Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[Afro Smash]

But is he stuck in shield longer after being hit I think is what xygonn was suggesting

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Nope. Seems identical.

 

[Afro Smash]

Ait, I mean with for as long as Yoshi can stay in the air people should never let Shields get broken tbh, can easily stall to let it regen

 

[Xygonn]

I just tested Yoshi's shield. Seems to be no difference in damage dealt or health depleted over time.

Great, looks like I'm gonna have to test SM -> CS against some different characters and see if this really is a guaranteed shield break.

GFY to show how tight together the shots were, Yoshi definitely had a full shield:

 

[leiraD]

Anybody here have experience against a Zig Zag shot Duck Hunt with the heavy Gunmen? I swear the match just seems impossible. It was my first time playing against him so I didn't have enough time to really let the match sink in but it seems pretty bad. His projectile wall decimates ours. Samus is too slow to close the gap efficiently got hit a bunch of times trying to air dodge through the Can and he could just reverse it's momentum and catch me out of it. You can't go higher because it's super risky and trying to shield it will just eat like 70% of your shield. You have to deal with the clay pigeons that can change speed and have lingering hitboxes while also dealing with the Gunmen that are just a ticking bomb for an opening. Zair won't beat the pigeons or the can and it's an unfavorable trade.
I changed to Pit and did much better but ultimately still lost 5-2. It just seems Samus doesn't have the mobility to safely by pass Zig Zag shot while putting pressure on Duck Hunt.

Wondering if anybody has experience with the match, because it really seemed like a really bad disadvantage.

The matchup is definitely a tough one. For me, the biggest problem with the match up is the inability to leverage charge shots because dhd can wall off so effectively. That being said, I think that at high level play, Samus out-camps dhd, which makes the match winnable. Sounds cliche, but their reliance on their ability to effectively wall us off can also be a huge vulnerability. That's because their capability to wall off is not absolute.


During early frames, a full CS will go through the clay pigeon, and can fit under the first few bounces of the can. DHD doesn't have a good way to respond to these projectile approaches because he's in cool down immediately after using those attacks. That being said, getting the CS to the initial CP or can frames means that you have to read the use of the move or be fairly close to him. Ironically, because DHD players have to learn to get into a rhythm to use all of those move in sequence, you'll often be able to learn the player's particular usage pattern.


Once you connect a charge shot or two on him, he'll start reconditioning and attempting more approaches, likely SH neutral-a, dash attack, or charge into a grab and try to set up a combo string while also managing can bounces. Just power shield the cans and get ready to dodge the impending DA or grab and then punish with a tilt/jab or power shield the SH neutral-a and punish with upboos.


Hope that's helpful!

 

[Boney]

The matchup is definitely a tough one. For me, the biggest problem with the match up is the inability to leverage charge shots because dhd can wall off so effectively. That being said, I think that at high level play, Samus out-camps dhd, which makes the match winnable. Sounds cliche, but their reliance on their ability to effectively wall us off can also be a huge vulnerability. That's because their capability to wall off is not absolute.


During early frames, a full CS will go through the clay pigeon, and can fit under the first few bounces of the can. DHD doesn't have a good way to respond to these projectile approaches because he's in cool down immediately after using those attacks. That being said, getting the CS to the initial CP or can frames means that you have to read the use of the move or be fairly close to him. Ironically, because DHD players have to learn to get into a rhythm to use all of those move in sequence, you'll often be able to learn the player's particular usage pattern.


Once you connect a charge shot or two on him, he'll start reconditioning and attempting more approaches, likely SH neutral-a, dash attack, or charge into a grab and try to set up a combo string while also managing can bounces. Just power shield the cans and get ready to dodge the impending DA or grab and then punish with a tilt/jab or power shield the SH neutral-a and punish with upboos.


Hope that's helpful!

Right, that strategy will help against vanilla duck hunt. Customs is a whole different struggle. His heavy gunmen can shield him from any projectiles. I suppose when he uses them is when you need to close the distance. Which means you're never gonna have your charge shot with you. The regular can isn't that bad and you can easily maneuver around it and the pigeon clay, but the zig zag can makes it impossible for samus to move through it. And you can't just shield it because it can eat through your shield and hit you regardless. Short hop airdodge is too slow to go through it and that will hit you with 25-30%
The only advantage is that we can live stupidly long and he'll have trouble koing, relying on up tilt, back air and throws in high %

 

[Eskelsen]

Does anyone have any solid knowledge on the Diddy MU? He seems to have far superior frame data and hit boxes. How do you deal with an aggressive Diddy? I know Samus has incredible tools for edge guarding him, but we lose in every other aspect from my own personal experience. I literally have to choose the correct option almost every single time, if I want to win, or hope for him to mess up. Im also not talking about for glory Diddys, I'm talking about tournament level players. I can seem to scrape wins here and there, while also keeping matches close, but I see a clear disadvantage. Maybe I'm just bad, but I'd like to know some of your guys thoughts.

