Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[Hapajin]

How do you guys think the matchup against Lucas will be? Assuming he's fairly similar to his Brawl counterpart (based solely on footage) with Smash 4 mechanics, what kind matchup will Samus have against him?

 

[leiraD]

Just based on how Samus typically fares in the ness match-up, I'd say probably not too good for Samus.

 

[Zaprong]

Ness is really easy to bait.

His side smash is punishable with charge shot if he reflects a missile and if he uses Down B missiles will eat him so Ness isnt as hard, not only that, Samus can DI from attacks very easily thanks to her floatiNess, he also has a hard time punishing our recoveries, (specially Zair) because of the weird double jump momentum Ness has.

 

[LIQUID12A]

What's the general consensus on the Robin matchup?

I had a match marathon with one of the better Robin players on the boards tonight, winning only once(mostly stemming from my own inexperience), but I did notice some things. Charge Shot appears to beat out most of Robin's projectiles at full charge and works for punishing Elthunder spam. Probably a subjective stance on the player's part, but in his own words:

It's just such a pain to deal with. It's absurdly powerful, does massive shield damage, and you can charge it up and fire it very quickly. If I leave you alone for a moment, you'll get a fully charged blast ready to fire at me, and if you have that, I have to constantly dance around to try and not leave myself too vulnerable. The mere threat of it alone forces me to play cautiously, and if I mess up at all, I get blasted. This is especially bad for Robin, as I simply don't have the tools to defend myself, or to apply the necessary pressure to keep you from charging it constantly. And it gets even worse on stages like Final Destination, where there's nowhere to run and nowhere to land safely... It's just really mentally exhausting to manage.

Apart from that, missiles deter Robin from charging tomes on platforms to an extent, but used carelessly will more often than not leave an Arcfire in your face or get you hit by a Levin Sword.

Charge Shot is a powerful tool in the MU, but I'd like to hear from those of you with more experience.

I'll post a winning and losing video tomorrow just to hear more feedback.

 

[Zaprong]

I have a friend who mains Robin and I think he is better than Nairo's.

The match can be very campy for both characters, I mean, while it is true that CS beats Robin's projectiles, it is also true that Robin can perfect shield it from that distance.

Samus can spike Robin quite easily, but Robin can outwall us if we use missiles while saving the charge shot, and both chars know that going close is very risky for both since Robin and samus share this common trait of capitalizing from projectiles because going in might leave them open.

I'd say this is 51-49 for Robin, really really close MU if you want me to be honest

 

[LIQUID12A]

Stages also factor in this MU heavily I think. As said in the quote, no platforms reduces Robin's options for fleeing. Free reign to use missiles and pressure with CS. Getting in close leaves both characters open, I found myself punishing things like wind jab just as much as he would punish a whiffed dash attack.

If it's really that close then, well, I should work on improving my Samus.

Videos:

(winning match)

(one of many losing matches)

 

[Xygonn]

Since everyone is equally ignorant, I am not at a disadvantage right now. It will be hilarious to read this thread in a few months:

First impressions of MUs vs. New Characters:

Ryu: 70:30 Samus advantage. We dominate this MU. He is pretty big, a fast faller, and doesn't have much range. Zair eats him for breakfast. He is combo fodder. He is terrible at threatening the space below him, only further making uair deadly. He seems to be slower (run, walk, airspeed) than us so we can play keep away to our heart's content. He's like a terrible mix of Ganon and Little Mac. His aerial moves mostly have garbage range except for his kick. Hadoken is arguably worse than homing missiles. Really terrible projectile that we can take advantage of. He is too slow to get anything out of it on hit too. He doesn't get a grab out of it like Luigi. He has some good MUs on the roster, but I think Samus is damn near a hard counter to Ryu. You can almost wall him out with bombs too because he is so slow. He doesn't even have specials that can speed up his approach like Ganon.

Roy: 55:45 Samus slight advantage or even. Roy has to get close to kill us and doesn't have great tools to do it with. Like ryu, he is pretty tall, kinda heavy, combo fodder. Has slightly better tools for punishing us. His usmash will punish whiffed upb. Big strong hitboxes on that one. He's got a lot of combo potential, so I don't want to judge him too harshly (I suppose the same could be said of Ryu, but he can barely even touch us). I've actually lost to Roy. I haven't lost to a single Ryu on FG.

