B is great until people spot dodge.

The edgeguard thing is character dependant. Samus' options against eggs are zair and CS. Also keep in mind if Yoshi recovers low he can't auto sweetspot the ledge. Samus has tools to edgeguard Yoshi. Just rememer the entire egg throw animation lasts 53 frames (during which he can only drift left and right), so that's when you can hit him. It'll usually require some sort of read, but you might be able to get CS on reaction.

He has good traits and is a good character but is not impossible.

leiraD · Jul 23, 2015

Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ said:
To be fair he doesn't have to be op to be nerfed. Sakurai only cares about the mid level players.

Hey now. Nair OoS is good and all but Screw Attack is bae. <3

Down B is great until people spot dodge.

The edgeguard thing is character dependant. Samus' options against eggs are zair and CS. Also keep in mind if Yoshi recovers low he can't auto sweetspot the ledge. Samus has tools to edgeguard Yoshi. Just rememer the entire egg throw animation lasts 53 frames (during which he can only drift left and right), so that's when you can hit him. It'll usually require some sort of read, but you might be able to get CS on reaction.

He has good traits and is a good character but is not impossible.

Yeah, its a hard match, but definitely not impossible. I've taken several games from KDB, the best Florida Yoshi, but he definitely a good character. IMO, 32% for dair is excessive...

Afro Smash · Jul 23, 2015

Yeah I was just playing devils advocate (im sure you could tell Shado) but the Dair is actually something I'd want nerfed, it beats Shielding, Spot Dodging and deals up to 32%, and it's not even that punishable on whiff especially with how far he can drift with it

leiraD · Jul 23, 2015

The rest of his moveset, I think, is pretty fair and I don't really think it would be right to nerf him beyond that. I'm more interested on lower tier characters getting buffed than high tier characters getting nerfed... Except Rosaluma... Too much easy garbage that she gets rewarded for.

Xygonn · Jul 23, 2015

Afro Smash said:
Yeah I was just playing devils advocate (im sure you could tell Shado) but the Dair is actually something I'd want nerfed, it beats Shielding, Spot Dodging and deals up to 32%, and it's not even that punishable on whiff especially with how far he can drift with it

24 frames of landing lag is pretty punishable. That's easily a fsmash OoS. I love when yoshi uses dair or bair on shield.

Afro Smash · Jul 23, 2015

What shield? aint no shield left after a Dair, and they can glide along the ground a bit after the move

JAZZ_ · Jul 23, 2015

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has trouble with yoshi. FG for me is filled with um for some god dang reason.

Hark17ball · Jul 23, 2015

leiraD said:
The rest of his moveset, I think, is pretty fair and I don't really think it would be right to nerf him beyond that. I'm more interested on lower tier characters getting buffed than high tier characters getting nerfed... Except Rosaluma... Too much easy garbage that she gets rewarded for.

So much this. Higher tiers I feel are great! Let's just slowly buff the bottom of the barrel. Ike got a great little patch set hopefully Samus, Robin, Zelda, WFT and DK are next!

Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ · Jul 23, 2015

There are a couple different situations that happen with Yoshi's dair. First is a shorthop at ground level or on a lower platform (like BF/SV). This wont autocancel leaving Yoshi with full lag, but there's a landing hitbox that might shield stab (which is usually what Yoshi players are going for I think?). Not sure if you can angle shields down during the move, but if you can that's what you should do.

The other one is autocancelling it on high platforms or off a ledge hop. The move ends frame 41 and autocancels frame 50 during which he can land behind you or drift away. (against Samus I'd probably drift away cuz Up B OoS). If it connects it can also combo into up air at low-mid %s. However this uses his DJ and has a lot of startup. If he's hit offstage before the move comes out he might just lose his stock. High risk high reward.

Afro Smash said:
Yeah I was just playing devils advocate (im sure you could tell Shado) but the Dair is actually something I'd want nerfed, it beats Shielding, Spot Dodging and deals up to 32%, and it's not even that punishable on whiff especially with how far he can drift with it

I know you like to mess.

I'd mention that rolling beats SH dair but..... Having a really good option against shield is warranted imo considering he has the worst standing grab and the worst throws, but that's just my opinion.

Also break more shields as Samus than Yoshi. I think she does better against shields.

Grambles · Jul 23, 2015

Because he's a lot like Fox, good defensive play is your best bet against him. His regular grab leads to nothing, though his b-reverse is really good.

His biggest weaknesses is being walled out, and spaced to hell. Zair eats through eggs and is important to keep in mind, as that and CS is going burst any egg walls he tries to put up. His up-B has a bit of cooldown to it anyway. His Fair, Dair and Bair have enough punishable landing lag too. And he's only going to get that 32% d-air if he SH's it.

As far as edge-guarding goes, his 2nd jump doesn't snap to the ledge easily, and his up-B is punishable if you can get around the egg. CS knock him out of his 2nd jump at 45%, F-smash, up-tilt, d-tilt will knock him out at 60%. B-air at 70%, d-air at 75% and n-air, S.missile at 100%

Edit: Oh yeah, not to mention a well-placed footstool will ruin Yoshi's day

Stay grounded in neutral, and don't approach too much. It'll be a much more manageable fight.

Maining the both of them, it's a good showing more of Samus' weaknesses, rather than Yoshi's strengths. He's a great character, but there's a reason no one's placing really high with him in tourneys.

I'm also on the low-tier buff bandwagon.

Vyrnx · Jul 26, 2015

What are Samus's toughest MU's right now? The first that come to my mind are Fox, Yoshi, Mario. Maybe Sheik.

Afro Smash · Jul 26, 2015

Personally I'd say Sheik/Fox/Pika/Mega Man with Mario and ZSS not far behind

Vyrnx · Jul 26, 2015

Why is Mega Man one of the worst? I hadn't noticed probably because I rarely play any. And I completely forgot to mention Pika in my last post

Afro Smash · Jul 26, 2015

His pellets shut down basically all of our options if we're without our charge shot, and regardless if he's hitting us it's super easy to condition us in to whatever he wants with the pellets

leiraD · Jul 27, 2015

For me, Fox/Pika/Mario/Megaman (in no order) and olimar can be pretty tough too. With Sheik, I feel a slight disadvantage, but not too bad. I think that match up is highly stage dependent and platforms are a big help.

Afro Smash · Jul 27, 2015

I'm gonna post my opinion on every match up again, I think it would be good to have full match up chart just as a quick referential guide. Feel free to post your own, what I think would be best though is to arrange a time on Skype for us all to discuss them

@

Xygonn
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Depth_
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Tonetta
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leiraD
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DungeonMaster
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KayJay
@RoachCake
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Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ
@Tumultus
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Scream
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Boney

Are all the people I know to be good/active (sorry if i've forgotten anyone), anyone else who feels they can add to the discussion are welcome to join as well, just join the Skype group here http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-skype-group-update.393925/

In case that never comes to fruition however

vs