 

[leiraD]

Right, that strategy will help against vanilla duck hunt. Customs is a whole different struggle. His heavy gunmen can shield him from any projectiles. I suppose when he uses them is when you need to close the distance. Which means you're never gonna have your charge shot with you. The regular can isn't that bad and you can easily maneuver around it and the pigeon clay, but the zig zag can makes it impossible for samus to move through it. And you can't just shield it because it can eat through your shield and hit you regardless. Short hop airdodge is too slow to go through it and that will hit you with 25-30%
The only advantage is that we can live stupidly long and he'll have trouble koing, relying on up tilt, back air and throws in high %

Oh gotcha, I misunderstood. Maybe try powershileding the zzcan so you don't take the shield damage, but I have very little experience with customs, so can't help you too much there. Sorry man.

 

[Xygonn]

I know I said I would say anything about MUs because I'm not at a high enough level of play. But against non-custom DHD:

Missile spam shuts DHD down imo. Super, regular, super, regular, super, regular. He's too slow to punish us and he's probably busy camping. He has a hard time putting on shield pressure and his grabs don't set up any guarunteed kills. DHD has no way to stall his fall, and his upb has a set distance and max height. He can only control it horizontally, and he can't do anything out of it.

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ Xygonn in my experience regular missile spam does not shut non-custom DH down, it's the other way around, he can shut our missile spam down. He can release his can while jumping and throw out a disk an instant later, the can keeps moving above your missile line and the disk intercepts the missile. You get locked into shield quick and that's all bad. You're going to need z-air vs. a good DH, and lots of it. The biggest advantage is duck hunt's smash attacks are terrible and Samus is floaty. If he f-smashes, hold up. If he up-smashes hold away, if he d-smashes hold into him. You can live to 200+. He's going to need to use an aerial to kill.

 

[leiraD]

I've been wondering some of the characters I play against are really as difficult a match-up as I feel they are. I'd like to here from other Samus players who you feel that some of your toughest match-ups are. Thoughts?

 

[Afro Smash]

I'd have to say Pikachu and Fox are definitely my most difficult, though I find Mario/Olimar/Sonic quite difficult too

Pikachu because Samus struggles most when characters are right in her face, and quick attack allows pikachu to be there basically whenever he wants. And he's really small, and even smaller after landing a lot of the time so its easy to whiff attacks, and finally his recovery is amazing so we can't really edgeguard him, and offstage is where i pick up a ton of kills. Also his F Smash has obnoxiously low end lag for how powerful it is, doesnt really affect the MU just annoys me.

Fox again has the speed to be constantly in your face, and his relector means you can't ever force him to engage with projectile pressure, so he can weave in and out at will. The biggest problem I find though is when he pops us up in the air we are basically at his mercy, he can empty hop to up tilts, or full jump up air, and if we airdodge fall back to the ground to up tilt essentially creating a frame trap if youre without a jump, sh bair will autocancel so he can immediately dash attack after he lands if we airdodge, he's fast enough to cover bomb momentum shifts, its just hell tryna land

 

[leiraD]

I'd have to say Pikachu and Fox are definitely my most difficult, though I find Mario/Olimar/Sonic quite difficult too

Pikachu because Samus struggles most when characters are right in her face, and quick attack allows pikachu to be there basically whenever he wants. And he's really small, and even smaller after landing a lot of the time so its easy to whiff attacks, and finally his recovery is amazing so we can't really edgeguard him, and offstage is where i pick up a ton of kills. Also his F Smash has obnoxiously low end lag for how powerful it is, doesnt really affect the MU just annoys me.