Lucas: 50:50 Close to even. Lucas is pretty damn cool. He gets two fairs out of a full jump that both threaten us, which is kinda annoying. Because his pk fire doesn't linger, it's much easier to punish than ness'. He combos us OK and like Roy can punish a whiffed upb with his ludicrous usmash. His dsmash is pretty strong. He has a smallish hitbox so that hurts us in the matchup. His PKT2 is less dangerous than ness', which is nice, but you really shouldn't be getting hit by PKT2 (ness has some decent setups with the tail of his pkt1 but with lucas it moves so slow I don't know that he can get hitstun on you then PKT2). His stick is faster than ness' bat but the reflect multiplier seems to be lower.

 

[Hark17ball]

Stages also factor in this MU heavily I think. As said in the quote, no platforms reduces Robin's options for fleeing. Free reign to use missiles and pressure with CS. Getting in close leaves both characters open, I found myself punishing things like wind jab just as much as he would punish a whiffed dash attack.

If it's really that close then, well, I should work on improving my Samus.

Videos:

(winning match)

(one of many losing matches)

Only saw the first 2 min (on route home from work to watch rest) You tend to roll and fire off Charge shot way to much. Don't worry tho I used to do it as well. You should really check out DungeonMasters thread of knowledge. Along with Xygonns guide. Rolling is something you don't want to do with her. Instead us SHAD (Short Hop Air Dodge). Soooo many things come from it.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yeah ryu, he's going to be a good character, I feel he will have a very positive matchup against Sheik, just given his up-tilts alone, which may mean he's picked up by almost everyone who plays competitively. His combo window is actually not that big, you can see this in training mode trying for the up-tilt->CS. His focus attack seems to a hard punish on anyone who likes to string - not true combo - aka Sheik, Mario, Fox. At first pass so long as we're solid in our timing it just doesn't work on Samus. We're floaty and able to escape many of his light attack starters.
Very important to note: DP does not snap the ledge, much like little mac's up-B, so d-smash, u-tilt, stage graze CS to your heart's content.
Roy is the combo swordsman in this game. He has a lot of true confirms, particularly out of his d-throw (I managed a 50 damage one....) his short range and our floatyness means we're less vulnerable than many others. I don't feel as of today we suffer as much in the priority battle with hitboxes compared to lucina/marth, but that's day 1.
Unfortunately Xygonn, my opinion is unchanged on regular missiles being "worst projectile in the game". Hadoken can come out of many true combos at low percent (low mid-kick -> hadoken) and Ryu is unpublishable, he falls out of the animation automatically on impact. Homing missile at close range and you eat f-smash/grab 9 times out of 10.
There's also more bias, and I feel no hope of ever seeing grounded meteor teching removed from the game, in ryu's moveset. The "king of combos" has a d-air which you'll notice specifically does not meteor onstage. So it's a deliberate design decision to not have guaranteed confirms from Samus up-tilt and d-air. Sakurai is an @^&*($@! I'm still very angry from this patch.

 

[Xygonn]

Yeah ryu, he's going to be a good character, I feel he will have a very positive matchup against Sheik, just given his up-tilts alone, which may mean he's picked up by almost everyone who plays competitively. His combo window is actually not that big, you can see this in training mode trying for the up-tilt->CS. His focus attack seems to a hard punish on anyone who likes to string - not true combo - aka Sheik, Mario, Fox. At first pass so long as we're solid in our timing it just doesn't work on Samus. We're floaty and able to escape many of his light attack starters.
Very important to note: DP does not snap the ledge, much like little mac's up-B, so d-smash, u-tilt, stage graze CS to your heart's content.
Roy is the combo swordsman in this game. He has a lot of true confirms, particularly out of his d-throw (I managed a 50 damage one....) his short range and our floatyness means we're less vulnerable than many others. I don't feel as of today we suffer as much in the priority battle with hitboxes compared to lucina/marth, but that's day 1.
Unfortunately Xygonn, my opinion is unchanged on regular missiles being unchanged as "worst projectile in the game". Hadoken can come out of many true combos at low percent (low mid-kick -> hadoken) and Ryu is unpublishable, he falls out of the animation automatically on impact. Homing missile at close range and you eat f-smash/grab 9 times out of 10.
There's also more bias, and I feel no hope of ever seeing grounded meteor teching removed from the game, in ryu's moveset. The "king of combos" has a d-air which you'll notice specifically does not meteor onstage. So it's a deliberate design decision to not have guaranteed confirms from Samus up-tilt and d-air. Sakurai is an @^&*($@! I'm still very angry from this patch.