Fox again has the speed to be constantly in your face, and his relector means you can't ever force him to engage with projectile pressure, so he can weave in and out at will. The biggest problem I find though is when he pops us up in the air we are basically at his mercy, he can empty hop to up tilts, or full jump up air, and if we airdodge fall back to the ground to up tilt essentially creating a frame trap if youre without a jump, sh bair will autocancel so he can immediately dash attack after he lands if we airdodge, he's fast enough to cover bomb momentum shifts, its just hell tryna land

I'm so glad you stated some of those. I've really been struggling against Mario, Olimar, and I got wrecked by a good fox the other day. I haven't played any really good Pika's but your argument for Pikachu made perfect sense and I can see how that would be difficult.

How do you feel against Shiek?

 

[Xygonn]

I know he shouldn't but good kirby's give me hell. He's small. His landing lag is annoyingly short. He is somewhat hard to gimp, and when he steals charge shot, it's annoying. His autoskims the stage so it's a super powerful ledge guard tool for him.

 

[leiraD]

I know he shouldn't but good kirby's give me hell. He's small. His landing lag is annoyingly short. He is somewhat hard to gimp, and when he steals charge shot, it's annoying. His autoskims the stage so it's a super powerful ledge guard tool for him.

I don't really have a lot of problems with Kirby until, as you stated, he steals charge shot... Then he's quite difficult.

 

[Afro Smash]

Against Sheik, early percents its really difficult and you have to try and not be disheartened by her combos and pressure, manage to get her above 50%ish though and our jab starts to true combo, so that and up b oos become really good at alleviating pressure. She has amazing frame data so shes gonna get the damage on us, but we're very heavy and she severely lacks kill options outside of vanish (which she cant land if we jump away after a d throw) i wouldnt even say bouncing fish is very powerful unless you're near a blastzone.

Overall with Sheik she kinda bodies us just cuz her frame data is that amazing, however since she cant really kill us and we're not easy to gimp we're living a long time, which means Rage Charge Shot is killing her around 80 and rage up b is killing her around 100, id say this makes it an even MU

Vs Kirby Up B Oos is a godsend, id say its an even MU

 

[leiraD]

Against Sheik, early percents its really difficult and you have to try and not be disheartened by her combos and pressure, manage to get her above 50%ish though and our jab starts to true combo, so that and up b oos become really good at alleviating pressure. She has amazing frame data so shes gonna get the damage on us, but we're very heavy and she severely lacks kill options outside of vanish (which she cant land if we jump away after a d throw) i wouldnt even say bouncing fish is very powerful unless you're near a blastzone.

Overall with Sheik she kinda bodies us just cuz her frame data is that amazing, however since she cant really kill us and we're not easy to gimp we're living a long time, which means Rage Charge Shot is killing her around 80 and rage up b is killing her around 100, id say this makes it an even MU

Vs Kirby Up B Oos is a godsend, id say its an even MU

Those were sort of my feelings on it as well, but I just wanted to hear someone else say it. I feel like she's definitely favored in the match-up, but I generally have a tougher time with Mario than Sheik.

 

[Eskelsen]

Against Sheik, early percents its really difficult and you have to try and not be disheartened by her combos and pressure, manage to get her above 50%ish though and our jab starts to true combo, so that and up b oos become really good at alleviating pressure. She has amazing frame data so shes gonna get the damage on us, but we're very heavy and she severely lacks kill options outside of vanish (which she cant land if we jump away after a d throw) i wouldnt even say bouncing fish is very powerful unless you're near a blastzone.

Overall with Sheik she kinda bodies us just cuz her frame data is that amazing, however since she cant really kill us and we're not easy to gimp we're living a long time, which means Rage Charge Shot is killing her around 80 and rage up b is killing her around 100, id say this makes it an even MU

Vs Kirby Up B Oos is a godsend, id say its an even MU

While I agree that Sheik has poor kill options against us, I strongly think that this match-up in not 50/50. Like you mentioned Sheik has great frame data and this allows her to take advantage of even the smallest of mistakes. She has great frame traps making it difficult to detach her from us when we are getting pressured and she can safely apply pressure with her almost lag-less moves. Going back to the point of poor kill options, while this is true, Sheik does have great edge guarding tools; Although, Samus is not prone to getting edge-guarded, Sheik is one of the few characters that CAN (emphasis on "can." It takes a strong Sheik player to do this, but its doable) really pressure us off stage. Assuming we play our cards right off stage and we don't get edge guarded, it's absolutely true, we can survive to very high percents giving us rage to play around with. This is what I believe makes that match-up winnable, but still not even. I am 100% open to debate, as I am not claiming to be an incredible Samus nor have i played against top level Sheiks, but I do attend tournaments where I regularly play against good Sheiks.I believe this match-up needs further dissection.

 

[Afro Smash]

yeah i recently posted in the gameplay thread a bo3 vs a v good mario, hes got amazing frame data like sheik, but better damage output and no difficulty killing with his B throw or Up Smash, and ofc that cape in his pocket to always make you hesitate firing off your Charge Shot. I find his Aerial Mobility allows for him to cross you up really well too.

@ Eskelsen I've played some good Sheik's online and Professor Pro's Sheik offline (though he doesn't really play Smash 4 as his main game) and I've always felt it was even enough, I wouldn't argue against it being in Sheik's favour however, I don't have enough tournament exp against sheik to say and obviously she's ranked #1 by everyone for a reason. Is there another reason you think it's in her favour or do you believe her amazing frame data just outweighs her bad kill power?

 

[Eskelsen]

yeah i recently posted in the gameplay thread a bo3 vs a v good mario, hes got amazing frame data like sheik, but better damage output and no difficulty killing with his B throw or Up Smash, and ofc that cape in his pocket to always make you hesitate firing off your Charge Shot. I find his Aerial Mobility allows for him to cross you up really well too.

@ Eskelsen I've played some good Sheik's online and Professor Pro's Sheik offline (though he doesn't really play Smash 4 as his main game) and I've always felt it was even enough, I wouldn't argue against it being in Sheik's favour however, I don't have enough tournament exp against sheik to say and obviously she's ranked #1 by everyone for a reason. Is there another reason you think it's in her favour or do you believe her amazing frame data just outweighs her bad kill power?

Going up against someone like professor pro definitely gives you good insight on the match-up, since he's a really strong player, but yes I do believe there are other reasons that makes this match-up difficult. Sheik also happens to have an excellent projectile. I don't want to say she can out camp us or camp us in general, but I can tell you that these needles are very disruptive overall. Her needles can disrupt our charging of the charged shot (not sure how else to say lol) along with trading with missiles and stopping some of our grounded approach options. Needles can also be lethal off stage, since it can be used to set up a bouncing fish, in the right percentages of course. I don't think you are wrong when you say it is not a completely one sided match-up, but if I had to put a number on it, as of right now, I think it's 40/60 (which really isn't as bad as I might make it sound). Perhaps we should look at this match-up from Sheik's perspective?

And yeah, Mario sounds like another tough match-up. Unfortunately i'm less experienced in this one.

 

[Afro Smash]

Yeah needle camping and disrupting can be an issue, particularly on FD, and particularly when they start sending us in to tumble. I wouldn't argue against 40/60 MU, I'll happily take that seeing as she's the best in the game (or the people who main her are the best players..). Kind of insane to think that even though she's been nerfed basically every patch she's still the best in the game, just how good was she at launch?

As for Sheik's perspective, I'd be thinking:

• Spend a lot of time in the air as to easily avoid Charge Shot with Fastfalls and Double jumps as necesseary, and to Bouncing Fish over missiles.
• Always be ready to Needle a Samus that starts charging.
• pressure with spaced f tilts and fairs since she can't up b oos or shield grab us,
• roll a lot in close quarters because our roll is amazing and it can put us in great positions to punish Samus laggier attacks
• Throw out meaty nairs and drop off fairs off stage to beat out zair recovery and condition up b, then look for ways to punish (vanish or stage spike bair)
• Crawl a lot to go under a bunch of samus' attacks (I don't see enough Sheiks do this tbh, I just realise it when my attack whiffs as they go for D Tilts)

 

[Eskelsen]

Yeah needle camping and disrupting can be an issue, particularly on FD, and particularly when they start sending us in to tumble. I wouldn't argue against 40/60 MU, I'll happily take that seeing as she's the best in the game (or the people who main her are the best players..). Kind of insane to think that even though she's been nerfed basically every patch she's still the best in the game, just how good was she at launch?

She was really good lol. To be fair, she was not nerfed super hard. I remember her up air being nerfed because it just killed at way to early percents, and in this patch her back air was nerfed. those are the major ones that i can remember off the top of my head. I think you brought up an interesting point, even if you were not being entirely serious, being that the players who play Sheik just happen to be the best players. I think there is some truth to this, if we had like a Nairo or Zero equivalent for Samus, she would be regarded as a much better character not top or high tier but at least high mid tier.