I agree that Ryu is good against a lot of the top tiers because FA kills a lot of their single attack aerial game (especially cpt. falcon). We eat through it with fair, uair, zair, upb, and if timed right nair. I guess I shouln't say Ryu is bad in general, but I think he will have massive issues with zoning characters. He's like an anti rushdown. He might be a GREAT secondary for samus mains.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Agreed Xygonn, particularly if you want to learn another giant combo tree filled with narrow-range-but-total-murder.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Depending on fighting game, Ryu has always had issues with zoners anyway.

Can't threaten from afar without meter in UMVC3, SF4 and it's updates and SFXT.

And the lack of Final Smashes in serious play hurts Ryu a lot here.

EDIT:

Had a marathon against a friend of mine using Roy, and I'll say that the MU is even. Roy can close distance pretty quickly, but missiles force him to stop and block. You're in big trouble if on the edge since his charged B will murder you unless you Zair him to stop it. FD stages give Samus a massive advantage in the MU, platforms help Roy a lot but also allow Samus to do Uair shenanigans. Roy's most glaring flaw is his recovery, so a simple gimp will kill a Roy off a lot of the time.

Will post video to supplement these claims/request feedback.

EDIT 2:

Videos available here.

Xygonn, I accepted your friend request, send the replay and I will upload it whenever I can.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Hello there. I have been invited by DungeonMaster in the competitive characters thread. And I wanted to ask again: Is Dash attack, into Up Air into Fair a true combo?

 

[leiraD]

Hello there. I have been invited by DungeonMaster in the competitive characters thread. And I wanted to ask again: Is Dash attack, into Up Air into Fair a true combo?

There's a narrow percentage range against certain characters where it is, but not usually.

 

[E.Lopez]

Speaking about the Ness MU again:

My cousin and I played a bunch of local friendlies last night, and he's getting better and better with Ness. There's one thing that's been giving me trouble, and I see it in the video @ Afro Smash posted in the videos thread: https://youtu.be/zISaj6SjRVw at 2:22. When Ness starts juggling with a constant barrage of PKT, I have trouble even getting back to the stage. I air dodge, I fastfall, but he keeps hitting me every time, basically racking up free damage. Not sure what I can do about it.

Also, Ness' dash attack is so strong! Large and multi-hit, launching upward. I'm getting better at shielding it and attacking OOS though.

 

[Xygonn]

Speaking about the Ness MU again:

My cousin and I played a bunch of local friendlies last night, and he's getting better and better with Ness. There's one thing that's been giving me trouble, and I see it in the video @ Afro Smash posted in the videos thread: https://youtu.be/zISaj6SjRVw at 2:22. When Ness starts juggling with a constant barrage of PKT, I have trouble even getting back to the stage. I air dodge, I fastfall, but he keeps hitting me every time, basically racking up free damage. Not sure what I can do about it.

Also, Ness' dash attack is so strong! Large and multi-hit, launching upward. I'm getting better at shielding it and attacking OOS though.

All things Samus are solved with uair. So it is with pkt1 unless he hits you in the head with it.

 

[leiraD]

What Xugonn said. Your uair is multihit, so it'll just neutralize the pkt1.

 

[E.Lopez]

Wow, I should have thought of that! Uair is wonderful indeed, I will be sure to use it next time.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Hello there. I have been invited by DungeonMaster in the competitive characters thread. And I wanted to ask again: Is Dash attack, into Up Air into Fair a true combo?

Yep @ hypersonicJD , as @ leiraD said, there's a narrow window on that one, all details in the combo thread stickied in this forum. In general you want to get really familiar with doing up-air -> X where X is often up-air again and f-air, b-air depending on how you hit the character model. The combo thread is huge and so a lot of information gets hidden in it, but basically you have much more control over the combo than your opponent does and how you land the up-air determines where they pop out. If they are under your spin axis they are going to pop out in the direction of the spin axis. If they are above the spin axis, they are going to pop out at a 90 degree angle from the spin axis. It takes a fair bit of practice and muscle memory for your inputs to flow into instantaneous decisions of going from up-air to say f-air or b-air. Landing d-air, CS, you need to know percents as the windows are even more narrow than f-air.

For the OP some stuff I've picked up the hard way:
Ness' bat reflects projectiles on the backswing. He can be facing the other direction, do his f-smash, and your CS can be reflected in your face. Yes I'm an unlucky SOB.
You can actually grab Ness out of pkt2. Not as crazy risky as it sounds.
Peach's f-air will always beat out d-air. It doesn't look like that swing has priority, it really looks like you can d-air her out of it, but nope, Don't try and trade, you will lose.
Megama update: I fought a really amazing megaman last evening, unfortunately under terrible lag conditions for 90% of the fight (which made him look super-human and me look like an idiot because I couldn't combo, couldn't SH-AD as it kept making me roll, and he could read on reaction all my attacks and tech like a god - that changed when lag cleared but anyhow, for glory! yeah right...). He was doing an advanced carefully spaced pellet pattern of 1-2 -> SH n-air - 3. Basic f-tilt, even angled fairs poorly because the 3rd pellet causes knock down. When you see this pattern - do not f-tilt. If he spaces it just right, you can't beat it. You need SH-AD to break the spacing and z-air reset. To avoid my CS hunting his landing lag he would up-B and go into leaf shield and just dance in and around on rush. You need the z-air knockdown under these conditions to poke through the leaf-shield and f-air works as well on mixup. Man those matches were ugly...

 

[NamelessHunter]

I'm having trouble with ROB. Any advice?

He seems to have a counter for everything.

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ Afro Smash I realize you're competing and all but you make want to update the OP with all the info that has been added since um... April... *poke* *poke*

The for glory Rob pattern is lasers, spit gyro out, n-air, n-air some more, hit confirm fair, fair and if you roll d-smash. If they fear CS whirly reflector.
Just don't roll through him, ever. His d-smash is one of the fastest in the game and has too much coverage.
The lasers + gyro zoning should be countered by FJ FF z-air. When you get full CS you want to SH fire it. It goes through the gyro so long as the gyro is in mid air. No standing CS. Don't do it.
Let the gyro stay out. If you shield gyro, it disappears and he instantly gets it back. Grab the gyro with dash attacks or during airdodge. Super-missile -> gyro toss -> CS is a shield break.
You can challenge any of his aerials with up-air except d-air at max range. ROB d-air has a truly insane hitbox.
The reflector is only able to reflect at the start of the animation, and you can head-shot him if you're worried, so once again, SH that CS. ROB has full control over when to end it, he can make a short or a long version, this takes practice to understand how to combat. If you get stuck in it, DI to up and over his head and mash jump, you will fall out at mid/high percents.
Finally ROB's major weakness is that he gets comboed like no tomorrow. You shouldn't be simply trading hits 1-to-1 with him.
Learn the basic dash-attack combo tree and you can pick up 60+ damage out of two dash-attack confirms on him.
You actually want the ROB to get aggressive and break down their own zoning. Combos can be rage/depression inducing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3KGQEYaUt4#t=109

 

[leiraD]

I'm having trouble with ROB. Any advice?

He seems to have a counter for everything.

He's tall, so he's really easy to hit with zair. Us the hitstun from zair to chain into a dash attack, and since he's heavy, you can probably work that into uair>uair>upb at early percents. Hold onto a full charge shot and use it or missiles often enough early on to condition him to use his side-b. His side-b works as a reflector in the early frames, but if you're patient after he commits to it, you can wait like halfway into the move and then peg him with the charge shot. Be wary of his deceivingly quick nair, and pick up and catch/hold onto his top as often as you can.