 

[leiraD]

She was really good lol. To be fair, she was not nerfed super hard. I remember her up air being nerfed because it just killed at way to early percents, and in this patch her back air was nerfed. those are the major ones that i can remember off the top of my head. I think you brought up an interesting point, even if you were not being entirely serious, being that the players who play Sheik just happen to be the best players. I think there is some truth to this, if we had like a Nairo or Zero equivalent for Samus, she would be regarded as a much better character not top or high tier but at least high mid tier.

Although I think its true that obviously if a top player played Samus, that she'd get more attention and credibility, but they obviously chose the players that they currently play because they allow the to play in a way that affords them a lot of victory scenarios. As you said, maybe they discover things could bring her up to a mid-tier level, but (from their perspective), why invest the time into a character who they don't feel that they can push nearly as far in the competitive arena. I think that in order to compete, we Samus players have to develop her metagame to a place where we have viable play options against each character, discover new techs, or hope that she gets serious buffs in subsequent patches. Just some thoughts on that.

How do you guys feel against playing other top tiers? (Diddy, Ness, Yoshi, Rosalina, ZSS, Luigi)

 

[Afro Smash]

Although I think its true that obviously if a top player played Samus, that she'd get more attention and credibility, but they obviously chose the players that they currently play because they allow the to play in a way that affords them a lot of victory scenarios. As you said, maybe they discover things could bring her up to a mid-tier level, but (from their perspective), why invest the time into a character who they don't feel that they can push nearly as far in the competitive arena. I think that in order to compete, we Samus players have to develop her metagame to a place where we have viable play options against each character, discover new techs, or hope that she gets serious buffs in subsequent patches. Just some thoughts on that.

How do you guys feel against playing other top tiers? (Diddy, Ness, Yoshi, Rosalina, ZSS, Luigi)

Diddy - I tend to go even vs great diddys, the biggest struggle i have in the MU is getting back down to the ground, he can put out a lot of aerials so i tend to retreat to the ledge, oh and his SH Fair is amazing. I find he struggles to kill pre 130% outside of F Smash, or a severely staled up throw to combo in to up air. Fair is good for beating out his monkey flip, so we can really pressure him off stage.

Ness - He has really good aerial priority, can make up percent differences very quickly if he lands 1 pk fire, that back throw to punish a whiffed f smash or up b at high percents, has a way to absorb our Charge Shot, and finally is small. I'd defnitely say we're at a disadvantage, however he has limited range so i find zair and missile zoning to be pretty effective in the MU, and if we get him off stage a simple bomb to cover a jump to the ledge will force him to up b so we can get run off dairs or charge shots. Difficult but doable.

Yoshi - Up B Oos, try to not get spiked

Rosalina - Short Hop city, Short hop CS/bair/nair/zair are all really good, shes light so she dies early, super missile spam stops luma shot and gives free time to charge. I'd say its even because luma is still stupid strong and she has those amazing disjointed aerials, but an even MU overall. Unless its custom rosa, that **** is 10x harder

ZSS - Charge Shot beating paralyser and weight advantage are all we have going for us here, ZSS movement is insane and we really struggle to keep up, if we can avoid her Up B we have a good shot of outliving her, however she has the speed to dance circles around us

Luigi - Another even MU, we have a bunch of tools to keep him out, and we don't have to worry about his fireballs too much thanks to CS, however if he manages to get in hes putting on a ton of damage and its gonna be difficult to get him off you. Honestly in this MU i'm constantly just running betwwen either end of the stage because getting close to Luigi is just begging to get combo'd

 

[Eskelsen]

@ leiraD I agree entirely.
I also have experience with Diddys, MVD shows up to the same local I go to and he really is no joke. I personally struggle against Diddy, but I can see this match up being 50/50, for the sole reason that our edge guard game is really strong against him.
Diddy and Sheik need to be priority characters that we focus on learning to beat along with the other top characters, especially Sheik.
I'm not sure how far this will take us as Samus mains, but more often then not match-up inexperience can really work in our favor, since we are not playing a very popular character.

Edit: when I get some time I'll write down my thoughts and findings on Diddy a little more extensively.

 

[leiraD]

Diddy - I tend to go even vs great diddys, the biggest struggle i have in the MU is getting back down to the ground, he can put out a lot of aerials so i tend to retreat to the ledge, oh and his SH Fair is amazing. I find he struggles to kill pre 130% outside of F Smash, or a severely staled up throw to combo in to up air. Fair is good for beating out his monkey flip, so we can really pressure him off stage.