Here's Chozox vs a ROB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BTiN6JPjnM

Hope that helps!

 

[Afro Smash]

Edit: didn't fully read DMs post

And yeah my bad DM I'll update tonight

 

[NamelessHunter]

He's tall, so he's really easy to hit with zair. Us the hitstun from zair to chain into a dash attack, and since he's heavy, you can probably work that into uair>uair>upb at early percents. Hold onto a full charge shot and use it or missiles often enough early on to condition him to use his side-b. His side-b works as a reflector in the early frames, but if you're patient after he commits to it, you can wait like halfway into the move and then peg him with the charge shot. Be wary of his deceivingly quick nair, and pick up and catch/hold onto his top as often as you can.

Here's Chozox vs a ROB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BTiN6JPjnM

Hope that helps!

Thank you. One of my biggest weaknesses as a Samus main is my poor zair use, and this appears to be a matchup where that is especially bad of me. Looks like I'll be working on that next.

 

[leiraD]

Thank you. One of my biggest weaknesses as a Samus main is my poor zair use, and this appears to be a matchup where that is especially bad of me. Looks like I'll be working on that next.

The more you start you incorporate it into your moveset, the more you'll realize how useful it is. Give it a shot.

 

[NamelessHunter]

The more you start you incorporate it into your moveset, the more you'll realize how useful it is. Give it a shot.

I know zair is a great tool. It's just difficult for me to break my Smash64 habits. Gonna force myself to start using it though. I've held off way too long. Guess it's one of those moves that's good enough for me to just use exclusively until I get it, so off to for glory were I can get away with that kind of BS.

 

[Afro Smash]

Yeah I think our zair is one of the best moves in the game, so safe but sets up for tech chases and strings in to dash attack/grab for damage, difficult but essential to learn imo

 

[Xygonn]

I'm having trouble with ROB. Any advice?

He seems to have a counter for everything.

In the old thread my advice was switch to villager. I'm better with Samus now, but since villager is my #2, I still use that advice against a good ROB. That said, SH CS is super important to shoot CS over the Gyro and even his reflector. Everyone already mentioned zair is a great tool. Dash attack spam isn't that bad as long as you cross up, plus you'll often grab or clank his gyro if he tries to counter it that way. His recovery is very good but he can't threaten and recover at the same time. Bomb gimps work well at higher percents where he needs to use a lot of fuel to recover. You can shield grab fair if he hits you high on your shield. You can also shield grab bair and dair very safely. Our new usmash is very reliable against ROB because of his tall and wide hitbox.

 

[NamelessHunter]

So it's not just me then? It really is a horrible match up?

 

[DungeonMaster]

So it's not just me then? It really is a horrible match up?

Opinions are divided, I personally quite like the matchup and believe Samus has significant advantage. I also spent over a hundred hours in training mode kicking around a rob target to build a combo thread so I know his physics totally intuitively now, that may factor...

 

[Afro Smash]

I'd say it's pretty even, but immediately goes in our favour whenever he doesn't have access to his Gyro

 

[leiraD]

Opinions are divided, I personally quite like the matchup and believe Samus has significant advantage. I also spent over a hundred hours in training mode kicking around a rob target to build a combo thread so I know his physics totally intuitively now, that may factor...

There are a lot of Samus matchups that I dread (mario, fox, pikachu, etc...), I like this matchup too. Usmash actually works, uair and zair eat rob, and its really easy to get in upboos. I think we do really well against rob off stage as well since his recovery is slow and he has no hitbox on his upb.

 

[Xygonn]

So it's not just me then? It really is a horrible match up?

I think those of us that play a more defensive Samus have a harder time with his projectile wall. It's not often Samus is the one that is forced to approach in the neutral. I just got rekt by a ROB on fg this morning. I took him to 60% on his second stock the first game, he two stocked me the second at 167% the second (he was extremely cautious and I couldn't get upb). I switched to villager, pocketed his gyro and spammed him with slingshot. Salt filled his body and he left.

 

[NamelessHunter]

I'd say it's pretty even, but immediately goes in our favour whenever he doesn't have access to his Gyro

That gyro gives me fits. I was doing some practice games, and I found it goes from very hard to very easy if I can grab his gyro. Gryo and missles work super well together. Use missles for damage, and use gyro to keep ROB off me, and slowly work them to the edge.

If I can't get that gyro though. :'(

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Samus' out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Samus. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Samus match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/409970/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[Zylach]

Hello Samus boards! I know I've spoken to a few of you here but for the rest that aren't familiar with me, I'm Zylach, a Zelda main that's been second-ing Samus on and off since release. I mained her back in the day in melee and dropped her in brawl. Now I'm back with her and might find myself switching back to Samus ultimately as the metagame develops even further. I'm a regular on the Zeldaboards MU thread and, now that I feel really confident with Samus, I feel like I can also add some knowledge here as well I know I've missed out on a lot of the character discussions but I can pick up where you guys are right now and, if anyone wants an extra opinion on what's already been covered, feel free to ask. Most recently, I pulled my Samus out at a local Milwaukee tournament, which I also posted in the Samus tourney winnings thread here if you guys want more details, to win grandfinals (I went 0-2 with my Zelda only to pull out Samus and go 3-0 with her to win 1st place). I'm still working on polishing my Samus and have found all the tools in the Samus boards more than helpful in doing that.

Introductions aside, if I'm reading this right, the current discussion is on ROB so I'll offer some opinions if you guys don't mind. ROB is one of my least favorite MU's with any character as he is so good at zoning and his projectile game is so safe. I'm used to using FW to snipe opponents that use laggy projectiles but ROB is just unpunishable. What's especially good for Samus is her zair that outranges him and can catch him directly out of a SH because of his height. I've often had trouble against ROB as Zelda when he approaches with nair because his landing lag is so short, he can follow up before Zelda can do anything. As Samus, her jab is fast enough to catch him before he can followup meaning Samus forces him to approach her and can actually capitalize him approaching her. Because of his weight, Samus can juggle him fairly easily as well meaning her grab gets her more reward on ROB than many other characters since she can followup from a dthrow with uair or fair strings where floaty characters like Rosa can't be hit by much of anything after a dthrow.

One of my biggest problems when facing ROB is gyro but I saw that some other folks were suggesting SH CS so it can go over the gyro and picking it up stops him from using it at all. Samus isn't quite as stunted by picking it up and holding on to it for such a long time as other characters though thanks to the fact that she can play keep away with projectiles while keeping hold of it. Granted, it stops us from using zair without dropping it. My only other problem is how deceptively fast ROB can be at times. I've had jab 1 punished by several of his attacks including his own jab 1 OoS, dtilt, and even dsmash.

ROB doesn't have truly reliable kill setups besides dthrow>uair but that won't kill certain characters due to being too heavy to die at reasonable percents and being sent too high by dthrow when uair would actually kill them. The same goes for floaty characters who go too high from dthrow even at 80-90%. Samus is kind of in the same boat but benefits more from tech chases than ROB does as CS is most reliable as a tech chase and kills fairly early depending on staleness, rage, and the opponent's location on stage. Other than this, Samus has a quick and deadly bair that can punish several of ROB's aerials like dair, nair (when not landed with), and uair. It's a lot more difficult to punish fair because of its IASA frames allowing ROB to fair again very very quickly. Furthermore, Samus can SHAD through a ROB usmash (his most common hard read tool for kills) and bair him before she lands.

Ultimately, this MU feels fairly even to me. ROB does a little better than Samus up close but he is generally outsped by Samus' jab 1 which she will be using often to keep the opponent away from her. Samus is outcamped by ROB unless she gets control of his gyro when the tables turn and Samus is able to outcamp ROB. Furthermore, Samus' zair is a great spacing/pressure tool that ROB doesn't have an answer for besides shielding it. Shield it too much though, and he can get his shield wrecked by a fully charged CS.

50:50Default
Dunnno about ROB's customs so I won't give a score on that. Dunno if the Samus boards prefer having scores or not but it's habit for me to give scores lol.

 

[S.P.A.D.]