Ness - He has really good aerial priority, can make up percent differences very quickly if he lands 1 pk fire, that back throw to punish a whiffed f smash or up b at high percents, has a way to absorb our Charge Shot, and finally is small. I'd defnitely say we're at a disadvantage, however he has limited range so i find zair and missile zoning to be pretty effective in the MU, and if we get him off stage a simple bomb to cover a jump to the ledge will force him to up b so we can get run off dairs or charge shots. Difficult but doable.

Yoshi - Up B Oos, try to not get spiked

Rosalina - Short Hop city, Short hop CS/bair/nair/zair are all really good, shes light so she dies early, super missile spam stops luma shot and gives free time to charge. I'd say its even because luma is still stupid strong and she has those amazing disjointed aerials, but an even MU overall. Unless its custom rosa, that **** is 10x harder

ZSS - Charge Shot beating paralyser and weight advantage are all we have going for us here, ZSS movement is insane and we really struggle to keep up, if we can avoid her Up B we have a good shot of outliving her, however she has the speed to dance circles around us

Luigi - Another even MU, we have a bunch of tools to keep him out, and we don't have to worry about his fireballs too much thanks to CS, however if he manages to get in hes putting on a ton of damage and its gonna be difficult to get him off you. Honestly in this MU i'm constantly just running betwwen either end of the stage because getting close to Luigi is just begging to get combo'd

Ness, Rosalina, ZSS: Totally Agree

Diddy: I find I often get caught in monkey flip when he alternates between kick and cg on stage. Any advice on that? Other than that, I feel pretty much the same.

Luigi: I find I often have a slight advantage against luigi. Obviously, his combo game, kill options, and damage output are really good, but I think he really struggles against us off stage. I actually give Sammy that match-up 55/45.

Yoshi: How do you deal with campy Yoshi play? I typically try to power shield the eggs until I have a charge shot saved up to push through the eggs. Any other way to play that?

Thoughts are appreciated from everyone.

 

[KayJay]

Zair destroys Yoshi's up B egg and hits Yoshi afterwards.

 

[Hark17ball]

Any advice for good Falcos? The match up is so foreign to me since I rarely face him. All of his moves/ranges etc surprise me due to inexperience.

 

[leiraD]

Zair destroys Yoshi's up B egg and hits Yoshi afterwards.

Oh, true!

Any advice for good Falcos? The match up is so foreign to me since I rarely face him. All of his moves/ranges etc surprise me due to inexperience.

Forward smash goes farther than you think it will
His laser range is shorter than fox's and wont connect if you're fully cross-stage
If he recovers low, he's very easy to meteor with dair or stage spike with bair
Obviously, careful with charge shots and missiles because of his reflector. Its tempting to forgo those options all together, but keep them coming and just shield/dodge/jump over the reflections.

Those are the only things coming to mind at the moment. Anyone else wanting to chime in?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Some things I've learned this past week:
N-air and d-air cannot safely cross up yoshi's shield. Yoshi's down-B is fast and absurdly large bordering on unfair hitbox and I'm still mystified at how that works out of shield so well but it definitely can. Because his grab is slow, you might as well attack from the front.
If Rosalina has luma, and she tries to do a simple ledge get up, the hitstun from luma extends the duration of your move, making it easier to land an attack in the 1-frame vulnerability window. Our best move for this is up-tilt, 4 active frames.

 

[Hark17ball]

Yeah that FSmash was incredibly deceptive. Was lining up attacks and getting hit....weirded me out. I'll have to practice against him a little more.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Vyrnx]

Any advice for the Toon Link MU? I know it isn't the toughest but I still struggle a bit with it.

It's tough the get in a good dash attack to start combos because of his projectiles. Also, when I do get one in, he is very tough to combo reliably because of his lightweight and small frame.

He seems somewhat easy to camp, but I can't for the life of me land an fsmash on him when I'm trying to punish a roll. I'm left with dsmash, which kinda sucks and is easy to miss.

Edit: Also just a general Samus question. Is it safe to use a falling dair on a grounded opponent below you? I see Samus players do this a lot but it seems like it is very easy to punish if the opponent shields. Right now I tend to use a falling uair, or just try to land without attacking from above.