That D-Smash is incredibly quick, and does a good number of hits but does absolutely piss poor kill. Speaking from experience surviving to over 200% as Jigglypuff in a small tourney offline.

I feel it depends on who gets momentum first, sorta like a Samus mirror. We just have a really good thing for punishing R.O.B. with Z-Air. Other than that I have nothing else to add. I don't fight many tourney level players so I can't offer any advice...

 

[Squaddle]

Can we talk about the villager matchup? As it is I think it's very unfun, and I really hope there's a more reliable way of dealing with defensive villagers than just going to time, because I haven't found one yet... and I'm really impatient and can't be doing with waiting them out.

So zair goes through their projectiles which is nice, and proper spacing lets it go through both a lloid and a slingshot. Villager's bair is just a bit too fast and far reaching, though, to the point that you have to be perfect with you timing or it'll knock you out of the zair animation. Our tether grab also means that we don't have to wait out their tree, as we can safely grab them if they're trying to use the tree as cover to shield them while they spam projectiles. Morph ball bombs are unfortunately not as great of an edgeguarding tool as you'd hope, as one balloon will eat the bomb without affecting the villager, so I don't think it's really worth attempting to gimp their recovery unless they're stalling at the ledge.

Actually netting that KO is a pain, though, hence why so many of my matches with high-level villagers end in a stalemate. We can't ever really get close enough to f-smash or Up-B OoS, their aerials out-prioritize bair and up-air due to range, speed, and lingering hitboxes, recovery gimping isn't an option because of how safe balloon trip is, and Charge shot can either be pocketed or is flat out negated by even stale Lloids (WHY). Its just plain frustrating.

 

[Iddis]

Can we talk about the villager matchup? As it is I think it's very unfun, and I really hope there's a more reliable way of dealing with defensive villagers than just going to time, because I haven't found one yet... and I'm really impatient and can't be doing with waiting them out.

So zair goes through their projectiles which is nice, and proper spacing lets it go through both a lloid and a slingshot. Villager's bair is just a bit too fast and far reaching, though, to the point that you have to be perfect with you timing or it'll knock you out of the zair animation. Our tether grab also means that we don't have to wait out their tree, as we can safely grab them if they're trying to use the tree as cover to shield them while they spam projectiles. Morph ball bombs are unfortunately not as great of an edgeguarding tool as you'd hope, as one balloon will eat the bomb without affecting the villager, so I don't think it's really worth attempting to gimp their recovery unless they're stalling at the ledge.

Actually netting that KO is a pain, though, hence why so many of my matches with high-level villagers end in a stalemate. We can't ever really get close enough to f-smash or Up-B OoS, their aerials out-prioritize bair and up-air due to range, speed, and lingering hitboxes, recovery gimping isn't an option because of how safe balloon trip is, and Charge shot can either be pocketed or is flat out negated by even stale Lloids (WHY). Its just plain frustrating.

For the Lloid rocket after it starts flying a larger charge shot can go through it and hit a villager trying to run with, it can be a risk if they try pocket it though.

As for the edge since he has his balloons i just go for the meteor, it hits both balloons and the villager, maybe it could just hit the balloons if the timing is right but at that point the actual meteor would seem preferable.

I also try to approach and punish as they are blocking/dodging/pocketing a homing missile but that is just me.

 

[Squaddle]

For the Lloid rocket after it starts flying a larger charge shot can go through it and hit a villager trying to run with, it can be a risk if they try pocket it though.

As for the edge since he has his balloons i just go for the meteor, it hits both balloons and the villager, maybe it could just hit the balloons if the timing is right but at that point the actual meteor would seem preferable.

I also try to approach and punish as they are blocking/dodging/pocketing a homing missile but that is just me.

Thing is, villager's attack lag ends before the lloid even begins to move. When it actually gets moving they'll have more than enough time to react to the charge shot, so there really shouldn't ever be a time when you try and attack through the lloid unless you've already baited the pocket with a homing missile...

I guess I could try chasing after them with dair, though its kind of risky having villager above you with the bowling ball, but better than nothing I suppose. In general the matchup just feels really terrible, lol.