 

[Afro Smash]

Any advice for good Falcos? The match up is so foreign to me since I rarely face him. All of his moves/ranges etc surprise me due to inexperience.

Here's some matches I had Vs. a FG Falco and then a friend of mine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2j2ILuFmZ4

• His Jab is frame 2 and has good range, be careful up close
• Jump away from up throw up air at high percents, don't risk your airdodge being read
• He jumps really high whilst airborne, be sure to take this in to account whilst edgeguarding
• DI away from his Down Throw and tech roll away if you can
• Full Hop Fast Fall Zair beats Laser spam, they also don't extend the range of FD
• His F Smash is strong and also has deceptively good range, be wary
• Back Throw is a kill move at high percents
• His Fair still has one hitbox after he lands, so be careful with your punish

 

[Xygonn]

Any advice for the Toon Link MU? I know it isn't the toughest but I still struggle a bit with it.

It's tough the get in a good dash attack to start combos because of his projectiles. Also, when I do get one in, he is very tough to combo reliably because of his lightweight and small frame.

He seems somewhat easy to camp, but I can't for the life of me land an fsmash on him when I'm trying to punish a roll. I'm left with dsmash, which kinda sucks and is easy to miss.

Edit: Also just a general Samus question. Is it safe to use a falling dair on a grounded opponent below you? I see Samus players do this a lot but it seems like it is very easy to punish if the opponent shields. Right now I tend to use a falling uair, or just try to land without attacking from above.

Samus has a special dair. The end lag is relatively short (11 frames) and she falls slowly. So if you hit near the top of the opponent it autocancels and is mostly safe on crossup. This is different than most characters with a meaty dair. Even if you do suffer the end lag (if you fast fall) it's only 20 frames, which isn't horrible, but is nowhere close to safe.

Compare with the popular diddy, who has 20 frames until the autocancel window, falls too fast to hit that window and has 28 frames of landing lag. Dair isn't a landing option for diddy. I talked about this in the "Smash Samus is bad for metroid" thread.

 

[Afro Smash]

Out of a SH Dair to your hearts content, very safe if you land behind them. Falling from above and Dairing is something I never recommend, it's slow on start up so it will usually be beaten out by a quicker move, and it can't autocancel. Instead using bombs to change momentum, airdodging to avoid attacks and fast falling with up air are all better options

Edit: I'll be updating OP soon

 

[Vyrnx]

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Hark17ball]

• Here's some matches I had Vs. a FG Falco and then a friend of mine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2j2ILuFmZ4
  
  

  • His Jab is frame 2 and has good range, be careful up close
  • Jump away from up throw up air at high percents, don't risk your airdodge being read
  • He jumps really high whilst airborne, be sure to take this in to account whilst edgeguarding
  • DI away from his Down Throw and tech roll away if you can
  • Full Hop Fast Fall Zair beats Laser spam, they also don't extend the range of FD
  • His F Smash is strong and also has deceptively good range, be wary
  • Back Throw is a kill move at high percents
  • His Fair still has one hitbox after he lands, so be careful with your punish

  Afro you are the MAN! Thanks for the vids. i don't move nearly as smooth as you do...if I can increase my speed I'll be better off. When I'm home from work I'll watch the vids closer, but this is a huge help thanks so much!

 

[RoachCake]

• His F Smash is strong and also has deceptively good range, be wary

Adding that his F-smash if spaced properly can also hit you on the ledge.

 

[Vyrnx]

What do we do against rush down characters like Falcon and Fox?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Falcon, fox you have to pay very careful attention to when they fall over and hit the stage. Because of their particular fast-faller physics they often don't land on their feet, instead they are forced to tech. It can be a bit tricky at first to hunt for tech chases (or failed techs as it may be), you have to know the moves that produce them and the ranges at which they work that way but once you do it becomes a much more interesting, and even fun match. The good thing about "rushdown" characters is almost any move in Samus' arsenal can make them fall on their face. Jab2, sour-spot f-smash, sourspot b-air, f-tilt, n-air, d-smash even f-air and z-air. Ideally you want a combo starter like dash attack at close range and/or a charge shot as follow up (grab too but it's risky).
Here are some examples of what you have to pay attention to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes#t=269
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3KGQEYaUt4#t=577

On the topic of falco's jab: it's actually a really good jab despite the flak that character gets. Up-air does not break it, you can DI out or above (much harder than out) but actually breaking it and getting a punish is not possible from my experience.